Sorcerer Summerset Changes Discussion

Maulkin

Vapirko wrote: »

@Maulkin where does it talk about the new persistence passive?

In my OP.

Maulkin wrote: »

B-Passives
1) Persistence passive now reduces the cost of your next cast ability by 15% after you successfully block an attack.

It's not much, admittedly. But reducing the cost of heals and stuff when you go into defensive, block-holding mode can be nice.

I play DW and S&B and when I block an attack this passive will refund me 400-500 stamina from my next cast. Which is more than the cost of block. Occasional blocking will become a thing. You don't want to completely shut down your stam regen ofc.

It's massive for PvE Sorc Tanks of course. If it has no cooldown it's gonna be almost as good as Battle Roar and make Sorc Tanks viable for end game content.

Irylia

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I know that ZoS wants all classes to play all roles but it is very clear that each class is steered in a specific section. DK > Tanks, Templars > Healers, Nightblade > Stealth, Sorc > Mobility.

Speaking strictly for PvP, I'd really like to see Streak cleanse snares and grant immunity for like 2 seconds. That would further the classes mobility mindset. As a StamSorc I'd be happy with that move despite a lack of class spammable.

Tbh with the delay on streak something like this would be a much appreciated change.
Otherwise our class defining ability (streak mobility) is essentially crippled by the slows/roots/gap closers and Stam classes running alongside us with speed pots.

Subversus

Kilandros wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

I wonder how stam sorc do as they seem not to be well represented on the forum

They seem to be getting good buffs as far as I'm concerned. @Vapirko came in here to vent that no one talks about them, but as soon as I offered my opinion and asked him to expand on his... he do me a disappear.

Sorry if I don’t see every little notification on the forum. So what buff exactly are we getting? Bound armaments is being made close to useless for dds it seems. Some 2 second block bs? I’m not really a PvEr so I’m coming from a PvP perspective for the most part and this change does not seem good. I’ve suggested that a good change to bound armaments if it’s not going to be a toggle thereby only buffing regen on one bar due to the passives, that it function soemthing like the warden netch and return stam while sprinting since stam sorcs really only have mobility going for them. And the obvious other thing we lack is a class spammable of any kind which stam Templars, wardens and NBs all have. There have been some threads noting that it wouldn’t take much to bring stam sorcs back up to speed and honestly I don’t even think we need much help in the damage department, if we need any at all, and keeping bound armaments useful to dds and opening up that one extra skill slot goes a long way. But if bound armaments goes down the tube, we’re back where we started or worse off than before.

How is Bound Armaments becoming useless to DDs? Enlighten me.

It’s just being transformed into a skill that’s supppsed to double as a tank skill and a dd skill instead of being reimagined into something that will truly benefit Stam Sorc dds. I assume it’s part of ZOS trying to give every class the ability to do everything, something I don’t agree with. It might be fine in PvE where things are more controlled but for PvP the 2 second block buff is just too short a time and we don’t really need defensive help we need utility help. It ultimately remains to be seen when the full patch notes come out, but people have been putting forth good suggestions for stam sorcs for a while and this isn’t one of them.

No it's not. Bound Armaments is the damage morph. Bound Aegis is the tank morph.

Again, how is Bound Armaments becoming useless to DDs?

It’s being changed to feature a short Increase in block mitigation no?

No, that's Bound Aegis the defensive morph.

My mistake, someone up above switched the name and the description and I was going off that. However I still wouldn’t call it a buff as you propose, not yet anyway. Though it’s a step in the right direction and opens up possibility of making Stam Sorc a very competitive class.

According to the testers people were hitting 42k light attack crits during parses. Increased LA damage sounds like it's going to be a pretty massive buff to Bound Armaments. People just can't see beyond their own hysteria.

Exaclty, I can only imagine how this all synergizes with the empower buff.

Svidrir

And no buff for groups like warden's lotus ........

Minno

Don't forget, staff changes means you can slot 1 fire will power staff and get the max mag bonus!

Chilly-McFreeze

42k light attack crits? I must be dreaming.

Kilandros

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

42k light attack crits? I must be dreaming.

