Sorcerer Summerset Changes Discussion

Beardimus

bardx86 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m not happy with the changes at all. We asked for damage, and didn’t get it. Meanwhile every other class has had their heals buffed.

We have two class attacks. Two. Curse and frags. Wrath is an execute. Rune cage is a CC. Frags needs the full 20% back on a proc because we can’t empower it. Meteor is going to suck without the self empower.

* Rune cage is nice, but I use the defensive rune morph. It lasts for two minutes, and it’s an instant “F*** you” to bow gankers. It’s necessary given the number of these idiots out there, it FEELS like about half of the PVP population sometimes.

Last night Defensive rune caught a gank spec stam nightblade who jumped me, so I turned a soul assaulted him to death. I got angry tells for ten straight minutes. It was pure joy.

* I’ll probably be slotting ‘Acceleration’ instead of boundless storm for the 12 second burst window with minor force. I don’t think anyone here yet realizes how good that is.

* Bound Aegis change is nice, but it won’t take the place of mage light on my bar. There are just too many damn nightblades out there. You really need it for the reveal, mage light plus streak, light up in the direction where you last saw the nightblade and usually you can catch them.

I’m currently built to ‘L2P’ survive in elder stamblades online, given the cool buffs they just received I don’t see my setup changing. I don’t see the stamblade meta changing.

What I DONT want to do, but might need to just to keep up with the crappy meta Eric just built: slot rune cage, curse, and degeneration on the overload bar. Curse, degeneration cancel rune cage cancel overload light attack. Boom: 3K Rune Cage, 6K Curse, 18K overload. Maybe a quick wrath if they’re still alive by some miracle. It’s crap and everyone out there is going to do it to you too.

Holy rant, batman.

Every change we've seen so far, is a buff. It's the first update for I don't know how long...since before Morrowing for sure, that Sorcs are getting buffs without getting nerfs too. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope they don't nerf it in PTS

Sorc burst damage is currently very decent. Light attacks scaling from Max Magicka as well, is a huge buff to Sorc pressure. 5-5-2 with staves is amazing, you can slot Slimecraw and buff your damage considerably if you want. Rune Cage getting damage on break is also increasing the burst in the curse-meteor-cage-frag combo.

This is good for Sorcs.

No it isn’t. The changes do nothing for sorcs current issues in Cyro outside of mine cost reduction.

You want to talk about burst go look at nb. They roll/cloak/shuffle the majority of your attacks while your burst is on a timer. Miss one piece of that combo and you need to reset. Meanwhile these nb’s are incapping for half my hp into surprise attack/bow and instant executes killing through ward stacks.

Hundings spriggan bs build and able to out sustain and reliably use cloak and roll
(Zendran)

*** bonkers how much more damage stamina (templar, warden, dk) are able to put out while mitigating a sorcs measly 3 sec burst set up.

Sorc is good with killing bad players but my god it’s so annoying how hard you bash your head into stamina players with very little result.
Shimmering shield
Frost armor (minor protection)
Wings
Sb reflect
Purify
Cloak
Shuffle
Roll dodge

And these Stam toons in medium armor are laughing while they roll through 8k tooltip mines.
Having frag stun was extremely important for sorcs rotation and enabling damage to get through. Flame reach and prison actually lower your pressure.

I find your statements contradictory and exaggerated.

Exaggerated, because medium armour builds find Mines very problematic to fight against. I know, I have 2 PvP stam chars (StamSorc and StamBlade) in medium. No one rolls though mines like they're not there. It more often than not results in your death.

Contradictory, because first you list all the ways that stam toons "break" the Sorc combo mainly by avoiding/reflecting/absorbing/cloaking projectiles. Then you proceed to tell me that Crystal Frag stun (which suffers from all the problems you listed) is extremely important, while an undodgeable/unblockable CC and damage skill somehow makes things worse.

It obviously doesn't. Curse->Meteor->Cage (new version) will basically kill or drop into execute range the vast majority of medium builds out there. As for how you worked out that Flame Reach lowers pressure, that I don't know.

Anyhow, I just fail to see how these changes make Sorcs less capable at dishing burst and dealing with a wider variety of builds than before. I see those as changes in the right direction with the exception perhaps of the Empower changes.

Because frag stun doesn’t require another gcd in the combo like reach or prison.

You toss your frag and deal a chunk of dmg tied in with by the stun right on curse proc.

Saying rune prison is amazing because it is unavoidable then listing the combo as curse meteor prison is just stupid. You shouldn’t have to rely on a 180 costing ult to reach kill potential.

So here is the old rotation. Shock for frag proc. Fury, curse, shock frag on curse impact followed by shock/frag while stunned. Toss a db in if you have it as you move in closer during a burst.

New: reach for frag proc. Fury curse flame reach before curse pops because no non cc spammable? Frag then spam reach.

Reach animation is clunkier than shock and can’t be weaved with procs nearly as quickly.

Then there is the need for a master staff from vdsa a pve drop just to allow yourself a cost equivalent spam like shock. Your spammable is also reach so now you need an alternative way to proc frags or else you burn the cc if you don’t happen to proc before they are off cc immunity.

Rune prison has a slight delay before it enables and can’t be weaved as effectively as old frag. It requires a bar space on front thus dropping inner light crit chance and max mag dmg. when we used to have a stun built into our heavy hitter. Which is also more cost efficient on an intensive mag draining class.

Use it back bar and that’s a gcd to bar swap for your cc during combo.

Use defensive rune and open world it’s pulled randomly by whoever hits you and it may Not Be the correct target. Or duels it doesn’t cc during your burst because they don’t hit you.

So yes it Is much easier working with all the class counters to a sorc burst whenever your burst is revolved around a frag stun especially since the stun on frag wasn’t as as telegraphed like flame reach.

Hopefully this helps you understand.
I can assure you I know what I’m saying. Don’t believe me? I can get you a reference sheet with a dozen+ signatures

ill sign that

+1 well articulated @Irylia

Beardimus

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

7) Bound Armor is no longer a toggle. When activated, increases the amount of damage the caster can block by 20% for 3 seconds. In addition, Bound Aegis now grants both Minor Resistance buffs, while Bound Armaments now increases your Light Attack damage by 11%, but not your Heavy Attack damage.

I really hope ZOS keep Bound Arnaments & Bound Aegis the way it is instead of turning it into an unused cheap knockoff skill, because lets be honest here, it is a good sorcerer skill to have primarily for tanking & slightly easier resource management, but have you seen how cool the aesthetical appearance is when toggled active, it makes characters with Xivkyn helmets very sinister looking in a fashionably good way.

Disclaimer: the info mentioned is incomplete & may not be final, but it only means there can be room for improvement.

Here's my thoughts on how bound armor and its morphs could be worked:

• Bound Armor: Cost: [^] Magicka.
  Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion, creating a suit of Daedric mail that grants Minor Resolve & Minor Ward at all times, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320. While Toggled Active, The armor increases your Max Magicka by 5%
  
  Initially, putting Minor ward & resolve on the unmorphed skill could prove something but mainly it can help open more opportunities for the morphs,
  
• Bound Armaments: Cost: [^] Stamina.
  Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion, creating a suit of Daedric mail that grants Minor Resolve & Minor Ward at all times, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320. While Toggled Active, The armor increases your Max Stamina by 8% and applies minor brutality at all times, increasing your weapon damage by 5%.
  
  This may look the same to a degree, but dually note that while it may still possess minor ward & resolve, not only does this morph increase max stamina as per the usual, instead of increasing damage with light or heavy attacks, it now applies minor brutality, increasing weapon damage by 5%, similar to the buff from the Dragonknights "Mountains blessing" passive, but it is applied at all times while it is active, giving a bit of diversity for stamina orientated characters & promotes Tanking/DPS roles at the same time. I can literally see this morph working well for a lot of people.
  
