Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

That's just stupid, sorry.

Why streak was "OP" ? Because you could spam it ?

Guess what sorc are doing right now.

WE SPAM STREAK with dark exchange, nothing has changed on the spammable side, sorc streak away like before, the difference is that now, we are BIND with dark exchange, and it's REDUCE our space bar even more.

I mean do I have to really explain things? Really?

That on 45k magicka and 2.8k Streak cost, you could do 16 Streaks before without Dark Deal or pots? Can you do 16 streaks now without exiting cooldown? 6th Streak has a 32k cost btw. Can you? Can you spam it? Cause if you can, then show me a vid but if you can't then stop talking non-sense

Doing 3 streaks, couple of dark deals, waiting for the cool down to go out and repeat... that's not spamming the skill, is it? That creates a window for someone to catch you up and you have to utilise both resources, instead of just magicka. Increasing your risk of dying if you get caught.

I don't know about you, but I don't have to re-position in combat every 2". I can re-position and wait for the cooldown to go down. Otherwise you're not "re-positioning", you're escaping.

Yeah, if streak were any better, it’s be just like your nightblade main’s cloak right?

The fix I want is to lose the stacking cost if I hit someone with it. I don’t see a problem with repositioning every few seconds if stamina characters can jump and outdistance me in one button press with no cost increase issues.

Given what any speed pot stamina character can do, We should be able to streak more than three or four times before we have to dark deal. Period.

A nightblade can just keep jumping to you forever basically. But that’s balanced somehow! (It’s not)

The difference with Cloak is that, unlike Streak, you don't get any serious benefits from it if you get immediately pulled out. You might force a mid-air projectile to miss, but that's about it. You're still there, still slowed to ***, still taking damage from all DoTs, you haven't done any damage and you haven't healed. The magicka is quite literally wasted.

Whereas with Streak, you move. You do damage if you hit anything. You stun non blocking/CC-immune targets. You can do 3 streaks into LOS cover. You can streak into a friendly zerg for protection. You always get the stated benefit from casting the skill and no-one rally can do anything to cancel that. You don't always get 4 seconds invis from Cloak

Although generally I think invis needs more counterplay in this game and Cloak needs more base benefit to balance things out.

PS. I'm a Sorc main. My NB is Lieutenant. My Sorc is Legate. And that's by playing basically only BGs an duels since they came out.

Your so-called “lieutenant’s” gap closer is still better than streak in every way. I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t be able to hit it just a couple more times. The stacking nerf isn’t a ‘penalty’, it’s a complete *** castration of the skill.

It shouldn’t even have a cost penalty if I’m using it as a weapon.

A gap closer requires a target. You think Teleport Strike is better than Streak in every way? Ok

I can't help you buddy.

The issue with streak is that once you've been into melee range any competent user of gap closer nullifies your streak. They are immediatly on you again. You might force a missed melee skill, but that's about it. You will still be in melee range, still slowed to *** since streak doesn't purge snares, still taking damage (and more snares/cc) from the GC and ranged attacks (except you use BoL but then you do zero damage), still taking damage from all DoTs, you really haven't accomplished anything and haven't healed. The magicka is quite literally wasted. On top of that everyone can spam GC far more often than streak.

Sure, you do a bit of damage and maybe you stun. But you usually try to escape when you need to, not when you can afford to wait out their immunity. And don't get me started about streak killing your momentum on both ends and how gracefully it works on uneven terrain. Basically streak only works if you stay on range from the beginning. Or against noobs, but anything is effective against someone with low skill.

While I see where your opinion comes from regarding duels and BGs, you should try out streak more often in open world cyro. It's not as universally useful as you make it seem.

The more I look at these changes the more I don't know how to feel...