Well people disliked the Heavy Attack meta so naturally ZOS would give us a Light Attack meta to make things more interesting.

IAVITNI

Irylia wrote: »

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I know that ZoS wants all classes to play all roles but it is very clear that each class is steered in a specific section. DK > Tanks, Templars > Healers, Nightblade > Stealth, Sorc > Mobility.

Speaking strictly for PvP, I'd really like to see Streak cleanse snares and grant immunity for like 2 seconds. That would further the classes mobility mindset. As a StamSorc I'd be happy with that move despite a lack of class spammable.

Tbh with the delay on streak something like this would be a much appreciated change.
Otherwise our class defining ability (streak mobility) is essentially crippled by the slows/roots/gap closers and Stam classes running alongside us with speed pots.

It be great, no doubt. But should really wait for ZoS to take a pass at snares. I'd rather sorcs be mediocre in the snare meta than be good in the snare meta and become OP when snares are balanced/nerfed.

We all know what happens when Sorcs are OP. Frag is going to become a melee skill if sorcs ever over perform again.

Subversus

IAVITNI wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I know that ZoS wants all classes to play all roles but it is very clear that each class is steered in a specific section. DK > Tanks, Templars > Healers, Nightblade > Stealth, Sorc > Mobility.

Speaking strictly for PvP, I'd really like to see Streak cleanse snares and grant immunity for like 2 seconds. That would further the classes mobility mindset. As a StamSorc I'd be happy with that move despite a lack of class spammable.

Tbh with the delay on streak something like this would be a much appreciated change.
Otherwise our class defining ability (streak mobility) is essentially crippled by the slows/roots/gap closers and Stam classes running alongside us with speed pots.

It be great, no doubt. But should really wait for ZoS to take a pass at snares. I'd rather sorcs be mediocre in the snare meta than be good in the snare meta and become OP when snares are balanced/nerfed.

We all know what happens when Sorcs are OP. Frag is going to become a melee skill if sorcs ever over perform again.

Inb4 they bring back 6s curse

Minalan

Irylia wrote: »

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I know that ZoS wants all classes to play all roles but it is very clear that each class is steered in a specific section. DK > Tanks, Templars > Healers, Nightblade > Stealth, Sorc > Mobility.

Speaking strictly for PvP, I'd really like to see Streak cleanse snares and grant immunity for like 2 seconds. That would further the classes mobility mindset. As a StamSorc I'd be happy with that move despite a lack of class spammable.

Tbh with the delay on streak something like this would be a much appreciated change.
Otherwise our class defining ability (streak mobility) is essentially crippled by the slows/roots/gap closers and Stam classes running alongside us with speed pots.

Think speed pots are bad? Wait till you see what stamina can do with speed enchanted jewelry. Lulz!

GrigorijMalahevich

Minalan wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

I will meditate comfortably with cloak NB.

If meditate doesn’t remove you from hiding, the skill is going to be ridiculous.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

Why, my friend, would you ever do a magsorc build without purple food? It’s like 1K less Magicka and health for 4.2K stamina. You should be about to hit 14K, which drastically increases survivability.

Totally agree. My necro/lich/shadow has around 17k stam... Now with ability to add master staff, I can easily drop recovery for SD and have necro on both bars. Don’t see a point to use anything else.

P.S. if someone wants to play with 10k stam, I would go bloodthorn instead of lich...

Minalan

Subversus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93
Not asking for nerfs. Just something to actually help sorc get back in place.

And
1. Most sorcs shouldn’t be running 3 wards outside of a duel, nor do you need to. Harness is 7-9k size for 4k mag and can be stripped by Stam without providing return.
2. All Stam can use ults as a part of their kill combo but theirs is cheaper and on the flip side also don’t need an ult to push a kill because they have plenty of other dmg sources that are instant.
3. Shuffle can’t even be an excuse for sorc since only amber dark deal builds copying Faso + eu sorc were able to run it and that was patches ago. It has since been reworked and light armor can’t use it.
4. Pirate skel no longer procs on wards and most sorcs are unable to slot it due to master inferno + lich + 5x leaves 1x monster. And it’s not impossible to work around anyways.