• Bound Aegis: Cost: [^] Magicka.
  Protect yourself with the power of Oblivion, creating a suit of Daedric mail that grants Minor Resolve & Minor Ward at all times, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320. While Toggled Active, The armor increases your Max Magicka by 8% & Now Benefits from "Expert Summoner" Increasing your Maximum Health by 4-8%.
  
  With Bound Aegis, since Bound Armor now grants Both minor Ward & Resolve by default, I figured I would fit Bound Aegis in as an even tankier approach whilst retaining its Magicka Inducing properties, I did so by making it so that In addition to the 8% Max Magicka Bonus, it now also Benefits from the "Expert Summoner" Passive, Respectively increasing the casters Maximum Health by 4-8% respectively based on the Passives Level, thus giving Bound Aegis a more "Defensive Lean" as opposed to Bound Arnaments while also potentially freeing up an Ability slot for Magicka Orientated Tanks, namely those who use a Frost Staff with Sorcerers.

Please Do consider this in the long run for the summerset isles should it come down to changes for the Sorcerers Bound Armor & it's morphs respectively.

Please don't consider this zos. @Alpha-Lupi BA going non toggle is the only Plus in the changes, we save two skill slots. I wouldn't want health buff on one bar, as that imbalance can creat execute range issues on bar swap like entropy does. Non toggle.+8% magika I'm.happy with for offense bar.

Zeni0s

Bound Armor is no longer a toggle. When activated, increases the amount of damage the caster can block by 20% for 3 seconds.

I wonder if I'll be able to block the Zaans "Kneel or be crushed" from my dd sorc.

Otherwise the changes looks cool. But LL>LF, they should add a passive 2100 spell crit or something because it cost too much magicka overtime for less damages.

Minalan

Vaoh wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m not happy with the changes at all. We asked for damage, and didn’t get it. Meanwhile every other class has had their heals buffed.

We have two class attacks. Two. Curse and frags. Wrath is an execute. Rune cage is a CC. Frags needs the full 20% back on a proc because we can’t empower it. Meteor is going to suck without the self empower.

* Rune cage is nice, but I use the defensive rune morph. It lasts for two minutes, and it’s an instant “F*** you” to bow gankers. It’s necessary given the number of these idiots out there, it FEELS like about half of the PVP population sometimes.

Last night Defensive rune caught a gank spec stam nightblade who jumped me, so I turned a soul assaulted him to death. I got angry tells for ten straight minutes. It was pure joy.

* I’ll probably be slotting ‘Acceleration’ instead of boundless storm for the 12 second burst window with minor force. I don’t think anyone here yet realizes how good that is.

* Bound Aegis change is nice, but it won’t take the place of mage light on my bar. There are just too many damn nightblades out there. You really need it for the reveal, mage light plus streak, light up in the direction where you last saw the nightblade and usually you can catch them.

I’m currently built to ‘L2P’ survive in elder stamblades online, given the cool buffs they just received I don’t see my setup changing. I don’t see the stamblade meta changing.

What I DONT want to do, but might need to just to keep up with the crappy meta Eric just built: slot rune cage, curse, and degeneration on the overload bar. Curse, degeneration cancel rune cage cancel overload light attack. Boom: 3K Rune Cage, 6K Curse, 18K overload. Maybe a quick wrath if they’re still alive by some miracle. It’s crap and everyone out there is going to do it to you too.

Holy rant, batman.

Every change we've seen so far, is a buff. It's the first update for I don't know how long...since before Morrowing for sure, that Sorcs are getting buffs without getting nerfs too. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope they don't nerf it in PTS

Sorc burst damage is currently very decent. Light attacks scaling from Max Magicka as well, is a huge buff to Sorc pressure. 5-5-2 with staves is amazing, you can slot Slimecraw and buff your damage considerably if you want. Rune Cage getting damage on break is also increasing the burst in the curse-meteor-cage-frag combo.

This is good for Sorcs.

No it isn’t. The changes do nothing for sorcs current issues in Cyro outside of mine cost reduction.

You want to talk about burst go look at nb. They roll/cloak/shuffle the majority of your attacks while your burst is on a timer. Miss one piece of that combo and you need to reset. Meanwhile these nb’s are incapping for half my hp into surprise attack/bow and instant executes killing through ward stacks.

Hundings spriggan bs build and able to out sustain and reliably use cloak and roll
(Zendran)

*** bonkers how much more damage stamina (templar, warden, dk) are able to put out while mitigating a sorcs measly 3 sec burst set up.

Sorc is good with killing bad players but my god it’s so annoying how hard you bash your head into stamina players with very little result.
Shimmering shield
Frost armor (minor protection)
Wings
Sb reflect
Purify
Cloak
Shuffle
Roll dodge

And these Stam toons in medium armor are laughing while they roll through 8k tooltip mines.
Having frag stun was extremely important for sorcs rotation and enabling damage to get through. Flame reach and prison actually lower your pressure.

Hello, your unavoidable burst combo just got buffed by ~8k tooltip damage, your light attacks will do more damage and you get more set slots.

I can't believe that you complain about stamplar and stamdk...

Sorry, I’m not complaining about the vast majority of average players I’m talking about stamplars like kiri or dk’s like chief and being competitive enough to be able to match into them and not have your class inherently handicapped.

Open world pugs aren’t the issue. It’s when a player is even competent enough on their class that it generates such a lead over a sorc.

8k dmg to? Mines/prison/reach/LL?

Nice 2h sets for the master staff that you run for a cc. Oh yes use prison because its that much better. Haven’t you seen the meteor combo?! Right because I want to rely on casting a 4th ability in the combo just to stun and enable the dmg goes through or wait for the 180 cost meteor to push kills.


2h change also applies to everyone on classes that can already stack 2 damage sets and sustain better than sorc. While sorc runs shackle lich to maintain mag.

Light attack damage also applying to everyone and holy ****... wow. Light attack pressure. Damn. Amazing. Class saved

The "strong" stamplars and stamdk are running around with duel builds (because both classes are garbage on anything else so they just play duel builds in open world as well), it would be similar if people would take petsorc as reference for sorc balance. You will struggle against any duel build while running an open world build by yourself, that has been the case since over a year now, what do you expect suddenly? To be able to compete with duel cheese on an open world build (why should sorc be able to do that when no other class can't as well)?

And yes, the changes seem pretty nice. Sure we need to test that stuff first but it's too early for whine. Damage as soon as you break Runecage seems quite strong imo (and many sorc mains agree here).

How is a 4k cures and a 5k frag good damage? Cage or not, you are not going to kill ***. I've tried every damage built out there throwing regen to the wind and they are all still lacking. Damage on sorcs sucks!

Add meteor to that combo + ~8k tooltip dmg from Runecage and yes, that burst is actually dangerous, especially if you consider that it is unavoidable. High burst should never be unavoidable, otherwise the burst will get nerfed sooner or later to the point there it's not dangerous anymore.

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m not happy with the changes at all. We asked for damage, and didn’t get it. Meanwhile every other class has had their heals buffed.

We have two class attacks. Two. Curse and frags. Wrath is an execute. Rune cage is a CC. Frags needs the full 20% back on a proc because we can’t empower it. Meteor is going to suck without the self empower.

* Rune cage is nice, but I use the defensive rune morph. It lasts for two minutes, and it’s an instant “F*** you” to bow gankers. It’s necessary given the number of these idiots out there, it FEELS like about half of the PVP population sometimes.

Last night Defensive rune caught a gank spec stam nightblade who jumped me, so I turned a soul assaulted him to death. I got angry tells for ten straight minutes. It was pure joy.

* I’ll probably be slotting ‘Acceleration’ instead of boundless storm for the 12 second burst window with minor force. I don’t think anyone here yet realizes how good that is.

* Bound Aegis change is nice, but it won’t take the place of mage light on my bar. There are just too many damn nightblades out there. You really need it for the reveal, mage light plus streak, light up in the direction where you last saw the nightblade and usually you can catch them.

I’m currently built to ‘L2P’ survive in elder stamblades online, given the cool buffs they just received I don’t see my setup changing. I don’t see the stamblade meta changing.

