Solinur wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!

I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.

What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.

Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)

Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?

It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.

Do other stamina classes have access to empower?

Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).

DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)

2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)

---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.

Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)

Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.

After reading this and being puzzled at the idea, I tried replacing Sweeps with Solar Barrage. I lost around 4k DPS. This includes a full rotation with plenty of Light Attacks.

Barrage may hit higher than Sweeps per tick, but Sweeps hits 4 times a second, Barrage hits once every 2 seconds. The two are not even comparable DPS wise. I'm not sure where you guys are coming from on this one.

One cast of Sweeps deals less damage than one cast of barrage. So in a rotation (talking PvE here) you exchange one of the Sweeps with it. Barrage is like a dot, of course its useless recasting if before it runs out.

Ah, so you are replacing something else on your bar. Got it. Yes I mentioned earlier in the thread that SB is not a complete waste now and I found it broke even when I replaced the back bar Inner Light and used it in a rotation instead.

So it could even replace another DoT. This is definitively possible. I hate the cast time though. Would be nice if they added a pulse right at the beginning of SB when the cast ends. Right now it is a full 3 seconds from beginning of cast to the first tick of damage.

danno8 wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Solinur wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Cinbri thanks for the initial tests!

I'll need to create my 5pc shackle again before I can test if jabs dropped compared to live. They copied my toon before I made my shacklebreaker set.

What are your thoughts to buffing Templar through underused spells? I listed some above, maybe we can convince zos to make adjustments this patch on those abilities so that buff defensive/offensive abilities for Templars.

Well, for what its worth... I like some stamina way to get empower. Solar barrage as well as dark flare are just wasted on stamplar. (sry to say, but thats how it is, I am not sure wether magplars can get the buff this way... probably better to use mage guild skills, anyways)

Can you magplars spare one class ability morph for us? Do you use both morphs of sun fire ?

It's annoying because mage skills synergize better with instant cast abilities than channels. Solar barrage works better with jabs because you don't have to think about recasting it in between each jabs.

Do other stamina classes have access to empower?

Yes, NB with ambush (instant cast).

DKs could use empowering flame (it got buffed to 2 pulses empower, is instant cast and costs moderate magica <- edit: would not mind a 2 pulse magica based skill costing 4k mag giving me: a pull to an enemy, dealing [x] Flame Damage and granting you Empower,(2 pulses),
granting Major Expedition, for 6 seconds.
This attack cannot be dodged or reflected. Really I would take the mag cost with this any time!)

2H can use wreckling blow (instant cast)

---> its only templars that (again) got the clunky 1.1s channel mechanic tied to the buff ... Oh well, stamdens and stamsorcs didn't get anything which will rightfully be debated. But stamplars are screwed in 2 ways, they have access to the buff in theory and magplars even got 2 morphs to choose from. However, the choice would be use the clunky 1.1s channel or the clunky 1.1s channel. ... at least maplars may find usefull mage guild skills, stamplars not so much.

Solar Barrage gives 4x Empower now (after each pulse, every 2s). I did some testing and with the additional tick it seems to be about the same Damage, if not slightly better than Sweeps (without considering empower)

Toss in a light attack/Imbue Weapons rotation and you'll have a potent replacement for Sweeps. A replacement robbed of all the Templar soul and lacking everything that made the old Blazing Spear/Sweeps combo fun, but it will give you better numbers.

After reading this and being puzzled at the idea, I tried replacing Sweeps with Solar Barrage. I lost around 4k DPS. This includes a full rotation with plenty of Light Attacks.

Barrage may hit higher than Sweeps per tick, but Sweeps hits 4 times a second, Barrage hits once every 2 seconds. The two are not even comparable DPS wise. I'm not sure where you guys are coming from on this one.

One cast of Sweeps deals less damage than one cast of barrage. So in a rotation (talking PvE here) you exchange one of the Sweeps with it. Barrage is like a dot, of course its useless recasting if before it runs out.