Wow, look at all of the *mostly* targeted Sorc nerfs that nobody ever talks about!

forgot the spell symetry nerf to shields!

There was that, AND another pirate skeleton nerf because @Irylia figured out that you could use equilibrium to proc the set bonus with damage shields up. The spell health cost counted as health damage.

I think they nerfed that one in like.. 1 day flat. It had to be some kind of ‘nerf sorc!’ f***@%# world record.

PS: fix meteor. Buff the damage to replace the missing empower, or this next patch is going to be all Dawnbreaker, ALL of the time. There’s no reason to use any other Magicka ultimate, because nothing we will have access to HITS that hard!

PPS: I also *really* don’t want this patch to be one big sorcerer empowered overload free for all. And it will be if you empower the next two overload light attacks by 40%. Get some common sense ZOS, and act like you have a fourth grade math education! That’s going to hit upwards of 20K per shot after battle spirit with just a couple of the new buffs active. Minor force, empower, bound arms...

I’m pretty sure the removal of meteor empower does jack *** in regular scenarios, where you’d already use a stun right after meteor and therefore consuming the empower. Meteor itself would never actually get empowered unless you castes the skill and then started jumping around for 2 seconds waiting for it to land.

Skaffa even made a video of this where he showed meteor damage when it landed alone and then meteor damage after he did a whip.

Assuming you’re playing against good players, they will start blocking as soon as meteor comes making the following empowered attack useless anyway.

If we are talking about meteor > rune cage and nothing else, then yes, the empower change is a nerf as rune cage didn’t do damage (unless enemy didn’t break, which comes way after meteor lands). But now that rune cage does damage you can look at it this way: the empowered damage from meteor got shifted over to rune cage, which is a much better deal imo.

All in all, the empower loss on meteor is arguably irrelevant.

Yeah we’re talking about caged people
Stunned players with no stamina, happens more than you think, especially 10-12K stamina magsorcs and magdens.
if they’re stunned and no stam I don’t see any reason not to follow up with other attacks instead of waiting for the meteor to fall

Nightblades near death that cloak spam out of meteor
fair point, although it doesn’t matter if the meteor is empowered or not if they’re near death...

Nailing those streaking sorcs that end up stuck in midair for that crucial 1-2 seconds because they streaked down an incline or staircase.
Sure, never had that happen to me but it’s a good theoretical example

Hitting someone in a tight ball group that can’t see the circle and fails to block it (the first target gets the empowered fun, the healer if you’re good)
again, I don’t see why you’d drop a meteor in this situation and then just stop attacking at all in order to preserve 20% extra damage on it

Hitting a dodge roll spammer you can’t hit with anything else, then following up with a combo when CC’ed
fair point, I agree with this one
Nailing someone busy on a siege weapon.
again, why would you only cast a meteor and then stop attacking?
Killing some Templar mid channel because they think that their CC immunity will let them do whatever they want.
same thing again, why would you suddenly stop attacking? Just shieldstack through soul assault (assuming that’s what you meant by mid channel), and then go ham on him

Killing someone your good buddy mDK already has fossilized and rooted.
again, it’s a 2v1 and my magdk buddy is already smacking the living hell out of the other dude. Why would I simply cast my meteor then... uhh... start dancing around the enemy?


The list goes on. I’d say better than half of my meteors actually strike empowered. In a chaotic open world battle there are ALWAYS chances to use it. If you’re smart anyways.

This nerf sucks. I’m not okay with it.

I mean yeah sure, I agree. This is indisputably a nerf for DW, as well as against rollerblades as you pointed out in your list.

Any other scenario, I don’t see myself just casting a meteor and then starting a staring contest with the target as the meteor falls. This includes both my magblade and my sorc... it would be foolish to waste an ultimate like that.

The only scenario (besides the one where a rollerblade dodges everything but the meteor) where I wouldn’t spam other abilities during a meteor combo would be if I were to cast meteor on a random pleb on top of a castle that runs behind LOS as soon as I cast it on him. For that scenario it is indeed a huge nerf

Look I’m not arguing this isn’t a nerf - it is, for DW that can’t take advantage of the new light attack empower. For destro specs though, I really believe it remains to be seen whether 20% on an ability after meteor is better than 40% on the already newly buffed light attacks. I mean next patch they will hit haaard, even more so with empower.

