Sorcerer Summerset Changes Discussion

Vahrokh · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Sorc wipes the floor with magblade 1v1. It’s one of those Rock Paper Scissors matchup, while sorc is average against any other class.

Saying that magblade is “just a better sorc” is simply ignorant. They’re as different as they come, lol. Not to mention that magblade has an inclination to play a bit more close range (incap, concealed if 2h which is BiS this patch) while sorc is a pure ranged class.

Game is a tiiiiny bit larger than duels. There's full blown PvP, there is PvE, there are trials. Magblade mops the floor with sorcs in most of them.

Minalan · April 2018

I love how everyone says ‘blaaah frags was overloaded’ because of a *** stun.

Meanwhile none of our skills grant defile, breach, fracture (for the stam Sorcs), maim, force, or six attacks with a 20% damage bonus, etc. incap strike is overloaded, not frags.

One of our ultimates grants berserk to someone ELSE FFS. What the hell is that?! Why did they bother fixing the other storm Atro morph and not add some other decent self buff to it?

We had a stun, on our ONE instant damage skill, that’s tied to a *** proc that doesn’t go off 66% of the time. We lost it, and our class was never compensated elsewhere for it. Minor Fracture or minor force would have been a good substitute, but that never happened.

Now everyone is cheering for a few minor passive buffs. They can keep the 200 Magicka on my next flame reach when I block something. They can shove the 3K damage on cage where the sun doesn’t shine. They can choke on the meteor nerf until they turn blue for all I care.

Fix streak. Or Fix frags. Or don’t bother. Stop patting the devs on the back for this mess.

Every other class is happy that we’re free AP, and can’t compete seriously in duels. They’re happy that we can’t stun, fracture, defile, force, maim, or breach on our class skills. They’re happy that we can’t escape with our one escape tool because it’s so much worse than speed pots with a gap closer.

I’m not. I’m sick of the fake-sorc nightblade mains here trying to pee on me and tell me it’s raining. Get bent!

Subversus · April 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Sorc wipes the floor with magblade 1v1. It’s one of those Rock Paper Scissors matchup, while sorc is average against any other class.

Saying that magblade is “just a better sorc” is simply ignorant. They’re as different as they come, lol. Not to mention that magblade has an inclination to play a bit more close range (incap, concealed if 2h which is BiS this patch) while sorc is a pure ranged class.

Game is a tiiiiny bit larger than duels. There's full blown PvP, there is PvE, there are trials. Magblade mops the floor with sorcs in most of them.

My point was that can’t compare magblade to magsorc in pvp except for duels, where sorc is simply better (against each other that is). They’re far too different. Doing so is ignorant. They both excel at different things, and sorc is not as bad as y’all make it out to be. Boring and not very versatile, maybe, forced into a few numbers of setups in order to be viable, but not bad. At least not if you’re playing meta setups.

Not to mention that only thing magblade has that’s “better” than sorc for regular pvp is cloak. So saying that magblades are “better sorcs” simply because of cloak? Sure thing bud!

Subversus · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

I love how everyone says ‘blaaah frags was overloaded’ because of a *** stun.

Meanwhile none of our skills grant defile, breach, fracture (for the stam Sorcs), maim, force, or six attacks with a 20% damage bonus, etc. incap strike is overloaded, not frags.

One of our ultimates grants berserk to someone ELSE FFS. What the hell is that?! Why did they bother fixing the other storm Atro morph and not add some other decent self buff to it?

We had a stun, on our ONE instant damage skill, that’s tied to a *** proc that doesn’t go off 66% of the time. We lost it, and our class was never compensated elsewhere for it. Minor Fracture or minor force would have been a good substitute, but that never happened.

Now everyone is cheering for a few minor passive buffs. They can keep the 200 Magicka on my next flame reach when I block something. They can shove the 3K damage on cage where the sun doesn’t shine. They can choke on the meteor nerf until they turn blue for all I care.

Fix streak. Or Fix frags. Or don’t bother. Stop patting the devs on the back for this mess.

Every other class is happy that we’re free AP, and can’t compete seriously in duels. They’re happy that we can’t stun, fracture, defile, force, maim, or breach on our class skills. They’re happy that we can’t escape with our one escape tool because it’s so much worse than speed pots with a gap closer.

I’m not. I’m sick of the fake-sorc nightblade mains here trying to pee on me and tell me it’s raining. Get bent!

