Do you want class identity or role diversity?

Marginis · April 2018

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

How about both?

Class identity includes all the different aspects of your gameplay experience playing that class and using the active and passive abilities.

It is not some arbitrary narrow scope like "DK must be tank, templar must be healer, nb must be dps" etc - theorycrafting in this game has always involved a lot more interesting and complex choices, even since beta. For a lot of us that's the most fun part of the game, coming up with our own build concepts.

I like that Nightblades have cloak. I like that Sorcerers have summons. I like that Dragonknights have whatever they have. I like class identity.

I like how all classes can be tanks. I like how all classes can be healers. I like how all classes can be DPS. I like role diversity.

Class identity and role diversity are not mutually exclusive; you can have both.

So it's nice that while classes keep their flavor and some of their "unique" abilities (Wardens also have summons, any class with a potion can cloak), they aren't forced into a certain role as much with the next patch. I like Nightblade flavor, but I also like to tank, and next patch this will be just a little bit easier, whereas currently people look down on me for combining those two.

Side note: Perfect gif for this. +1 to you @IcyDeadPeople

Dragath · April 2018

you can have both, its just more work.

Tholian1 · April 2018

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

Class identity of course. I chose my class for that reason. I didn’t choose it so I could be all roles in the game.

JWKe · April 2018

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

No point having a class identity. They are going to drop it like they dropped the three faction war as soon as things become inconvenient for them to maintain.

Tasear · April 2018

Overall I think it was well done job. There is people that were interested in certain underdeveloped class and role combinations but weren't able to do so. Still words to be had sure, but definitely a good job so far.

Doctordarkspawn · April 2018

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

If it comes down to it, I would like ever class to be good at a certain thing, maybe two, and for them to make that playstyle fun.

For instance, if one class must be a tank class, then let us give that class a definate feel and a way to solo content that isn't slow as balls.

This game tries to be wishy-washey with the holy trinity and it does not work.

nimander99 · April 2018

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

Elder Scrolls is all about being a Heavy Armor wearing Mage with two swords and a bow tanking healing and dropping bombs on Daedra.

Did I miss anything?

Aesthier · April 2018

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

As games get older the normalization begins with taking away the subclasses of a specialized class and turning them into the other two classes of the Trinity under the guise of "diversity".

Removing two subclasses on every class is not diversity.

Games do this because
1. It gets too costly for them to design content around all the different specializations those subclasses provide
2. It becomes harder as the game ages and players leave for remaining players to find all the specializations they need to complete content. (even though they don't need that anymore since people are complaining they can solo everything now.)
3. Players don't feel like going back and creating an entirely new toon just to be able to play a different class of the Trinity.

I thought ESO would be different.

I guess not.

Raraaku · April 2018

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

I think that both can be achieved. In that I mean, while any class can do any role, the flavor and mechanics of each class makes each role distinct from each other. Now will that mean there will be certain classes that are more popular for roles than others? Sure, healers that are Templars and Wardens come to mind as they have an entire healing skill line and passives. While a NB may have access to a defense buff, it's reliant on activation of a shadow skill, and only lasts half as long as a DK or Sorc defense buff. There are other examples out there.

Plus, I like not having to pick 1 or 2 classes out of 5 because they were created specifically for tanks. Being able to do any role in any class is great, but there is also inherent advantages to some classes over others. Those advantages might not translate to superiority over other classes, but rather more simplistic in how to approach the build and their mechanics.

Dasovaruilos · April 2018

I don't think one needs to exclude the other...

For example, you can make Templars a support/burst healer, Wardens a protective/delayed healer, NB a offensive/leeching HOT healers, DKs a shield/fixed AoE healer and so on.

You can make each class tank/DPS/heal with completely different styles without making them all the same.

It just need some effort and it is possible to make them all able to fullfil each role without making them all use the same exact skills.

VyersReaver · April 2018

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

Why can't we have both, through different methods of doing the same task? Like why Nightblade Heal has to sacrifice his unique skills to be as good as Templar Heal? Just a bit differently, i.e. Nightblade heals with HoT effects, so has a better raid-wide heal and Magicka efficiency, while Templar has burst heal for saving tanks. Sorcerer will have ground AoE heal, DK can give absorb and other active mitigation. Wardens can have like split heals, where he attaches a pet on a tank, and that tank receives 50% of what Warden heals to others.

