Maintenance for the week of May 4:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 4
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – May 4
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 12.0.3 is available.
Dark Cloak and NB tanking.
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Marginis✭✭✭✭✭Has anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?
I've tested a little bit on PTS. NB tanking is definitely better, but for me personally, as someone who used cloak for a bit of utility, it's like someone went and said "here, let me add some flavor to your steak" but took away the dessert at the same time. I'm losing utility in favor of a little bit of a general buff. So it's not bad per se, just bittersweet, to me. For tanks who never used cloak this is just a straight up buff.@Marginis on PC, Senpai Fluffy on Xbox, Founder of Magicka. Also known as Kha'jiri, The Night Mother, Ma'iq, Jane Shepard, Damia, Kintyra, Zoor Do Kest, You, and a few others.0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭Has anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/408668/new-nb-skills-need-adjustment-for-viability#latest
I’ve tested the new cloak and offering mostly for PvP scenarios. Both are performing decent in PvE, cloak for tanks and offering for heals. Sadly in PvP cloak seems incredibly inefficient in terms of heals and uptime, and offering‘s percentage health cost unnessesarly punishes tanke players.. they defiantly need adjustments as discussed in that thread.0 -
victoriana-blue✭✭✭✭
I have, but not with the Psijic skill line yet. The cloak morph is fine as a "oh ***" heal. I'm having more problems with the cost increase on strife, myself - the increased cost is noticeable, but dropping it for cloak means the loss of ult gen is noticeable too.Has anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?CP 750+
Never enough inventory space, even with storage coffers and a mule account0 -
Jerkling✭✭✭✭
your point being? because all tanks have those NB tanks can't use them? or that then it's not actually supporting the group? and again i'm going to make the point that not all tanks/tank builds work the same.all tanks have fracture (from puncture - granting taunt)
all tanks have maim (nb will just have the option of AE using magicka, but loosing minor heroism and 100% uptime)
DK shield is magicka, and grants them stamina
if you really think that than you simply do not know how to sustain. and again i'm going to make the point that not all tanks/tank builds work the same.NB tanks have the second worst sustain in the game, beaten only by templar. How is that awesome again?
that's what she said ...NB tanks do need a god-tier healer, not for themselves but for the group due to lack of CC
so what is it now?victoriana-blue wrote: »[...] and we'd need a god-tier healer to keep us up through some of the aoe because we can't shield
and why would you need a god tier healer for anyone else just because NBs are missing a grapple? you can use a range taunt, can you not?
one could also make the point that if you don't have a god tier healer or healers in your group then wtf are your healers doing? just saying.
what this is telling me is that like in most games ppl tend to go for the optimal, most efficient or OP classes for a certain role because they don't want to feel like they are missing out or be told by others that their choice is "subpar" because it's not the current meta.Right now NB tanks are undeniably missing from ESO. Does this not tell you enough? So are templar tanks, dk healers, stamplars are rare as, sorc tanks too.
NB tanks need <something> that's useful or at least fun, and the resources to cast it. Other tanks get something, be it AE root, or chains or group shield or whatever. some of it is emulated by non-class skills. That doesn't make the class better though. There is nothing a NB tank can do that another can't.
how is this relevant for whether NBs can tank endgame content?victoriana-blue wrote: »Random thought: is there even an NB tank meta anymore? I'd think that would require a critical mass of NB tanks, as opposed to a few people going "Well this setup works sometimes."
among others Bone Shield, yes.victoriana-blue wrote: »What support skills? Bone shield? Vigor?
uhm, no, you don't. you asked me what they would bring and said looking at your build you'd think nothing.victoriana-blue wrote: »Anyway, I'm talking about what NBs (don't) bring to end game, trial, and vet DLC tanking.
and you can not possibly be a "good" tank if you're not a DK...! you keep applying the DK standard to all classes and expect them to all work the same which i think we can agree on is impossible because the classes don't share the same skill sets and certain skills can not be substituted by none class skills. but that doesn't mean you can't be a "good" tank playing a class other than DK. the main difference is that except for Wardens no other class has a grapple and no other class has anything like Molten Weapons, but you can do fine without if you are willing to adjust how you play as tank and as group a little. which you and most others seem to be unwilling to do because DK is convenient and easy going.victoriana-blue wrote: »What NB tanks can't do well is vet DLC and trial content, e.g. Vet Falkreath Hold, where you need to be a good tank. Any shlub with a taunt and a heal can tank nFGI - I should know, I ended up tanking a lot of normals on my sub-50 magsorc dps during the winter dungeon event because group finder - but that doesn't hold for the tougher content.
what are you talking about, you always need to be carried by a team. that's how group composition works, you need one another.victoriana-blue wrote: »I can go through all the trials and vet DLCs up to CWC to show why NB tanks need to be carried by a team in order to complete, if you want. Falkreath is simply one of the ones I know best.
since you are determined to proof that no matter what it's completely impossible to be a good (or at all) tank unless you play a DK, on the grounds of current meta, and your unwillingness to adapt or to allow for any other position than your own on this matter i'm not going to participate in this discussion any longer.
no, i can't as i don't have any. and i am not going to either. i don't owe you any proof in order for my arguments to be valid since i already provided a build that you can test out yourself.Can u share your no sturdy tank youtubes
that you think i would need sturdy gear or that i would use active blocking in order to tank just shows that you have no clue on how this specific build works. and your obvious unwillingness to find out but rather make snarky comments with the destinct aim of making me look like a fool is just pathetic and sad.
like i've already told you before, go troll someone else.Edited by Jerkling on April 25, 2018 10:02AM1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Has anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?
Malevolent is bad for NB tank. Between the fact you can't target yourself (hoping its a bug) and that its now a % of your max health vs a flat cost, it drains more of your health as a Tank for the same amount of healing. It's 100% a Healer exclusive skill now and shouldn't be run on a Tank build at all.
Dark Cloak, I find to be very useful in Dungeons and Trials, less so in open world PvP. It's heal isn't bad there but defile meta makes me still feel squishy there
your point being? because all tanks have those NB tanks can't use them? or that then it's not actually supporting the group? and again i'm going to make the point that not all tanks/tank builds work the same.all tanks have fracture (from puncture - granting taunt)
all tanks have maim (nb will just have the option of AE using magicka, but loosing minor heroism and 100% uptime)
DK shield is magicka, and grants them stamina
if you really think that than you simply do not know how to sustain. and again i'm going to make the point that not all tanks/tank builds work the same.NB tanks have the second worst sustain in the game, beaten only by templar. How is that awesome again?
that's what she said ...NB tanks do need a god-tier healer, not for themselves but for the group due to lack of CC
so what is it now?victoriana-blue wrote: »[...] and we'd need a god-tier healer to keep us up through some of the aoe because we can't shield
and why would you need a god tier healer for anyone else just because NBs are missing a grapple? you can use a range taunt, can you not?
one could also make the point that if you don't have a god tier healer or healers in your group then wtf are your healers doing? just saying.
what this is telling me is that like in most games ppl tend to go for the optimal, most efficient or OP classes for a certain role because they don't want to feel like they are missing out or be told by others that their choice is "subpar" because it's not the current meta.Right now NB tanks are undeniably missing from ESO. Does this not tell you enough? So are templar tanks, dk healers, stamplars are rare as, sorc tanks too.
NB tanks need <something> that's useful or at least fun, and the resources to cast it. Other tanks get something, be it AE root, or chains or group shield or whatever. some of it is emulated by non-class skills. That doesn't make the class better though. There is nothing a NB tank can do that another can't.
how is this relevant for whether NBs can tank endgame content?victoriana-blue wrote: »Random thought: is there even an NB tank meta anymore? I'd think that would require a critical mass of NB tanks, as opposed to a few people going "Well this setup works sometimes."
among others Bone Shield, yes.victoriana-blue wrote: »What support skills? Bone shield? Vigor?
uhm, no, you don't. you asked me what they would bring and said looking at your build you'd think nothing.victoriana-blue wrote: »Anyway, I'm talking about what NBs (don't) bring to end game, trial, and vet DLC tanking.
and you can not possibly be a "good" tank if you're not a DK...! you keep applying the DK standard to all classes and expect them to all work the same which i think we can agree on is impossible because the classes don't share the same skill sets and certain skills can not be substituted by none class skills. but that doesn't mean you can't be a "good" tank playing a class other than DK. the main difference is that except for Wardens no other class has a grapple and no other class has anything like Molten Weapons, but you can do fine without if you are willing to adjust how you play as tank and as group a little. which you and most others seem to be unwilling to do because DK is convenient and easy going.victoriana-blue wrote: »What NB tanks can't do well is vet DLC and trial content, e.g. Vet Falkreath Hold, where you need to be a good tank. Any shlub with a taunt and a heal can tank nFGI - I should know, I ended up tanking a lot of normals on my sub-50 magsorc dps during the winter dungeon event because group finder - but that doesn't hold for the tougher content.
what are you talking about, you always need to be carried by a team. that's how group composition works, you need one another.victoriana-blue wrote: »I can go through all the trials and vet DLCs up to CWC to show why NB tanks need to be carried by a team in order to complete, if you want. Falkreath is simply one of the ones I know best.
since you are determined to proof that no matter what it's completely impossible to be a good (or at all) tank unless you play a DK, on the grounds of current meta, and your unwillingness to adapt or to allow for any other position than your own on this matter i'm not going to participate in this discussion any longer.
no, i can't as i don't have any. and i am not going to either. i don't owe you any proof in order for my arguments to be valid since i already provided a build that you can test out yourself.Can u share your no sturdy tank youtubes
that you think i would need sturdy gear or that i would use active blocking in order to tank just shows that you have no clue on how this specific build works. and your obvious unwillingness to find out but rather make snarky comments with the destinct aim of making me look like a fool is just pathetic and sad.
like i've already told you before, go troll someone else.