TL DR: world is ending, sorc is the worst class in game - needs YUUGE buffs. Also, anyone’s opinion that’s not a sorc main is irrelevant even though they played sorc long enough and are probably better than many “sorc mains”.

I swear sometimes the sorc community is worse than the magdk one.

Beardimus · April 2018

@Minalan drops the mic!!

Nice

Maulkin · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Sorc wipes the floor with magblade 1v1. It’s one of those Rock Paper Scissors matchup, while sorc is average against any other class.

Saying that magblade is “just a better sorc” is simply ignorant. They’re as different as they come, lol. Not to mention that magblade has an inclination to play a bit more close range (incap, concealed if 2h which is BiS this patch) while sorc is a pure ranged class.

Errrm, Pet Sorc duel build can wipe the floor with a mageblade in 1v1s. A non-pet Sorc is quite inferior.

Ragnarock41 · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Sorc wipes the floor with magblade 1v1. It’s one of those Rock Paper Scissors matchup, while sorc is average against any other class.

Saying that magblade is “just a better sorc” is simply ignorant. They’re as different as they come, lol. Not to mention that magblade has an inclination to play a bit more close range (incap, concealed if 2h which is BiS this patch) while sorc is a pure ranged class.

I find that sorcs, and especially petsorcs are too good at shutting down stamDK 1v1. Especially the classic SnB stamDk.

The shielstack, atro, the mines, add all to the perfect sustain of magsorc and my sDk just can't keep up.

Wİthout doing proper pressure a magsorc will never go out of resources, and to do that level of pressure I tried going dual wield/2h with venom claws, blood craze,double dot poisons and 5k+ weapon damage, and I was able to actually kill sorcs that were shieldstacking like crazy. and blade cloak actually mitigates the magsorc combo better than SnB does suprisingly.

Either way, outside of 1v1s shieldstacking is really not an issue, and yes, saying that magblade is ''just a better sorc'' is false.

I find that magblades have a lot more counterplay than magsorcs and when I fight againts magblades I actually enjoy the fight.

Maulkin · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I love how everyone says ‘blaaah frags was overloaded’ because of a *** stun.

Meanwhile none of our skills grant defile, breach, fracture (for the stam Sorcs), maim, force, or six attacks with a 20% damage bonus, etc. incap strike is overloaded, not frags.

One of our ultimates grants berserk to someone ELSE FFS. What the hell is that?! Why did they bother fixing the other storm Atro morph and not add some other decent self buff to it?

We had a stun, on our ONE instant damage skill, that’s tied to a *** proc that doesn’t go off 66% of the time. We lost it, and our class was never compensated elsewhere for it. Minor Fracture or minor force would have been a good substitute, but that never happened.

Now everyone is cheering for a few minor passive buffs. They can keep the 200 Magicka on my next flame reach when I block something. They can shove the 3K damage on cage where the sun doesn’t shine. They can choke on the meteor nerf until they turn blue for all I care.

Fix streak. Or Fix frags. Or don’t bother. Stop patting the devs on the back for this mess.

Every other class is happy that we’re free AP, and can’t compete seriously in duels. They’re happy that we can’t stun, fracture, defile, force, maim, or breach on our class skills. They’re happy that we can’t escape with our one escape tool because it’s so much worse than speed pots with a gap closer.

I’m not. I’m sick of the fake-sorc nightblade mains here trying to pee on me and tell me it’s raining. Get bent!

TL DR: world is ending, sorc is the worst class in game - needs YUUGE buffs. Also, anyone’s opinion that’s not a sorc main is irrelevant even though they played sorc long enough and are probably better than many “sorc mains”.

I swear sometimes the sorc community is worse than the magdk one.

Besides his rant, he does have a point. The world is not ending and Sorc doesn't need a huge buff at all, but the loss of stun from frags was quite harmful in terms of build diversity and finding enough bar space for skills. That's not a made up situation, that's the reality.

I personally always maintained that the 20% buff can go (or be part of a morph that doesn't stun) so long as one morph of the skill has a proc with a stun. You need the skill to have that utility to save you from having to slot another single target stun which you don't really have space for. Even if the price for that utility is lower damage. Because currently it's neither a spammable, nor stun. It's not offering a buff or a debuff. And as a pure burst damage skill it ranks below comparable skills like Grim Focus and Shalks.

I just accepted the fact that ZOS never really revert nerfs and moved on. But the point does still stand and it's a valid one.

Subversus · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Sorc wipes the floor with magblade 1v1. It’s one of those Rock Paper Scissors matchup, while sorc is average against any other class.

