ToRelax wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

I stopped play bgs until they will rank or separate ranfoms from premades.
I don't see any sence in both fufight as premade vs randoms there or random vs premades.
And think until we will not make its population even less than it is now, this trash will going on.
Guys, stop run battlegrounds also, Zenimax should feel this problem to at least start to fix.

But any solutions that work for all players also require a high enough population. If ZOS doesn't communicate their plans, I see little point in trying.

• Solo queue.
• Group queue.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

jaws343 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

When BGs first started they were essentially unplayable. and as you said, you would get 3-4 matches total for a day. Spending 6 hours playing 3-4 matches against the same premade groups that will win no matter your individual skill because the rest of your team isn't great, but it doesn't have as noticeable of an effect as it does now.

Now look at where we are today. I can get in 3-4 matches in an hour and a half if the queue goes fast. So in that same 6 hour time frame, I can get in around 12-16 matches. Unfortunately, that is usually 12-16 matches against the same pre-made group(s) with the same awful players in the solo queue. That is 12-16 matches where there is zero hope to win. Sure you may get lucky and get in 1 or 2 matches that don't have a pre-made. But the BG population is so low that you are often guaranteed to end up with the same players on your team or playing against you repeatedly. And it is pretty ridiculous when you can look at the roster after playing for an hour and before the match even begins you can pretty much predict how each team will do based on the players.

And there is only one reason the population is low. People don't like to enter a situation that provides zero chance of winning. It has nothing to do with them getting better because they have no chance to get better in a BG match against pre-made groups. And this is even more true for new level 50 players. Most are dead before they get an attack off. I love PVP and it took me a while to get decent at it, but even I hate that aspect of BGs. I'd prefer to run solo, outnumbered in Cyrodil before playing a battle ground match against a pre-made group.

And it's not a lack of motivation. It's discouragement. There is no system in place right now to get better at battlegrounds without running up against pre-made groups. When I first started PVPing in Cyrodil, I entered Vivec and ran to my first fight, only to be killed before I even knew what was happening. I left Vivec and jumped into Kyne to learn how to PVP and learn how play each class in PVP and now I solely play in Vivec. BG players do not have this option because even in the under 50 queue they face premades who are only there to farm them.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

Thogard wrote: »

cocoloco16 wrote: »

After reading a plethora of comments on this thread. A lot of people seem to be complaining about premades and just getting stomped on.

First things first, people need to stop QQing about getting stomped on by better players who understand their class and their counters better and know what to look for to make killing someone easier. There are players with a lot of base game mechanic experience and REALLY understand the combat. There will always be players who are just better at the game at the time than you might be. A lot of people need to understand that. Also a lot of players do not understand some of the most basic things about pvp combat such as making sure you keep a 100% up-time on your vigors (as a stamina character) for example. When a good player(s) see this (as it is easy to see even in the middle of a 4v4), a smart player will take that as an advantage and focus that person first.

About premades, they are cancer at times and that's one thing that is part of the game..however there aren't enough players that do BG's to add a premade q. IMO the reason people group up is because they are tired and do not want to que up with players who aren't as skilled as they are, who don't work together, or players who come in pve gear because theyre just trying to level PvP skill line for caltrops or something. Noone likes getting paired with those players. Im sorry but its true.

I think that there are actually enough players to separate the queues during prime time.

It’s early morning and Australia times when it’d be a problem.

But allowing both types of groups to queue for both queues (with the caveat that a 4 man premade that queues in the solo queue would be split up and on different teams in the game) would alleviate that issue.

Regarding counters - there are still a few things for which counters remain illusory. There’s still no good counter for a warden-heavy group, and there’s no good counter for decent solo stamblade unless you’re in a premade (now that soul assault and birds are nerfed). And there’s no good counter for earthgore since you can’t stack befoul in No CP.

I’m starting to get really discouraged while solo queueing because of all the nightblades. I don’t mind fighting them too much - although the double incaps while getting snipe spammed isn’t very fun. What I do mind is being the only visible player on my team because I’m on a team with three nightblades. Permanent 1v4 situation, and the NBs wait and attack once I’m already engaged and of course they won’t stack vigors because that breaks cloak. This isn’t fun for me, especially in No CP.

That’s lead to me either duo queueing or running solo in cyrodil when nobody is on. Too many invisible players changes the dynamics of combat too much.

cocoloco16 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

cocoloco16 wrote: »

After reading a plethora of comments on this thread. A lot of people seem to be complaining about premades and just getting stomped on.

First things first, people need to stop QQing about getting stomped on by better players who understand their class and their counters better and know what to look for to make killing someone easier. There are players with a lot of base game mechanic experience and REALLY understand the combat. There will always be players who are just better at the game at the time than you might be. A lot of people need to understand that. Also a lot of players do not understand some of the most basic things about pvp combat such as making sure you keep a 100% up-time on your vigors (as a stamina character) for example. When a good player(s) see this (as it is easy to see even in the middle of a 4v4), a smart player will take that as an advantage and focus that person first.

About premades, they are cancer at times and that's one thing that is part of the game..however there aren't enough players that do BG's to add a premade q. IMO the reason people group up is because they are tired and do not want to que up with players who aren't as skilled as they are, who don't work together, or players who come in pve gear because theyre just trying to level PvP skill line for caltrops or something. Noone likes getting paired with those players. Im sorry but its true.

I think that there are actually enough players to separate the queues during prime time.

It’s early morning and Australia times when it’d be a problem.

But allowing both types of groups to queue for both queues (with the caveat that a 4 man premade that queues in the solo queue would be split up and on different teams in the game) would alleviate that issue.

Regarding counters - there are still a few things for which counters remain illusory. There’s still no good counter for a warden-heavy group, and there’s no good counter for decent solo stamblade unless you’re in a premade (now that soul assault and birds are nerfed). And there’s no good counter for earthgore since you can’t stack befoul in No CP.

I’m starting to get really discouraged while solo queueing because of all the nightblades. I don’t mind fighting them too much - although the double incaps while getting snipe spammed isn’t very fun. What I do mind is being the only visible player on my team because I’m on a team with three nightblades. Permanent 1v4 situation, and the NBs wait and attack once I’m already engaged and of course they won’t stack vigors because that breaks cloak. This isn’t fun for me, especially in No CP.

That’s lead to me either duo queueing or running solo in cyrodil when nobody is on. Too many invisible players changes the dynamics of combat too much.

Players who do not know how to stack vigors are not experienced or very aware players..IE pugs, you and I both know that more experienced stam players will stack vigors as much as they can. I think a lot of what youre talking about can be fixed with having a more experienced playerbase. stamblades are strong but arent without their counters, there are a number of skills that can be used, along with detect pots which are specifially for people who go into stealth a lot. Incap does need some reworking I can agree there. But generally speaking if youre a seasoned PvP player you are generally aware of your counters and how to mitigate/avoid/counter them. Most of the playerbase does not know how to do that as this game is mainly focused around large group combat. Just my opinions tho.

Kartalin wrote: »

Also worth mentioning that these nightblades hanging out in stealth aren’t great team players. They’ll help you out if they see you focusing a solo opponent but the second you’re the one being focused they stealth off and leave you to your fate.

Likely they play the same way in Cyrodiil and have a better than 50% chance to be AD players.

Hetaira wrote: »

I enjoyed BGs a ton when they first dropped. Would not set foot in then now because they are utterly and completely broken by premade groups and pugs being thrown together.

Give me an option to queue for 100% random pug group for all 3 teams and I'll be back to playing several rounds a day.