The problem with your build is that you could replace the NB with ANY other class and find equal, if not better, success.
Throw Plague Doctor + Green Pact on a Templar and you have a blazing shield build. Then, they have the added utility of Shards and PotL, several self heals that also benefit the group, etc. Sorcs have encase, which is arguably better than Talons, better shields, good sustain since Dark Deal won't be a problem using with all that health and their sustain is getting buffed with Summerset changes. There's not even a need to discuss what DK or Warden bring as that's been discussed to death as it is.
NB tanks bring nothing to the table and that's their main problem going into Summerset. Our class CC is counter intuitive to tanking, our sustain tool is not as good as other classes (barring Templar), Shade is easily bested by Heroic Slash and even with Summerset making it an AoE, I'm hesitant to use it over Heroic as the Ultimate regen on Heroic is just too good to pass up. Major Evasion is literally the only thing that differentiates NB tanks from every other class but dodging a handful of attacks periodically cannot make up the difference between NBs and every other class.
Yes, any tank can be viable at end game but why settle for only being viable instead of being worthwhile?Argonian forever1 -
victoriana-blue✭✭✭✭
Not a she, and I was thinking of the sea of fire during execute, that's nothing to trifle with.
that's what she said ...NB tanks do need a god-tier healer, not for themselves but for the group due to lack of CC
so what is it now?victoriana-blue wrote: »[...] and we'd need a god-tier healer to keep us up through some of the aoe because we can't shield
and why would you need a god tier healer for anyone else just because NBs are missing a grapple? you can use a range taunt, can you not?
one could also make the point that if you don't have a god tier healer or healers in your group then wtf are your healers doing? just saying.
aoewulf is also right: in Falkreath there are four new adds every what, 45ish seconds? Using 8-10 seconds to get them grouped up via taunt instead of the 4 seconds of chains is a significant dps loss from the group's ground-based aoes, which means the adds will be alive longer and will have more opportunities to kill your squishies (and will drain more of your resources in order to keep them taunted). And wow - the idea of requiring the best of the best to heal is awful, I wouldn't want to put that kind of pressure on my healer.
It's not, hence me putting it at the beginning of my comment before I replied to you. I thought of it while laughing at the idea I'm a ~slave~ to the meta, given that my only DKs are lvl 3 inventory mules and I'll never play a warden.
how is this relevant for whether NBs can tank endgame content?victoriana-blue wrote: »Random thought: is there even an NB tank meta anymore? I'd think that would require a critical mass of NB tanks, as opposed to a few people going "Well this setup works sometimes."
"Kit" meant all available skills & gear, not my build specifically.
uhm, no, you don't. you asked me what they would bring and said looking at your build you'd think nothing.victoriana-blue wrote: »Anyway, I'm talking about what NBs (don't) bring to end game, trial, and vet DLC tanking.
It's not "the DK standard," it's that DKs and wardens meet the minimum standards of end game tanking. We want nightblade tanks to be useable in end game, let alone at par or non-optimal.
and you can not possibly be a "good" tank if you're not a DK...! you keep applying the DK standard to all classes and expect them to all work the same which i think we can agree on is impossible because the classes don't share the same skill sets and certain skills can not be substituted by none class skills. but that doesn't mean you can't be a "good" tank playing a class other than DK. the main difference is that except for Wardens no other class has a grapple and no other class has anything like Molten Weapons, but you can do fine without if you are willing to adjust how you play as tank and as group a little. which you and most others seem to be unwilling to do because DK is convenient and easy going.victoriana-blue wrote: »What NB tanks can't do well is vet DLC and trial content, e.g. Vet Falkreath Hold, where you need to be a good tank. Any shlub with a taunt and a heal can tank nFGI - I should know, I ended up tanking a lot of normals on my sub-50 magsorc dps during the winter dungeon event because group finder - but that doesn't hold for the tougher content.
Trust me, you're preaching to the choir about wanting groups to be more flexible wrt approaches to tanking - I have a rant about tanking the Planar Inhibitor and when you actually need the pinion. That said, tanks still need to contribute to the group.
There's a difference between being carried and being a contributing member of a team.
what are you talking about, you always need to be carried by a team. that's how group composition works, you need one another.victoriana-blue wrote: »I can go through all the trials and vet DLCs up to CWC to show why NB tanks need to be carried by a team in order to complete, if you want. Falkreath is simply one of the ones I know best.
You keep talking about playing differently, but all I've seen is a health build that would do fine in PvP and normal content. (Taunts, shade is a single target maim on live, one aoe skill and the veil aoe ult, siphoning & focus; tbf the minor endurance from focus is great on my stamblade.) Do you sit there and eat all the hits? Do you have enough stamina/magicka to block all the stuns in a 2+ boss battle, like the final boss of vet Bloodroot or the axes in AA? Do you chug crafted stamina pots off cooldown? How often do you break free? The shadow passives don't match the shade duration, are you recasting early? What kind of hps are you doing with strife, since forgoing path means you're losing out on off-healing?
Your forum account is from pre-Morrowind so I assume you remember when siphoning attacks/strikes was good, those days were great. I miss them. I miss vDSA. I miss learning to main tank a normal trial with the expectation I would be able to tank the vet version later, and I miss fun trial runs where running Ebon didn't screw over my resource management. But it's been a year and the game has moved on. /shrugEdited by victoriana-blue on April 25, 2018 5:06PMCP 750+
Never enough inventory space, even with storage coffers and a mule account1 -
actosh✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambertHas anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?
@Vaoh
Hey, to answer your question it may be a longer post. i try to keep it as short as possible.
First off, the ones claiming invisibility on live let you loose aggro should stop talking ***, because it dosnt work that way since 1 Tamriel. Instead u make the next direct hit aimed at you to miss for 100%. Dont believe me? Go test it, works best in VAS and other Trials where a direct hit can take away a lot of health.
Secondly, ppl who dont play a nb tank, or didnt do more than normal crap dungeons shouldnt contribute to the thread at all, sry but thats how i see it.
For about 2 years now i tank hm dungeons(dlc included), vtrial hm, and all the other *** with my Stam based NB Tank (yeah, not one of those sap tanks, they were fun before morrowind but never fun to me ^^). I still own a dk tank i tanked all crap in the game with, but i got a bit bored of him, and since nb was my first char i played in the game and i like to do everything on 1 char (yep u need to make compromisses somewhere in the build) i stick to my nb (all motifs learned and such).
Dk was, and will be the best tank u can play, not because he got a shield for the grp, not because he has an easy as *** ressource mangement, NO, the reason dk stays the best tank is Engulfing Flames ( debuffed enemy takes 8% more dmg from fire sources).
Until ZOS decides to put a similiar buff anywhere into the skilllines dk will be the top notch choice. period.
Now, lets go into NB Tanking on live (only vet hm trials & dlc hm dungeons)
Crowd Control
Nb´s lack crowd control that is in some way similiar to a dk´s talons, wich are helpfull in VMOL and certain DLC Dungeons (looking at u damn bugs in Fang lair).
Pulling
No pull ability besides Swarm Mother ( was a nice addition, but works only against ranged mobs), wich makes it sometimes a pain if a ranged dd is channeling or doing anything else then attacking. Vmol second boss as well kinda sucks, but u can do it with swarm mother but u gotta be careful.