Saying that magblade is “just a better sorc” is simply ignorant. They’re as different as they come, lol. Not to mention that magblade has an inclination to play a bit more close range (incap, concealed if 2h which is BiS this patch) while sorc is a pure ranged class.

Errrm, Pet Sorc duel build can wipe the floor with a mageblade in 1v1s. A non-pet Sorc is quite inferior.

Hell yeah, pet sorc can wipe the floor with everything 1v1

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Sorc wipes the floor with magblade 1v1. It’s one of those Rock Paper Scissors matchup, while sorc is average against any other class.

Saying that magblade is “just a better sorc” is simply ignorant. They’re as different as they come, lol. Not to mention that magblade has an inclination to play a bit more close range (incap, concealed if 2h which is BiS this patch) while sorc is a pure ranged class.

I find that sorcs, and especially petsorcs are too good at shutting down stamDK 1v1. Especially the classic SnB stamDk.

The shielstack, atro, the mines, add all to the perfect sustain of magsorc and my sDk just can't keep up.

Wİthout doing proper pressure a magsorc will never go out of resources, and to do that level of pressure I tried going dual wield/2h with venom claws, blood craze,double dot poisons and 5k+ weapon damage, and I was able to actually kill sorcs that were shieldstacking like crazy. and blade cloak actually mitigates the magsorc combo better than SnB does suprisingly.

Either way, outside of 1v1s shieldstacking is really not an issue, and yes, saying that magblade is ''just a better sorc'' is false.

I find that magblades have a lot more counterplay than magsorcs and when I fight againts magblades I actually enjoy the fight.

Yeah, sadly, I find that stamdks are the easiest class to duel on my sorc, especially if I have drain on. I can’t seem to recall the last time I’ve actually lost to one, be it in cyro or outside in a duel.

ToRelax · April 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

The most differentiating skills in the Sorc toolkit used to be Bolt Escape, Surge and Negate, all of which were nerfed heavily within the first year of the game.

Subversus · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I love how everyone says ‘blaaah frags was overloaded’ because of a *** stun.

Meanwhile none of our skills grant defile, breach, fracture (for the stam Sorcs), maim, force, or six attacks with a 20% damage bonus, etc. incap strike is overloaded, not frags.

One of our ultimates grants berserk to someone ELSE FFS. What the hell is that?! Why did they bother fixing the other storm Atro morph and not add some other decent self buff to it?

We had a stun, on our ONE instant damage skill, that’s tied to a *** proc that doesn’t go off 66% of the time. We lost it, and our class was never compensated elsewhere for it. Minor Fracture or minor force would have been a good substitute, but that never happened.

Now everyone is cheering for a few minor passive buffs. They can keep the 200 Magicka on my next flame reach when I block something. They can shove the 3K damage on cage where the sun doesn’t shine. They can choke on the meteor nerf until they turn blue for all I care.

Fix streak. Or Fix frags. Or don’t bother. Stop patting the devs on the back for this mess.

Every other class is happy that we’re free AP, and can’t compete seriously in duels. They’re happy that we can’t stun, fracture, defile, force, maim, or breach on our class skills. They’re happy that we can’t escape with our one escape tool because it’s so much worse than speed pots with a gap closer.

I’m not. I’m sick of the fake-sorc nightblade mains here trying to pee on me and tell me it’s raining. Get bent!

TL DR: world is ending, sorc is the worst class in game - needs YUUGE buffs. Also, anyone’s opinion that’s not a sorc main is irrelevant even though they played sorc long enough and are probably better than many “sorc mains”.

I swear sometimes the sorc community is worse than the magdk one.

Besides his rant, he does have a point. The world is not ending and Sorc doesn't need a huge buff at all, but the loss of stun from frags was quite harmful in terms of build diversity and finding enough bar space for skills. That's not a made up situation, that's the reality.

I personally always maintained that the 20% buff can go (or be part of a morph that doesn't stun) so long as one morph of the skill has a proc with a stun. You need the skill to have that utility to save you from having to slot another single target stun which you don't really have space for. Even if the price for that utility is lower damage. Because currently it's neither a spammable, nor stun. It's not offering a buff or a debuff. And as a pure burst damage skill it ranks below comparable skills like Grim Focus and Shalks.

I just accepted the fact that ZOS never really revert nerfs and moved on. But the point does still stand and it's a valid one.