Frags are just such a pathetic skill as is. Idk what it is, or why they hit like wet noodles but they do. Maybe the playerbase has collectively gotten better, and just have high resistance through CP, or sets like Wizards riposte (hate this set), but a 10% loss shouldn't account for how my frags went from hitting 10k+ regularly (even 15k plus on low CP players) to barely skating along with 7k crits. My friend whipped me for a 10.5k flame lash, and he can spam that!!! And that 7k is a decent frag, more times then not I'm critting for 5k against these tankier stamina/magicka builds (I'm looking at you Wardens/Templars/Dragon knights). I have 50k magicka, 3k+ spell damage, like 15k penetration from sets (spinners) and CP, 8% direct damage from inferno passive, like it's not my setup... Frags are TRASH and need to be overlooked.

But I digress, rune prison is a good change. It sickens me to think my best burst setup is now tied to their CC immunity, and landing 4 skills simultaneously, but I guess I like a challenge... As for the meteor losing its empower, as much as that sucks, I REALLY don't want to be tied to using an ultimate to get a kill. It disgusts me. Especially one that costs 170... Like cool I'll pop a 70 cost single target Ultimate in a 1v1 all day, but ya see that's not the class I play...

So really I just want my 33% proc chance, easy to counter projectile, Mag Sorc staple ability back to being an actual threat... Drop it down to 20-25% proc chance and give it assassin's will tooltip, no Sorc would complain

Jsmalls wrote: »

The more I look at these changes the more I don't know how to feel...

Frags are just such a pathetic skill as is. Idk what it is, or why they hit like wet noodles but they do. Maybe the playerbase has collectively gotten better, and just have high resistance through CP, or sets like Wizards riposte (hate this set), but a 10% loss shouldn't account for how my frags went from hitting 10k+ regularly (even 15k plus on low CP players) to barely skating along with 7k crits. My friend whipped me for a 10.5k flame lash, and he can spam that!!! And that 7k is a decent frag, more times then not I'm critting for 5k against these tankier stamina/magicka builds (I'm looking at you Wardens/Templars/Dragon knights). I have 50k magicka, 3k+ spell damage, like 15k penetration from sets (spinners) and CP, 8% direct damage from inferno passive, like it's not my setup... Frags are TRASH and need to be overlooked.

But I digress, rune prison is a good change. It sickens me to think my best burst setup is now tied to their CC immunity, and landing 4 skills simultaneously, but I guess I like a challenge... As for the meteor losing its empower, as much as that sucks, I REALLY don't want to be tied to using an ultimate to get a kill. It disgusts me. Especially one that costs 170... Like cool I'll pop a 70 cost single target Ultimate in a 1v1 all day, but ya see that's not the class I play...

So really I just want my 33% proc chance, easy to counter projectile, Mag Sorc staple ability back to being an actual threat... Drop it down to 20-25% proc chance and give it assassin's will tooltip, no Sorc would complain

Completely agree with everything.
Damage should not be so low an a cast-time (or random-procced) ability with stats so high. I'm convinced they've screwed with the scaling of sorc abilities

Irylia wrote: »

If you believe magsorc is better than magblade in duels, you should just leave this thread now.

If you believe streak is fine how it is (cost increase/incapable of use on slopes/delay front/end) and that getting trained down by classes who expend far less resources, once again, leave this thread now.

If you believe that clench/prison are superior to frag stun do not pass go do not collect 200, just leave this thread.

If you don't understand the crippling state of wards in anything except maybe a duel, get off my lawn and leave this thread.

There are sorcs here who understand the pains of this class and aren't zerg surfing while spamming fury in a no regen build.

You can respond to my comment trying to justify yourself and say I'm wrong, but I'm not.

Here's a funny thing to consider. We are given crit and pen with our light armor passives meanwhile a stam class in heavy still has the same pen (weapons/cp considering) and can reach the same crit chance with little to no effort.

