Dark Cloak and NB tanking.

Jeezye · April 2018

Haven't read through all comments, but I think choosing stealth or healing is just fine. If you actually play a proper tank nightblade in pvp, you will get jumped by tons of players with a **** load of effects so cloaking is no option anyways. Same for PvE tanking, since you lose aggro when stealthing.

I don't understand why every nightblade needs to be hammering on that cowardy cloak, I neither use this skill on my magblade nor my stamblade (in PvP!).

aeowulf · April 2018

@Jerkling

Many thanks for sharing

re the point about "and theses guys are god all knowing?! " & "also, where exactly do they say that?"

No, no one is all knowing there are many builds out there that have simply not been discovered yet & they say that on their build pages, under the 'this build is suitable for...' sentence.

If NB tanks were comparatively decent or at least as much fun as they were, you would see them in vet group finder. Same can be said for templar, sorc tanks, dk healers etc amongst many other class-roles. Summerset is looking like it will help some of these. Right now NB tanks are staring down 'non-class' fixes. What will the NB tank be likely to gain from Summerset?

-AE minor maim from shades that's reported to be not up 100% of the time.
-Dark cloak which is good.
-Strife probably leaving our skill bar (need to make space for cloak anyway) so 8% less healing received.
-Healing reduction on path.
-50% nerf in damage redction & duration reduction for bolstering, for a buff no one has needed in the last year, that will also reduce DPS whilst people pick it up from a potentially very risky place. More importantly, whilst horn exists, it won't get used anyway. It would need to be at least as good as horn to be used over it. It should probably give Major Slayer to people picking up the buff instead (with a suitably balanced duration & cooldown) as the change will need to entice people in to collect it. Or put minor stamina steal on any mobs stood in it, or something. DPS will not be attracted by buffs that do not increase their DPS. This is why horn is loved.

NB tanks have a sustain issue. ZoS recognised this & tried to fix it last year, but it still means they have to slot a damaging assasination ability, that costs more to cast than the resources it will restore, that needs to hit a mob that will die in the next 2 seconds, that will give you resources after the mob died... Even if they had some sort of class based group utility, I doubt they would have the resources to cast it. Their sustain is really not tank friendly in the slightest.

I am foreseeing another year of no NB tanks at this rate

NyassaV · April 2018

As a tank there is literally no reason to use cloak... You loose aggro on everything the second you go into cloak

aeowulf · April 2018

We're talking about the new cloak

Shame, i loved the old cloak (where you didn't loose agro!)

Vercingetorix · April 2018

Dark Cloak doesn't need invisibility since Sap Tanks need to be SEEN in order to maintain their aggro. What it DOES need, however, is a much longer duration on the Minor Protection buff given so that a Sap Tank can use it as part of their tanking rotation without having it constantly fall off or be completely useless like it is currently on PTS. A duration of ~20 seconds would suffice given the high magicka cost - either that, or a lower duration with a reduced magicka cost.

exeeter702 · April 2018

NyassaV wrote: »

As a tank there is literally no reason to use cloak... You loose aggro on everything the second you go into cloak

Dark cloak no longer triggers invisibility, so threat loss will no longer be an issue.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Also nice that'd be in the actual healing skill line where it belongs.

Why does everyone keep saying this like it's commonplace?

Dragon's Blood and Arctic Winds are both tantamount to Dark Cloak on their respective class and are all located in the TANK skill line of those classes, not the Healer Skill Line so it makes very little sense for them to move it there.

Right, and Blur is an assassin skill line that is also used for tanking. I'm not really convinced Shadow is a 'Tank' skill line although I understand what you mean in the sense that the passives push that way (more health, more armor/sr on activation, etc). I can understand why many players will be upset to lose the cloak as a tank. My Argonian NB was a tank for a long time and I'm not sitting at the decision as well. Do I want to be able to cloak with him or tank with him? Its a very difficult choice. Malefic wreath on the other hand they complete did away with and I don't see why they couldn't have one tank morph and one healer morph on it. I understand the reason why you might want to utilize shadow passives for the purpose though, particularly on tanking so it is a tough call.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

Jeezye wrote: »

Haven't read through all comments, but I think choosing stealth or healing is just fine. If you actually play a proper tank nightblade in pvp, you will get jumped by tons of players with a **** load of effects so cloaking is no option anyways. Same for PvE tanking, since you lose aggro when stealthing.