Healing
Well, even as stam specced, path was basicly all i needed to stay alive combined with siphoning strikes. I need to say that i dont permblock, and always throw in a light attack for the heal and to proc enchantments. Could add strife in for more heal, but well, wont sacrifice 3 slots, when it works with 2 Skills.
Ressourcemangement also works pretty good if u know what you are doing. There is no need to be argonian, but if u r one, its gettin kinda stupid and easy.
Still lacking vas+2 clear since our little daughter requiresa a lot of time and i can at the moment mostly raid on 1 day. Miss the days where i could do 4.
Now lets look what summerset gives us.
Crowd Control
Time Freeze (psijic)
God i love it! got to think a bit ahead but its a perfect cc and i thank zos for adding it. So we are cool as nb tanks in the cc department. Take that fang lair bugs!!!!!!
Pulling
Silver Leash
Nothing to add, its a pull whatever you like, and welcomes for senches in vmol and on certain other fights in the game. Cost stam, but if u can manage your ressources in a half decent way, no prob at all, and again thx Zos.
Healing
Dark Cloak
Wow, i really like the skill and it is replacing Refreshing Path. Like the design, but not the animation.
Maybe you should make one of malovelent offering morphs as a heal, but in the end i dont care.
Minor protection buff is to short, and it should affect caster and group, to give nb´s a bit more support locked in a tank skill.
Ressourcemanagement wont change in any way. I can handle it, but i think zos could improve it a bit. pls dont make it as easy as dk´s ressourcemanagement, but a little buff would be okay.
Done few trials and dlc dungeons on pts, and found the 3 mentioned skills above are a big buff, for my type of gameplay.
So again thx zos.
What do NB´Tanks need to be a bit more competitive?
- Grp supportskill & a synergy they can offer them that is not bound to a ultimate u wont use, since warhorn is a must.
- A way to get the engulfing buff to let enemys take more flame dmg (or something similiar in one of the skill lines available to all, since this is something all tanks beside dk lack). Other option would be to let the other tanks offer another dmg increae buff thats locked to a tank skill.
- A little buff to ressourcemanagement, not the old siphonings, as they were op as ***. But in the end even vaa hm axes are no prob to tank as a NB.
- Dark Shade, needs to do the aoe main more reliably, all 4 seconds for example, right now its still worlds worse then heroic slash or even thorvokum monster set!.
-Minor protection should effect up to 5 members for 6 seconds in a 10 meter radius (similiar to dk´s shield for example)
Honestly the most challenging fight until now was fang lair hm as a nb tank ,rest just needed a bit of practice.
Sidenote: My healer gives a *** if i play dk or nb, no need to carry me.
I havent mentioned shadow ulti, because in a raid u use horn, nothing else.
Have a nice day guys/girls.
7 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambertHas anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?
@Vaoh
Hey, to answer your question it may be a longer post. i try to keep it as short as possible.
First off, the ones claiming invisibility on live let you loose aggro should stop talking ***, because it dosnt work that way since 1 Tamriel. Instead u make the next direct hit aimed at you to miss for 100%. Dont believe me? Go test it, works best in VAS and other Trials where a direct hit can take away a lot of health.
Secondly, ppl who dont play a nb tank, or didnt do more than normal crap dungeons shouldnt contribute to the thread at all, sry but thats how i see it.
For about 2 years now i tank hm dungeons(dlc included), vtrial hm, and all the other *** with my Stam based NB Tank (yeah, not one of those sap tanks, they were fun before morrowind but never fun to me ^^). I still own a dk tank i tanked all crap in the game with, but i got a bit bored of him, and since nb was my first char i played in the game and i like to do everything on 1 char (yep u need to make compromisses somewhere in the build) i stick to my nb (all motifs learned and such).
Dk was, and will be the best tank u can play, not because he got a shield for the grp, not because he has an easy as *** ressource mangement, NO, the reason dk stays the best tank is Engulfing Flames ( debuffed enemy takes 8% more dmg from fire sources).
Until ZOS decides to put a similiar buff anywhere into the skilllines dk will be the top notch choice. period.
Now, lets go into NB Tanking on live (only vet hm trials & dlc hm dungeons)
Crowd Control
Nb´s lack crowd control that is in some way similiar to a dk´s talons, wich are helpfull in VMOL and certain DLC Dungeons (looking at u damn bugs in Fang lair).
Pulling
No pull ability besides Swarm Mother ( was a nice addition, but works only against ranged mobs), wich makes it sometimes a pain if a ranged dd is channeling or doing anything else then attacking. Vmol second boss as well kinda sucks, but u can do it with swarm mother but u gotta be careful.
Healing
Well, even as stam specced, path was basicly all i needed to stay alive combined with siphoning strikes. I need to say that i dont permblock, and always throw in a light attack for the heal and to proc enchantments. Could add strife in for more heal, but well, wont sacrifice 3 slots, when it works with 2 Skills.
Ressourcemangement also works pretty good if u know what you are doing. There is no need to be argonian, but if u r one, its gettin kinda stupid and easy.
Still lacking vas+2 clear since our little daughter requiresa a lot of time and i can at the moment mostly raid on 1 day. Miss the days where i could do 4.
Now lets look what summerset gives us.
Crowd Control
Time Freeze (psijic)
God i love it! got to think a bit ahead but its a perfect cc and i thank zos for adding it. So we are cool as nb tanks in the cc department. Take that fang lair bugs!!!!!!
Pulling
Silver Leash
Nothing to add, its a pull whatever you like, and welcomes for senches in vmol and on certain other fights in the game. Cost stam, but if u can manage your ressources in a half decent way, no prob at all, and again thx Zos.
Healing
Dark Cloak
Wow, i really like the skill and it is replacing Refreshing Path. Like the design, but not the animation.
Maybe you should make one of malovelent offering morphs as a heal, but in the end i dont care.
Minor protection buff is to short, and it should affect caster and group, to give nb´s a bit more support locked in a tank skill.
Ressourcemanagement wont change in any way. I can handle it, but i think zos could improve it a bit. pls dont make it as easy as dk´s ressourcemanagement, but a little buff would be okay.
Done few trials and dlc dungeons on pts, and found the 3 mentioned skills above are a big buff, for my type of gameplay.
So again thx zos.
What do NB´Tanks need to be a bit more competitive?
- Grp supportskill & a synergy they can offer them that is not bound to a ultimate u wont use, since warhorn is a must.
- A way to get the engulfing buff to let enemys take more flame dmg (or something similiar in one of the skill lines available to all, since this is something all tanks beside dk lack). Other option would be to let the other tanks offer another dmg increae buff thats locked to a tank skill.
- A little buff to ressourcemanagement, not the old siphonings, as they were op as ***. But in the end even vaa hm axes are no prob to tank as a NB.
- Dark Shade, needs to do the aoe main more reliably, all 4 seconds for example, right now its still worlds worse then heroic slash or even thorvokum monster set!.
-Minor protection should effect up to 5 members for 6 seconds in a 10 meter radius (similiar to dk´s shield for example)
Honestly the most challenging fight until now was fang lair hm as a nb tank ,rest just needed a bit of practice.
Sidenote: My healer gives a *** if i play dk or nb, no need to carry me.
I havent mentioned shadow ulti, because in a raid u use horn, nothing else.
Have a nice day guys/girls.
Awesome response, tysm!
one thing though about DK tank - you said they were basically only best because of Engulfing Flames. Would that no longer be the case if Mag DK DPS was viable again? I've heard it was pretty high on PTS.0 -
Mataata✭✭✭Here's an idea: Make it heal you after the invis is over. That way a tank can use it, use an ability, and then get a heal from it. It would also help people who want to gank as it would give them good sustain after the opening hit or a heal to help them escape after their magicka runs outEdited by Mataata on April 26, 2018 1:27AM0 -
actosh✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambertHas anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?
@Vaoh
Hey, to answer your question it may be a longer post. i try to keep it as short as possible.
First off, the ones claiming invisibility on live let you loose aggro should stop talking ***, because it dosnt work that way since 1 Tamriel. Instead u make the next direct hit aimed at you to miss for 100%. Dont believe me? Go test it, works best in VAS and other Trials where a direct hit can take away a lot of health.
Secondly, ppl who dont play a nb tank, or didnt do more than normal crap dungeons shouldnt contribute to the thread at all, sry but thats how i see it.
For about 2 years now i tank hm dungeons(dlc included), vtrial hm, and all the other *** with my Stam based NB Tank (yeah, not one of those sap tanks, they were fun before morrowind but never fun to me ^^). I still own a dk tank i tanked all crap in the game with, but i got a bit bored of him, and since nb was my first char i played in the game and i like to do everything on 1 char (yep u need to make compromisses somewhere in the build) i stick to my nb (all motifs learned and such).