45% crit chance on magsorc with iL and light armor bonus.
42% crit on stamden with lotus fury/bs

Builds: sorc shackle domi lich master nirn 3x spell glyphs 3.3k spell 40k mag

Stamden: bs darkstride (sb jewelry) fury asylum 2h 37k Stam

5k pen from light armor 3k pen cp magsorc
5k pen sub assault and 2-3k pen cp stamden

I don't even have to try and I get the things that light armor classes are so graciously given.
In addition I have
- 26k hp (sorc 20-21k)
- 30k resistances. (Sorc 10k)
- 4.5k weapon damage.
- 1.4k base regen/constitution/netch/passive sustain/2h heavy (dps/empower/faster to use/can move while swinging), pot/2h kill/continuous 2.2k regen.
- major heroism + ult gen w/ asylum
- shimmering is a better ward
- 3k impen
- major expedition and snare immunity
-minor protection on my res buff

That's just stamden. Stamblade is another monster.

Depends if its a pet sorc. Pet sorc is still insane in duels. Comparing ur class to the BiS duel class (besides pet sorc) is interesting .
On the other hand its alot easier to kill "not the greatest player" on a sorc as on a mag nb since the combo is easier and more often up. And lets be honest 1vX is about killing "not the greatest players".

I'm not claiming sorc is OP or anything - but u should try some classes like stam dk or stamplar and so on in 1vX. Sorc is for sure not the underdog of solo PvP. Imo the new changes will be quite valueable for mSorcs(ofc we will need to w8 and see the pts to be sure - but the amount of crying in this thread BEFORE we can even test is disguisting).

- staff changes (yes most classes dont profit as much as u sorcs from this) Didnt Kena just win a duel tournament on dw mag
sorc (u can play that build now with staffs for more dmg and more spell variety).

- the change of the max stat pool affecting light attacks - yes this is not also not only a sorc buff , so sorc will again profit the
most - sorcs stack heavily into magicka - sorc duel builds on EU are around/over 50k magicka - stam builds are normally
normally below 40k - ontop of that mDks , magplar(also stamplar since jabs is a channel resulting in less lights), snb mag
warden and so on dont profit of this change nearly as much as mag sorc.

- the rune cage stun can even be used on life servers atm to instakill e.g. squishier builds e.g. (2h/bow) stam nbs - with the
extra dmg it will be ofc even more disguisting - the spell feels clunky so - Id also prefer to have frags stun again.

Imo sorc needs more a rework because its imo just boring to play at the moment. Especially the reach spam with master staff...

And yes general changes profiting a class the most can be seen as a buff to the class, since they effect the strength of a class in a positive way.

Rollerblade also didnt get strong bc it got buffed direct - It mainly profitted from offbalance changes + alot of abilites not going throught roll - I predict the same for mSorc - small things make a huge difference often.

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

I completely agree that it is "subtractive diversity". But sometimes you can't keep building up if the foundation isn't large enough, which is simply wasn't.
My original post, which I am going to assume you didn't read, stated that while the frag nerf did knock down the overall performance of the class, it allows the possibility for some positive class changes because frags isn't so overloaded anymore. Lining up a +20k burst with a built in stun without ultimate on a potential 6 second cooldown was simply too much to allow for any positive buffs to the class anywhere else.

But apparently, because nobody can see anything except what they want to see:

TL;DR:
Sorc is in a place where they can receive positive buffs to elevate them to a competitive state with greater build diversity than it had before the frag nerf.

And I refer solely to the CC removal. I agree that either the damage or the cc removal was an option, and while the cc removal makes the class a lot more clunky to play successfully, it opens up greater diversity than a damage nerf would have.

Minalan wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Builds: sorc shackle domi lich master nirn 3x spell glyphs 3.3k spell 40k mag

Now imagine how strong sorc would be on a petbuild or on something with 50-60k max magicka (Shadowrend, Necropotence) if sorc would be good in duels with your build (and shackle, domi, lich is not a duel build, period). It's funny, because I suffer (just as every other open world build) from the same issue, I'm playing a med armor rollerblade in duels and I can't compete with duel cheese builds as well, I accpeted that a year ago when ZOS started to release sets which only work in duels. (To be fair, rollerblade is currently a bit better than your sorc build but on the other hand stamnb can't build such extreme cheese builds anymore as sorc can).

Minalan wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

If you believe magsorc is better than magblade in duels, you should just leave this thread now.