What I DONT want to do, but might need to just to keep up with the crappy meta Eric just built: slot rune cage, curse, and degeneration on the overload bar. Curse, degeneration cancel rune cage cancel overload light attack. Boom: 3K Rune Cage, 6K Curse, 18K overload. Maybe a quick wrath if they’re still alive by some miracle. It’s crap and everyone out there is going to do it to you too.

Holy rant, batman.

Every change we've seen so far, is a buff. It's the first update for I don't know how long...since before Morrowing for sure, that Sorcs are getting buffs without getting nerfs too. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope they don't nerf it in PTS

Sorc burst damage is currently very decent. Light attacks scaling from Max Magicka as well, is a huge buff to Sorc pressure. 5-5-2 with staves is amazing, you can slot Slimecraw and buff your damage considerably if you want. Rune Cage getting damage on break is also increasing the burst in the curse-meteor-cage-frag combo.

This is good for Sorcs.

No it isn’t. The changes do nothing for sorcs current issues in Cyro outside of mine cost reduction.

You want to talk about burst go look at nb. They roll/cloak/shuffle the majority of your attacks while your burst is on a timer. Miss one piece of that combo and you need to reset. Meanwhile these nb’s are incapping for half my hp into surprise attack/bow and instant executes killing through ward stacks.

Hundings spriggan bs build and able to out sustain and reliably use cloak and roll
(Zendran)

*** bonkers how much more damage stamina (templar, warden, dk) are able to put out while mitigating a sorcs measly 3 sec burst set up.

Sorc is good with killing bad players but my god it’s so annoying how hard you bash your head into stamina players with very little result.
Shimmering shield
Frost armor (minor protection)
Wings
Sb reflect
Purify
Cloak
Shuffle
Roll dodge

And these Stam toons in medium armor are laughing while they roll through 8k tooltip mines.
Having frag stun was extremely important for sorcs rotation and enabling damage to get through. Flame reach and prison actually lower your pressure.

Hello, your unavoidable burst combo just got buffed by ~8k tooltip damage, your light attacks will do more damage and you get more set slots.

I can't believe that you complain about stamplar and stamdk...

Sorry, I’m not complaining about the vast majority of average players I’m talking about stamplars like kiri or dk’s like chief and being competitive enough to be able to match into them and not have your class inherently handicapped.

Open world pugs aren’t the issue. It’s when a player is even competent enough on their class that it generates such a lead over a sorc.

8k dmg to? Mines/prison/reach/LL?

Nice 2h sets for the master staff that you run for a cc. Oh yes use prison because its that much better. Haven’t you seen the meteor combo?! Right because I want to rely on casting a 4th ability in the combo just to stun and enable the dmg goes through or wait for the 180 cost meteor to push kills.


2h change also applies to everyone on classes that can already stack 2 damage sets and sustain better than sorc. While sorc runs shackle lich to maintain mag.

Light attack damage also applying to everyone and holy ****... wow. Light attack pressure. Damn. Amazing. Class saved

The "strong" stamplars and stamdk are running around with duel builds (because both classes are garbage on anything else so they just play duel builds in open world as well), it would be similar if people would take petsorc as reference for sorc balance. You will struggle against any duel build while running an open world build by yourself, that has been the case since over a year now, what do you expect suddenly? To be able to compete with duel cheese on an open world build (why should sorc be able to do that when no other class can't as well)?

And yes, the changes seem pretty nice. Sure we need to test that stuff first but it's too early for whine. Damage as soon as you break Runecage seems quite strong imo (and many sorc mains agree here).

They don’t run duel builds.
Kiri is in my guild and a friend not to mention a top stamplar. He runs the same sets open and duels.

Which isn’t even the issue seeing as how you as a sorc can run duel spec.

Tag the sorcs that are happier with prison over old frag.

Well, I would consider a high damage bleed build with low sustain as a more duel focused build. Sure, it can work open world and stamplar doesn't really have open world builds which aren't terrible bad, that's why I would run such a build too on stamplar. That doesn't change the fact that I don't see stamplar in a strong spot right now and I don't support any stamplar nerf requests (nor do I support any stamina nerf requests, there is no stamina PvP meta in my opinion outside of Nb and Warden which are only good because of Cloak/Shimmering). How would you nerf stamplar and stamdk if I might ask?
You can create a strong duel build too (even without pets) by getting 50k max magicka and/or playing with Shadowrend, especially next patch with a 5/5/2 setup. Not optimal for open world I guess but still playable in Cyro if it's important to you to be able to compete with "duel builds". (I find it pretty funny that magicka has way more options to play ultra cheese builds in duels than stamina has).

No sorc is happy about the Frag nerf. The nerf was horrible and destroyed build diversity. But again, this doesn't change the fact that Runecage has potential for the next patch.

Well I guess you don't PVP that much, an 8k tool tip will be around 1.5k damage, hardly dangerous.

Small buffs often have a huge impact. But thanks for assuming things without knowing [snip] about me

Minalan wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m not happy with the changes at all. We asked for damage, and didn’t get it. Meanwhile every other class has had their heals buffed.

We have two class attacks. Two. Curse and frags. Wrath is an execute. Rune cage is a CC. Frags needs the full 20% back on a proc because we can’t empower it. Meteor is going to suck without the self empower.

* Rune cage is nice, but I use the defensive rune morph. It lasts for two minutes, and it’s an instant “F*** you” to bow gankers. It’s necessary given the number of these idiots out there, it FEELS like about half of the PVP population sometimes.

Last night Defensive rune caught a gank spec stam nightblade who jumped me, so I turned a soul assaulted him to death. I got angry tells for ten straight minutes. It was pure joy.

* I’ll probably be slotting ‘Acceleration’ instead of boundless storm for the 12 second burst window with minor force. I don’t think anyone here yet realizes how good that is.

* Bound Aegis change is nice, but it won’t take the place of mage light on my bar. There are just too many damn nightblades out there. You really need it for the reveal, mage light plus streak, light up in the direction where you last saw the nightblade and usually you can catch them.

I’m currently built to ‘L2P’ survive in elder stamblades online, given the cool buffs they just received I don’t see my setup changing. I don’t see the stamblade meta changing.

What I DONT want to do, but might need to just to keep up with the crappy meta Eric just built: slot rune cage, curse, and degeneration on the overload bar. Curse, degeneration cancel rune cage cancel overload light attack. Boom: 3K Rune Cage, 6K Curse, 18K overload. Maybe a quick wrath if they’re still alive by some miracle. It’s crap and everyone out there is going to do it to you too.

Holy rant, batman.

Every change we've seen so far, is a buff. It's the first update for I don't know how long...since before Morrowing for sure, that Sorcs are getting buffs without getting nerfs too. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope they don't nerf it in PTS

Sorc burst damage is currently very decent. Light attacks scaling from Max Magicka as well, is a huge buff to Sorc pressure. 5-5-2 with staves is amazing, you can slot Slimecraw and buff your damage considerably if you want. Rune Cage getting damage on break is also increasing the burst in the curse-meteor-cage-frag combo.

This is good for Sorcs.

No it isn’t. The changes do nothing for sorcs current issues in Cyro outside of mine cost reduction.

You want to talk about burst go look at nb. They roll/cloak/shuffle the majority of your attacks while your burst is on a timer. Miss one piece of that combo and you need to reset. Meanwhile these nb’s are incapping for half my hp into surprise attack/bow and instant executes killing through ward stacks.

Hundings spriggan bs build and able to out sustain and reliably use cloak and roll
(Zendran)

*** bonkers how much more damage stamina (templar, warden, dk) are able to put out while mitigating a sorcs measly 3 sec burst set up.

Sorc is good with killing bad players but my god it’s so annoying how hard you bash your head into stamina players with very little result.
Shimmering shield
Frost armor (minor protection)
Wings
Sb reflect
Purify
Cloak
Shuffle
Roll dodge

And these Stam toons in medium armor are laughing while they roll through 8k tooltip mines.
Having frag stun was extremely important for sorcs rotation and enabling damage to get through. Flame reach and prison actually lower your pressure.