Usually? They already have a curse on them before a meteor cast, and I spend the delay either warding up or charging a heavy attack to hit right after the bomb does.

The meteor and curse hit in the same hilarious second followed immediately by the HA. If the HA kills them, the destruction staff expert passive grants a lot of Magicka on top of what you usually get from an HA. If not, then just wrath. You’re ani-cancelling, so the wrath hits just when they get up.

I always try to weave HA into burst whenever I can for the sustain. I almost always play alone, so I’m always dealing with more than one enemy. Resources are life and death.

In this game there are a million little sustain tricks you can use to help with Post Morrowind *** sustain. Like, if the first shield is damaged a second or two after casting, but not broken, you only need to refresh one shield.

Lord-Otto

Valera Progib wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

I will meditate comfortably with cloak NB.

If meditate doesn’t remove you from hiding, the skill is going to be ridiculous.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

I’m sort of nervously optimistic about meditation.

My question is: Will be be able to use this skill, and actually wear a damage set and be viable now?

In a 1v1 in Cyrodiil near a rock, that is faintly possible. In a duel and against multiple opponents hammering on you? What do you think?
(^_-)

Btw, just looked at numbers for Necro/Lich/Shadow/Master.
4% more damage (negligible), 10% more shield strength (woo!) and 1800 magreg (slightly too low).
But of course, this setup dearly misses stam pool and sustain. 10k pool and 740 regen prohibit all dodge rolling, making you easy prey for mag DKs and maybe even mag NBs.

Why, my friend, would you ever do a magsorc build without purple food? It’s like 1K less Magicka and health for 4.2K stamina. You should be about to hit 14K, which drastically increases survivability.

Totally agree. My necro/lich/shadow has around 17k stam... Now with ability to add master staff, I can easily drop recovery for SD and have necro on both bars. Don’t see a point to use anything else.

P.S. if someone wants to play with 10k stam, I would go bloodthorn instead of lich...

How much spellpower and max mag do you have?
(0.0)?
Bloodthorn alone is probably not enough magicka sustain.

Joy_Division

Vapirko wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

I wonder how stam sorc do as they seem not to be well represented on the forum

They seem to be getting good buffs as far as I'm concerned. @Vapirko came in here to vent that no one talks about them, but as soon as I offered my opinion and asked him to expand on his... he do me a disappear.

Sorry if I don’t see every little notification on the forum. So what buff exactly are we getting? Bound armaments is being made close to useless for dds it seems. Some 2 second block bs? I’m not really a PvEr so I’m coming from a PvP perspective for the most part and this change does not seem good. I’ve suggested that a good change to bound armaments if it’s not going to be a toggle thereby only buffing regen on one bar due to the passives, that it function soemthing like the warden netch and return stam while sprinting since stam sorcs really only have mobility going for them. And the obvious other thing we lack is a class spammable of any kind which stam Templars, wardens and NBs all have. There have been some threads noting that it wouldn’t take much to bring stam sorcs back up to speed and honestly I don’t even think we need much help in the damage department, if we need any at all, and keeping bound armaments useful to dds and opening up that one extra skill slot goes a long way. But if bound armaments goes down the tube, we’re back where we started or worse off than before.

How is Bound Armaments becoming useless to DDs? Enlighten me.

It’s just being transformed into a skill that’s supppsed to double as a tank skill and a dd skill instead of being reimagined into something that will truly benefit Stam Sorc dds. I assume it’s part of ZOS trying to give every class the ability to do everything, something I don’t agree with. It might be fine in PvE where things are more controlled but for PvP the 2 second block buff is just too short a time and we don’t really need defensive help we need utility help. It ultimately remains to be seen when the full patch notes come out, but people have been putting forth good suggestions for stam sorcs for a while and this isn’t one of them.

No it's not. Bound Armaments is the damage morph. Bound Aegis is the tank morph.

Again, how is Bound Armaments becoming useless to DDs?