Dk was, and will be the best tank u can play, not because he got a shield for the grp, not because he has an easy as *** ressource mangement, NO, the reason dk stays the best tank is Engulfing Flames ( debuffed enemy takes 8% more dmg from fire sources).
Until ZOS decides to put a similiar buff anywhere into the skilllines dk will be the top notch choice. period.
Now, lets go into NB Tanking on live (only vet hm trials & dlc hm dungeons)
Crowd Control
Nb´s lack crowd control that is in some way similiar to a dk´s talons, wich are helpfull in VMOL and certain DLC Dungeons (looking at u damn bugs in Fang lair).
Pulling
No pull ability besides Swarm Mother ( was a nice addition, but works only against ranged mobs), wich makes it sometimes a pain if a ranged dd is channeling or doing anything else then attacking. Vmol second boss as well kinda sucks, but u can do it with swarm mother but u gotta be careful.
Healing
Well, even as stam specced, path was basicly all i needed to stay alive combined with siphoning strikes. I need to say that i dont permblock, and always throw in a light attack for the heal and to proc enchantments. Could add strife in for more heal, but well, wont sacrifice 3 slots, when it works with 2 Skills.
Ressourcemangement also works pretty good if u know what you are doing. There is no need to be argonian, but if u r one, its gettin kinda stupid and easy.
Still lacking vas+2 clear since our little daughter requiresa a lot of time and i can at the moment mostly raid on 1 day. Miss the days where i could do 4.
Now lets look what summerset gives us.
Crowd Control
Time Freeze (psijic)
God i love it! got to think a bit ahead but its a perfect cc and i thank zos for adding it. So we are cool as nb tanks in the cc department. Take that fang lair bugs!!!!!!
Pulling
Silver Leash
Nothing to add, its a pull whatever you like, and welcomes for senches in vmol and on certain other fights in the game. Cost stam, but if u can manage your ressources in a half decent way, no prob at all, and again thx Zos.
Healing
Dark Cloak
Wow, i really like the skill and it is replacing Refreshing Path. Like the design, but not the animation.
Maybe you should make one of malovelent offering morphs as a heal, but in the end i dont care.
Minor protection buff is to short, and it should affect caster and group, to give nb´s a bit more support locked in a tank skill.
Ressourcemanagement wont change in any way. I can handle it, but i think zos could improve it a bit. pls dont make it as easy as dk´s ressourcemanagement, but a little buff would be okay.
Done few trials and dlc dungeons on pts, and found the 3 mentioned skills above are a big buff, for my type of gameplay.
So again thx zos.
What do NB´Tanks need to be a bit more competitive?
- Grp supportskill & a synergy they can offer them that is not bound to a ultimate u wont use, since warhorn is a must.
- A way to get the engulfing buff to let enemys take more flame dmg (or something similiar in one of the skill lines available to all, since this is something all tanks beside dk lack). Other option would be to let the other tanks offer another dmg increae buff thats locked to a tank skill.
- A little buff to ressourcemanagement, not the old siphonings, as they were op as ***. But in the end even vaa hm axes are no prob to tank as a NB.
- Dark Shade, needs to do the aoe main more reliably, all 4 seconds for example, right now its still worlds worse then heroic slash or even thorvokum monster set!.
-Minor protection should effect up to 5 members for 6 seconds in a 10 meter radius (similiar to dk´s shield for example)
Honestly the most challenging fight until now was fang lair hm as a nb tank ,rest just needed a bit of practice.
Sidenote: My healer gives a *** if i play dk or nb, no need to carry me.
I havent mentioned shadow ulti, because in a raid u use horn, nothing else.
Have a nice day guys/girls.
Awesome response, tysm!
one thing though about DK tank - you said they were basically only best because of Engulfing Flames. Would that no longer be the case if Mag DK DPS was viable again? I've heard it was pretty high on PTS.
The thing is, if mag dk will be viable again, i know a few engame tanks that are high in the leaderboards that want to switch to stam nb tank for ultgen (20 ult on potion usage) like hell while wearing torugs/alkosh/bloodspawn or ebon/alkosh/bloodspawn. In most fights you could aswell (thats what i do, use invigorating drain for 15 ult over 3 secs).
So ult gen will be the reason to go for nb tanks, u can play them like a dk, just takes more poractice and u need to get out of your comfort zone. Argonian is not needed, but i think u can imagine how it is to chunk a pot every 21 secs and get around 14k ressources back ^^. But that is nothing new, a lot of tanks allready had the same build idea when summerset pre pts notes dropped.
If u go for 3x potioncooldownglyph on infused jewelry u can reduce the potion cooldown to 21 seconds.
You may be afraid of dropping block cost enchants, but after some tests and a talk with failr, they are not really needed.
Same goes for siphoning strikes, i mainly used it for the heal on light attacks, and the stam restore is pathetic, since u gain the same ammount with 1 heavy attack.
ps: Thanks to the new Dark Cloak heal, i can drop path, siphoning and eventually swallow soul from my bar. So theres plenty of room for other stuff. If i find the time i can post what my build looks like on live, and what it will look on summerset when it drops and zos does no massive changes. I have on live no probs to play raids (vet hm) with my nb, and summerset is such a huge buff, that i dont need christmas presents this year
There are allready ppl claiming that the 20 ult on pation consume is op, or that the cd reduce on potions is to strong(actually bugged on pts, can get it down to 3 secs) but i think it gives nb´s a special way to build, that no other class has. Cant see anything op here dk still has best ressource management.
Link to block cost calc if anyone needs.
https://jscalc.io/embed/jmkkL11hrPP1Ym94Edited by actosh on April 26, 2018 7:27AM4 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambertHas anyone tested NB tank? I'm talking about both PvE and PvP, though mainly PvE. Is it performing okay or at least better thanks to Malevolent offering and this new Dark Cloak?
@Vaoh
Hey, to answer your question it may be a longer post. i try to keep it as short as possible.
First off, the ones claiming invisibility on live let you loose aggro should stop talking ***, because it dosnt work that way since 1 Tamriel. Instead u make the next direct hit aimed at you to miss for 100%. Dont believe me? Go test it, works best in VAS and other Trials where a direct hit can take away a lot of health.
Secondly, ppl who dont play a nb tank, or didnt do more than normal crap dungeons shouldnt contribute to the thread at all, sry but thats how i see it.
For about 2 years now i tank hm dungeons(dlc included), vtrial hm, and all the other *** with my Stam based NB Tank (yeah, not one of those sap tanks, they were fun before morrowind but never fun to me ^^). I still own a dk tank i tanked all crap in the game with, but i got a bit bored of him, and since nb was my first char i played in the game and i like to do everything on 1 char (yep u need to make compromisses somewhere in the build) i stick to my nb (all motifs learned and such).
Dk was, and will be the best tank u can play, not because he got a shield for the grp, not because he has an easy as *** ressource mangement, NO, the reason dk stays the best tank is Engulfing Flames ( debuffed enemy takes 8% more dmg from fire sources).
Until ZOS decides to put a similiar buff anywhere into the skilllines dk will be the top notch choice. period.
Now, lets go into NB Tanking on live (only vet hm trials & dlc hm dungeons)
Crowd Control
Nb´s lack crowd control that is in some way similiar to a dk´s talons, wich are helpfull in VMOL and certain DLC Dungeons (looking at u damn bugs in Fang lair).
Pulling
No pull ability besides Swarm Mother ( was a nice addition, but works only against ranged mobs), wich makes it sometimes a pain if a ranged dd is channeling or doing anything else then attacking. Vmol second boss as well kinda sucks, but u can do it with swarm mother but u gotta be careful.
Healing
Well, even as stam specced, path was basicly all i needed to stay alive combined with siphoning strikes. I need to say that i dont permblock, and always throw in a light attack for the heal and to proc enchantments. Could add strife in for more heal, but well, wont sacrifice 3 slots, when it works with 2 Skills.
Ressourcemangement also works pretty good if u know what you are doing. There is no need to be argonian, but if u r one, its gettin kinda stupid and easy.
Still lacking vas+2 clear since our little daughter requiresa a lot of time and i can at the moment mostly raid on 1 day. Miss the days where i could do 4.
Now lets look what summerset gives us.
Crowd Control
Time Freeze (psijic)
God i love it! got to think a bit ahead but its a perfect cc and i thank zos for adding it. So we are cool as nb tanks in the cc department. Take that fang lair bugs!!!!!!