Hello, your unavoidable burst combo just got buffed by ~8k tooltip damage, your light attacks will do more damage and you get more set slots.

I can't believe that you complain about stamplar and stamdk...

Sorry, I’m not complaining about the vast majority of average players I’m talking about stamplars like kiri or dk’s like chief and being competitive enough to be able to match into them and not have your class inherently handicapped.

Open world pugs aren’t the issue. It’s when a player is even competent enough on their class that it generates such a lead over a sorc.

8k dmg to? Mines/prison/reach/LL?

Nice 2h sets for the master staff that you run for a cc. Oh yes use prison because its that much better. Haven’t you seen the meteor combo?! Right because I want to rely on casting a 4th ability in the combo just to stun and enable the dmg goes through or wait for the 180 cost meteor to push kills.


2h change also applies to everyone on classes that can already stack 2 damage sets and sustain better than sorc. While sorc runs shackle lich to maintain mag.

Light attack damage also applying to everyone and holy ****... wow. Light attack pressure. Damn. Amazing. Class saved

The "strong" stamplars and stamdk are running around with duel builds (because both classes are garbage on anything else so they just play duel builds in open world as well), it would be similar if people would take petsorc as reference for sorc balance. You will struggle against any duel build while running an open world build by yourself, that has been the case since over a year now, what do you expect suddenly? To be able to compete with duel cheese on an open world build (why should sorc be able to do that when no other class can't as well)?

And yes, the changes seem pretty nice. Sure we need to test that stuff first but it's too early for whine. Damage as soon as you break Runecage seems quite strong imo (and many sorc mains agree here).

How is a 4k cures and a 5k frag good damage? Cage or not, you are not going to kill ***. I've tried every damage built out there throwing regen to the wind and they are all still lacking. Damage on sorcs sucks!

Add meteor to that combo + ~8k tooltip dmg from Runecage and yes, that burst is actually dangerous, especially if you consider that it is unavoidable. High burst should never be unavoidable, otherwise the burst will get nerfed sooner or later to the point there it's not dangerous anymore.

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m not happy with the changes at all. We asked for damage, and didn’t get it. Meanwhile every other class has had their heals buffed.

We have two class attacks. Two. Curse and frags. Wrath is an execute. Rune cage is a CC. Frags needs the full 20% back on a proc because we can’t empower it. Meteor is going to suck without the self empower.

* Rune cage is nice, but I use the defensive rune morph. It lasts for two minutes, and it’s an instant “F*** you” to bow gankers. It’s necessary given the number of these idiots out there, it FEELS like about half of the PVP population sometimes.

Last night Defensive rune caught a gank spec stam nightblade who jumped me, so I turned a soul assaulted him to death. I got angry tells for ten straight minutes. It was pure joy.

* I’ll probably be slotting ‘Acceleration’ instead of boundless storm for the 12 second burst window with minor force. I don’t think anyone here yet realizes how good that is.

* Bound Aegis change is nice, but it won’t take the place of mage light on my bar. There are just too many damn nightblades out there. You really need it for the reveal, mage light plus streak, light up in the direction where you last saw the nightblade and usually you can catch them.

I’m currently built to ‘L2P’ survive in elder stamblades online, given the cool buffs they just received I don’t see my setup changing. I don’t see the stamblade meta changing.

What I DONT want to do, but might need to just to keep up with the crappy meta Eric just built: slot rune cage, curse, and degeneration on the overload bar. Curse, degeneration cancel rune cage cancel overload light attack. Boom: 3K Rune Cage, 6K Curse, 18K overload. Maybe a quick wrath if they’re still alive by some miracle. It’s crap and everyone out there is going to do it to you too.

Holy rant, batman.

Every change we've seen so far, is a buff. It's the first update for I don't know how long...since before Morrowing for sure, that Sorcs are getting buffs without getting nerfs too. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope they don't nerf it in PTS

Sorc burst damage is currently very decent. Light attacks scaling from Max Magicka as well, is a huge buff to Sorc pressure. 5-5-2 with staves is amazing, you can slot Slimecraw and buff your damage considerably if you want. Rune Cage getting damage on break is also increasing the burst in the curse-meteor-cage-frag combo.

This is good for Sorcs.

No it isn’t. The changes do nothing for sorcs current issues in Cyro outside of mine cost reduction.

You want to talk about burst go look at nb. They roll/cloak/shuffle the majority of your attacks while your burst is on a timer. Miss one piece of that combo and you need to reset. Meanwhile these nb’s are incapping for half my hp into surprise attack/bow and instant executes killing through ward stacks.

Hundings spriggan bs build and able to out sustain and reliably use cloak and roll
(Zendran)

*** bonkers how much more damage stamina (templar, warden, dk) are able to put out while mitigating a sorcs measly 3 sec burst set up.

Sorc is good with killing bad players but my god it’s so annoying how hard you bash your head into stamina players with very little result.
Shimmering shield
Frost armor (minor protection)
Wings
Sb reflect
Purify
Cloak
Shuffle
Roll dodge

And these Stam toons in medium armor are laughing while they roll through 8k tooltip mines.
Having frag stun was extremely important for sorcs rotation and enabling damage to get through. Flame reach and prison actually lower your pressure.

Hello, your unavoidable burst combo just got buffed by ~8k tooltip damage, your light attacks will do more damage and you get more set slots.

I can't believe that you complain about stamplar and stamdk...

Sorry, I’m not complaining about the vast majority of average players I’m talking about stamplars like kiri or dk’s like chief and being competitive enough to be able to match into them and not have your class inherently handicapped.

Open world pugs aren’t the issue. It’s when a player is even competent enough on their class that it generates such a lead over a sorc.

8k dmg to? Mines/prison/reach/LL?

Nice 2h sets for the master staff that you run for a cc. Oh yes use prison because its that much better. Haven’t you seen the meteor combo?! Right because I want to rely on casting a 4th ability in the combo just to stun and enable the dmg goes through or wait for the 180 cost meteor to push kills.


2h change also applies to everyone on classes that can already stack 2 damage sets and sustain better than sorc. While sorc runs shackle lich to maintain mag.

Light attack damage also applying to everyone and holy ****... wow. Light attack pressure. Damn. Amazing. Class saved

The "strong" stamplars and stamdk are running around with duel builds (because both classes are garbage on anything else so they just play duel builds in open world as well), it would be similar if people would take petsorc as reference for sorc balance. You will struggle against any duel build while running an open world build by yourself, that has been the case since over a year now, what do you expect suddenly? To be able to compete with duel cheese on an open world build (why should sorc be able to do that when no other class can't as well)?

And yes, the changes seem pretty nice. Sure we need to test that stuff first but it's too early for whine. Damage as soon as you break Runecage seems quite strong imo (and many sorc mains agree here).

They don’t run duel builds.
Kiri is in my guild and a friend not to mention a top stamplar. He runs the same sets open and duels.

Which isn’t even the issue seeing as how you as a sorc can run duel spec.

Tag the sorcs that are happier with prison over old frag.

Well, I would consider a high damage bleed build with low sustain as a more duel focused build. Sure, it can work open world and stamplar doesn't really have open world builds which aren't terrible bad, that's why I would run such a build too on stamplar. That doesn't change the fact that I don't see stamplar in a strong spot right now and I don't support any stamplar nerf requests (nor do I support any stamina nerf requests, there is no stamina PvP meta in my opinion outside of Nb and Warden which are only good because of Cloak/Shimmering). How would you nerf stamplar and stamdk if I might ask?
You can create a strong duel build too (even without pets) by getting 50k max magicka and/or playing with Shadowrend, especially next patch with a 5/5/2 setup. Not optimal for open world I guess but still playable in Cyro if it's important to you to be able to compete with "duel builds". (I find it pretty funny that magicka has way more options to play ultra cheese builds in duels than stamina has).

