GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

RavenSworn wrote: »

Wait what? In which situations are nb tanks needing stealth? Pvp? Pve? Bg? Vma?

Why dont you want to use another skill for tanking NBs? Why Cloak?
Answer

Because you will not be able to have cloak AND a massive heal that way. It's called balance.

Tell me what will u unslot to run the MASSIVE HEAL scaling of HP for your OP IDEA

Last time I checked, NBs had a passive that increased 3% their HP just by slotting shadow skills, so it's inetresting to get the possibilito of 3 shadow skills on the same bar for a quite interesting bonus (9%)

Cloak + shade + Ulti. And if you want a 4th, you can go either fear or path.

Anyone figured out yet if Dark cloak crits off of stam or mag? Or, even better, off of higher?

Yeah, I phrased that question badly. Thanks for the replies. I figured it was spell crit, but wanted to check.

It would be nice for Stam tanks if it chose the higher, though.

Every health-based and fixed value heal need to scale on whichever is higher. That's include dark cloak and a bunch of other skills.

Jerkling wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

[...] people are sick of it being the only consistent endgame tank for 4 f***ing years. Warden was a breathe of fresh air after nothing but DK tanks and while still not on the same level as DK, are fairly close. [...]

again, says who (not the people are being sick part but the endgame tank part)? i keep seing templar tanks being used as much as DKs and being equally viable.
also, my NB tank can tank The Serpents bomb thingy in vSO HM. can yours? [i mean no offense by that, just trying to show that all classes are able to be consistens endgame tanks]

By consistent, I mean throughout the game's lifespan. From launch, DK has been viable to tank, unlike every other class and some skills available today didn't have the same effects as back then (Mirage only offered Minor Resolve, Soul Siphon wasn't a burst heal, etc.)

Jerkling wrote: »

well, i can't agree. i think the problem lies in how people utilise tanks or how they are used to utilising a certain way of tanking with one class which might not necessarily work for another. there is also a huge difference between "active block" tanking and "damage shield" tanking and while one class obviously works best when used as an actively blocking tank the other might not.
you'd also have to take into account that people are not intantly good at tanking (or healing or doing damage for that matter), so it's only natural that one would become good faster with a class that is essentially tailored towards tanking. but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to be equally successful with another class or that other classes woulnd't be equally viable.

what does tanking actually come down to? it's 3 things - keep agro on your target(s), stay on top of the mechanic, don't die. that's the things you need to be able to do as a tank and i don't see DKs outperforming any other class at any of those (well, maybe sorcs, who knows).

That's the thing though, in order to not die, you need to have the resources to self sustain, at least for a few moments, and the abilities to help you survive. NBs had the sustain prior to Morrowind but not the abilities to help keep it alive when spike damage occurred, just HoTs, and that could often lead to a wipe. Now, we have the exact opposite problem in that, we have the skill but our sustain is tenuous at best. It's not that NB tanking is bad or not viable but when it comes to what a class brings to the role of Tanking, NBs are just scratching their heads in confusion. Our niche was infinite sustain and offheals but Morrowind gutted our sustain and Warden filled up the offheal niche better with extra utility to spare; We lost everything that made NB tanking engaging. The only thing left to build off of was Ultimate Regen and I'd argue Warden does that almost on par to NBs as well that it's just tiresome to try and build up for tanking when everything is stacked so heavily against you and continues to be further stacked every patch.

Jerkling wrote: »

well, i can't agree. i think the problem lies in how people utilise tanks or how they are used to utilising a certain way of tanking with one class which might not necessarily work for another. there is also a huge difference between "active block" tanking and "damage shield" tanking and while one class obviously works best when used as an actively blocking tank the other might not.
you'd also have to take into account that people are not intantly good at tanking (or healing or doing damage for that matter), so it's only natural that one would become good faster with a class that is essentially tailored towards tanking. but that doesn't mean that you wouldn't be able to be equally successful with another class or that other classes woulnd't be equally viable.

what does tanking actually come down to? it's 3 things - keep agro on your target(s), stay on top of the mechanic, don't die. that's the things you need to be able to do as a tank and i don't see DKs outperforming any other class at any of those (well, maybe sorcs, who knows).

If you disagree with what the community thinks a tank's job is, cool. Say that flat out instead of implying the people you're talking to don't know how to tank.