It’s being changed to feature a short Increase in block mitigation no?

No, that's Bound Aegis the defensive morph.

My mistake, someone up above switched the name and the description and I was going off that. However I still wouldn’t call it a buff as you propose, not yet anyway. Though it’s a step in the right direction and opens up possibility of making Stam Sorc a very competitive class.

Probably me. I always get those two mixed up.

rafaelcsmaia

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

MerlinPendragon

LEAVE SORCERERS AS IS.

Septimus_Magna

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

Maulkin

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

LEAVE SORCERERS AS IS.

ToRelax

.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

Ult cost reduction is multiplicative.

Minalan

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

LEAVE SORCERERS AS IS.

Said the stamina night-blade...

rafaelcsmaia

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

Well cost reduction is cost reduction, we need to see the official passive description to make sure, as it was described, it should work for ultis

IAVITNI

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

Vapirko

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

HoloYoitsu

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

IAVITNI

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

Vahrokh

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

... and one of the two things that could be truly called "sorc signature"

Subversus

Minalan wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

@Ragnaroek93
Not asking for nerfs. Just something to actually help sorc get back in place.

And
1. Most sorcs shouldn’t be running 3 wards outside of a duel, nor do you need to. Harness is 7-9k size for 4k mag and can be stripped by Stam without providing return.
2. All Stam can use ults as a part of their kill combo but theirs is cheaper and on the flip side also don’t need an ult to push a kill because they have plenty of other dmg sources that are instant.
3. Shuffle can’t even be an excuse for sorc since only amber dark deal builds copying Faso + eu sorc were able to run it and that was patches ago. It has since been reworked and light armor can’t use it.
4. Pirate skel no longer procs on wards and most sorcs are unable to slot it due to master inferno + lich + 5x leaves 1x monster. And it’s not impossible to work around anyways.

Wow, look at all of the *mostly* targeted Sorc nerfs that nobody ever talks about!

forgot the spell symetry nerf to shields!

There was that, AND another pirate skeleton nerf because @Irylia figured out that you could use equilibrium to proc the set bonus with damage shields up. The spell health cost counted as health damage.

I think they nerfed that one in like.. 1 day flat. It had to be some kind of ‘nerf sorc!’ f***@%# world record.

PS: fix meteor. Buff the damage to replace the missing empower, or this next patch is going to be all Dawnbreaker, ALL of the time. There’s no reason to use any other Magicka ultimate, because nothing we will have access to HITS that hard!

PPS: I also *really* don’t want this patch to be one big sorcerer empowered overload free for all. And it will be if you empower the next two overload light attacks by 40%. Get some common sense ZOS, and act like you have a fourth grade math education! That’s going to hit upwards of 20K per shot after battle spirit with just a couple of the new buffs active. Minor force, empower, bound arms...

I’m pretty sure the removal of meteor empower does jack *** in regular scenarios, where you’d already use a stun right after meteor and therefore consuming the empower. Meteor itself would never actually get empowered unless you castes the skill and then started jumping around for 2 seconds waiting for it to land.

Skaffa even made a video of this where he showed meteor damage when it landed alone and then meteor damage after he did a whip.

Assuming you’re playing against good players, they will start blocking as soon as meteor comes making the following empowered attack useless anyway.

If we are talking about meteor > rune cage and nothing else, then yes, the empower change is a nerf as rune cage didn’t do damage (unless enemy didn’t break, which comes way after meteor lands). But now that rune cage does damage you can look at it this way: the empowered damage from meteor got shifted over to rune cage, which is a much better deal imo.

All in all, the empower loss on meteor is arguably irrelevant.

Yeah we’re talking about caged people
Stunned players with no stamina, happens more than you think, especially 10-12K stamina magsorcs and magdens.
if they’re stunned and no stam I don’t see any reason not to follow up with other attacks instead of waiting for the meteor to fall

Nightblades near death that cloak spam out of meteor
fair point, although it doesn’t matter if the meteor is empowered or not if they’re near death...