No sorc is happy about the Frag nerf. The nerf was horrible and destroyed build diversity. But again, this doesn't change the fact that Runecage has potential for the next patch.

Well I guess you don't PVP that much, an 8k tool tip will be around 1.5k damage, hardly dangerous.

It’ll be 2-3K, about what you get off a light attack. I wouldn’t say no to it, but it’s not much to write home about.

I’m sure rune cage is nice with a meteor/curse/frag combo, stop trying to convince me. But the *point* @Irylia was trying to make is this: We shouldn’t have to save up that much ultimate just to get *one* cheap, unavoidable no-skill macro kill.

We used to be able to drop and kill nightblades with a stun enabled empowered frag combo with curse and wrath. We used to be able to save ultimates for when they are needed most - multiple opponents standing together. Now we can’t. So should we be happy about being able to pull some cheap unavoidable rune cage burst stunt?

No. I’m not. Sorry.

And that's exactly the problem. Do you want to say that sorc was balanced when the class could kill people without an ultimate while being unkillable with 3 shields, Skelly Pirate, Shuffle and vampire? I guess not and yes, it was the only patch there I only played my own sorc because of how ridiculous the class was (even 5k+ health regen heavy armor tanks did just melt). God forbid that sorcs can't win duels anymore without popping ults (well I guess petsorcs still can lul).

Do I think that sorc is in a great spot currently? Not really. Do I think that the buffs look promising? Absolutely. No other class benefits as much from light attacks scaling change, from 2h weapons counting as 2 setpieces and from a direct buff to the class. I don't care if you like combos with Runecage or not, fact is that I see sorc as very dangerous with some extra damage on Runecage. Sure I might be wrong there, needs to be tested out once the patch hits the PTS. But complaining and pretending that the changes doesn't favour sorc more than a dual wield stamplar is unknowable.

Riddle me this: what other class relies on Meteor as primary dmg ult of choice?

If the Summerset changes go through in their current state, the amount of dmg I'm looking at losing on Meteor is close to the dmg I stand to gain from a guaranteed Rune Cage. Then there's two more factors to consider with that shift: one, the dmg I'm losing is instant controlled dmg (it's part of Meteor's hit after all) while what I'm gaining is dmg that is fundamentally untimeable because it's dependent on whenever the target decides to CC break - in fact, it's going to be a delayed part of the burst at best by design because I have to time the Rune Cage to CC them right as Meteor hits, that's another split second for someone to heal them. And two, Rune Cage can still give me that same dmg on Live if the target ends up eating the CC - meaning my max possible burst on Live is theoretically higher.

My point here is, this Rune Cage change isn't actually giving any 'extra dmg' to the standard Rune Cage combo.

Will the light atk scaling 'make up' for that? A) I doubt it, B ) If it's enough to significantly increase burst, then I'd argue that it's too much of a boost to light atks in general, and C) It's not a sorc specific buff.

[Edited for quote]

Stop wasting your time. You’re talking to ppl who can’t be convinced of this stuff. They’ve already told themselves for years now that Mag Sorc is forever OP.

We have a few ‘false flag’ Sorcs gaslighting this thread.

Fix Meteor!

GrigorijMalahevich

#nerfsorc ?

Though, I must agree, most of the dynamic changes favour sorcs, at least it feels like that.

Tasear

since dps don't want charged storm annotach then can healers have it?

Instead of extra health how about more access to the synergy?

DoobZ69

I main a stamsorc tank since beta (I have the monkey to prove it). It is my only lvl 25+ toon. Ive been abused and put down by all manner of folks for not tanking as DK. All of which I have proven wrong. I think these changes are a great step forward in allowing the idea of (any class+ any role).

Everyone should have the ability to play what they enjoy and be judged on their performance than purely on the limitations of their class. Its still early days on the proposed changes but I hope they are as favourable to all in the end as they currently seem to be for my setup.

Cheers!

Maulkin

The loss of Empower would be pretty bad for certain magicka builds. I'm not sure what ZOS' idea is behind this. It's the only change I don't like from the list of incoming changes.

If the target is to nerf one-shot gank builds like DW Overload Sorc or some Snipe builds, then all they need to do is make Magelight pop you out of stealth. You know, since you are summoning a massive floating lightbulb around you it hardly makes sense that you maintain crouch invisibility and stealth bonus. That would mean that you either get Stealth dmg bonus or Empower bonus but not both.

If the target is to nerf ultimate empowering in general then like I said, I'm not sure what they're thinking. If you think of the ults that get routinely empowered, it's Meteor (via itself or Entropy), Ferocious Leap (via Entropy) and Incap (via Ambush). That's it. DBoS can be empowered by Wrecking Blow, but hardly anyone is using Wrecking Blow over Dizzy Swing in PvP anyways.

Also, since Incap is mostly about buffs/debuffs and is not the hardest hitting ultimate, if you compare these two moves:
1) Ambush->LA (empowered) + Incap
2) Ambush->Incap (empowered)

...then #1 does more total damage. That light attack will hit in no-CP PvP for 2-3k, depending on target resistances, which is way more than what you get from Empowering Incap. Thus the proposed change to Empower, is actually buffing the way Stamblade already plays its move.

In terms of ultimate empowering the only nerf recipients seem MagDKs, MagSorcs and some MagWardens. Not really the classes I'd be looking to nerf the burst damage of.

Irylia

@Ragnaroek93
Not asking for nerfs. Just something to actually help sorc get back in place.

And
1. Most sorcs shouldn’t be running 3 wards outside of a duel, nor do you need to. Harness is 7-9k size for 4k mag and can be stripped by Stam without providing return.
2. All Stam can use ults as a part of their kill combo but theirs is cheaper and on the flip side also don’t need an ult to push a kill because they have plenty of other dmg sources that are instant.
3. Shuffle can’t even be an excuse for sorc since only amber dark deal builds copying Faso + eu sorc were able to run it and that was patches ago. It has since been reworked and light armor can’t use it.
4. Pirate skel no longer procs on wards and most sorcs are unable to slot it due to master inferno + lich + 5x leaves 1x monster. And it’s not impossible to work around anyways.

Minalan

Irylia wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93
Not asking for nerfs. Just something to actually help sorc get back in place.

And
1. Most sorcs shouldn’t be running 3 wards outside of a duel, nor do you need to. Harness is 7-9k size for 4k mag and can be stripped by Stam without providing return.
2. All Stam can use ults as a part of their kill combo but theirs is cheaper and on the flip side also don’t need an ult to push a kill because they have plenty of other dmg sources that are instant.
3. Shuffle can’t even be an excuse for sorc since only amber dark deal builds copying Faso + eu sorc were able to run it and that was patches ago. It has since been reworked and light armor can’t use it.
4. Pirate skel no longer procs on wards and most sorcs are unable to slot it due to master inferno + lich + 5x leaves 1x monster. And it’s not impossible to work around anyways.

Wow, look at all of the *mostly* targeted Sorc nerfs that nobody ever talks about!

Minno

Minalan wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93
Not asking for nerfs. Just something to actually help sorc get back in place.

And
1. Most sorcs shouldn’t be running 3 wards outside of a duel, nor do you need to. Harness is 7-9k size for 4k mag and can be stripped by Stam without providing return.
2. All Stam can use ults as a part of their kill combo but theirs is cheaper and on the flip side also don’t need an ult to push a kill because they have plenty of other dmg sources that are instant.
3. Shuffle can’t even be an excuse for sorc since only amber dark deal builds copying Faso + eu sorc were able to run it and that was patches ago. It has since been reworked and light armor can’t use it.
4. Pirate skel no longer procs on wards and most sorcs are unable to slot it due to master inferno + lich + 5x leaves 1x monster. And it’s not impossible to work around anyways.

Wow, look at all of the *mostly* targeted Sorc nerfs that nobody ever talks about!

forgot the spell symetry nerf to shields!

Apherius

Currently you put your Liquid lightning under the Boss, and if the boss move you need to recast it .

Liquid flood would be interresting if the dot could follow the boss ( change the name and make it follow the boss from above ).