Oh I agree, the stun removal on frags was completely unwarranted and I hated it. I would argue that sorc is the class with the most bar space trouble. Unlike other classes, the skills aren’t overloaded like incap, surprise attack etc. and I can’t see why they’d take away the little we had left.

Either take away the extra damage or the stun, not both >_< but then again, we all know wrobel won’t back down on his decisions so all there is to be done now is hope something else changes to make up for it.

Vahrokh · April 2018

ToRelax wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

The most differentiating skills in the Sorc toolkit used to be Bolt Escape, Surge and Negate, all of which were nerfed heavily within the first year of the game.

That's why I did not mention those. 2014 stuff is out of the radar now.

Slowly but surely, they took away ALL our best stuff.

No, buffing 15% some pointless morph nobody shall use anyway, is not the way to make sorcs fun again.

It's sad when one can say his best time of a game, were closed beta days (and even then, it was far from perfect: pets were totally useless and even buggier than now).

Nota Bene:

Being mostly a PvE player I am not interested at all at achieving sorc OP-ness in PvP.

I "just" vividly recall how fun and awesome sorcs were as a class some years ago and how in the past one could truly see most classes doing most "jobs" vs today's one trick ponies with 1 BiS choice and screw any difference.

Joy_Division · April 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

The most differentiating skills in the Sorc toolkit used to be Bolt Escape, Surge and Negate, all of which were nerfed heavily within the first year of the game.

That's why I did not mention those. 2014 stuff is out of the radar now.

Slowly but surely, they took away ALL our best stuff.

No, buffing 15% some pointless morph nobody shall use anyway, is not the way to make sorcs fun again.

It's sad when one can say his best time of a game, were closed beta days (and even then, it was far from perfect: pets were totally useless and even buggier than now).

Nota Bene:

Being mostly a PvE player I am not interested at all at achieving sorc OP-ness in PvP.

I "just" vividly recall how fun and awesome sorcs were as a class some years ago and how in the past one could truly see most classes doing most "jobs" vs today's one trick ponies with 1 BiS choice and screw any difference.

The same can be said for every class.

One would think game-play and class diversity should improve during the course of a game, no?

Irylia · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Sorc wipes the floor with magblade 1v1. It’s one of those Rock Paper Scissors matchup, while sorc is average against any other class.

Saying that magblade is “just a better sorc” is simply ignorant. They’re as different as they come, lol. Not to mention that magblade has an inclination to play a bit more close range (incap, concealed if 2h which is BiS this patch) while sorc is a pure ranged class.

@Micah_Bayer

ToRelax · April 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

The most differentiating skills in the Sorc toolkit used to be Bolt Escape, Surge and Negate, all of which were nerfed heavily within the first year of the game.

That's why I did not mention those. 2014 stuff is out of the radar now.

Slowly but surely, they took away ALL our best stuff.

No, buffing 15% some pointless morph nobody shall use anyway, is not the way to make sorcs fun again.

It's sad when one can say his best time of a game, were closed beta days (and even then, it was far from perfect: pets were totally useless and even buggier than now).

Nota Bene:

Being mostly a PvE player I am not interested at all at achieving sorc OP-ness in PvP.

I "just" vividly recall how fun and awesome sorcs were as a class some years ago and how in the past one could truly see most classes doing most "jobs" vs today's one trick ponies with 1 BiS choice and screw any difference.

Indeed...

For three years now my main complaint about the class has been that there isn't a real alternative to damage shields as a defense for magicka, and still no end in sight.

Minalan · April 2018

Subversus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I love how everyone says ‘blaaah frags was overloaded’ because of a *** stun.

Meanwhile none of our skills grant defile, breach, fracture (for the stam Sorcs), maim, force, or six attacks with a 20% damage bonus, etc. incap strike is overloaded, not frags.

One of our ultimates grants berserk to someone ELSE FFS. What the hell is that?! Why did they bother fixing the other storm Atro morph and not add some other decent self buff to it?

We had a stun, on our ONE instant damage skill, that’s tied to a *** proc that doesn’t go off 66% of the time. We lost it, and our class was never compensated elsewhere for it. Minor Fracture or minor force would have been a good substitute, but that never happened.

Now everyone is cheering for a few minor passive buffs. They can keep the 200 Magicka on my next flame reach when I block something. They can shove the 3K damage on cage where the sun doesn’t shine. They can choke on the meteor nerf until they turn blue for all I care.

Fix streak. Or Fix frags. Or don’t bother. Stop patting the devs on the back for this mess.

