Do you want class identity or role diversity?

Turelus

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

That's a community and player issue, not a game issue. Good players don't do this, only bad ones.

badmojo

Diversity is fine as long as there is no push for equality of outcome. Some classes are going to rise to the top of a role, hammering them down or raising the others up to compensate would lead to a duller game and make classes irrelevant.

Any class in any role should be viable, not optimal.

purple-magicb16_ESO

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

Every class should have strengths and weaknesses so that other classes can compliment them. Jack of all trades classes should be watered down versions of all of them.

AlnilamE

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

My Bosmer Templar WW has never been kicked from a run either healing or tanking, so I don't know what to tell you.

AhPook_Is_Here

Both. I don't see any reason for those boxes to be exclusive.

Vapirko

I want class identity and im a PVP-Player

But I think there’s a good amount of cross over as is. I’d say I’m really somewhere in the middle. I’m fine that DKs can tank and DPS, that sorcs are mostly DPS, that NBs are DPS but have been tanks in certain patches and that Templars can heal, tank or DPS and so on. But I definitely don’t think ZOS needs to spend time on changing every class to be able to do all roles because it just weakens classes overall. The warden is a prime example of that even though they did it from scratch.

Gythral

Yes

zaria

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

AlnilamE wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

My Bosmer Templar WW has never been kicked from a run either healing or tanking, so I don't know what to tell you.

This
Players get kicked for beeing fake / bad healer or tanks , doing too low dps, don't follow mechanics after explained or die a lot not for class. Now trial groups it tend to be more about utility but vet trials is another level than dungeons.

badmojo

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

I am more interested in how a player does than what race they are. Being the correct race wont turn a bad player good.

Wifeaggro13

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

badmojo wrote: »

Diversity is fine as long as there is no push for equality of outcome. Some classes are going to rise to the top of a role, hammering them down or raising the others up to compensate would lead to a duller game and make classes irrelevant.

Any class in any role should be viable, not optimal.

Half the problem is lack of roles in eso, at the end of day your either dps with a taunt or dps with a heal. Lack of true utility and role definition only propagated elitist dps in end game as it was the main requirement for content completion and competitive rankings

DocFrost72

DanteYoda wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

You can, unless you're going for top rankings in leaderboads in PvE or trying to be the best 1vX player in the game.
I have played and continue to play with unoptimised players and they can clear content fine, player skill is way more important than any racial passives.

How does playing these unoptimized characters work in higher level dungeons when other players see you are a bosmer mage and dump you from teams or never invite you at all..

If a group dumped you for your racial before you ever hit trash, they are not good players. There's elite and elitist. Elite gets the job done, and anything that gets the job done is welcomed. Elitist is "META" or GTFO. These are the clowns no one likes. If you pull 30k on a bosmer magblade self buffed, no dungeon group but the elitists will turn you away.

To answer the topic: as a player (I enjoy both sides), I don't think these two concepts are exclusive, though if I were forced to pick only one? Diversity over "only this class can fulfill this role", which is so glaringly contrary to the idea of TES in the first place.

Anotherone773

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

I dont feel your choices are that great. I want classes to be unique rather than generic. Not all classes should be good at all roles. For example, NB should not be very good at healing. Sorcerers should be glass cannons. DKs should be great at tanking and melee dps. We should have a new class that is heal based. etc. etc.

The class system in ESO is more of an afterthought. In previous TES titles you could be a master of all trades and this bleeds over into ESO. In an MMO the master of all trades does not work well. Its fine for a game most will only play through once or twice and not pick up again for months or maybe never. But it doesnt work for MMOs.

There is to much focus on SP aspects in ESO and characters can do far to much "group" content solo that is suppose to be their level.

Honestly, i really like Rift's class system.

Kiralyn2000

zyk wrote: »

I've always been baffled at why some feel tank and healer archetype classes should deal damage as well as a dps class. I have never expected or wanted my Nightblades to heal as well as Templar or tank as well as a DK.

Well, in the case of "everyone needs to be able to DPS".... other MMOs came to the realization that even if someone picked a Tank or Healer class? They don't only run dungeons all the time. They needed to be able to do reasonable DPS during all the other things you do (questing, grinding, farming, etc) or their overall play experience was terrible.

Lock Tanks and Healers in to doing just that, and you have unusable characters except for the players who chain-run dungeons 24/7.

(see: playing a Holy Priest in early WoW. /ugh)


Now the other side of it - every class should be able to tank & heal...... eh, I got nothing there. /shrug

Without identity, why have classes at all?

Exactly . Might as well just make it Skyrim with a wheel of abilities .

Well, presumably you'd still have different playstyles/experience/etc doing the same tasks with different classes. (That's true with DPS, why wouldn't it be true for tanks & healers?) Of course, this assumes a combat system that actually allows different ways & methods of doing the same thing. ESO having the same block of weapons & weapon skills for every class homogenizes that a bit.

Guarlet

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

The question that came to my mind when I saw the title was: why not both? It's not impossible, DCUO for example does a fairly good job with having unique class identities mixed in with "every class can do different roles well."

But at the end of the day, class identity is more important to me. I picked my class in character creation for a reason dammit, lol.

efster

I want both, and I play both PVP and PVE. Class identity and role diversity are not mutually exclusive.