Septimus_Magna

I was looking over the Summerset sorc changes and then it hit me, the Overload sorc just got buffed massively.

Bound Armaments: increase dmg on light attacks by 11% (only need this on the overload bar)

Imbue Weapons: Empower the next two light attacks by 40% (only need this on the overload bar)

Run 5pc Elegant which buffs light/heavy attack dmg by 20%

Slap on a Bloodthirsty jewerly piece, prime target with curse+mages fury, hit two overload light attacks to drop the target below 20% and mages fury takes care of the rest.

Maulkin

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I was looking over the Summerset sorc changes and then it hit me, the Overload sorc just got buffed massively.

Bound Armaments: increase dmg on light attacks by 11% (only need this on the overload bar)

Imbue Weapons: Empower the next two light attacks by 40% (only need this on the overload bar)

Run 5pc Elegant which buffs light/heavy attack dmg by 20%

Slap on a Bloodthirsty jewerly piece, prime target with curse+mages fury, hit two overload light attacks to drop the target below 20% and mages fury takes care of the rest.

Yeah this has already been discussed. It’s one of the reasons people say the Empower changes are stupid. You can’t empower Meteor or Ferocious Leap any more, but you can Empower Overlod by 40% with Magleight or Imbue Weapons. GG.

I’d like to hear a Dev discuss the rationale behind the Empower changes cause I want to compare and contrast what they think they’ll be achieving vs what they will be actually achieving.

Cause I can already tell that 40% empowered Overloads will be broken and it’s gonna get the skill nerfed for all the wrong reasons again.

Joy_Division

Maulkin wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I was looking over the Summerset sorc changes and then it hit me, the Overload sorc just got buffed massively.

Bound Armaments: increase dmg on light attacks by 11% (only need this on the overload bar)

Imbue Weapons: Empower the next two light attacks by 40% (only need this on the overload bar)

Run 5pc Elegant which buffs light/heavy attack dmg by 20%

Slap on a Bloodthirsty jewerly piece, prime target with curse+mages fury, hit two overload light attacks to drop the target below 20% and mages fury takes care of the rest.

Yeah this has already been discussed. It’s one of the reasons people say the Empower changes are stupid. You can’t empower Meteor or Ferocious Leap any more, but you can Empower Overlod by 40% with Magleight or Imbue Weapons. GG.

I’d like to hear a Dev discuss the rationale behind the Empower changes cause I want to compare and contrast what they think they’ll be achieving vs what they will be actually achieving.

Cause I can already tell that 40% empowered Overloads will be broken and it’s gonna get the skill nerfed for all the wrong reasons again.

I have a feeling ZoS is going to nix that early in the PTS process.

Minalan

Joy_Division wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

I was looking over the Summerset sorc changes and then it hit me, the Overload sorc just got buffed massively.

Bound Armaments: increase dmg on light attacks by 11% (only need this on the overload bar)

Imbue Weapons: Empower the next two light attacks by 40% (only need this on the overload bar)

Run 5pc Elegant which buffs light/heavy attack dmg by 20%

Slap on a Bloodthirsty jewerly piece, prime target with curse+mages fury, hit two overload light attacks to drop the target below 20% and mages fury takes care of the rest.

Yeah this has already been discussed. It’s one of the reasons people say the Empower changes are stupid. You can’t empower Meteor or Ferocious Leap any more, but you can Empower Overlod by 40% with Magleight or Imbue Weapons. GG.

I’d like to hear a Dev discuss the rationale behind the Empower changes cause I want to compare and contrast what they think they’ll be achieving vs what they will be actually achieving.

Cause I can already tell that 40% empowered Overloads will be broken and it’s gonna get the skill nerfed for all the wrong reasons again.

I have a feeling ZoS is going to nix that early in the PTS process.

They could fix it by switching overload heavy and overload light damage. The light attacks wouldn’t hurt much more than those from a fire staff.

The heavy attack is short range, AOE, and it should HURT! Unlimited power Palpatine style!

It’d be the smart thing to do, but I doubt we’ll see it this late in the process.

Kova

Minalan wrote: »

They could fix it by switching overload heavy and overload light damage. The light attacks wouldn’t hurt much more than those from a fire staff.

The heavy attack is short range, AOE, and it should HURT! Unlimited power Palpatine style!

It’d be the smart thing to do, but I doubt we’ll see it this late in the process.

If they even want to change it. One of the big hurdles with playing magicka sorc for new players is having to keep up shields proactively and plan around an underwhelming 4 second burst, with the exception of pet sorc. Combine that with the current capabilities of the class and you get our present situation.

But...Buff a very simple, spammable attack and suddenly less involved players start using it because it becomes the shortest time to kill and the easiest way to kill and slowly sorcs show up more in death recaps, casual players are satisfied, then the historical #nerfsorc movement is justified and the class doesn't need to worked with for a looooonngg time.

/removetinfoilhat

Maulkin wrote: »

I’d like to hear a Dev discuss the rationale behind the Empower changes cause I want to compare and contrast what they think they’ll be achieving vs what they will be actually achieving.

I dream of that kind of universe. A place where Devs explain choices in detail instead of generalized statements that, if you listen/read carefully enough, aren't actually stating anything at all.

Snark aside, I'm really excited to test the changes in the coming weeks. I was caught off guard by most of them because I didn't really understand or hear about the issues that may have led to them. I might be burying the lead, but for now it's a headscratcher.

Datthaw

All these changes sounds pretty nice. I'm rolling my 1st magsorc through kyne atm, only lvl 17, so I won't know the effect of the change one way oor the other

Minalan

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

Lord-Otto

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

Priyasekarssk

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

I will meditate comfortably with cloak NB.

Lord-Otto

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

I will meditate comfortably with cloak NB.

Probably gonna get knocked out of Cloak, you are stationary, after all. Risky.

Minalan

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

I will meditate comfortably with cloak NB.

If meditate doesn’t remove you from hiding, the skill is going to be ridiculous.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

Why, my friend, would you ever do a magsorc build without purple food? It’s like 1K less Magicka and health for 4.2K stamina. You should be about to hit 14K, which drastically increases survivability.

Joy_Division

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

I will meditate comfortably with cloak NB.

I think Gilliam said it takes you out of cloak.

PhoenixGrey

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m not happy with the changes at all. We asked for damage, and didn’t get it. Meanwhile every other class has had their heals buffed.

We have two class attacks. Two. Curse and frags. Wrath is an execute. Rune cage is a CC. Frags needs the full 20% back on a proc because we can’t empower it. Meteor is going to suck without the self empower.

* Rune cage is nice, but I use the defensive rune morph. It lasts for two minutes, and it’s an instant “F*** you” to bow gankers. It’s necessary given the number of these idiots out there, it FEELS like about half of the PVP population sometimes.

Last night Defensive rune caught a gank spec stam nightblade who jumped me, so I turned a soul assaulted him to death. I got angry tells for ten straight minutes. It was pure joy.

* I’ll probably be slotting ‘Acceleration’ instead of boundless storm for the 12 second burst window with minor force. I don’t think anyone here yet realizes how good that is.

* Bound Aegis change is nice, but it won’t take the place of mage light on my bar. There are just too many damn nightblades out there. You really need it for the reveal, mage light plus streak, light up in the direction where you last saw the nightblade and usually you can catch them.

I’m currently built to ‘L2P’ survive in elder stamblades online, given the cool buffs they just received I don’t see my setup changing. I don’t see the stamblade meta changing.

What I DONT want to do, but might need to just to keep up with the crappy meta Eric just built: slot rune cage, curse, and degeneration on the overload bar. Curse, degeneration cancel rune cage cancel overload light attack. Boom: 3K Rune Cage, 6K Curse, 18K overload. Maybe a quick wrath if they’re still alive by some miracle. It’s crap and everyone out there is going to do it to you too.

Holy rant, batman.