Every other class is happy that we’re free AP, and can’t compete seriously in duels. They’re happy that we can’t stun, fracture, defile, force, maim, or breach on our class skills. They’re happy that we can’t escape with our one escape tool because it’s so much worse than speed pots with a gap closer.

I’m not. I’m sick of the fake-sorc nightblade mains here trying to pee on me and tell me it’s raining. Get bent!

TL DR: world is ending, sorc is the worst class in game - needs YUUGE buffs. Also, anyone’s opinion that’s not a sorc main is irrelevant even though they played sorc long enough and are probably better than many “sorc mains”.

I swear sometimes the sorc community is worse than the magdk one.

Are you a nightblade? Or do you even play against good players?

Streak. Frags. They need a buff.

Streak: much worse than speed pots and gap closers. Needs buff.

Frags: needs minor breach or something. We are the only class in the game with NO DEBUFFS.

Simple enough for you?

Svidrir · April 2018

A little message, in case devs pass.

I have already mentioned it a bit earlier but more precisely:

I think I noticed that for a lot of player sorcerer stamina a great frustration is not to be able to ustilized spells of attacking class thunderbolts, in the imagination of many there must be among others a certain god of thunder among others.

A lightning spell is almost never used in pvp: Lightning Field and in pve it seems to me that only the morph of small size and long duration is used, why not make a moph stam with the one not used (on the principle hurricane for example).

Maulkin · April 2018

I actually think Streak is absolutely fine for MagSorcs. I can certainly get enough casts out of it that it's useful enough without it being a guaranteed escape. I thought pre-nerf it was OP if I'm honest.

If I could change anything for it, that is the cost scaling for low magicka builds. A.k.a. StamSorcs. I think It's pretty poor how as a StamSorc in BGs with Shackle, tri-grlyphs and 14k Magicka I can get only 2 casts of Streak (3rd streak puts total cost at +16k magicka when you have no cost reduction). But with same build on Stamblade I can get 4 cloaks if I constantly get pulled out of it or, 5-6 if I'm not. More with pots.

When the nerf came I proposed that the cost increase is dictated by a variable which depends on your Max Magicka. I had suggested 5% for every 5k max magicka you had. So 10k magicka = 10% increase. 50k magicka = 50% increase. Those would be the extremes sorta speak. So both variants would get to use this crucial utility skill somewhat more evenly. And that max magicka builds would not be so essential for the class. Sadly it fell on deaf ears.

But like I said, I strongly disagree that Streak currently needs a buff for magSorcs.

Aedaryl · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

I actually think Streak is absolutely fine for MagSorcs. I can certainly get enough casts out of it that it's useful enough without it being a guaranteed escape. I thought pre-nerf it was OP if I'm honest.

If I could change anything for it, that is the cost scaling for low magicka builds. A.k.a. StamSorcs. I think It's pretty poor how as a StamSorc in BGs with Shackle, tri-grlyphs and 14k Magicka I can get only 2 casts of Streak (3rd streak puts total cost at +16k magicka when you have no cost reduction). But with same build on Stamblade I can get 4 cloaks if I constantly get pulled out of it or, 5-6 if I'm not. More with pots.

When the nerf came I proposed that the cost increase is dictated by a variable which depends on your Max Magicka. I had suggested 5% for every 5k max magicka you had. So 10k magicka = 10% increase. 50k magicka = 50% increase. Those would be the extremes sorta speak. So both variants would get to use this crucial utility skill somewhat more evenly. And that max magicka builds would not be so essential for the class. Sadly it fell on deaf ears.

But like I said, I strongly disagree that Streak currently needs a buff for magSorcs.

That's just stupid, sorry.

Why streak was "OP" ? Because you could spam it ?

Guess what sorc are doing right now.

WE SPAM STREAK with dark exchange, nothing has changed on the spammable side, sorc streak away like before, the difference is that now, we are BIND with dark exchange, and it's REDUCE our space bar even more.

Streak need buff because we are punished to use our mobility ability, the one countering by people taking their horse, spamming gapcloser or are stamina based with a lingering + speed potion with sprint.

There is different ways to use streak :

For in fight mobility
For escape
For stun/damage

ZoS wanted to nerf the escape part, but they nerfed the damage and the mobility one, while escaping is still the same thx to dark exchange.

Streak need to be a mobilty skill again.

We should be able to take range without being punished to do it. You can't streak for being mobile in fight anymore.

