How is this ok? Premades and their effect on BGs

Aliyavana

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nobody quits Battlegrounds when they get stomped on by a good group.

People quit Battlegrounds when they get stomped on by the same group, over and over again, that they and their random teammates have little to no change of beating and they have no option of queuing against other random teams so as to not encounter that pre-made group they can't beat.

In terms of Cyrodiil, how many times would you throw yourself with a few random PUGs against an organized small group farming a resource, getting your butts handed to you every time? How many times would you wipe before you decided to go do something else or call in reinforcements?

In Cyrodiil, you can walk away or call in reinforcements against a premade group you can't handle. In Battlegrounds, your only option is to stop playing or keep throwing yourself at them to get farmed.

Its demoralizing for a player queuing with random teammates to run into the same group, over and over, getting farmed with no option to play solely against other randomly-formed teams.

Saying "then get your own pre-made together" is basically saying "Get friends who like Battlegrounds, get voice comms, get gear and builds that mesh together, and get good - now its your turn to smash random PUGs!" AKA not very helpful to a random player who'd like to not get farmed repeatedly by the same pre-made groups while queuing with other random players.

to me it sounds more like a l2p and l2socialize issue.
and actually on ur last part u already got the problem. it is very helpfull. why should other people play worse so random pugs which dont want to learn how to play a content feel better?

L2p = what people say when they have nothing of value to contribute and cannot come up with a reasonable argument against something. They simply say "L2P".

You know the premades could L2P and then they wouldnt need the crutch of preformed groups, voice coms, dedicated heals, group buffs, etc. Maybe premades should play on our level and quit playing the game in easy mode.

Cant exactly l2p when the entire premade can effectively focus you and has your teammates on farm

TelvanniWizard

Im all in for separated quees. One for premade groups, other for pugs.

Saturn

Premades do make it awful to solo queue, but I don't know if ZOS will ever change it, just considering how bad their queueing systems are already, and how buggy they have been since their inception, as well as their lack of focus on PvP content.

Another problem is that BGs are too small, and that their format 4v4v4 doesn't work. Because there are so few players, it makes it easy to make a premade team and, if you are halfway decent, steamroll everyone who is part of an incoherent team.

Something like this would be harder to exploit, but not impossible, if the format and size was different, as like with other MMOs, i.e. 10v10 or 12v12. The current format is mostly the reason why this is such a big problem. But yeah, they should find a way to match premades with each other, though as mentioned above, I seriously doubt they'd be able to do that, considering how much they've struggled with making the queueing systems work.

Waffennacht

I stopped paying attention when a post implied they go to BGs without PvP gear

Aliyavana

Waffennacht wrote: »

I stopped paying attention when a post implied they go to BGs without PvP gear

Wait where lol

Aliyavana

ESO_Blash wrote: »

The OP is right.

Certain high-ranked players known from Cyrodiil usually abuse this system to pug-stomp matches for hours. Just seen it happen yesterday on PC EU. They don’t care about competition. They just want to earn AP in the fastest way possible and make themselves feel good by zerging solo-queuers.

THIS, its infuriating when you see top of the leaderboard players steamrolling you almost everygame

Solariken

VaranisArano wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nobody quits Battlegrounds when they get stomped on by a good group.

People quit Battlegrounds when they get stomped on by the same group, over and over again, that they and their random teammates have little to no change of beating and they have no option of queuing against other random teams so as to not encounter that pre-made group they can't beat.

In terms of Cyrodiil, how many times would you throw yourself with a few random PUGs against an organized small group farming a resource, getting your butts handed to you every time? How many times would you wipe before you decided to go do something else or call in reinforcements?

In Cyrodiil, you can walk away or call in reinforcements against a premade group you can't handle. In Battlegrounds, your only option is to stop playing or keep throwing yourself at them to get farmed.

Its demoralizing for a player queuing with random teammates to run into the same group, over and over, getting farmed with no option to play solely against other randomly-formed teams.

Saying "then get your own pre-made together" is basically saying "Get friends who like Battlegrounds, get voice comms, get gear and builds that mesh together, and get good - now its your turn to smash random PUGs!" AKA not very helpful to a random player who'd like to not get farmed repeatedly by the same pre-made groups while queuing with other random players.