Pulling
Silver Leash
Nothing to add, its a pull whatever you like, and welcomes for senches in vmol and on certain other fights in the game. Cost stam, but if u can manage your ressources in a half decent way, no prob at all, and again thx Zos.
Healing
Dark Cloak
Wow, i really like the skill and it is replacing Refreshing Path. Like the design, but not the animation.
Maybe you should make one of malovelent offering morphs as a heal, but in the end i dont care.
Minor protection buff is to short, and it should affect caster and group, to give nb´s a bit more support locked in a tank skill.
Ressourcemanagement wont change in any way. I can handle it, but i think zos could improve it a bit. pls dont make it as easy as dk´s ressourcemanagement, but a little buff would be okay.
Done few trials and dlc dungeons on pts, and found the 3 mentioned skills above are a big buff, for my type of gameplay.
So again thx zos.
What do NB´Tanks need to be a bit more competitive?
- Grp supportskill & a synergy they can offer them that is not bound to a ultimate u wont use, since warhorn is a must.
- A way to get the engulfing buff to let enemys take more flame dmg (or something similiar in one of the skill lines available to all, since this is something all tanks beside dk lack). Other option would be to let the other tanks offer another dmg increae buff thats locked to a tank skill.
- A little buff to ressourcemanagement, not the old siphonings, as they were op as ***. But in the end even vaa hm axes are no prob to tank as a NB.
- Dark Shade, needs to do the aoe main more reliably, all 4 seconds for example, right now its still worlds worse then heroic slash or even thorvokum monster set!.
-Minor protection should effect up to 5 members for 6 seconds in a 10 meter radius (similiar to dk´s shield for example)
Honestly the most challenging fight until now was fang lair hm as a nb tank ,rest just needed a bit of practice.
Sidenote: My healer gives a *** if i play dk or nb, no need to carry me.
I havent mentioned shadow ulti, because in a raid u use horn, nothing else.
Have a nice day guys/girls.
Awesome response, tysm!
one thing though about DK tank - you said they were basically only best because of Engulfing Flames. Would that no longer be the case if Mag DK DPS was viable again? I've heard it was pretty high on PTS.
The thing is, if mag dk will be viable again, i know a few engame tanks that are high in the leaderboards that want to switch to stam nb tank for ultgen (20 ult on potion usage) like hell while wearing torugs/alkosh/bloodspawn or ebon/alkosh/bloodspawn. In most fights you could aswell (thats what i do, use invigorating drain for 15 ult over 3 secs).
So ult gen will be the reason to go for nb tanks, u can play them like a dk, just takes more poractice and u need to get out of your comfort zone. Argonian is not needed, but i think u can imagine how it is to chunk a pot every 21 secs and get around 14k ressources back ^^. But that is nothing new, a lot of tanks allready had the same build idea when summerset pre pts notes dropped.
If u go for 3x potioncooldownglyph on infused jewelry u can reduce the potion cooldown to 21 seconds.
You may be afraid of dropping block cost enchants, but after some tests and a talk with failr, they are not really needed.
Same goes for siphoning strikes, i mainly used it for the heal on light attacks, and the stam restore is pathetic, since u gain the same ammount with 1 heavy attack.
ps: Thanks to the new Dark Cloak heal, i can drop path, siphoning and eventually swallow soul from my bar. So theres plenty of room for other stuff. If i find the time i can post what my build looks like on live, and what it will look on summerset when it drops and zos does no massive changes. I have on live no probs to play raids (vet hm) with my nb, and summerset is such a huge buff, that i dont need christmas presents this year
There are allready ppl claiming that the 20 ult on pation consume is op, or that the cd reduce on potions is to strong(actually bugged on pts, can get it down to 3 secs) but i think it gives nb´s a special way to build, that no other class has. Cant see anything op here dk still has best ressource management.
Link to block cost calc if anyone needs.
https://jscalc.io/embed/jmkkL11hrPP1Ym94
Good to hear, ty for the insightful responses!0 -
aeowulf✭✭✭✭✭
your point being? because all tanks have those NB tanks can't use them? or that then it's not actually supporting the group? and again i'm going to make the point that not all tanks/tank builds work the same.all tanks have fracture (from puncture - granting taunt)
all tanks have maim (nb will just have the option of AE using magicka, but loosing minor heroism and 100% uptime)
DK shield is magicka, and grants them stamina
My point was some classes are able to supply more than fracture/maim etc.Jerkling wrote:
No, they do have the second worst sustain. That is not the same as knowing how to sustain.Jerkling wrote:
I found the issue was more of a lack of AE attention grabbing/root. Chains was swarm mother-able. It was historically sap essence that kept the mobs focused.Jerkling wrote:
what this is telling me is that like in most games ppl tend to go for the optimal, most efficient or OP classes for a certain role because they don't want to feel like they are missing out or be told by others that their choice is "subpar" because it's not the current meta.Right now NB tanks are undeniably missing from ESO. Does this not tell you enough? So are templar tanks, dk healers, stamplars are rare as, sorc tanks too.
NB tanks need <something> that's useful or at least fun, and the resources to cast it. Other tanks get something, be it AE root, or chains or group shield or whatever. some of it is emulated by non-class skills. That doesn't make the class better though. There is nothing a NB tank can do that another can't.
Were you around much before Morrowind? NB tanks were not meta, nor the most desired, optimal or efficient, but they were a lot of fun. They were played by a lot of people.
I'm looking forward to Summerset, I can see some improvements coming. Not just for NB tanks, but i'm hoping to see more classes in their under-played roles in vet finder 0 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭I find the forced nightblade-tanking idea ZOS is running with ridiculous. Can you think of a class less suited to holding their ground? Not saying it cant be done...but ZOS shouldn't try to force it with this type of change...DKs dont make good healers...nightblades dont make good tanks. For those who want to play the classes that way, they should be imaginative and overcome the obstacles themselves instead of ZOS trying to force roles that dont fit the class well0 -
KRBMMO✭✭✭✭
says who? have you ever actually played a NB tank? it's true that NBs are lacking in CC but if you have a good group you won't need it anyways since trash gets cleared fast and imho NB tanks are hands down the most OP boss tanks there are if you know how to play them. I can solo alot/most dungeon bosses on vet HM with mine if need be (just takes forever) and the sustain is infinite even w/o popping any potions.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »First why do we need a tanking skill we don’t have powers to make use good tanks. [...]
if you really believe that then you have clearly no idea how to NB tank or how to adjust your abilities and/or gear to specific tasks in a fight...kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »[...] Everyone does not need to be half *** tanks. Nightblade Tanks will never be as good as DKs or Wardens. [...]
again, says who (not the people are being sick part but the endgame tank part)? i keep seing templar tanks being used as much as DKs and being equally viable.Silver_Strider wrote: »[...] people are sick of it being the only consistent endgame tank for 4 f***ing years. Warden was a breathe of fresh air after nothing but DK tanks and while still not on the same level as DK, are fairly close. [...]
also, my NB tank can tank The Serpents bomb thingy in vSO HM. can yours? [i mean no offense by that, just trying to show that all classes are able to be consistens endgame tanks]
To answer the 'says who' part - basically everyone who runs build websites on the internet, so the likes of @Alcast etc. Also @woeler, who is most definately up there amongst the ranks of the best tanks in ESO. Usually with a 'this build is suitable for...' comment. Only DK & warden are in that category. Also literally everyone else that was playing a non-DK tank before Morrowind.
There is a lot more to tanking than just standing there taking a beating.
I am VERY suspicious of youtubers myself. Their builds inevitably fall into three categories:
a) Very specific items you have to grind for weeks to get
b) OP items & skills that are inevitably going to be nerfed and require you to watch & grind in a month or two
c) Specific muscle memory or skills that the youtuber has that the build relies upon.
d) millions in gold to build specific pots every minute in PvP
Sure, watch the videos but remember their goal is not to give you a long-term build in ESO. Their goal is to get you to come back and watch their videos every few weeks.