Streak need to be buffed so we can use it in fight for repositioning.

Maulkin · April 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

That's just stupid, sorry.

Why streak was "OP" ? Because you could spam it ?

Guess what sorc are doing right now.

WE SPAM STREAK with dark exchange, nothing has changed on the spammable side, sorc streak away like before, the difference is that now, we are BIND with dark exchange, and it's REDUCE our space bar even more.

I mean do I have to really explain things? Really?

That on 45k magicka and 2.8k Streak cost, you could do 16 Streaks before without Dark Deal or pots? Can you do 16 streaks now without exiting cooldown? 6th Streak has a 32k cost btw. Can you? Can you spam it? Cause if you can, then show me a vid but if you can't then stop talking non-sense

Doing 3 streaks, couple of dark deals, waiting for the cool down to go out and repeat... that's not spamming the skill, is it? That creates a window for someone to catch you up and you have to utilise both resources, instead of just magicka. Increasing your risk of dying if you get caught.

I don't know about you, but I don't have to re-position in combat every 2". I can re-position and wait for the cooldown to go down. Otherwise you're not "re-positioning", you're escaping.

Minalan · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

That's just stupid, sorry.

Why streak was "OP" ? Because you could spam it ?

Guess what sorc are doing right now.

WE SPAM STREAK with dark exchange, nothing has changed on the spammable side, sorc streak away like before, the difference is that now, we are BIND with dark exchange, and it's REDUCE our space bar even more.

I mean do I have to really explain things? Really?

That on 45k magicka and 2.8k Streak cost, you could do 16 Streaks before without Dark Deal or pots? Can you do 16 streaks now without exiting cooldown? 6th Streak has a 32k cost btw. Can you? Can you spam it? Cause if you can, then show me a vid but if you can't then stop talking non-sense

Doing 3 streaks, couple of dark deals, waiting for the cool down to go out and repeat... that's not spamming the skill, is it? That creates a window for someone to catch you up and you have to utilise both resources, instead of just magicka. Increasing your risk of dying if you get caught.

I don't know about you, but I don't have to re-position in combat every 2". I can re-position and wait for the cooldown to go down. Otherwise you're not "re-positioning", you're escaping.

Yeah, if streak were any better, it’s be just like your nightblade main’s cloak right?

The fix I want is to lose the stacking cost if I hit someone with it. I don’t see a problem with repositioning every few seconds if stamina characters can jump and outdistance me in one button press with no cost increase issues.

Given what any speed pot stamina character can do, We should be able to streak more than three or four times before we have to dark deal. Period. Cloak doesn’t have an increasing cost penalty, and the one on dodge roll is tiny. Only Sorcs really get *** here.

A nightblade can just keep jumping to you forever basically. But that’s balanced somehow! (It’s not)

Beardimus · April 2018

^ perfect

Beardimus · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I love how everyone says ‘blaaah frags was overloaded’ because of a *** stun.

Meanwhile none of our skills grant defile, breach, fracture (for the stam Sorcs), maim, force, or six attacks with a 20% damage bonus, etc. incap strike is overloaded, not frags.

One of our ultimates grants berserk to someone ELSE FFS. What the hell is that?! Why did they bother fixing the other storm Atro morph and not add some other decent self buff to it?

We had a stun, on our ONE instant damage skill, that’s tied to a *** proc that doesn’t go off 66% of the time. We lost it, and our class was never compensated elsewhere for it. Minor Fracture or minor force would have been a good substitute, but that never happened.

Now everyone is cheering for a few minor passive buffs. They can keep the 200 Magicka on my next flame reach when I block something. They can shove the 3K damage on cage where the sun doesn’t shine. They can choke on the meteor nerf until they turn blue for all I care.

Fix streak. Or Fix frags. Or don’t bother. Stop patting the devs on the back for this mess.

Every other class is happy that we’re free AP, and can’t compete seriously in duels. They’re happy that we can’t stun, fracture, defile, force, maim, or breach on our class skills. They’re happy that we can’t escape with our one escape tool because it’s so much worse than speed pots with a gap closer.

I’m not. I’m sick of the fake-sorc nightblade mains here trying to pee on me and tell me it’s raining. Get bent!

TL DR: world is ending, sorc is the worst class in game - needs YUUGE buffs. Also, anyone’s opinion that’s not a sorc main is irrelevant even though they played sorc long enough and are probably better than many “sorc mains”.

I swear sometimes the sorc community is worse than the magdk one.