I don't understand why every nightblade needs to be hammering on that cowardy cloak, I neither use this skill on my magblade nor my stamblade (in PvP!).

I reckon a nuisance PvP tank NB will prefer cloak because they can heal while in cloak and far more efficiently. I have run into many of these and their purpose is to pull off large swaths of players from the war at large. Think about Tower Farmers and the like.

GeorgeBlack · April 2018

To me it is evident now that these forums are filled with gamers that lack skill. They rly need to BiS and min/max in order to complete the easy PvE content of Eso. These gamers cannot complete PvE as a tank unless they create a whole new character and minmax everything only for that very narrow purpose.

It is also evident that these min maxers are the ones whose suggestions shape the game.
I dont play NB. Never liked the stealth/killer type.
But I do feel bad for those nightblades that with only one character full of motifs colours achievements and a name, cannot throw a medium/Bow/2h(dw) and PvP or Dps, and cannot throw a heavy/SnB, because their iconic stealth skill is now locked in a tanking morph.

Many said that making NB has stealth and a tankiny morph in a different skill would make them OP. Lol what a joke. They dont have the resources/ability slots to pull that off. What makes them OP is the Incap Strike, that for such a low cost it is LOADED with effects and a strong dmg.

Anyway.

efster · April 2018

The dark cloak change is annoying for me because I play all 3 roles on my NB -- in PVP, I solo heal, and cloak has been mandatory in my toolkit. But as a NB tank main, I will have to take the no-cloak morph. So I will have to change how I play as healer or remorph skills every time I switch between PVP and PVE.

HOWEVER I am in full support of the Dark Cloak change.

What we need from ZoS is the ability to remorph skills one at a time, not all at once.

What we don't need is people who don't even play the class demanding that ZoS reverse a much needed buff to NB tanks.

GeorgeBlack · April 2018

efster wrote: »

The dark cloak change is annoying for me because I play all 3 roles on my NB -- in PVP, I solo heal, and cloak has been mandatory in my toolkit. But as a NB tank main, I will have to take the no-cloak morph. So I will have to change how I play as healer or remorph skills every time I switch between PVP and PVE.

HOWEVER I am in full support of the Dark Cloak change.

What we need from ZoS is the ability to remorph skills one at a time, not all at once.

What we don't need is people who don't even play the class demanding that ZoS reverse a much needed buff to NB tanks.

Ok lad. Here is what you dont consider. You dont know how you will feel when you will have to move every time to change that morph. You will be annoyed every time, I know it.
Here's another thing you havent considered. How stuborn you are to "fully support" this bad idea to improve NB tanking, when there are countless skills to help INSTEAD of cloak.
Signed, another player of Eso, not necesseraly a NB. eD1t fOr PRofaNiTy

Much needed buff... where did I say not to go ahead with it... I said dont force ppl to choose stealth or heal.

efster · April 2018

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ok lad. Here is what you dont consider. You dont know how you will feel when you will have to move every time to change that morph. You will be annoyed every time, I know it.
Here's another thing you havent considered. How stuborn you are to "fully support" this bad idea to improve NB tanking, when there are countless skills to help INSTEAD of cloak.
Signed, another player of Eso, not necesseraly a NB. eD1t fOr PRofaNiTy

Much needed buff... where did I say not to go ahead with it... I said dont force ppl to choose stealth or heal.

Frist, not a "lad".

Second, how I'm going to feel about having to either respec every time or give up invisibility is none of your business.

Third, I am one of a handful of NB tanks with a vMoL hardmode clear (as offtank) so I daresay I have a little bit of an idea what I'm talking about when it comes to what is and isn't useful to a NB tank in endgame content. You don't even play a NB.

The ability to respec just one skill at a time instead of all of them would make the dilemma of choosing between cloak and heal completely irrelevant, which is why I will continue to stand by that suggestion.

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2018

efster wrote: »

The dark cloak change is annoying for me because I play all 3 roles on my NB -- in PVP, I solo heal, and cloak has been mandatory in my toolkit. But as a NB tank main, I will have to take the no-cloak morph. So I will have to change how I play as healer or remorph skills every time I switch between PVP and PVE.

HOWEVER I am in full support of the Dark Cloak change.