Nailing those streaking sorcs that end up stuck in midair for that crucial 1-2 seconds because they streaked down an incline or staircase.
Sure, never had that happen to me but it’s a good theoretical example

Hitting someone in a tight ball group that can’t see the circle and fails to block it (the first target gets the empowered fun, the healer if you’re good)
again, I don’t see why you’d drop a meteor in this situation and then just stop attacking at all in order to preserve 20% extra damage on it

Hitting a dodge roll spammer you can’t hit with anything else, then following up with a combo when CC’ed
fair point, I agree with this one
Nailing someone busy on a siege weapon.
again, why would you only cast a meteor and then stop attacking?
Killing some Templar mid channel because they think that their CC immunity will let them do whatever they want.
same thing again, why would you suddenly stop attacking? Just shieldstack through soul assault (assuming that’s what you meant by mid channel), and then go ham on him

Killing someone your good buddy mDK already has fossilized and rooted.
again, it’s a 2v1 and my magdk buddy is already smacking the living hell out of the other dude. Why would I simply cast my meteor then... uhh... start dancing around the enemy?


The list goes on. I’d say better than half of my meteors actually strike empowered. In a chaotic open world battle there are ALWAYS chances to use it. If you’re smart anyways.

This nerf sucks. I’m not okay with it.

I mean yeah sure, I agree. This is indisputably a nerf for DW, as well as against rollerblades as you pointed out in your list.

Any other scenario, I don’t see myself just casting a meteor and then starting a staring contest with the target as the meteor falls. This includes both my magblade and my sorc... it would be foolish to waste an ultimate like that.

The only scenario (besides the one where a rollerblade dodges everything but the meteor) where I wouldn’t spam other abilities during a meteor combo would be if I were to cast meteor on a random pleb on top of a castle that runs behind LOS as soon as I cast it on him. For that scenario it is indeed a huge nerf

Look I’m not arguing this isn’t a nerf - it is, for DW that can’t take advantage of the new light attack empower. For destro specs though, I really believe it remains to be seen whether 20% on an ability after meteor is better than 40% on the already newly buffed light attacks. I mean next patch they will hit haaard, even more so with empower.

Usually? They already have a curse on them before a meteor cast, and I spend the delay either warding up or charging a heavy attack to hit right after the bomb does.

The meteor and curse hit in the same hilarious second followed immediately by the HA. If the HA kills them, the destruction staff expert passive grants a lot of Magicka on top of what you usually get from an HA. If not, then just wrath. You’re ani-cancelling, so the wrath hits just when they get up.

I always try to weave HA into burst whenever I can for the sustain. I almost always play alone, so I’m always dealing with more than one enemy. Resources are life and death.

In this game there are a million little sustain tricks you can use to help with Post Morrowind *** sustain. Like, if the first shield is damaged a second or two after casting, but not broken, you only need to refresh one shield.

Fair enough. To be completely fair, I never actually had sustain issues since morrowind cause all my setups went from one sustain to two sustain sets (amber/shackle lich/shackle alteration/shackle/domi) so I can’t weigh in here.

Yeah the shield trick is extremely handy when playing with harness, for what I believe are quite obvious reasons

Anyway, for MY playstyle the empower change is anything but a nerf from what I see so far. I play destro/resto, it’s my favorite setup on both magblade and magsorc, mostly because it’s aesthetically pleasing imo.

Vahrokh

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Beardimus

Oh @Vahrokh spot on sir. I was wondering how to reply to that and you articulated it brilliantly

And ill add, killing a whole playstyle (DW) is NOT adding diversity.

Subversus

Vahrokh wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

As OP pointed out we will get more benefit from the persistence passive now at least. If it’s any cast ability and not just those from the Daedric line that’s pretty huge. And will actually be hugely beneficial in solo pvp. It also doesn’t specify stam or mag and again if that’s both it’s pretty huge since this passive didn’t really do anything for stam sorcs before. Though idk f the wording is just vague for now and it’s only going to apply to dark magic still.

Persistence is a Dark magic passive, not Daedric Summonng. Sorcs have the most wasted passives except maybe templars. And by wasted I mean 0 benefit, not bad like Elder Dragon. If you don't run pets, you completely lose out on half of a skill trees passives.