Every change we've seen so far, is a buff. It's the first update for I don't know how long...since before Morrowing for sure, that Sorcs are getting buffs without getting nerfs too. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope they don't nerf it in PTS

Sorc burst damage is currently very decent. Light attacks scaling from Max Magicka as well, is a huge buff to Sorc pressure. 5-5-2 with staves is amazing, you can slot Slimecraw and buff your damage considerably if you want. Rune Cage getting damage on break is also increasing the burst in the curse-meteor-cage-frag combo.

This is good for Sorcs.

No it isn’t. The changes do nothing for sorcs current issues in Cyro outside of mine cost reduction.

You want to talk about burst go look at nb. They roll/cloak/shuffle the majority of your attacks while your burst is on a timer. Miss one piece of that combo and you need to reset. Meanwhile these nb’s are incapping for half my hp into surprise attack/bow and instant executes killing through ward stacks.

Hundings spriggan bs build and able to out sustain and reliably use cloak and roll
(Zendran)

*** bonkers how much more damage stamina (templar, warden, dk) are able to put out while mitigating a sorcs measly 3 sec burst set up.

Sorc is good with killing bad players but my god it’s so annoying how hard you bash your head into stamina players with very little result.
Shimmering shield
Frost armor (minor protection)
Wings
Sb reflect
Purify
Cloak
Shuffle
Roll dodge

And these Stam toons in medium armor are laughing while they roll through 8k tooltip mines.
Having frag stun was extremely important for sorcs rotation and enabling damage to get through. Flame reach and prison actually lower your pressure.

Completely agree here. I see changes here and not buffs. There are no direct major buffs to mag sorc s. The only minor buff I see is to rune cage which does a little damage now. But it's not like it had a 15k tooltip in the first place

If bound aegis could be back barred to get a 8% mag buff on activation for a while, that would be a buff to the burst damage which was exactly what the class was once known for.

Wouldn't be surprised if its another stam dominated patch.

Minalan

Minno wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93
Not asking for nerfs. Just something to actually help sorc get back in place.

And
1. Most sorcs shouldn’t be running 3 wards outside of a duel, nor do you need to. Harness is 7-9k size for 4k mag and can be stripped by Stam without providing return.
2. All Stam can use ults as a part of their kill combo but theirs is cheaper and on the flip side also don’t need an ult to push a kill because they have plenty of other dmg sources that are instant.
3. Shuffle can’t even be an excuse for sorc since only amber dark deal builds copying Faso + eu sorc were able to run it and that was patches ago. It has since been reworked and light armor can’t use it.
4. Pirate skel no longer procs on wards and most sorcs are unable to slot it due to master inferno + lich + 5x leaves 1x monster. And it’s not impossible to work around anyways.

Wow, look at all of the *mostly* targeted Sorc nerfs that nobody ever talks about!

forgot the spell symetry nerf to shields!

There was that, AND another pirate skeleton nerf because @Irylia figured out that you could use equilibrium to proc the set bonus with damage shields up. The spell health cost counted as health damage.

I think they nerfed that one in like.. 1 day flat. It had to be some kind of ‘nerf sorc!’ f***@%# world record.

PS: fix meteor. Buff the damage to replace the missing empower, or this next patch is going to be all Dawnbreaker, ALL of the time. There’s no reason to use any other Magicka ultimate, because nothing we will have access to HITS that hard!

PPS: I also *really* don’t want this patch to be one big sorcerer empowered overload free for all. And it will be if you empower the next two overload light attacks by 40%. Get some common sense ZOS, and act like you have a fourth grade math education! That’s going to hit upwards of 20K per shot after battle spirit with just a couple of the new buffs active. Minor force, empower, bound arms...

PhoenixGrey

Maulkin wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m not happy with the changes at all. We asked for damage, and didn’t get it. Meanwhile every other class has had their heals buffed.

We have two class attacks. Two. Curse and frags. Wrath is an execute. Rune cage is a CC. Frags needs the full 20% back on a proc because we can’t empower it. Meteor is going to suck without the self empower.

* Rune cage is nice, but I use the defensive rune morph. It lasts for two minutes, and it’s an instant “F*** you” to bow gankers. It’s necessary given the number of these idiots out there, it FEELS like about half of the PVP population sometimes.

Last night Defensive rune caught a gank spec stam nightblade who jumped me, so I turned a soul assaulted him to death. I got angry tells for ten straight minutes. It was pure joy.

* I’ll probably be slotting ‘Acceleration’ instead of boundless storm for the 12 second burst window with minor force. I don’t think anyone here yet realizes how good that is.

* Bound Aegis change is nice, but it won’t take the place of mage light on my bar. There are just too many damn nightblades out there. You really need it for the reveal, mage light plus streak, light up in the direction where you last saw the nightblade and usually you can catch them.

I’m currently built to ‘L2P’ survive in elder stamblades online, given the cool buffs they just received I don’t see my setup changing. I don’t see the stamblade meta changing.

What I DONT want to do, but might need to just to keep up with the crappy meta Eric just built: slot rune cage, curse, and degeneration on the overload bar. Curse, degeneration cancel rune cage cancel overload light attack. Boom: 3K Rune Cage, 6K Curse, 18K overload. Maybe a quick wrath if they’re still alive by some miracle. It’s crap and everyone out there is going to do it to you too.

Holy rant, batman.

Every change we've seen so far, is a buff. It's the first update for I don't know how long...since before Morrowing for sure, that Sorcs are getting buffs without getting nerfs too. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope they don't nerf it in PTS

Sorc burst damage is currently very decent. Light attacks scaling from Max Magicka as well, is a huge buff to Sorc pressure. 5-5-2 with staves is amazing, you can slot Slimecraw and buff your damage considerably if you want. Rune Cage getting damage on break is also increasing the burst in the curse-meteor-cage-frag combo.

This is good for Sorcs.

No it isn’t. The changes do nothing for sorcs current issues in Cyro outside of mine cost reduction.

You want to talk about burst go look at nb. They roll/cloak/shuffle the majority of your attacks while your burst is on a timer. Miss one piece of that combo and you need to reset. Meanwhile these nb’s are incapping for half my hp into surprise attack/bow and instant executes killing through ward stacks.

Hundings spriggan bs build and able to out sustain and reliably use cloak and roll
(Zendran)

*** bonkers how much more damage stamina (templar, warden, dk) are able to put out while mitigating a sorcs measly 3 sec burst set up.

Sorc is good with killing bad players but my god it’s so annoying how hard you bash your head into stamina players with very little result.
Shimmering shield
Frost armor (minor protection)
Wings
Sb reflect
Purify
Cloak
Shuffle
Roll dodge

And these Stam toons in medium armor are laughing while they roll through 8k tooltip mines.
Having frag stun was extremely important for sorcs rotation and enabling damage to get through. Flame reach and prison actually lower your pressure.

I find your statements contradictory and exaggerated.

Exaggerated, because medium armour builds find Mines very problematic to fight against. I know, I have 2 PvP stam chars (StamSorc and StamBlade) in medium. No one rolls though mines like they're not there. It more often than not results in your death.

Contradictory, because first you list all the ways that stam toons "break" the Sorc combo mainly by avoiding/reflecting/absorbing/cloaking projectiles. Then you proceed to tell me that Crystal Frag stun (which suffers from all the problems you listed) is extremely important, while an undodgeable/unblockable CC and damage skill somehow makes things worse.

It obviously doesn't. Curse->Meteor->Cage (new version) will basically kill or drop into execute range the vast majority of medium builds out there. As for how you worked out that Flame Reach lowers pressure, that I don't know.

Anyhow, I just fail to see how these changes make Sorcs less capable at dishing burst and dealing with a wider variety of builds than before. I see those as changes in the right direction with the exception perhaps of the Empower changes.

The major major point you are missing in the nerf to frags is bar space. It affects burst damage, survivability and mobility badly !

In a dual wield sorc you cannot slot bound aegis or entropy. In a destro sorc u can't slot mage light. Smaller shields, smaller burst. Reduces your options for pots. Cannot front bar shields.
Some sorc s have even dropped streak!