It can be spread further, and the only barring factor right now are the numbers.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2018

I want class identity and im a PVP-Player

nimander99 wrote: »

Elder Scrolls is all about being a Heavy Armor wearing Mage with two swords and a bow tanking healing and dropping bombs on Daedra.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, you did. E.g. that a heay armored dw/bow mag sorc still won’t work very well in eso, even with the further diminishing of class identities.

Violynne · April 2018

The poll options are a bit skewed. Why only "PvE" or "PvP"? The option for both should be presented.

Now, for my choice: role diversity.

I have a hybrid alt who, for the most part, stays in my character list. I don't take it out much unless changes have been made (such as the upcoming Summerset). At some point in the future, I'm hoping this character will be viable, offering a way to mix magicka and stamina together for optimum performance.

Unfortunately, I don't see this coming any time soon. The damage calculator is based on the attribute pool, so a hybrid will always be weak in both mag and stam builds.

If the hybrid, who pools 50/50 in mag/stam can have those same damage outputs as class defined, then I'd say ESO has finally hit balance.

Hybrids can't exist (easily, anyway) without role diversity.

DanteYoda · April 2018

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

That's a community and player issue, not a game issue. Good players don't do this, only bad ones.

I would call it more of a bad mechanics issue maybe a meta issue.. Yes customers can be *** but the game is allowing them to be this way forcing everyone down the same generic paths, builds and races..

Pretty boring..

Tyrobag · April 2018

They don't have to be mutually exclusive. "Class Identity" doesn't mean only one class is able to tank properly, and only one class can heal properly. I like where they're going with making sure everybody has the tool set they need (no more "DK or gtfo"). That said I think they could do it without eviscerating the unique abilities that aren't essential to a role, like they've done & tried to do repeatedly with Sorc.

asuitandtyb14_ESO · April 2018

Honestly, I'd prefer no classes at all. Just countless skill trees representing every school of magic, weapon type, armour, faction, culture, race, etc

Numerikuu · April 2018

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

zyk wrote: »

Without identity, why have classes at all?

Amen.

I'm not against role diversity, but if that means reworking current skills that people use instead of adding brand new ones...yeah. No. Stop it.

(weeps for shattering rocks)

Tyrobag · April 2018

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, I'd prefer no classes at all. Just countless skill trees representing every school of magic, weapon type, armour, faction, culture, race, etc

That logic is unfortunately faulty. People who want that generally think that it would add diversity to the game, but it would do the exact opposite. If everybody had access to every ability it would create an Absolute Meta, one single build that everybody would use because it is the best. Right now we at least have a meta build for each class, and each class has something a bit different to offer. If you remove class restrictions that would no longer be the case.

Personally, I would love to be able to use abilities from different classes in the same build, but it just can't happen without ruining the game.

Marginis · April 2018

Tyrobag wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, I'd prefer no classes at all. Just countless skill trees representing every school of magic, weapon type, armour, faction, culture, race, etc

That logic is unfortunately faulty. People who want that generally think that it would add diversity to the game, but it would do the exact opposite. If everybody had access to every ability it would create an Absolute Meta, one single build that everybody would use because it is the best. Right now we at least have a meta build for each class, and each class has something a bit different to offer. If you remove class restrictions that would no longer be the case.

Personally, I would love to be able to use abilities from different classes in the same build, but it just can't happen without ruining the game.

One might assume that line of logic, however, because of diversity of players, and player wants and needs, there will still be a diversity of setups, due to the players' diversity carrying over. There would likely be a homogenizing of builds for those who are super competitive and follow the metagame closely though, like you said, and while following the meta is very important in the game as it stands right now, that might not be the case as much if they change the way the system is set up. What I'm saying is that while what you're saying makes sense, the actual impact of that happening, and the extent at which it happens, will be significantly more limited than you imply. Additionally, if the game is well balanced - new system or not - the need to follow the meta closely is significantly less than with a more poorly balanced game. If, for example, multiple classes could tank well, and "good" tanking wasn't limited to the Dragonknight, there does not exist the same need follow the meta; to play Dragonknight, to be "good".

AnviOfVai · April 2018

I want class identity and im a PVP-Player

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Without identity, why have classes at all?

Exactly . Might as well just make it Skyrim with a wheel of abilities .

DeadlyRecluse · April 2018

This isn't an either-or question, and I'm not an either-or player.

Xuhora · April 2018

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

This isn't an either-or question, and I'm not an either-or player.

Violynne wrote: »

The poll options are a bit skewed. Why only "PvE" or "PvP"? The option for both should be presented.

to all who are saying this: Yes you are right, Yes the Poll isnt answered that easy. But i did my apologies allready and im still happy about the discussion the poll started. Would be happy if all this comments were constructive comments on the topic rather than "poll is wrong mate".