*Edit-To be precise, stam sorcs on live receive absolutely 0 benefit from 6/12 passives, possibly 4/6 if they sacrifice 2 bar slots for Bound Armor and run Rune. Change this and stam sorcs will be in a much better place. And this should really be the first thing they change. 5/12 passives is an improvement, but still incredibly lacking.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Anyone knows if this new reduction after block applies to ulti cost? It says generic cost just like alteration mastery (which does reduce ult cost), this could be insane for sorc tanks

Dont think so, sorcs already have a 15% ult cost reduction so I dont think they will slap on another 15% after blocking an attack.

For example, it would make meteor cost only 140 ult to cast.

I fail to see the problem xD

Unless you're talking about balance, then ya I guess it's a bad thing.

All in all I think the patch looks good based on what we've seen so far. While I don't think this will bring magsorcs back to where they used to be, ZoS is slowly moving forward, albeit in a 2 steps forward 1 step back fashion.

For instance, I agree with the CC removal to Frag (not the damage change). Yes, it really does ruin fluidity and has messed with itemization/builds quite a bit, but after the CC removal I don't think that there has been such diversity in the class. Before, every mag sorc pretty much built around frags (pet sorcs are a class on their own imo). Now sorcs can build around Clench, Cage or Streak.

100% agree sorc is lacking in a lot of aspects and isn't competitive with top dogs atm, but if Frags remained as overloaded as it did, any positive sorc changes would have made the class too strong. Sorc as an individual class is much healthier than before frag nerf because it has a much more rounded base. Can't build anything good with a crappy foundation, which is what SS looks to be addressing.

Mag sorcs will probably just need some fine-tuning while stam sorcs could use a few more benefits from passives, especially seeing as how they only benefit from 1 (maybe 2) passives from Daedric Summoning. Change those passives to benefit all sorcs (with increased benefit for pet sorcs) and we should see a significantly healthier class.

I'm sorry, but your take on Frags tastes like word salad. Your premise that the CC component of Frags was 'overloaded' is complete retrospective baloney. Up until CWC there was literally just one thread asking for Frags CC to be removed - in 3+ years. Wrobel literally picked the one thing to nerf about sorc that no one had ever asked for.

Prior to frag cc removal, every sorcs bar pretty much looked the same. There was no wiggle room because nothing could compete with frags. Now you have Flame Clench sorcs, Rune Cage sorcs and Steak Sorcs (mostly 1vx open world). They all play differently and they all have their strengths/weaknesses. Before, the biggest choice sorcs had when it came to their offensive rotation was whether to backbar or front bar curse.

So no, I disagree that it's "word salad". The cc removal opened up build diversity, distinguished bad sorcs from good sorcs and opens up non-balance breaking buffs to the class.

The way the handled the frag nerf was bad for 3 reasons:
1. The real problem with sorcs wasn't their damage, it was Shield Staking+Pirate Skeleton
2. Frags was overloaded as a skill, but the class was not compensated for the nerf
3. Frags was nerfed twice in succession, when again it wasn't the primary issue. And you are correct that nobody, even non-sorcs asked for it

That said, the outcome is actually beneficial for the class if you actually look at how the class has evolved.While it hasn't gained depth, or linear progression, it has gained breadth--translating into a wider class base to build upon as well as increased build diversity.

Diversity is more than just what sets you put on. Skill diversity is just as important.

This is "subtractive diversity", that is, make something so bad, that after the nerf anything looks just as bad and thus, just as good.

Sorcs had pets and frags as distinctive signature. For years, pets have not been usable in PvP, so frags was effectively the one and only signature.

Take that away and now all we have left is a form of heavily diluted and poor version of "blink".

As of today, I could just create a magblade and be a better, more powerful and more unique sorc, than a sorc.

Sorc wipes the floor with magblade 1v1. It’s one of those Rock Paper Scissors matchup, while sorc is average against any other class.

Saying that magblade is “just a better sorc” is simply ignorant. They’re as different as they come, lol. Not to mention that magblade has an inclination to play a bit more close range (incap, concealed if 2h which is BiS this patch) while sorc is a pure ranged class.