What we need from ZoS is the ability to remorph skills one at a time, not all at once.

What we don't need is people who don't even play the class demanding that ZoS reverse a much needed buff to NB tanks.

I wish we had the option to learn both morphs of the same skill.

GeorgeBlack · April 2018

efster wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ok lad. Here is what you dont consider. You dont know how you will feel when you will have to move every time to change that morph. You will be annoyed every time, I know it.
Here's another thing you havent considered. How stuborn you are to "fully support" this bad idea to improve NB tanking, when there are countless skills to help INSTEAD of cloak.
Signed, another player of Eso, not necesseraly a NB. eD1t fOr PRofaNiTy

Much needed buff... where did I say not to go ahead with it... I said dont force ppl to choose stealth or heal.

Frist, not a "lad".

Second, how I'm going to feel about having to either respec every time or give up invisibility is none of your business.

Third, I am one of a handful of NB tanks with a vMoL hardmode clear (as offtank) so I daresay I have a little bit of an idea what I'm talking about when it comes to what is and isn't useful to a NB tank in endgame content. You don't even play a NB.

The ability to respec just one skill at a time instead of all of them would make the dilemma of choosing between cloak and heal completely irrelevant, which is why I will continue to stand by that suggestion.

[Edited to remove bait]
You still support the idea of forcing NB to switch morph(s) every time they need to switch from NB to PvE tank.
There are PLENTY OF OTHER SKILLS TO REINFORCE NB TANKING.
Why do you want to mess with Cloak?

Why do you want to mess with Cloak? Answer that. The rest is egocentric noise

victoriana-blue · April 2018

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Also nice that'd be in the actual healing skill line where it belongs.

Why does everyone keep saying this like it's commonplace?

Dragon's Blood and Arctic Winds are both tantamount to Dark Cloak on their respective class and are all located in the TANK skill line of those classes, not the Healer Skill Line so it makes very little sense for them to move it there.

Right, and Blur is an assassin skill line that is also used for tanking. I'm not really convinced Shadow is a 'Tank' skill line although I understand what you mean in the sense that the passives push that way (more health, more armor/sr on activation, etc). I can understand why many players will be upset to lose the cloak as a tank. My Argonian NB was a tank for a long time and I'm not sitting at the decision as well. Do I want to be able to cloak with him or tank with him? Its a very difficult choice. Malefic wreath on the other hand they complete did away with and I don't see why they couldn't have one tank morph and one healer morph on it. I understand the reason why you might want to utilize shadow passives for the purpose though, particularly on tanking so it is a tough call.

That's because Wrobel only revealed the plan to shift Shadow to a tanking line in a Live last summer. iirc it's part of a larger change to make the other classes match the Warden set-up (of one heal, one dps, and one tank skill line), but it's a pretty recent shift and we're only a few patches into the transformation.

victoriana-blue · April 2018

efster wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Ok lad. Here is what you dont consider. You dont know how you will feel when you will have to move every time to change that morph. You will be annoyed every time, I know it.
Here's another thing you havent considered. How stuborn you are to "fully support" this bad idea to improve NB tanking, when there are countless skills to help INSTEAD of cloak.
Signed, another player of Eso, not necesseraly a NB. eD1t fOr PRofaNiTy

Much needed buff... where did I say not to go ahead with it... I said dont force ppl to choose stealth or heal.

Frist, not a "lad".

Second, how I'm going to feel about having to either respec every time or give up invisibility is none of your business.

Third, I am one of a handful of NB tanks with a vMoL hardmode clear (as offtank) so I daresay I have a little bit of an idea what I'm talking about when it comes to what is and isn't useful to a NB tank in endgame content. You don't even play a NB.

The ability to respec just one skill at a time instead of all of them would make the dilemma of choosing between cloak and heal completely irrelevant, which is why I will continue to stand by that suggestion.

Seconded, we really need a way to change one skill at a time like we can with CP. I'd even pay the full gold price every time, as long as I could easily swap between Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon without resetting 300+ skill points when I respec. This would solve my dps problems and the OPs cloaking problems in one fell swoop.