1 -
Darkonflare15✭✭✭✭✭I find the forced nightblade-tanking idea ZOS is running with ridiculous. Can you think of a class less suited to holding their ground? Not saying it cant be done...but ZOS shouldn't try to force it with this type of change...DKs dont make good healers...nightblades dont make good tanks. For those who want to play the classes that way, they should be imaginative and overcome the obstacles themselves instead of ZOS trying to force roles that dont fit the class well
Zos is not forcing anything. They are only trying to improve something. Nightblade tanks have been in the game for years. Just look at the passives in the Shadow skill line.1 -
aeowulf✭✭✭✭✭I find the forced nightblade-tanking idea ZOS is running with ridiculous. Can you think of a class less suited to holding their ground? Not saying it cant be done...but ZOS shouldn't try to force it with this type of change...DKs dont make good healers...nightblades dont make good tanks. For those who want to play the classes that way, they should be imaginative and overcome the obstacles themselves instead of ZOS trying to force roles that dont fit the class well
But they used to have a very effective & unique way of tanking, it was not forced at all. Nor was the skill it used changed in the slightest. All that happened was the sustain required to run that way was removed. It was imaginative, and it did overcome the obstacles you mentioned. NB were the masters of sustain, and now they are rock bottom with templars. The class based changes were not thought through, nor were they balanced.Edited by aeowulf on April 26, 2018 10:07PM1 -
Tigeracer✭✭✭✭I am seeing a lot of arguments here, mostly over sap tanks. Do you all realise that there are other ways to tank?
I play a stamblade tank and I’ve been able to tank almost everything in this game POST-MORROWIND NERFS! And I’m not even set up properly with CP!
My stamblade is mostly a dps, but with the OP alpha gear add on, I just change my sets and I’m good to go.
I’ve tanked every vet dungeon up to whatever was before the dragon bones patch (haven’t got the funds for DBs just yet). I’ve also tanked the Craglorn trials in vet (not hard mode, as the guild that lets me tank aren’t ready for that yet).
Now, I’m not going to say this is easy though, I do find it takes good knowledge of the battles, as I can struggle with sustain (but I only use trash pots, so maybe crafted ones will help there). I also know for a fact that a DK can do exactly the same thing, as I’ve been in situations where the dk made things much easier.
The dark cloak change is a little annoying, because my stamblade probably won’t be able to use it (as I use cloak for pvp), but there is nothing actually forcing us to use it. We can just continue without it and find other ways of surviving.
Tl:dr - don’t always go with the meta and you might find you’ll do better1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am seeing a lot of arguments here, mostly over sap tanks. Do you all realise that there are other ways to tank?
I play a stamblade tank and I’ve been able to tank almost everything in this game POST-MORROWIND NERFS! And I’m not even set up properly with CP!
My stamblade is mostly a dps, but with the OP alpha gear add on, I just change my sets and I’m good to go.
I’ve tanked every vet dungeon up to whatever was before the dragon bones patch (haven’t got the funds for DBs just yet). I’ve also tanked the Craglorn trials in vet (not hard mode, as the guild that lets me tank aren’t ready for that yet).
Now, I’m not going to say this is easy though, I do find it takes good knowledge of the battles, as I can struggle with sustain (but I only use trash pots, so maybe crafted ones will help there). I also know for a fact that a DK can do exactly the same thing, as I’ve been in situations where the dk made things much easier.
The dark cloak change is a little annoying, because my stamblade probably won’t be able to use it (as I use cloak for pvp), but there is nothing actually forcing us to use it. We can just continue without it and find other ways of surviving.
Tl:dr - don’t always go with the meta and you might find you’ll do better
This. This is a good player here. He can tank without min/maxing. Why force him to change morphs every time?
There are other unused skillsEdited by GeorgeBlack on April 26, 2018 11:35PM1 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »The dark cloak change is a little annoying, because my stamblade probably won’t be able to use it (as I use cloak for pvp),but there is nothing actually forcing us to use it. We can just continue without it and find other ways of surviving.
Tl:dr - don’t always go with the meta and you might find you’ll do better
This. This is a good player here. He can tank without min/maxing. Why force him to change morphs every time?
There are other unused skills
He didnt say anything about him being forced to change morphs. *facepalm*
You are literally taking things out of context right now just to suit your agenda.Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RavenSworn wrote: »GeorgeBlack wrote: »The dark cloak change is a little annoying, because my stamblade probably won’t be able to use it (as I use cloak for pvp),but there is nothing actually forcing us to use it. We can just continue without it and find other ways of surviving.
Tl:dr - don’t always go with the meta and you might find you’ll do better
This. This is a good player here. He can tank without min/maxing. Why force him to change morphs every time?
There are other unused skills
He didnt say anything about him being forced to change morphs. *facepalm*
You are literally taking things out of context right now just to suit your agenda.
What agenda you clown. I dont have a Nightblade.
Answer me why you want to link/lock tanking with Cloak when there are so many skills to use instead. You are being antagonostic for petty reasons. How sad, useless, unproductive and selfish.Edited by GeorgeBlack on April 27, 2018 2:11AM0 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »I am seeing a lot of arguments here, mostly over sap tanks. Do you all realise that there are other ways to tank?
I play a stamblade tank and I’ve been able to tank almost everything in this game POST-MORROWIND NERFS! And I’m not even set up properly with CP!
My stamblade is mostly a dps, but with the OP alpha gear add on, I just change my sets and I’m good to go.
I’ve tanked every vet dungeon up to whatever was before the dragon bones patch (haven’t got the funds for DBs just yet). I’ve also tanked the Craglorn trials in vet (not hard mode, as the guild that lets me tank aren’t ready for that yet).
Now, I’m not going to say this is easy though, I do find it takes good knowledge of the battles, as I can struggle with sustain (but I only use trash pots, so maybe crafted ones will help there). I also know for a fact that a DK can do exactly the same thing, as I’ve been in situations where the dk made things much easier.
The dark cloak change is a little annoying, because my stamblade probably won’t be able to use it (as I use cloak for pvp), but there is nothing actually forcing us to use it. We can just continue without it and find other ways of surviving.
Tl:dr - don’t always go with the meta and you might find you’ll do better
This. This is a good player here. He can tank without min/maxing. Why force him to change morphs every time?
There are other unused skills
1) Discussion was never about the Viability of X class as Y role. The discussion is about what does X class offer as Y role. NB offers little to nothing over any class as a Tank, which is the main problem with them going into Summerset since several other problems are going to be address.
2) Player Skill =/= Balanced gameplay. I've seen terrible DK tanks and great Templar Tanks, doesn't mean a damn thing other than player skill levels vary.
3) How do you know that Dark Cloak isn't underutilized? I mean, the difference between Shadowy Disguise and Dark Cloak is that Dark Cloak is completely useless in PvE and in PvP, both cloaks have situational usage but I'd still say the crit heals from Shadowy Disguise was better than the Minor Protection from Dark Cloak. For all intent and purposes, Dark Cloak was very niche in what it did whereas Shadowy Disguise at least had some practical functionality to it.Edited by Silver_Strider on April 27, 2018 5:09AMArgonian forever1 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »GeorgeBlack wrote: »I am seeing a lot of arguments here, mostly over sap tanks. Do you all realise that there are other ways to tank?
I play a stamblade tank and I’ve been able to tank almost everything in this game POST-MORROWIND NERFS! And I’m not even set up properly with CP!
My stamblade is mostly a dps, but with the OP alpha gear add on, I just change my sets and I’m good to go.
I’ve tanked every vet dungeon up to whatever was before the dragon bones patch (haven’t got the funds for DBs just yet). I’ve also tanked the Craglorn trials in vet (not hard mode, as the guild that lets me tank aren’t ready for that yet).
Now, I’m not going to say this is easy though, I do find it takes good knowledge of the battles, as I can struggle with sustain (but I only use trash pots, so maybe crafted ones will help there). I also know for a fact that a DK can do exactly the same thing, as I’ve been in situations where the dk made things much easier.
The dark cloak change is a little annoying, because my stamblade probably won’t be able to use it (as I use cloak for pvp), but there is nothing actually forcing us to use it. We can just continue without it and find other ways of surviving.
Tl:dr - don’t always go with the meta and you might find you’ll do better
This. This is a good player here. He can tank without min/maxing. Why force him to change morphs every time?
There are other unused skills
1) Discussion was never about the Viability of X class as Y role. The discussion is about what does X class offer as Y role. NB offers little to nothing over any class as a Tank, which is the main problem with them. The
2) Player Skill =/= Balanced gameplay. I've seen terrible DK tanks and great Templar Tanks, doesn't mean a damn thing other than player skill levels vary.
3) How do you know that Dark Cloak isn't underutilized? I mean, the difference between Shadowy Disguise and Dark Cloak is that Dark Cloak is completely useless in PvE and in PvP, both cloaks have situational usage but I'd still say the crit heals from Shadowy Disguise was better than the Minor Protection from Dark Cloak. For all intent and purposes, Dark Cloak was very niche in what it did whereas Shadowy Disguise at least had some practical functionality to it.
DK is top tank and nothing comes close to it.
How is what class brings what to the group relevant to the discussion I started?
Back to the topic....
Do you realize that by locking a tanking skill in Cloak(NOT DARK CLOAK, THE WHOLE BASE SKILL) you force all NB to create a whole new character simply for tanking, which still remains bellow DK?