Kodrac

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

No to homogenization.

red_emu

I want class identity and im a PVP-Player

Soon your class will be only cosmetic. All abilities, passives and damage being the exact same, you will be able to find class skills in crown crates!

GimpyPorcupine

False dichotomy.

You can play every class as DPS, and yet all DPS characters don't feel the same.

The two best tanking classes (IMO) are DK and Warden, but tanking with them does not feel the same.

The two best healing classes (IMO) are Templar and Warden, but healing with them does not feel the same.

Heck, even my Breton DK and my Dunmer DK feel different.

emilyhyoyeon

I PVE and PVP, but PVP only casually. Ideally I would like role diversity with class balance, but idk if class identity is supposed to mean "less options but more balance" and role diversity "more options but less balance" or none of that. idk

Kodrac

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

You can play every class as DPS, and yet all DPS characters don't feel the same.

Wha? You never played stam DPS I guess. They're all the same.

DocFrost72

Kodrac wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

You can play every class as DPS, and yet all DPS characters don't feel the same.

Wha? You never played stam DPS I guess. They're all the same.

As a stam main, I will go on the books to say that they feel very different. Unless you mean "dots, heavy attacks, spammable" in which case there is no different forms of dps at all in the game.

GimpyPorcupine

Kodrac wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

You can play every class as DPS, and yet all DPS characters don't feel the same.

Wha? You never played stam DPS I guess. They're all the same.

So you say a Stam DK and a Stamplar feel the same. Wow, I must be doing something wrong.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Diversity is fine as long as there is no push for equality of outcome. Some classes are going to rise to the top of a role, hammering them down or raising the others up to compensate would lead to a duller game and make classes irrelevant.

Any class in any role should be viable, not optimal.

Half the problem is lack of roles in eso, at the end of day your either dps with a taunt or dps with a heal. Lack of true utility and role definition only propagated elitist dps in end game as it was the main requirement for content completion and competitive rankings

This is very much a central issue to the discussion. Something that has always stuck out at me about ESO is that the tanking feels so loose. There is no calculated threat, barely even a concept of agro, and you have these tanks running around with such high health pools, mitigation, and self healing that they barely need to be healed at all. Coming from WoW and Rift, it was quite the shock

Because you have these godly tanks, healing becomes less important. Most fights also don't have mechanics where the dps / heals are taking continuous damage of any sort, or any particular cleanses / buffs / etc are needed or can't just be easily overhealed. Because of these factors, healing itself becomes an afterthought, and healers are suddenly expected to focus primarily on buffing and supporting the group.

It's unique, sure, but it's a unique in a way that I don't care for. I don't think it's a good direction for MMOs. I don't want to be a support role when I heal, I want to heal. Tanks should be able to hold groups of mods because there are threat tables and they have weighted values, and they should need healers to survive extended conflicts, especially with high level bosses. When these roles become grey and murky, identity itself is hard to nail down, and everything sort of blurs together into the mess we see now.

srfrogg23

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

I like being able to tinker and experiment with different combinations of classes, roles, and abilities.

I’ve played my share of games with strict class/role combinations. They exist in droves. If that was what I enjoyed, I’d be playing those games instead.

Thorstienn

Why does everyone that chooses "identity" take it to the extreme? Diversity does not mean everyone tanks/heals/DPS exactly the same, by definition all classes would be diverse (having "identity") in the way that they achieve a diverse amount of roles.
As to the poll, too many options are missing; most notably: The 2 aren't mutually exclusive to an entertaining and "play as you want" kind of game.

Zhaedri

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

One of the reasons I love this game is the diversity available with builds, and that any class can fulfill any role with the right build.

Kodrac

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

GimpyPorcupine wrote: »

You can play every class as DPS, and yet all DPS characters don't feel the same.

Wha? You never played stam DPS I guess. They're all the same.

As a stam main, I will go on the books to say that they feel very different. Unless you mean "dots, heavy attacks, spammable" in which case there is no different forms of dps at all in the game.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I mean.

ArcVelarian

I want role diversity and im a PVE-Player

zyk wrote: »

Without identity, why have classes at all?

Honest to Talos, I think Classes might as well be a holdover from Alpha considering the direction of the rest of the game.

Spacemonkey

Both. No reason we cant have class identites while also having them diverse.

Lets take the Templar 'house' for example. It COULD really be the identity of the class (its really a joke , its 0 the class identity)
but it COULD. If the Templar house truly boosted them - beyond the limitations of the major/minor system that kind of makes the house a joke, templars could excel at any role as long as they stayed in their house, (or built their house everywhere they went).

it becomes their identity and fighting templars becomes unique in getting them out of their )@*@?? house.

Chain/Pull abilities or Fear would become the scourge of templars, and a must in any encounter with them.

Sekero

I want class identity and im a PVE-Player

DanteYoda wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of every class turning into a mag spell thrower or a stam dual wielder... Because nothing else can do very well from lv 1 to lv 50 and onwards...

Why the hell does this game even have an option to place health stats if by the end its meaningless... Why can't i play a mage assassin bosmer or a mage orc..

Races stats ruined ESO imo..

So honestly have no idea which to pick poll wise but this games skills need an overhaul to some thing other than stam or mag...

Very much this. I rolled a heavy armour s&b/2H "Healthplar" i.e. 64 points in health. He was unkillable, BUT he died of old age before clearing Deshaan as an EP character.