(I've only main-tanked nMoL, congrats on that clear! I can't imagine tanking vet MoL with an NB, main or off. XD)

Silver_Strider · April 2018

NB Tanks need several things to help them run much more effectively

1) Our resource management tools need to be looked at. As DPS, our sustain is alright as we can benefit from all of our sustain tools without issue but NB tanks aren't as lucky and as such I feel this could be solved by a few things

Siphoning Attacks needs to be updated to give more health/resources on Heavy Attacks. Tanks cannot LA as often as DPS to help break even with the initial cost of SA but it also doesn't grant any benefits to HA over LA, just the same flat value, meaning we get next to no benefit from Heavy attacking with SA up. Uping the gain on heavy attacks with SA would significantly help NB tank with resource sustain, especially with the upcoming nerfs to Strife and Path putting more stain on our resources than before.
Executioner passive needs to be changed. I'd prefer if it would reduce the cost of the next ability cast after an Assassination ability is used so that Tanks can benefit from it with Blur with a CD to prevent abuse but I'm open to anything that improve its current state to be more accessible to all role.
With the nerf to Path, I feel a cost reduction on it and morphs wouldn't be too outlandish to ask for. It's just as important to NB tanks/healers as it is to DPS and while I understand NB DPS is somewhat overperforming ATM, I don't see the logic in lowering the healing component on Refreshing Path, especially since its the utility morph. I'd prefer the healing component be left unchanged but if not, I'll settle for a cost reduction.

2) NB needs some group utility. Right now, we do decent offhealing but several classes can do that on par if not to greater effect than NBs and is often unnecessary to begin with. I've made a couple of suggestions already in other threads (Blur being a group evasion, Reaper's Mark increasing Execute Damage for the group, etc) but really anything that makes a NB an asset to the team, without oversteping boundries that make it mandatory or overly superior to another class in the same role, would be benefitial as well.

efster · April 2018

[Edited to remove baiting comment]

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Seconded, we really need a way to change one skill at a time like we can with CP. I'd even pay the full gold price every time, as long as I could easily swap between Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon without resetting 300+ skill points when I respec. This would solve my dps problems and the OPs cloaking problems in one fell swoop.

(I've only main-tanked nMoL, congrats on that clear! I can't imagine tanking vet MoL with an NB, main or off. XD)

Yeah, I already respec my CP and attributes (to add stam) every time I swap from heals/DPS to tank (the attribute swap is more because I have gotten lazy and like having a giant stam pool, not a real necessity) so it would be fab to be able to just change one skill.

My clears were pre-Morrowind, and with a fantastic bunch of people who deserve a lot of the credit.

aeowulf · April 2018

Silver_Strider wrote: »

NB Tanks need several things to help them run much more effectively

1) Our resource management tools need to be looked at. As DPS, our sustain is alright as we can benefit from all of our sustain tools without issue but NB tanks aren't as lucky and as such I feel this could be solved by a few things
Siphoning Attacks needs to be updated to give more health/resources on Heavy Attacks. Tanks cannot LA as often as DPS to help break even with the initial cost of SA but it also doesn't grant any benefits to HA over LA, just the same flat value, meaning we get next to no benefit from Heavy attacking with SA up. Uping the gain on heavy attacks with SA would significantly help NB tank with resource sustain, especially with the upcoming nerfs to Strife and Path putting more stain on our resources than before.

Executioner passive needs to be changed. I'd prefer if it would reduce the cost of the next ability cast after an Assassination ability is used so that Tanks can benefit from it with Blur with a CD to prevent abuse but I'm open to anything that improve its current state to be more accessible to all role.

With the nerf to Path, I feel a cost reduction on it and morphs wouldn't be too outlandish to ask for. It's just as important to NB tanks/healers as it is to DPS and while I understand NB DPS is somewhat overperforming ATM, I don't see the logic in lowering the healing component on Refreshing Path, especially since its the utility morph. I'd prefer the healing component be left unchanged but if not, I'll settle for a cost reduction.

2) NB needs some group utility. Right now, we do decent offhealing but several classes can do that on par if not to greater effect than NBs and is often unnecessary to begin with. I've made a couple of suggestions already in other threads (Blur being a group evasion, Reaper's Mark increasing Execute Damage for the group, etc) but really anything that makes a NB an asset to the team, without oversteping boundries that make it mandatory or overly superior to another class in the same role, would be benefitial as well.

I don't think SA has a place on NB tanks bar anymore - sad times. It is not tank friendly.