Ah, so you are replacing something else on your bar. Got it. Yes I mentioned earlier in the thread that SB is not a complete waste now and I found it broke even when I replaced the back bar Inner Light and used it in a rotation instead.

So it could even replace another DoT. This is definitively possible. I hate the cast time though. Would be nice if they added a pulse right at the beginning of SB when the cast ends. Right now it is a full 3 seconds from beginning of cast to the first tick of damage.

We'll in my rotation I only have one Sweeps or now one Barrage. So I can completely replace it, but I even could use the one flex spot I have left. Also in a 8s rotation you will get th last pulse when you start casting the next barrage, the light attack just after will benefit from that last pulse from the previous, then the first pulse of the new will come.

Also thinking about monster sets.

This has already been said but stamplars need passive regeneration options. Sustain is a nightmare. I can sustain with 800 stam regen on my Stamdk but can't do the same with 2k regen on my stamplar.

Magplars need a class based access to major sorcery. Sustain is ok but could use a minor buff compared to other classes. And to beat a dead horse, we need major mending back as a class ability.

Minor Expedition granted by Hasty Prayer (morph of Healing Ritual) is not extended when using 5 pieces of Jorvuld's Guidance set. The movement speed bonus is 5 seconds with or without Jorvuld's.

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Can any NA Templars test jabs damage with their friends with exact setups on live and on pts. If damage higher - cp scaling was fixed, if not...

If someone wants to be a test dummy, let me know. I keep my exact setups on live and PTS.

@Joy_Division I might be able to be a test dummy for you Friday around lunchtime. Let me know and I'll partition some time.

I can do Friday around lunchtime (assuming EST). Let me know what time you partitioned and I'll make myself available.

Here's my comment again regarding underused abilities that we can use to compensate Templar for the healing nerfs and years of updating the mobilty of the game:

Right now Templar received no buffs to tanking and marginal healing fixes. Here are the abilities that could use changing:
- restoring aura
minor mag steal is outshined by ele drain. We have two options, either give this ability the shards resource and then let shards have a different effect, or give restoring aura a unique debuff that grants extra healing on dmg done to targets impacted by the AOE target).

- radiant ward
I don't want this to be mag based shield. I think this ability has the chance to be the defense Templars need to replace miss chance. It should be AOE, but grant a DOT to targets that has the ability to proc burning light. It should grant minor dodge chance, but retain the shield mechanic. This should help strengthen AOE dps and make it punishing for players to engage with Templars in melee range.

- explosive charge/toppling charge
Off balance isn't reliable. And despite the utility of this spell, 90% of templars opt to Sprint instead of gap closing. It needs to grant off balance regardless of stun, keep toppling charge stun but give explosive charge an buff that continues after you gap closer (a persistent dot, a defensive buff in the area after you land like maim, etc). Those would give templars looking for offensively mobilty can have synergy with their stuns. Also remove that evil minimum range.

- eclipse (fix synergy with hard cc or add root cc)
I like how unique this ability is, but it's execution sucks. It grants cc immunity, but has no follow up mechanic. Total dark should be changed to allow all Templars to use it (Stam, hybrid, mag) and grant minor defense buff/debuff regardless of cc immunity. Unstable core is fine, but needs a root to justify throwing it out more than an actual CC (the DMG is fine as is).

- ritual of Retribution (doesn't do enough to debuff)
Always found it weird they gave the healing tree an AOE DOT. Remove the damage, make 5 debuffs base morph, and grant allies minor evaison in the circle and stamina for each attack dodged. Then make extended ritual add a small snare immunity (2 or 3 seconds) so that you let Templars pick between group buff or speed.

- blazing spear (has no extra resorces and mechanically is clunky compared to wall of elements)
Also weird, gives resorces but harder to land than WOE which is easier to animation cancel. It should grant an AOE DMG at Templar to punish players that get close. If restoring aura gets the shards resource return then both of these morphs could get a defensive buff or be separated to give both mag/Stam morphs.