Are you a nightblade? Or do you even play against good players?

Streak. Frags. They need a buff.

Streak: much worse than speed pots and gap closers. Needs buff.

Frags: needs minor breach or something. We are the only class in the game with NO DEBUFFS.

Simple enough for you?

Spot on. Gimme

Maulkin · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

That's just stupid, sorry.

Why streak was "OP" ? Because you could spam it ?

Guess what sorc are doing right now.

WE SPAM STREAK with dark exchange, nothing has changed on the spammable side, sorc streak away like before, the difference is that now, we are BIND with dark exchange, and it's REDUCE our space bar even more.

I mean do I have to really explain things? Really?

That on 45k magicka and 2.8k Streak cost, you could do 16 Streaks before without Dark Deal or pots? Can you do 16 streaks now without exiting cooldown? 6th Streak has a 32k cost btw. Can you? Can you spam it? Cause if you can, then show me a vid but if you can't then stop talking non-sense

Doing 3 streaks, couple of dark deals, waiting for the cool down to go out and repeat... that's not spamming the skill, is it? That creates a window for someone to catch you up and you have to utilise both resources, instead of just magicka. Increasing your risk of dying if you get caught.

I don't know about you, but I don't have to re-position in combat every 2". I can re-position and wait for the cooldown to go down. Otherwise you're not "re-positioning", you're escaping.

Yeah, if streak were any better, it’s be just like your nightblade main’s cloak right?

The fix I want is to lose the stacking cost if I hit someone with it. I don’t see a problem with repositioning every few seconds if stamina characters can jump and outdistance me in one button press with no cost increase issues.

Given what any speed pot stamina character can do, We should be able to streak more than three or four times before we have to dark deal. Period.

A nightblade can just keep jumping to you forever basically. But that’s balanced somehow! (It’s not)

The difference with Cloak is that, unlike Streak, you don't get any serious benefits from it if you get immediately pulled out. You might force a mid-air projectile to miss, but that's about it. You're still there, still slowed to ***, still taking damage from all DoTs, you haven't done any damage and you haven't healed. The magicka is quite literally wasted.

Whereas with Streak, you move. You do damage if you hit anything. You stun non blocking/CC-immune targets. You can do 3 streaks into LOS cover. You can streak into a friendly zerg for protection. You always get the stated benefit from casting the skill and no-one rally can do anything to cancel that. You don't always get 4 seconds invis from Cloak

Although generally I think invis needs more counterplay in this game and Cloak needs more base benefit to balance things out.

PS. I'm a Sorc main. My NB is Lieutenant. My Sorc is Legate. And that's by playing basically only BGs an duels since they came out.

King_Thelon · April 2018

Your sorc is a legate and you think you're an authority on the class? Please youngling. You know full well that sorc has lower mobility than any stam class, as others have tried to explain to you. The class was designed around mobility, which has been all but stripped entirely because younglings Q Q when they get kited and outplayed.

Minalan · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

That's just stupid, sorry.

Why streak was "OP" ? Because you could spam it ?

Guess what sorc are doing right now.

WE SPAM STREAK with dark exchange, nothing has changed on the spammable side, sorc streak away like before, the difference is that now, we are BIND with dark exchange, and it's REDUCE our space bar even more.

I mean do I have to really explain things? Really?

That on 45k magicka and 2.8k Streak cost, you could do 16 Streaks before without Dark Deal or pots? Can you do 16 streaks now without exiting cooldown? 6th Streak has a 32k cost btw. Can you? Can you spam it? Cause if you can, then show me a vid but if you can't then stop talking non-sense

Doing 3 streaks, couple of dark deals, waiting for the cool down to go out and repeat... that's not spamming the skill, is it? That creates a window for someone to catch you up and you have to utilise both resources, instead of just magicka. Increasing your risk of dying if you get caught.

I don't know about you, but I don't have to re-position in combat every 2". I can re-position and wait for the cooldown to go down. Otherwise you're not "re-positioning", you're escaping.

Yeah, if streak were any better, it’s be just like your nightblade main’s cloak right?

The fix I want is to lose the stacking cost if I hit someone with it. I don’t see a problem with repositioning every few seconds if stamina characters can jump and outdistance me in one button press with no cost increase issues.

Given what any speed pot stamina character can do, We should be able to streak more than three or four times before we have to dark deal. Period.