Executioner passive is not tank friendly either, & agree it needs to change. Personally I'd like it to proc on dodge (and be balanced wrt resource return) This would help NB tanks that use blur (assasination line) and take the edge off stamblades dodging out of AE's. It was recently broken (for about 6 months) and only about 2 NB's actually noticed. So yeah, it's pretty bad. OR it needs to proc on any NB damaging skill (path for example)

Path - shame, was only made better last year, now undoing the change. Wonder if they'd also undo the change to SA?

Strife - another NB tank useful (look at the passive) skill likely to go from our bars

Veiled Strike & blur need to swap places too (logically)

Aspect of Terror needs a tank morph if it's staying in that tree. Would probably change Manifestation of Terror so affected mobs (not players) are taunted to the caster for 4-8 seconds, atleast then they will run back to the tank. Right now they run away which is not tank-like at all.

Jerkling · April 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

I don't speak for the community, but I've seen a heck of a lot of discussions about what makes a good tank and I'm 100% confident that the consensus is "Does more than survive and hold aggro," emphasis on "good." I can dig up example discussions if you like.

And you might want to re-read your comment yourself: using "people" meant you were including not just the person you were replying to, but everyone who's been trying to make NB tanks work since U14.

then don't act like you do by putting me in the "the community vs whatever you think" spot.

and where exactly are we talking about what a "good" tank does? you don't even seem to understand what has been said as you come up with points for an argument that noone is involved in.

and i don't need to re-read what i wrote, i know what i said and what i meant by it since i am the one who wrote it. quoting "people" out of context and implying what i meant just proves that you in fact did not understand what's been said.

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Mmhm, and the utility skills & passives are what make DKs superior tanks. You said "what does tanking actually come down to? it's 3 things - keep agro on your target(s), stay on top of the mechanic, don't die. that's the things you need to be able to do as a tank and i don't see DKs outperforming any other class at any of those" and I was listing ways that the DKs are better at staying alive and minding mechanics, along with the group buffs.

the question never was what class the best tank is. it has been said that you can't do a consistent endgame NB tank or an NB tank at all, which is simply not true. and what i'm listing here are the 3 basic things you need to be able to do as a tank. what's so hard to understand about that? basic! and a DK is in no way outperforming any other class at the basics because those aren't things that are done with a class ability but with player skill, awareness and knowledge/experience.

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Honest question, what do you think NB tanks bring to that fight, or other fights? Because I look at my kit and think "lolno" - the veteran Domihaus fight is too mobile to use path or wall freely, we need to wear selfish gear to survive (and thereby lose out on useful things like ult gen), we can't control the atronachs well at all on Live (which means the dps will die), and we'd need a god-tier healer to keep us up through some of the aoe because we can't shield. Block-cancelled LA weaves sound like a good idea on paper, but the 2s cooldown on stamina/magicka regen once we drop block is a problem and there isn't a good place to drop block during the atronach or aoe phases. And again, that's one boss fight, out of all the post-IC content.

NBs can utilize support skills and group buffs as well as DKs can. granted, they don't have Molten Weapons or Fiery Grip, but they can Fracture and Breach, they can Maim, they can use a strong Group Shield, they can off-heal and they have awesome sustain and they do not need an god tier healer, in fact they don't need much healing at all allowing for the healer to do more damage if need be.

what you are doing here is trying to drive home the point that DKs are great tanks in all fights (which noone disputes) by cherry picking a fight where they really shine and comparing it to how you think a NB would perform on the premise that all tanks work the same (which they don't!), missing the actual point of this secondary conversation in this thread entirely.

and to be clear, i don't think that you necessarily have to be a support tank to be an effective tank. i've seen enuf AlcastHQ DK tank builds die during a fight because they made a little mistake. being a super efficient meta slave doesn't mean success is guaranteed.

aeowulf · April 2018

Jerkling wrote: »

NBs can utilize support skills and group buffs as well as DKs can. granted, they don't have Molten Weapons or Fiery Grip, but they can Fracture and Breach, they can Maim, they can use a strong Group Shield, they can off-heal and they have awesome sustain and they do not need an god tier healer, in fact they don't need much healing at all allowing for the healer to do more damage if need be.

what you are doing here is trying to drive home the point that DKs are great tanks in all fights (which noone disputes) by cherry picking a fight where they really shine and comparing it to how you think a NB would perform on the premise that all tanks work the same (which they don't!), missing the actual point of this secondary conversation in this thread entirely.