- vamps bane (no difference between it and reflective light aside from more time and 1 projectile).
This ability is ok, but it's buff time is too short and it's damage is too low to be used as a spamable direct Attack. Vamps bane should increase your direct initial DMG, base morphs grant full 12s minimum of crit chance, and reflective light add an AOE proc dot around you along with the 3 projectiles.


Then fix all the other bugs and other weird mechanics other templars have noted (including buffs to cresant/empowering sweeps).

Minno wrote: »

- blazing spear (has no extra resorces and mechanically is clunky compared to wall of elements)
Also weird, gives resorces but harder to land than WOE which is easier to animation cancel. It should grant an AOE DMG at Templar to punish players that get close. If restoring aura gets the shards resource return then both of these morphs could get a defensive buff or be separated to give both mag/Stam morphs.

I like blazing spear as it is. Ground Target effects might be a bit weird mechanically, but I'd rather they improve the mechanics to cast them instead of changing abilities because of this. Due to burning light it is also almost on par to blockade in PvE situations. Having this and Blockade at the same time is kind of the core of Magplar PvE DPS

WeyounTM wrote: »

Everyone seems to agree that Argonians have the best racial passives by a countrymile for a healer....but why do they need to have it? So that everyone in BGs and cyrodiil can whine about "breathplars" and bring their salt to the forums? And hence Magplars will get the nerfhammer for years to come?

Argonians had deep bottom of the crap pile of passives for years. When they got some healing and resource buffs, no one cared except those who had stuck with lizards for a long time. No one was screaming about Argonians being OP. Some even said the Altmer might be a bit better since they have all-around better magicka stats which would be great for both damage and heals. Better heals and sustain is a niche, just like huge shields and high damage is a niche.

Somewhat related, but not focused on Argonian Templars using Breath of Life, is the functioning of the nerf/buff cycle.

My perspective is that:

1. Skill lines, racial passives, and set effects/bonuses are so numerous, varied, and modular there will always be an outlier for some niches that are particularly good or particularly bad.

2. Each time a skill line is introduced or changed, or a set is introduced or changed, the configuration shifts. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Something that was great is now just OK. Something that was good is now awesome. Something that was bad is now terrible. Breton passives were "pretty good", then "sort of OK", then "in need of a buff", then "a bit better", etc., as the way combat works, sets available, and so on shifted (defense versus offense focus, generous sustain vs scarce sustain, etc.). Same for other races, such as when Redguards got their built-in stamina sustain nerfed.

3. This Teetering Jenga Tower of Futile Folly is so wibbly wobbly that the devs apparently can't always make the best theoretical adjustments because of the huge amount of overall rebalancing and reanimations required, so they go for the safest pieces that get them as close as possible to their goals. Some pieces are apparently wedged into the puzzle in a way that makes them particularly hard to adjust so they rarely if ever get touched.

4. The things that are added/change the most and therefore tend to often cause new shifts are gear sets, with new adjusted skill lines second and others last. Racial changes and major base game-play overhauls are less frequent and are usually in response to cumulative changes over longer periods of time.

5. Buffs seems to be more focused on average players and low-use skills/sets/races, whereas nerfs seemed to be based on what top performers in PvE and PvP can accomplish. Yet those buffs can sometimes be exploited by top performers and the nerfs sometimes hurt average players, so the safest bets are bland, milquetoast adjustements that err on the nerf side of the force.

6. Players appear to like to blame classes the most when other player perform better than them in PvE or PvP, sets second, and everything else last. But if there is some build that they don't like that is tied to racial passives, they will focus on the race first. Whatever they see as the main cause becomes not just a situational circumstance lifting some niches and lowering others, but as something inherently broken for that class, set, race, etc. So even if whatever it is gets nerfed, the perception remains it is OP or always at risk of easily becoming OP (see Dragonknights after VampDKs at launch, see Templars after they got Radiant Destruction on top of healing Sweeps, see Magicka Nightblades when they had insane sustain, see Magicka Sorcerers at every phase of the game's development since launch, etc.). Those perceptions linger for years. And they apparently can drive new, unnecessary rounds of nerfs (Breath of Life, anyone?).