If you believe streak is fine how it is (cost increase/incapable of use on slopes/delay front/end) and that getting trained down by classes who expend far less resources, once again, leave this thread now.

If you believe that clench/prison are superior to frag stun do not pass go do not collect 200, just leave this thread.

If you don't understand the crippling state of wards in anything except maybe a duel, get off my lawn and leave this thread.

There are sorcs here who understand the pains of this class and aren't zerg surfing while spamming fury in a no regen build.

You can respond to my comment trying to justify yourself and say I'm wrong, but I'm not.

Here's a funny thing to consider. We are given crit and pen with our light armor passives meanwhile a stam class in heavy still has the same pen (weapons/cp considering) and can reach the same crit chance with little to no effort.

45% crit chance on magsorc with iL and light armor bonus.
42% crit on stamden with lotus fury/bs

5k pen from light armor 3k pen cp magsorc
5k pen sub assault and 2-3k pen cp stamden

I don't even have to try and I get the things that light armor classes are so graciously given.
In addition I have
- 26k hp
- 30k resistances.
- 4.5k weapon damage.
- 1.4k base regen/constitution/netch/passive sustain/2h heavy (dps/empower/faster to use/can move while swinging), pot/2h kill/continuous 2.2k regen.
- major heroism + ult gen w/ asylum
- shimmering is a better ward
- 3k impen
- major expedition and snare immunity
-minor protection on my res buff

That's just stamden. Stamblade is another monster.

I am sorry that only have one insightful to give man.

Most of our complaints is that Sorc is ‘ok’ but it is NOT competitive in fights against competent players of many other classes.

It’s not just dueling. It means when you meet someone good in Cyrodiil by yourself, it means that you can’t escape. You can fight back, but in the end you are going to LOSE and it’s not because you need to ‘git gud’. It’s a balance issue that has not been addressed.

There are a lot of “false flag” Sorcs in here saying we don’t need any changes or buffs, that’s because they ENJOY killing you on their nightblades, stamdens, and Wardens without a lot of thought or work on their part.

@Irylia however is one of the best Sorc duelists around. When he says there’s a problem, it’s because there IS a problem. Not because he’s bad at Sorc, because he’d tear up almost anyone here.

But sorc is competitive. It's just not competitive against a duel build while running around with an open world build. And for duels... well... just let me say that petsorc currently is the strongest duel build which you can play.

About what are you complaining if you exclude duels? Do you want to tell me that sorc is bad in open world? You can just avoid fighting every duel build which you encounter in open world simply by streaking away, most of them don't even have a gapcloser.

Edit: I've heard that a dual wield magsorc won a tournament on your server. You clearly can't win against good players on magsorc

Let’s be honest here: Pet Sorcs are great in duels because the game targeting is broken. If you could lock onto the Sorc with tab and hit them consistently, they would go down faster than a sorority girl in Cabo on spring break. The broken targeting gameplay does NOT MAKE THEM A GOOD OR BALANCED CLASS. Pet Sorcs get destroyed anywhere that isn’t a neat empty 10x10 dueling square and you know it.

Was that a Legends tourney? I’m guessing not. They actually had to hold a separate sorcerer tourney because Sorcs haven’t placed in the top five in a year. I wouldn’t be surprised if a SORC won a SORC tourney.

And If you think we’re so competitive, try playing one. I get it, stam DK sucks. Because Sorc is slightly better than the worst PVP class in the game doesn’t make us balanced compared to stamina Wardens and night blades.

It’s not just dueling, it’s just about every 1v1 you get into. Unless you are way ahead of the other guy in the skill gap they are going to win. You can’t escape, streak is far too expensive, your mobility is terrible, and your ONE damage skill is tied to a *** proc and does a whopping 7K.

Seriously, if you’re not a sorc main, then please GTFO. We’ve heard enough nightblade *** in nearly every nerf Sorc thread this year.

Yes, I've mained a magicka sorc during homestead because of how ridiculous the class was during that time You can make sorc strong in duels without pets too, just use Shadowrend and get a high magicka pool. Did you ever fight a magicka sorc with 55k magicka? It's pretty strong.