and to be clear, i don't think that you necessarily have to be a support tank to be an effective tank. i've seen enuf AlcastHQ DK tank builds die during a fight because they made a little mistake. being a super efficient meta slave doesn't mean success is guaranteed.

all tanks have fracture (from puncture - granting taunt)
all tanks have maim (nb will just have the option of AE using magicka, but loosing minor heroism and 100% uptime)
DK shield is magicka, and grants them stamina
NB tanks have the second worst sustain in the game, beaten only by templar. How is that awesome again?
NB tanks do need a god-tier healer, not for themselves but for the group due to lack of CC

Right now NB tanks are undeniably missing from ESO. Does this not tell you enough? So are templar tanks, dk healers, stamplars are rare as, sorc tanks too.

NB tanks need <something> that's useful or at least fun, and the resources to cast it. Other tanks get something, be it AE root, or chains or group shield or whatever. some of it is emulated by non-class skills. That doesn't make the class better though. There is nothing a NB tank can do that another can't.

Thing is, if I EVER figured out a NB tank build, I doubt I would ever share it. How selfish is that? If I did, I am pretty sure it would be nerfed next patch. It's almost like ZoS follow Gilliam's tank builds which is a horrible feeling

ccfeeling · April 2018

Can u share your no sturdy tank youtubes

ZOS_JesC · April 2018

Greetings, we've removed a few comments that were baiting which is against our forum rules. Keep comments on topic and constructive. We understand not everyone will agree on certain topics, however posts need to remain productive towards the conversation. Thank you for your understanding.

Marginis · April 2018

I'm just going to say that I am one of.those tanks who likes to tank AND use an ability to stealth (something very important as trudging through adds while exploring the overworld with my low tank DPS is a slog). Having an alternative to making the choice between stealth and tanking would be greatly appreciated, as much as I like the new morph's effects. As it stands right now, even though the changes are meant to make NBs more viable at tanking, I feel like I have to (and I might) just turn my NB tank main into a DPS or healer.

VaxtinTheWolf · April 2018

You don't have to wear your brick wall tank setup if you are just doing quests. I may not care as much about that and do dolmens sometimes solo on the tanks but I to use Grothar/Bloodthorn with some spell damage jewelry glyphs instead of bloodspawn/Dragonguard and block cost reduction and a damage ultimate for instance And you don't have to care about sustain either, spam those skills. Maybe that's just me though I guess. It's slower but it doesn't have to be as tedious as some paint that picture to be.

If you were leveling a tank through PvE you can do a similar thing with making a damage set in heavy while using 1H-&-Shield. A couple skills to kill things and the rest being skills you want to level to a morph-able state.

victoriana-blue · April 2018

Random thought: is there even an NB tank meta anymore? I'd think that would require a critical mass of NB tanks, as opposed to a few people going "Well this setup works sometimes."

Jerkling wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

I don't speak for the community, but I've seen a heck of a lot of discussions about what makes a good tank and I'm 100% confident that the consensus is "Does more than survive and hold aggro," emphasis on "good." I can dig up example discussions if you like.

And you might want to re-read your comment yourself: using "people" meant you were including not just the person you were replying to, but everyone who's been trying to make NB tanks work since U14.

then don't act like you do by putting me in the "the community vs whatever you think" spot.

and where exactly are we talking about what a "good" tank does? you don't even seem to understand what has been said as you come up with points for an argument that noone is involved in.

and i don't need to re-read what i wrote, i know what i said and what i meant by it since i am the one who wrote it. quoting "people" out of context and implying what i meant just proves that you in fact did not understand what's been said.

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Mmhm, and the utility skills & passives are what make DKs superior tanks. You said "what does tanking actually come down to? it's 3 things - keep agro on your target(s), stay on top of the mechanic, don't die. that's the things you need to be able to do as a tank and i don't see DKs outperforming any other class at any of those" and I was listing ways that the DKs are better at staying alive and minding mechanics, along with the group buffs.

the question never was what class the best tank is. it has been said that you can't do a consistent endgame NB tank or an NB tank at all, which is simply not true. and what i'm listing here are the 3 basic things you need to be able to do as a tank. what's so hard to understand about that? basic! and a DK is in no way outperforming any other class at the basics because those aren't things that are done with a class ability but with player skill, awareness and knowledge/experience.