For most of us, a tank's job is to support the group and NBs lack class abilities & passives to give that support. "Tank survives" is introductory tanking; "group support" is intermediate and above. That means doing things like slotting sets & abilities that help the group survive and thrive, such as inflicting fracture/breach and maim, or positioning the enemies in ways that help the dps mow 'em down. For the life of the game, DKs have had an advantage in group support because they can offer so many buffs & debuffs; the ongoing changes to reduce permablock tanks have hurt the other classes without giving us group support abilities to offset it.

I've complained more than a few times that finding people who were willing to adapt to non-DK tank strategies was a pain even before Morrowind, and it's only gotten harder as the number of active NB tanks has shrunk. (Anyone else ever tell the healer "I need less than half the shards you think I do, but I'm going to move around a bit more" and then get chewed out by a dps for "not being a real tank"? Ah, good times.) And I agree that NBs make excellent dungeon tanks for base game and IC dungeons because they can do damage while holding enemies. (Path ) NB tanks used to be able to offer off-heals and good resource management to ease the healers' job even at the vet trial level, but since U14 our resource management is *** and we don't have group shields or buffs to offer (or even personal shields, since Annulment was made light-only).

Take the Domihaus fight in Falkreath Hold. Up until this update, DKs have had a massive advantage on this fight because they can:

1. pull the atronach adds into the party's aoe (Swarm Mother isn't aimable, and will sometimes try & pull Domihaus over instead of an atronach);
2. hold block without running out of resources (because dropping block when faced with 2+ enemies = being stunned = losing control of the fight, but no resources = no block); the indirect magicka -> stamina conversion in earthen heart is useful too
3. give group shields to help the party survive all that flaming aoe
4. Igneous Weapon's group buff grants major sorcery & brutality, making dps rotations easier and helping dps survive by letting them pop a potion for emergencies, not just for the buff
5. ranged stun & snare without using ice staff, in case you get on the wrong side of Domihaus from the atronachs

Holding Domihaus and the atronachs in place is all well and good until you run out of pillars and your dps wipe. Wardens are better off than the other classes, what with skills like Gate, and the changes to silver leash help a little bit, but still - DKs have an advantage here. And that's just one example, I'm sure other people can give you more.

RoyJade wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

For counter changes to the dark cloak this is actually one of the best suggestions i have heard so far. Most people just wanna have it all. The new heal and cloak. This suggestion fixes even my minor issue. As I main a Nightblade tank the only problem for me is some less important PVE content that i still do on my main: Stealing/DB-daily/collecting surveys ect. and i love to have the cloak in these situations!

That's exactly the type of content where cloak is amazing !
I hope they'll think about it seriously, especially because content outside of endgame pve and pvp is too often forgotten.

The morph tradeoff I hate, for similar reasons, is Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack. I love the Concealed Weapon speed buff so much I view it as essential to my thief/gatherer stamblade, but that means he can't have Surprise Attack, which means that many DPS builds are unavailable to him.

NBs were awesome tanks back when sap tanks were in their prime. NB skill set (pre-Morrowind) was perfect for sap tanking. Although they weren't as good as DKs, they were pretty darn good and brought utility to the group. Then, after the skills that enabled NBs to be pretty good tanks as well as healers got nerfed into oblivion, it was decided that each class should be able to perform as a dps, or healer or tanking role. But ... instead of giving us back the skills that synergized well with the rest of our tool kit (for tanking as well as for being a healer), we've gotten some strange replacement skills/skill changes .... kind of like we've been shaped into a square peg and been given a nail file to try to make ourselves fit into a round hole (this comment is not about NBs as a dps ... just saying).

I guess I'm just frustrated. Been trying out the new skills and they seem so underwhelming and sub-par for anything but vanilla content.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Also nice that'd be in the actual healing skill line where it belongs.

Why does everyone keep saying this like it's commonplace?

Dragon's Blood and Arctic Winds are both tantamount to Dark Cloak on their respective class and are all located in the TANK skill line of those classes, not the Healer Skill Line so it makes very little sense for them to move it there.

ccfeeling wrote: »

Please take Jerkling Nb tank build for your reference if u feel struggle with your NB tank toon

He passed all endgame content with this setting.

Boss Gear (all heavy, all infused, except jewls with "Glyph of Reduce Feat Cost")
2x Allmighty Chewdan
5x Plague Doctor
and either
5x Warrior-Poet if there is no War Horn in your group
or
5x Green Pact if there is

Huge HP build , no sturdy no block cost, not much pot as he mentioned , it will be fun to use this build in DLC HM contents.