Lysette · April 2018

This poll is flawed, because the wording and it's meaning is unclear. Does "role diversity" mean, that a class should be able to be viable in any role or that classes should have so diverse roles, that one cannot create a viable jack-of-all-trades character. The same goes to class identity - what does it even mean - does it mean, that the class is so different from the next one, that it actually matters, what class one chooses, because this choice excludes oneself from certain type of gameplay once made. Or does it just mean, that the way in which one approaches problems and situations is in a certain way, which is not the way in which other classes would approach it.

So dependent on how you interpret the meaning of those words, you choose an option, which the next person might interpret in a totally different way - this makes this poll flawed.

jokeaccount · April 2018

neither?

Wifeaggro13 · April 2018

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Diversity is fine as long as there is no push for equality of outcome. Some classes are going to rise to the top of a role, hammering them down or raising the others up to compensate would lead to a duller game and make classes irrelevant.

Any class in any role should be viable, not optimal.

Half the problem is lack of roles in eso, at the end of day your either dps with a taunt or dps with a heal. Lack of true utility and role definition only propagated elitist dps in end game as it was the main requirement for content completion and competitive rankings

This is very much a central issue to the discussion. Something that has always stuck out at me about ESO is that the tanking feels so loose. There is no calculated threat, barely even a concept of agro, and you have these tanks running around with such high health pools, mitigation, and self healing that they barely need to be healed at all. Coming from WoW and Rift, it was quite the shock

Because you have these godly tanks, healing becomes less important. Most fights also don't have mechanics where the dps / heals are taking continuous damage of any sort, or any particular cleanses / buffs / etc are needed or can't just be easily overhealed. Because of these factors, healing itself becomes an afterthought, and healers are suddenly expected to focus primarily on buffing and supporting the group.

It's unique, sure, but it's a unique in a way that I don't care for. I don't think it's a good direction for MMOs. I don't want to be a support role when I heal, I want to heal. Tanks should be able to hold groups of mods because there are threat tables and they have weighted values, and they should need healers to survive extended conflicts, especially with high level bosses. When these roles become grey and murky, identity itself is hard to nail down, and everything sort of blurs together into the mess we see now.

we identified this early in beta, and the response was it will emerge. the game was better defined up until about late 2015 to 2016. since then it has continually slid towards the GW2 style of definition. some of these dynamics could have been corrected early on with out disrupting their vision for combat. leaving true utility, real CC and aggro managment on the table as secondary features to their combat was short sighted.

coop500 · April 2018

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

In my over a year of playing experience, I've only been kicked twice for being the wrong race and this is when I do veteran DLC dungeons and a handful of vet trials with random guildies I never met.

Tyrobag · April 2018

coop500 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

In my over a year of playing experience, I've only been kicked twice for being the wrong race and this is when I do veteran DLC dungeons and a handful of vet trials with random guildies I never met.

I think its time for you to get a new guild. If people in your guild are treating others like that and not being removed, that isn't a guild you want to be a part of.

Menelaos · April 2018

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

Every class can do everything right now (or in the near future) and heal itself without needing a healer by wearing a set. It's becoming an amorphous mass of can-do-alls and FOTWs. The rest is wrobeled up.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO · April 2018

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

ITT: People acting like the best performing guilds aren't elitist or like the community of achieving individuals at large aren't.

To all you people "I want a reason to play a specific class!"

That reason should be ONLY because you like the way the class does it's stuff, or the theme, etc. If that's not good enough, what you're really saying is that

"I like this thing and I want it to have a statistical advantage because I don't have the skill to back up my desires to be the best at something and I don't want my feelings hurt, getting stomped by someone who I think is a tank/heal class out-dpsing me"

Same type of people crying that ret paladins shouldn't do competitive damage in vanilla wow.

coop500 · April 2018

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

Tyrobag wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

In my over a year of playing experience, I've only been kicked twice for being the wrong race and this is when I do veteran DLC dungeons and a handful of vet trials with random guildies I never met.

I think its time for you to get a new guild. If people in your guild are treating others like that and not being removed, that isn't a guild you want to be a part of.

Maybe, though I don't make much effort to get to know them, I just see 'so and so looking for one healer for XYZ thing' and I volunteer.

One of the times I was racially kicked was a PUG of a normal dungeon, as well, for being a khajiit healer. So to be fair that's one racial kick over like 14 months.