You're a funny little dude. Compaing magicka sorc to stamina Dk. Let me remind you that magicka gets a lot of direct and indirect buffs while stamdk gets *** hahaha.
If you lose every 1v1 you get into then you are a bad player and you will continue to lose even with buffs. As soon as any class has some form of magicka damage (even stamblades and stamdks have that with Shade/Volatile Armor) you can just jump in circles while pressing two buttons over and over again without ever having to worry about magicka sustain. You can force a draw against pretty much everything but full duel builds (which you can Streak away from), god forbid that you can't kill anything with Frags, Curse and Fury with that much defense. You don't want sorc to be competitive. You want sorc to be a no risk and high reward class like it was once.
I know exactly one single sorc who plays without Harness while still having huge success (on a build that doesn't stack 50k+ magicka) and who wants shieldstacking to be removed from the game. Without Harness I agree that sorc needs some offensive buffs, but we all know that the sorc community would go on rampage if Harness gets touched.

King_Thelon wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

King_Thelon wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I don't pretend to be an authority on the class

Yet your drivel in this thread is outshined only by the youngling who thinks that MagSorc is better than MagBlade in duels.

I wouldn’t expect you to say otherwise. Judging by your gameplay on YouTube you probably think every single class in this game is better than mag sorc.

When you main a MagBlade and think Sorcs are better in duels, we all know whose gameplay is suspect.

Petsorc (or even a regular high max magicka sorc) can compete with magblade very well, but I'm sure you know that. Every sorc in this thread knows it, it just wouldn't fit their agenda. Let alone ignore the fact that magblade deals magicka damage and sorc doesn't need to worry about sustain at all in this matchup.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

About what are you complaining if you exclude duels? Do you want to tell me that sorc is bad in open world? You can just avoid fighting every duel build which you encounter in open world simply by streaking away, most of them don't even have a gapcloser.

Edit: I've heard that a dual wield magsorc won a tournament on your server. You clearly can't win against good players on magsorc

So your way of judging a class in open world PVP is the ability to run away from good players? Interesting ...

Yes? A mobility sustain build should lose to a no mobility niche duel build unless you play better than your opponent. This is the case on every open world build, why should magsorc be an exception?

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

I completely agree that it is "subtractive diversity". But sometimes you can't keep building up if the foundation isn't large enough, which is simply wasn't.
My original post, which I am going to assume you didn't read, stated that while the frag nerf did knock down the overall performance of the class, it allows the possibility for some positive class changes because frags isn't so overloaded anymore. Lining up a +20k burst with a built in stun without ultimate on a potential 6 second cooldown was simply too much to allow for any positive buffs to the class anywhere else.

But apparently, because nobody can see anything except what they want to see:

TL;DR:
Sorc is in a place where they can receive positive buffs to elevate them to a competitive state with greater build diversity than it had before the frag nerf.

And I refer solely to the CC removal. I agree that either the damage or the cc removal was an option, and while the cc removal makes the class a lot more clunky to play successfully, it opens up greater diversity than a damage nerf would have.

I have read your post and... I did not care. Because the nerf does not just affect PvP, where for all what I care you can go and boil in it all life long - but it ruined some PvE situations that made skilled sorc players shine.
As ALWAYS, Wrobel tossed the baby with the PvP washwater.

Plus, the sentence: "while the frag nerf did knock down the overall performance of the class, it allows the possibility for some positive class changes because frags isn't so overloaded anymore" is just inadmissible.

Sure, you can destroy a class enough that anything you do after the nuclear strike, will be perceived as "positive". Hell yeah, this is brilliant! Oh, wait, it's just a bland excuse.

Ok. And how does cc removal affect sorcs in PvE? I’m against the damage nerf but not the cc nerf. I fail to see your issue.

If frags kept its cc, you couldn’t increase curse or fury damage without making the combo ridiculous.

I’m not talking about any class nerf besides the frag cc removal.