The ways he gains stam with this build is leeching strikes, heavy Attacks, orb and shard and agron passive.
Thats why bone shield is slotted.

Ive used this build before, just for pvp trolling, much more fun in vamp stage.

I cant imagine the stam losing speed during blocking, this guy is amazing! He did it.

Any class can run this set up though as nothing really makes it unique besides the Major Evasion from Mirage. A Templar with that set up could easily slot Sun Shield, even are all the nerfs to it, and probably do more damage than a NB and a Warden has several skills that scale off of health as well that would probably be just as equally suited to use that set up as a NB, with probably better results to boot (More CC with Gripping Shards and Permafrost, as well as a bigger self heal with Arctic Winds, at least til Dark Cloak becomes a thing).

Jerkling wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

If you disagree with what the community thinks a tank's job is, cool. Say that flat out instead of implying the people you're talking to don't know how to tank.

i don't disagree with anyone on what a tanks job is and i'm also not implying that anyone/whoever doesn't know how to tank (if anything i would say it to their face, which i actually did prior in this conversation). so don't imply you are or are speaking for the communitiy and read again what i wrote and what's said in the post i'm replying to.

victoriana-blue wrote: »

For most of us, a tank's job is to support the group and NBs lack class abilities & passives to give that support. "Tank survives" is introductory tanking; "group support" is intermediate and above. That means doing things like slotting sets & abilities that help the group survive and thrive, such as inflicting fracture/breach and maim, or positioning the enemies in ways that help the dps mow 'em down. For the life of the game, DKs have had an advantage in group support because they can offer so many buffs & debuffs; the ongoing changes to reduce permablock tanks have hurt the other classes without giving us group support abilities to offset it.

I've complained more than a few times that finding people who were willing to adapt to non-DK tank strategies was a pain even before Morrowind, and it's only gotten harder as the number of active NB tanks has shrunk. (Anyone else ever tell the healer "I need less than half the shards you think I do, but I'm going to move around a bit more" and then get chewed out by a dps for "not being a real tank"? Ah, good times.) And I agree that NBs make excellent dungeon tanks for base game and IC dungeons because they can do damage while holding enemies. (Path ) NB tanks used to be able to offer off-heals and good resource management to ease the healers' job even at the vet trial level, but since U14 our resource management is *** and we don't have group shields or buffs to offer (or even personal shields, since Annulment was made light-only).

Take the Domihaus fight in Falkreath Hold. Up until this update, DKs have had a massive advantage on this fight because they can:

1. pull the atronach adds into the party's aoe (Swarm Mother isn't aimable, and will sometimes try & pull Domihaus over instead of an atronach);
2. hold block without running out of resources (because dropping block when faced with 2+ enemies = being stunned = losing control of the fight, but no resources = no block); the indirect magicka -> stamina conversion in earthen heart is useful too
3. give group shields to help the party survive all that flaming aoe
4. Igneous Weapon's group buff grants major sorcery & brutality, making dps rotations easier and helping dps survive by letting them pop a potion for emergencies, not just for the buff
5. ranged stun & snare without using ice staff, in case you get on the wrong side of Domihaus from the atronachs

Holding Domihaus and the atronachs in place is all well and good until you run out of pillars and your dps wipe. Wardens are better off than the other classes, what with skills like Gate, and the changes to silver leash help a little bit, but still - DKs have an advantage here. And that's just one example, I'm sure other people can give you more.

that's all good and well, but all you are really saying here is how good the utility skills of DKs are... which i never argued against.
what i'm arguing is the fact that you can indeed run a great NB tank and that DKs (and Wardens) aren't the only consistent tank classes for end game content. and the problem i believe i'm seeing is that most people expect all classes to work the same in a tank role, which i don't think is true.

I don't expect my NB tank to be the same as my DK tank but I would like if my NB tank offered something that my DK tank couldn't, which is why I've suggested some underutilized skills be altered to be more beneficial to group play, such as turning Debilitate into a Minor Lifesteal, having Blur be a group evasion instead of only affecting the NB and making Reaper's Mark buff the damage enemies take in execute range. It makes it so that NB utility is completely different from a DKs without stepping on any toes and there are actual trade offs for picking one class over the other.

DK - AoE interrupt, increases fire damage, more mitigation.

NB - Group Evasion, more execute damage, offhealing.