7. So Nerfs happen to a class, race, or set -- then other changes shift alignment again, so that some niches/metas are lifted up, others drop down. But buffs to the once nerfed "OP" class, race, or set are much slower to come once they fall from the graces of the overall alignment (see Templars being a magicka battery in late beta then having waaaay too expensive skills for a long time after launch even though their sustain had been nerfed). The pattern: Fast to hit corrective nerfs, slow to come recovery buffs. Plus some seemingly inexplicable nerfs and buffs tossed in thanks to the Jenga Tower.

8. Watch #6 and #7 cycle over and over due to #1 through #5. See the stereotypes form and quick judgments fly. Feel the salt flow.

This is how I see tend to see "balance" in the game from patch notes and player arguments discussions.

If some clearly identifiable element (class, race, set) is broadly overperforming across more than one configuration/alignment shift, I say nerf it.

If it is "this race, type of set, and class in this specific content under a specific alignment" is perceived as over-performing, then be cautious in what you ask to be nerfed and how hard, because it may take a very long time to ever buff it back up again.

tinythinker wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

- eclipse (fix synergy with hard cc or add root cc)
I like how unique this ability is, but it's execution sucks. It grants cc immunity, but has no follow up mechanic. Total dark should be changed to allow all Templars to use it (Stam, hybrid, mag) and grant minor defense buff/debuff regardless of cc immunity. Unstable core is fine, but needs a root to justify throwing it out more than an actual CC (the DMG is fine as is).

- blazing spear (has no extra resorces and mechanically is clunky compared to wall of elements)
Also weird, gives resorces but harder to land than WOE which is easier to animation cancel. It should grant an AOE DMG at Templar to punish players that get close. If restoring aura gets the shards resource return then both of these morphs could get a defensive buff or be separated to give both mag/Stam morphs.

Minno wrote: »

My idea would still be giving you the chance to throw a spear at a location. But the change is that you'll gain the chance to send out blazing light to burn enemies around you as you cast the spear. This way enemies are punished for coming closer to you, and double punished if the Templar decides to throw the shards in his location to protect his house.

Then you'll have 2 chances to proc burning light; dot DMG that persists in the area, and an AOE DMG similar to how streak initial hit works for sorcs.

I am a broken record for adding a stun to anyone who tries to use a gap closer while affected by Unstable Core, but a root would also work.

The Blazing Spear idea is nice as it works for both PvP and PvE.

I think root works the best for unstable core (maybe because I'm biased UC lover lol):
- gives you a secondary way to burn stamina further justifying the cc immunity.
- root will work with jabs and justify not being able to add in stuns at a reliable pace
- adds to both defense and offense in one ability while also being unique

Solves the pain point of weird cc immunity not giving anything defensive, UC DMG burst gives offensive windows, and solves issues where Templars have a tough time with lining up burst because everything is spread out over multiple GCDs.

LeifErickson wrote: »

Spear Wall: increases the amount of damage you can block from melee attacks by 15% while you have an Aedric Spear ability slotted.

This passive is part of the Aedric Spear skill line. All of the skills in this skill line are offensive skills (except sun shield which is only good on super niche builds), yet this passive is a defensive passive. Very few magplars use sword and board on the same bar as puncturing sweeps since you can't block while channeling. Most magplars also slot most of their offensive skills on the same bar and their defensive skills (turtle bar) on another bar that might have sword and board. None of the Aeridc Spear skills either make sense or are good enough to run on a defensive bar while at the same time are slotted on offensive bars where the Spear Wall passive will give them no benefit.

What I would like to see changed is to move this passive to a different skill line where it can actually be utilized on a block bar instead of an offensive/channel bar. The Restoring Light skill line would be the best host for this as most templars run skills from this skill line on a defensive/block bar. Master Ritualist could then be swapped with Spear Wall as that passive has no synergy with any of the skills in that skill line.

Sorry if this was already mentioned.

I don't think it would be much to ask to simply have this passive apply without slotting a single thing.