A nightblade can just keep jumping to you forever basically. But that’s balanced somehow! (It’s not)

The difference with Cloak is that, unlike Streak, you don't get any serious benefits from it if you get immediately pulled out. You might force a mid-air projectile to miss, but that's about it. You're still there, still slowed to ***, still taking damage from all DoTs, you haven't done any damage and you haven't healed. The magicka is quite literally wasted.

Whereas with Streak, you move. You do damage if you hit anything. You stun non blocking/CC-immune targets. You can do 3 streaks into LOS cover. You can streak into a friendly zerg for protection. You always get the stated benefit from casting the skill and no-one rally can do anything to cancel that. You don't always get 4 seconds invis from Cloak

Although generally I think invis needs more counterplay in this game and Cloak needs more base benefit to balance things out.

PS. I'm a Sorc main. My NB is Lieutenant. My Sorc is Legate. And that's by playing basically only BGs an duels since they came out.

Your so-called “lieutenant’s” gap closer is still better than streak in every way. I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t be able to hit it just a couple more times. The stacking nerf isn’t a ‘penalty’, it’s a complete *** castration of the skill.

It shouldn’t even have a cost penalty if I’m using it as a weapon.

Maulkin · April 2018

King_Thelon wrote: »

Your sorc is a legate and you think you're an authority on the class? Please youngling. You know full well that sorc has lower mobility than any stam class, as others have tried to explain to you. The class was designed around mobility, which has been all but stripped entirely because younglings Q Q when they get kited and outplayed.

I don't pretend to be an authority on the class, more than I pretend that AP gained = Experience

Beardimus · April 2018

In particular post morrowind and sustain changes.

Maulkin · April 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

That's just stupid, sorry.

Why streak was "OP" ? Because you could spam it ?

Guess what sorc are doing right now.

WE SPAM STREAK with dark exchange, nothing has changed on the spammable side, sorc streak away like before, the difference is that now, we are BIND with dark exchange, and it's REDUCE our space bar even more.

I mean do I have to really explain things? Really?

That on 45k magicka and 2.8k Streak cost, you could do 16 Streaks before without Dark Deal or pots? Can you do 16 streaks now without exiting cooldown? 6th Streak has a 32k cost btw. Can you? Can you spam it? Cause if you can, then show me a vid but if you can't then stop talking non-sense

Doing 3 streaks, couple of dark deals, waiting for the cool down to go out and repeat... that's not spamming the skill, is it? That creates a window for someone to catch you up and you have to utilise both resources, instead of just magicka. Increasing your risk of dying if you get caught.

I don't know about you, but I don't have to re-position in combat every 2". I can re-position and wait for the cooldown to go down. Otherwise you're not "re-positioning", you're escaping.

Yeah, if streak were any better, it’s be just like your nightblade main’s cloak right?

The fix I want is to lose the stacking cost if I hit someone with it. I don’t see a problem with repositioning every few seconds if stamina characters can jump and outdistance me in one button press with no cost increase issues.

Given what any speed pot stamina character can do, We should be able to streak more than three or four times before we have to dark deal. Period.

A nightblade can just keep jumping to you forever basically. But that’s balanced somehow! (It’s not)

The difference with Cloak is that, unlike Streak, you don't get any serious benefits from it if you get immediately pulled out. You might force a mid-air projectile to miss, but that's about it. You're still there, still slowed to ***, still taking damage from all DoTs, you haven't done any damage and you haven't healed. The magicka is quite literally wasted.

Whereas with Streak, you move. You do damage if you hit anything. You stun non blocking/CC-immune targets. You can do 3 streaks into LOS cover. You can streak into a friendly zerg for protection. You always get the stated benefit from casting the skill and no-one rally can do anything to cancel that. You don't always get 4 seconds invis from Cloak

Although generally I think invis needs more counterplay in this game and Cloak needs more base benefit to balance things out.

PS. I'm a Sorc main. My NB is Lieutenant. My Sorc is Legate. And that's by playing basically only BGs an duels since they came out.

Your so-called “lieutenant’s” gap closer is still better than streak in every way. I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t be able to hit it just a couple more times. The stacking nerf isn’t a ‘penalty’, it’s a complete *** castration of the skill.

It shouldn’t even have a cost penalty if I’m using it as a weapon.

A gap closer requires a target. You think Teleport Strike is better than Streak in every way? Ok

I can't help you buddy.

King_Thelon · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

I don't pretend to be an authority on the class

Yet your drivel in this thread is outshined only by the youngling who thinks that MagSorc is better than MagBlade in duels.