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Honest question, what do you think NB tanks bring to that fight, or other fights? Because I look at my kit and think "lolno" - the veteran Domihaus fight is too mobile to use path or wall freely, we need to wear selfish gear to survive (and thereby lose out on useful things like ult gen), we can't control the atronachs well at all on Live (which means the dps will die), and we'd need a god-tier healer to keep us up through some of the aoe because we can't shield. Block-cancelled LA weaves sound like a good idea on paper, but the 2s cooldown on stamina/magicka regen once we drop block is a problem and there isn't a good place to drop block during the atronach or aoe phases. And again, that's one boss fight, out of all the post-IC content.

NBs can utilize support skills and group buffs as well as DKs can. granted, they don't have Molten Weapons or Fiery Grip, but they can Fracture and Breach, they can Maim, they can use a strong Group Shield, they can off-heal and they have awesome sustain and they do not need an god tier healer, in fact they don't need much healing at all allowing for the healer to do more damage if need be.

what you are doing here is trying to drive home the point that DKs are great tanks in all fights (which noone disputes) by cherry picking a fight where they really shine and comparing it to how you think a NB would perform on the premise that all tanks work the same (which they don't!), missing the actual point of this secondary conversation in this thread entirely.

and to be clear, i don't think that you necessarily have to be a support tank to be an effective tank. i've seen enuf AlcastHQ DK tank builds die during a fight because they made a little mistake. being a super efficient meta slave doesn't mean success is guaranteed.

What support skills? Bone shield? Vigor?

Anyway, I'm talking about what NBs (don't) bring to end game, trial, and vet DLC tanking.

I already agreed that nb tanks are fabulous for vanilla dungeon content: path and strife take some of the pressure off of the healer, and I can solo normal dungeons just fine.

What NB tanks can't do well is vet DLC and trial content, e.g. Vet Falkreath Hold, where you need to be a good tank. Any shlub with a taunt and a heal can tank nFGI - I should know, I ended up tanking a lot of normals on my sub-50 magsorc dps during the winter dungeon event because group finder - but that doesn't hold for the tougher content.

I can go through all the trials and vet DLCs up to CWC to show why NB tanks need to be carried by a team in order to complete, if you want. Falkreath is simply one of the ones I know best.

Maryal · April 2018

I don't get the 'why' .... of all the skills we have, the one chosen to be a tank healing skill was a cloak morph. This was done supposedly to help tanks who didn't want to loose agro (blagh blagh blagh). The reasons given for the change made it sound like tanks were fed up being forced to go invisible and loosing agro when using cloak ... but to my knowledge, no tanks were cloaking while tanking anyway, so it sounds like the reason given for the change was a bit of a stretch.

If they really wanted to help tanks, they should have changed power extraction to cause AOE minor maim (or even major maim), heal the caster for X amount, plus an additional x% for each enemy hit, and grant minor protection to nearby allies. That would have given NBs who wanted to be 'tanks' a skill that not only benefitted the NB tank, but also offered group utility.

Vaoh · April 2018

Has anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?

NyassaV · April 2018

As much as I get the concerns, you can still effectively tank without this morph... I do it all the time

RoyJade · April 2018

Maryal wrote: »

I don't get the 'why' .... of all the skills we have, the one chosen to be a tank healing skill was a cloak morph. This was done supposedly to help tanks who didn't want to loose agro (blagh blagh blagh). The reasons given for the change made it sound like tanks were fed up being forced to go invisible and loosing agro when using cloak ... but to my knowledge, no tanks were cloaking while tanking anyway, so it sounds like the reason given for the change was a bit of a stretch.

For the same reason vigor pull you out of stealth, but with a bigger heal : because ZOS doesn't want a huge heal in/and invisibility. And also because a shadow skill proc some of the best NB passive, especially the double resistance buff. Also, magblade and stamblade can use the other morph pretty efficiently (when the crit is not buggued), it's a all-around dps morph, so changing the other morph for tanking is easily doable.
They want shadow to be the tank tree, this change make sense. The only real downside when considering ZOS point of view is the removal of the invisibility skill for pve quester, and that's why I suggested a "give invisibility when out of combat" additional effect.