You force them to make a whole new character to tank, and still the wont be the prefered option.
So why forbid them from simply using SnB heavy and another skill that helps them tank by going ahead with the proposed changes to this CENTRAL to the class skill.Edited by GeorgeBlack on April 27, 2018 5:16AM0 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It doesnt get more simple than that....
By going ahead with changes to Dark Cloak you force ppl to make new tankNB characters that are still WORSE (no matter how much you min/max them) than DKs.
Use another skill so that people wont have to change all the morphs every time they wanna play a different role.
You will wait for a long time before Zos goes ahead and making it so that we can change a single morph. Dont hold your breath.1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »It doesnt get more simple than that....
By going ahead with changes to Dark Cloak you force ppl to make new tankNB characters that are still WORSE (no matter how much you min/max them) than DKs.
Use another skill so that people wont have to change all the morphs every time they wanna play a different role.
You will wait for a long time before Zos goes ahead and making it so that we can change a single morph. Dont hold your breath.
What role REQUIRES cloak? For what purpose does one need to constantly swap Shadowy Disguise and Dark Cloak at all? Why are you suddenly "forced" to make a NB tank with this change?
Let's put it this way, you state that NBs can tank just fine without this new Dark Cloak. If that is the case, you don't need Dark Cloak and can opt to take Shadowy Disguise and continue on your way as it is currently on Live. Nothing will have changed, you can do everything you want to your hearts content, be merry and gay, etc, etc, etc. How does this 1 change suddenly require respeccing Cloak whenever you want to do something other than Tank? Invisibility is useless in Dungeons and Trials, isn't necessary for overworld, and is more or less a convenience thing in general. Only place invisibility would really matter is in PvP and while playing a NB without invisibility can be more daunting an order, it's not impossible either, especially since any good player can keep you out of cloak anyways.
Everything you are saying is fallacy.Argonian forever2 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Silver_Strider wrote: »GeorgeBlack wrote: »It doesnt get more simple than that....
By going ahead with changes to Dark Cloak you force ppl to make new tankNB characters that are still WORSE (no matter how much you min/max them) than DKs.
Use another skill so that people wont have to change all the morphs every time they wanna play a different role.
You will wait for a long time before Zos goes ahead and making it so that we can change a single morph. Dont hold your breath.
What role REQUIRES cloak? For what purpose does one need to constantly swap Shadowy Disguise and Dark Cloak at all? Why are you suddenly "forced" to make a NB tank with this change?
Let's put it this way, you state that NBs can tank just fine without this new Dark Cloak. If that is the case, you don't need Dark Cloak and can opt to take Shadowy Disguise and continue on your way as it is currently on Live. Nothing will have changed, you can do everything you want to your hearts content, be merry and gay, etc, etc, etc. How does this 1 change suddenly require respeccing Cloak whenever you want to do something other than Tank? Invisibility is useless in Dungeons and Trials, isn't necessary for overworld, and is more or less a convenience thing in general. Only place invisibility would really matter is in PvP and while playing a NB without invisibility can be more daunting an order, it's not impossible either, especially since any good player can keep you out of cloak anyways.
Everything you are saying is fallacy.
Who says that everybody wants to make a new char to tank in PvE?
Answer this simple question
When did I stated that NB does tank fine without a new tanking skill?. You are all over the place
CAN YOU REALLY NOT FIND A MORPH BESIDES DARK CLOAK THAT COULD BE CHANGED TO HELP NB TANK BETTER?
ARE YOU THAT IRRELEVANT?Edited by GeorgeBlack on April 27, 2018 8:06AM0 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »RavenSworn wrote: »GeorgeBlack wrote: »The dark cloak change is a little annoying, because my stamblade probably won’t be able to use it (as I use cloak for pvp),but there is nothing actually forcing us to use it. We can just continue without it and find other ways of surviving.
Tl:dr - don’t always go with the meta and you might find you’ll do better
This. This is a good player here. He can tank without min/maxing. Why force him to change morphs every time?
There are other unused skills
He didnt say anything about him being forced to change morphs. *facepalm*
You are literally taking things out of context right now just to suit your agenda.
What agenda you clown. I dont have a Nightblade.
Answer me why you want to link/lock tanking with Cloak when there are so many skills to use instead. You are being antagonostic for petty reasons. How sad, useless, unproductive and selfish.
Namecalling huh? You don't have a nightblade and you presume for other nightblades? You don't agree with my opinion, that's your call, I respect that. But when you start Namecalling, I will quote your own words then:
"You are being antagonistic for petty reasons. How sad, useless, unproductive and selfish."
Alright here we go:
When wardens were introduced, it set a template for ZoS to change the perception on the rest of the classes. While the classes were played to their strengths (dks tanking, Templar healing, that sort of thing) it wasn't what they originally planned. "play what you want" was the bill and if a nightblade or a sorcerer wanted to heal, all They had to do was to use the right weapon and they can do the role.
Now the thing with mmos in general is that the community tend to fluctuate and mend their plystyles towards the best class, best weapons, best role for their specific gameplay. Hence, why DK stayed as the best tank in pve, regardless if Templar might be better suited for certain fights or nbs might be great for another. (DK passives and toolkits are also the best for tanking, none withstanding)
But the wardens introduced something that the devs wanted to change, which was a clearer definition of the class skill trees. Tanking, healing dps etc. Each class now has a much defined skill tree.
So comes the nightblades. Shadow became a defensive tanking tree, Siphon becomes the healing tree while assassin naturally is dps. But remnants of the older versions of the class remains, like blur being in the assassin tree but widely used as a tanking tool. (not gonna go into sap tanking as that is honestly a niche part of nb tanking, albeit a really fun one)
Now cloak is in the shadow tree. Which technically means it is in the tanking tree. But I gather, from the numerous builds and numerous vids that dark cloak (the other morph) isn't in the forte of either healer, tank or dps builds. Except for niche builds. That's why the devs chose that morph. Minor protection for a cloak skill doesn't have much use outside of pvp.
I agree with the fact that cloak doesn't have anything to do with tanking. But this new iteration of cloak, one that does not give cloak but a heal, with the added bonus of a minor protection buff (I would argue the buff should be longer for it to be effective.) and also activating shadow passives, helps with tanking tremendously.
Can other abilities be used for this change? Perhaps aspect of terror? Not really, since both morphs are used in pvp, depending on your playstyle. Perhaps veiled strike? Nope, both morphs are actively used in pve and pvp. Maybe shades? Shades themselves had a change, including an aoe minor maim debuffs (it would have been better if it was stamina steal but I digress.)
Maybe we can use skills from other tree? Maybe debilitate or crippling grasp? Again, it's quite the use for pvp, though I would argue for debilitate to return resource depending on players max resource. Perhaps reapers Mark? But that already has a health return on kill. It does seem that dark cloak is the best choice for change, given also how most of the community nightblades (discounting yourself, since you don't have a nightblade, as you had said it yourself) seem to take this change positively.
I hope it answers your question succinctly. Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!2 -
GeorgeBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RavenSworn wrote: »GeorgeBlack wrote: »RavenSworn wrote: »GeorgeBlack wrote: »The dark cloak change is a little annoying, because my stamblade probably won’t be able to use it (as I use cloak for pvp),but there is nothing actually forcing us to use it. We can just continue without it and find other ways of surviving.
Tl:dr - don’t always go with the meta and you might find you’ll do better
This. This is a good player here. He can tank without min/maxing. Why force him to change morphs every time?
There are other unused skills
He didnt say anything about him being forced to change morphs. *facepalm*
You are literally taking things out of context right now just to suit your agenda.
What agenda you clown. I dont have a Nightblade.
Answer me why you want to link/lock tanking with Cloak when there are so many skills to use instead. You are being antagonostic for petty reasons. How sad, useless, unproductive and selfish.
Namecalling huh? You don't have a nightblade and you presume for other nightblades? You don't agree with my opinion, that's your call, I respect that. But when you start Namecalling, I will quote your own words then:
"You are being antagonistic for petty reasons. How sad, useless, unproductive and selfish."
Alright here we go:
When wardens were introduced, it set a template for ZoS to change the perception on the rest of the classes. While the classes were played to their strengths (dks tanking, Templar healing, that sort of thing) it wasn't what they originally planned. "play what you want" was the bill and if a nightblade or a sorcerer wanted to heal, all They had to do was to use the right weapon and they can do the role.