Not sure how you fail to see this point.

Beardimus

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m not happy with the changes at all. We asked for damage, and didn’t get it. Meanwhile every other class has had their heals buffed.

We have two class attacks. Two. Curse and frags. Wrath is an execute. Rune cage is a CC. Frags needs the full 20% back on a proc because we can’t empower it. Meteor is going to suck without the self empower.

* Rune cage is nice, but I use the defensive rune morph. It lasts for two minutes, and it’s an instant “F*** you” to bow gankers. It’s necessary given the number of these idiots out there, it FEELS like about half of the PVP population sometimes.

Last night Defensive rune caught a gank spec stam nightblade who jumped me, so I turned a soul assaulted him to death. I got angry tells for ten straight minutes. It was pure joy.

* I’ll probably be slotting ‘Acceleration’ instead of boundless storm for the 12 second burst window with minor force. I don’t think anyone here yet realizes how good that is.

* Bound Aegis change is nice, but it won’t take the place of mage light on my bar. There are just too many damn nightblades out there. You really need it for the reveal, mage light plus streak, light up in the direction where you last saw the nightblade and usually you can catch them.

I’m currently built to ‘L2P’ survive in elder stamblades online, given the cool buffs they just received I don’t see my setup changing. I don’t see the stamblade meta changing.

What I DONT want to do, but might need to just to keep up with the crappy meta Eric just built: slot rune cage, curse, and degeneration on the overload bar. Curse, degeneration cancel rune cage cancel overload light attack. Boom: 3K Rune Cage, 6K Curse, 18K overload. Maybe a quick wrath if they’re still alive by some miracle. It’s crap and everyone out there is going to do it to you too.

Holy rant, batman.

Every change we've seen so far, is a buff. It's the first update for I don't know how long...since before Morrowing for sure, that Sorcs are getting buffs without getting nerfs too. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I just hope they don't nerf it in PTS

Sorc burst damage is currently very decent. Light attacks scaling from Max Magicka as well, is a huge buff to Sorc pressure. 5-5-2 with staves is amazing, you can slot Slimecraw and buff your damage considerably if you want. Rune Cage getting damage on break is also increasing the burst in the curse-meteor-cage-frag combo.

This is good for Sorcs.

No it isn’t. The changes do nothing for sorcs current issues in Cyro outside of mine cost reduction.

You want to talk about burst go look at nb. They roll/cloak/shuffle the majority of your attacks while your burst is on a timer. Miss one piece of that combo and you need to reset. Meanwhile these nb’s are incapping for half my hp into surprise attack/bow and instant executes killing through ward stacks.

Hundings spriggan bs build and able to out sustain and reliably use cloak and roll
(Zendran)

*** bonkers how much more damage stamina (templar, warden, dk) are able to put out while mitigating a sorcs measly 3 sec burst set up.

Sorc is good with killing bad players but my god it’s so annoying how hard you bash your head into stamina players with very little result.
Shimmering shield
Frost armor (minor protection)
Wings
Sb reflect
Purify
Cloak
Shuffle
Roll dodge

And these Stam toons in medium armor are laughing while they roll through 8k tooltip mines.
Having frag stun was extremely important for sorcs rotation and enabling damage to get through. Flame reach and prison actually lower your pressure.

I find your statements contradictory and exaggerated.

Exaggerated, because medium armour builds find Mines very problematic to fight against. I know, I have 2 PvP stam chars (StamSorc and StamBlade) in medium. No one rolls though mines like they're not there. It more often than not results in your death.

Contradictory, because first you list all the ways that stam toons "break" the Sorc combo mainly by avoiding/reflecting/absorbing/cloaking projectiles. Then you proceed to tell me that Crystal Frag stun (which suffers from all the problems you listed) is extremely important, while an undodgeable/unblockable CC and damage skill somehow makes things worse.

It obviously doesn't. Curse->Meteor->Cage (new version) will basically kill or drop into execute range the vast majority of medium builds out there. As for how you worked out that Flame Reach lowers pressure, that I don't know.

Anyhow, I just fail to see how these changes make Sorcs less capable at dishing burst and dealing with a wider variety of builds than before. I see those as changes in the right direction with the exception perhaps of the Empower changes.

The major major point you are missing in the nerf to frags is bar space. It affects burst damage, survivability and mobility badly !

In a dual wield sorc you cannot slot bound aegis or entropy. In a destro sorc u can't slot mage light. Smaller shields, smaller burst. Reduces your options for pots. Cannot front bar shields.
Some sorc s have even dropped streak!

Not sure how you fail to see this point.

Spot on. Well explained.

It's play how you want unless ur a DW MagSorc then you can get ****Ed

He'll I have had a Overload build from launch, and i don't want it buffed so everyone is running it, it's a niche build.and i love that.

Please don't screw us DW Zos, at least buff its passive damage

Lord-Otto

@Minalan

Sustain, really. 1800 mag recovery is too low already, although with Lich this might be acceptable, if barely.

Tri-stat would drop me to 1400, which is not enough. If I were to compensate with poison or regen glyphs, I would decrease my damage, which sorcs can't afford right now. Haven't looked up numbers for Ghastly Eye Bowl and Hakeijo shenanigans, but last I checked for my current setup, it was too little magicka for an irrelevant stam pool increase.

I'm leaning to Absorp Stamina enchant on front being the smallest sacrifice, losing only the Concussion chance from shock enchant. Concussion is very nice, but it's only a CHANCE, so I consider this the least mandatory part in the build.

Subversus

Minalan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93
Not asking for nerfs. Just something to actually help sorc get back in place.

And
1. Most sorcs shouldn’t be running 3 wards outside of a duel, nor do you need to. Harness is 7-9k size for 4k mag and can be stripped by Stam without providing return.
2. All Stam can use ults as a part of their kill combo but theirs is cheaper and on the flip side also don’t need an ult to push a kill because they have plenty of other dmg sources that are instant.
3. Shuffle can’t even be an excuse for sorc since only amber dark deal builds copying Faso + eu sorc were able to run it and that was patches ago. It has since been reworked and light armor can’t use it.
4. Pirate skel no longer procs on wards and most sorcs are unable to slot it due to master inferno + lich + 5x leaves 1x monster. And it’s not impossible to work around anyways.

Wow, look at all of the *mostly* targeted Sorc nerfs that nobody ever talks about!

forgot the spell symetry nerf to shields!

There was that, AND another pirate skeleton nerf because @Irylia figured out that you could use equilibrium to proc the set bonus with damage shields up. The spell health cost counted as health damage.

I think they nerfed that one in like.. 1 day flat. It had to be some kind of ‘nerf sorc!’ f***@%# world record.

PS: fix meteor. Buff the damage to replace the missing empower, or this next patch is going to be all Dawnbreaker, ALL of the time. There’s no reason to use any other Magicka ultimate, because nothing we will have access to HITS that hard!

PPS: I also *really* don’t want this patch to be one big sorcerer empowered overload free for all. And it will be if you empower the next two overload light attacks by 40%. Get some common sense ZOS, and act like you have a fourth grade math education! That’s going to hit upwards of 20K per shot after battle spirit with just a couple of the new buffs active. Minor force, empower, bound arms...

I’m pretty sure the removal of meteor empower does jack *** in regular scenarios, where you’d already use a stun right after meteor and therefore consuming the empower. Meteor itself would never actually get empowered unless you castes the skill and then started jumping around for 2 seconds waiting for it to land.

Skaffa even made a video of this where he showed meteor damage when it landed alone and then meteor damage after he did a whip.

Assuming you’re playing against good players, they will start blocking as soon as meteor comes making the following empowered attack useless anyway.

If we are talking about meteor > rune cage and nothing else, then yes, the empower change is a nerf as rune cage didn’t do damage (unless enemy didn’t break, which comes way after meteor lands). But now that rune cage does damage you can look at it this way: the empowered damage from meteor got shifted over to rune cage, which is a much better deal imo.

All in all, the empower loss on meteor is arguably irrelevant.