Now the thing with mmos in general is that the community tend to fluctuate and mend their plystyles towards the best class, best weapons, best role for their specific gameplay. Hence, why DK stayed as the best tank in pve, regardless if Templar might be better suited for certain fights or nbs might be great for another. (DK passives and toolkits are also the best for tanking, none withstanding)
But the wardens introduced something that the devs wanted to change, which was a clearer definition of the class skill trees. Tanking, healing dps etc. Each class now has a much defined skill tree.
So comes the nightblades. Shadow became a defensive tanking tree, Siphon becomes the healing tree while assassin naturally is dps. But remnants of the older versions of the class remains, like blur being in the assassin tree but widely used as a tanking tool. (not gonna go into sap tanking as that is honestly a niche part of nb tanking, albeit a really fun one)
Now cloak is in the shadow tree. Which technically means it is in the tanking tree. But I gather, from the numerous builds and numerous vids that dark cloak (the other morph) isn't in the forte of either healer, tank or dps builds. Except for niche builds. That's why the devs chose that morph. Minor protection for a cloak skill doesn't have much use outside of pvp.
I agree with the fact that cloak doesn't have anything to do with tanking. But this new iteration of cloak, one that does not give cloak but a heal, with the added bonus of a minor protection buff (I would argue the buff should be longer for it to be effective.) and also activating shadow passives, helps with tanking tremendously.
Can other abilities be used for this change? Perhaps aspect of terror? Not really, since both morphs are used in pvp, depending on your playstyle. Perhaps veiled strike? Nope, both morphs are actively used in pve and pvp. Maybe shades? Shades themselves had a change, including an aoe minor maim debuffs (it would have been better if it was stamina steal but I digress.)
Maybe we can use skills from other tree? Maybe debilitate or crippling grasp? Again, it's quite the use for pvp, though I would argue for debilitate to return resource depending on players max resource. Perhaps reapers Mark? But that already has a health return on kill. It does seem that dark cloak is the best choice for change, given also how most of the community nightblades (discounting yourself, since you don't have a nightblade, as you had said it yourself) seem to take this change positively.
I hope it answers your question succinctly.
I would suggest you go back and find my suggestion for an alternative tanking tool.0 -
Woeler✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
says who? have you ever actually played a NB tank? it's true that NBs are lacking in CC but if you have a good group you won't need it anyways since trash gets cleared fast and imho NB tanks are hands down the most OP boss tanks there are if you know how to play them. I can solo alot/most dungeon bosses on vet HM with mine if need be (just takes forever) and the sustain is infinite even w/o popping any potions.kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »First why do we need a tanking skill we don’t have powers to make use good tanks. [...]
if you really believe that then you have clearly no idea how to NB tank or how to adjust your abilities and/or gear to specific tasks in a fight...kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »[...] Everyone does not need to be half *** tanks. Nightblade Tanks will never be as good as DKs or Wardens. [...]
again, says who (not the people are being sick part but the endgame tank part)? i keep seing templar tanks being used as much as DKs and being equally viable.Silver_Strider wrote: »[...] people are sick of it being the only consistent endgame tank for 4 f***ing years. Warden was a breathe of fresh air after nothing but DK tanks and while still not on the same level as DK, are fairly close. [...]
also, my NB tank can tank The Serpents bomb thingy in vSO HM. can yours? [i mean no offense by that, just trying to show that all classes are able to be consistens endgame tanks]
To answer the 'says who' part - basically everyone who runs build websites on the internet, so the likes of @Alcast etc. Also @woeler, who is most definately up there amongst the ranks of the best tanks in ESO. Usually with a 'this build is suitable for...' comment. Only DK & warden are in that category. Also literally everyone else that was playing a non-DK tank before Morrowind.
There is a lot more to tanking than just standing there taking a beating.
I am VERY suspicious of youtubers myself. Their builds inevitably fall into three categories:
a) Very specific items you have to grind for weeks to get
b) OP items & skills that are inevitably going to be nerfed and require you to watch & grind in a month or two
c) Specific muscle memory or skills that the youtuber has that the build relies upon.
d) millions in gold to build specific pots every minute in PvP
Sure, watch the videos but remember their goal is not to give you a long-term build in ESO. Their goal is to get you to come back and watch their videos every few weeks.
Edit. Ugh nevermind.Edited by Woeler on April 27, 2018 9:45AM1 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GeorgeBlack wrote: »Silver_Strider wrote: »GeorgeBlack wrote: »It doesnt get more simple than that....
By going ahead with changes to Dark Cloak you force ppl to make new tankNB characters that are still WORSE (no matter how much you min/max them) than DKs.
Use another skill so that people wont have to change all the morphs every time they wanna play a different role.
You will wait for a long time before Zos goes ahead and making it so that we can change a single morph. Dont hold your breath.
What role REQUIRES cloak? For what purpose does one need to constantly swap Shadowy Disguise and Dark Cloak at all? Why are you suddenly "forced" to make a NB tank with this change?
Let's put it this way, you state that NBs can tank just fine without this new Dark Cloak. If that is the case, you don't need Dark Cloak and can opt to take Shadowy Disguise and continue on your way as it is currently on Live. Nothing will have changed, you can do everything you want to your hearts content, be merry and gay, etc, etc, etc. How does this 1 change suddenly require respeccing Cloak whenever you want to do something other than Tank? Invisibility is useless in Dungeons and Trials, isn't necessary for overworld, and is more or less a convenience thing in general. Only place invisibility would really matter is in PvP and while playing a NB without invisibility can be more daunting an order, it's not impossible either, especially since any good player can keep you out of cloak anyways.
Everything you are saying is fallacy.
Who says that everybody wants to make a new char to tank in PvE?
Answer this simple question
When did I stated that NB does tank fine without a new tanking skill?. You are all over the place
CAN YOU REALLY NOT FIND A MORPH BESIDES DARK CLOAK THAT COULD BE CHANGED TO HELP NB TANK BETTER?
ARE YOU THAT IRRELEVANT?By going ahead with changes to Dark Cloak you force ppl to make new tankNB characters that are still WORSE (no matter how much you min/max them) than DKs.
You stated that ZOS is forcing people to make new Tank NB characters, which is not even remotely true at all, it's opening up an option for NBs to be able to get some self healing in place of invisibility to help them improve their survivability in a way other than running off into Cloak all the time.This. This is a good player here. He can tank without min/maxing.
This, more ambiguous comment, lead me to believe you felt that NB tanks were fine but if not, I'll retract that part of my statement. Still doesn't change the fact that NBs aren't going to change anything in their builds to incorporate Dark Cloak or that NB tanks will somehow be unable to play DPS or Healers should they choose too and vice versa. I mean, if people can tank on their NBs now and be viable, other than the nerf to Strife and Path, nothing is fundamentally changing with NB to such an extent that they can't swap roles with a simple gear/ability swap.
As for finding a morph besides Dark Cloak for the Tank heal, I honestly can't because I've already thought of a few changes to the rest of NB's underutilized skills to help with Healing and Tanking.- Debilitate - Changed to grant Minor Lifesteal. Helps Healers and Tanks alike and makes the skill worth a damn.
- Malevolent Offering - I like the changes to the skill honestly. NB healers don't have to worry about killing themselves as much as they did before and we get a burst heal for allies to keep them alive. With the Strife and Path nerfs, NB healers are getting screwed that they might actually see this skill as a decent tool to utilize, instead of ignored like they currently do. If you change this into the Tank Heal instead, well you merely change the question of "Do I want to Tank or be Invisible?" to "Do I want to Tank or do I want to Heal?" Same negative outcome you're trying to avoid.
- Power Extraction - I'd prefer this be given the Minor Mangle debuff as a sort of group utility. Stamblades still won't use it in most cases but it might find its spot on a Tank Bar as a somewhat decent utility skill. Alternative idea would be to change it so that it applies a snare but people are sick of snares on everything and I personally prefer Minor Mangle.
- Manifestation of Terror - turned into a Charm effect to draw enemies towards a NB (Might be redundant now with Silver Leash). Alternative idea would be to change it into a Courage effect and buff up our allies with Minor Endurance/Intellect while it debuffs enemies
- Blur - Changed into a Group Evasion buff. NB tanks use it all the times anyways, might as well be made useful for the group as well.
- Reaper's Mark - Changed to increase damage enemies take in execute range.
People see only what they want to see, I see the full picture. If that makes me "Irrelevant" than so be it.
Now since I answered your question, answer me this.
Why do you care so much about this change when you don't have a NB yourself? (Which you stated in your other NB Cloak thread)Argonian forever1 -
stimpy986b14_ESO✭✭✭✭I like that they did something about the useless cloak morph for NB tanks. My issue is, NB tanks already had plenty of self heals with strife, path, and strikes. What we needed was a damage shield.1