But the thing is, you don't even need synergy builds and voice comms. You just need a friend or two who will actively play objectives and don't yolo-solo into 1vX situations.

So, basically the "get friends who like Battlegrounds and get good so you can be your own pre-made" solution.

Yes exactly. This is an MMO, at the end of games ask your PUG teammates to party. Do this a few times and you are sure to make some solid BG friends. It's what I did/do and it makes the experience better for everyone involved.

emilyhyoyeon

The premade issue is why I will never play BG again. Too many times I played against the same premade in consecutive games. No matchmaking/MMR system and no premade vs solo queues is a joke for serious PVP play.

Aliyavana

Solariken wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nobody quits Battlegrounds when they get stomped on by a good group.

People quit Battlegrounds when they get stomped on by the same group, over and over again, that they and their random teammates have little to no change of beating and they have no option of queuing against other random teams so as to not encounter that pre-made group they can't beat.

In terms of Cyrodiil, how many times would you throw yourself with a few random PUGs against an organized small group farming a resource, getting your butts handed to you every time? How many times would you wipe before you decided to go do something else or call in reinforcements?

In Cyrodiil, you can walk away or call in reinforcements against a premade group you can't handle. In Battlegrounds, your only option is to stop playing or keep throwing yourself at them to get farmed.

Its demoralizing for a player queuing with random teammates to run into the same group, over and over, getting farmed with no option to play solely against other randomly-formed teams.

Saying "then get your own pre-made together" is basically saying "Get friends who like Battlegrounds, get voice comms, get gear and builds that mesh together, and get good - now its your turn to smash random PUGs!" AKA not very helpful to a random player who'd like to not get farmed repeatedly by the same pre-made groups while queuing with other random players.

But the thing is, you don't even need synergy builds and voice comms. You just need a friend or two who will actively play objectives and don't yolo-solo into 1vX situations.

So, basically the "get friends who like Battlegrounds and get good so you can be your own pre-made" solution.

Yes exactly. This is an MMO, at the end of games ask your PUG teammates to party. Do this a few times and you are sure to make some solid BG friends. It's what I did/do and it makes the experience better for everyone involved.

if they bother to want to play bgs after that trainwrec of an experiance

Ihatenightblades

Imo too many useless game modes for bg. It should only be capture relic which is fun. Deathmatch always fun. And naybe the one where objective moves and you gotta control it until time runs out.

The rest of bg game modes are just unnecessary and need to be removed. Nobody even likes them

Jade1986

Slick_007 wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

However, if you actively fight against getting a system that would pit you against other premades, then its clear you arent there for the team work, and you are there for the easy wins.

says another person who hasnt put a single iota of thought into pouring out the hatred on other people. Im in a guild. you know, those social things. someone in my guild might say 'hey im going to do a bg, who wants to come?' and 3 people join them. Its a pug. literally. 4 people just happen to be from the same guild, doing the social thing and you and others are claiming that theres something wrong with saying they should be able to fight other pugs.

you know what? im saying theres something wrong with you guys. You havent thought this through and now you're having shots at anyone who disagrees with you, making bullcrap claims about those people. Take your bullcrap and bugger off.

Having shots, wut? Literally everyone one of your posts is an insult fest that selectively chooses parts of what people say so you can start an argument. Please.

Jade1986

Anotherone773 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nobody quits Battlegrounds when they get stomped on by a good group.

People quit Battlegrounds when they get stomped on by the same group, over and over again, that they and their random teammates have little to no change of beating and they have no option of queuing against other random teams so as to not encounter that pre-made group they can't beat.

In terms of Cyrodiil, how many times would you throw yourself with a few random PUGs against an organized small group farming a resource, getting your butts handed to you every time? How many times would you wipe before you decided to go do something else or call in reinforcements?

In Cyrodiil, you can walk away or call in reinforcements against a premade group you can't handle. In Battlegrounds, your only option is to stop playing or keep throwing yourself at them to get farmed.

Its demoralizing for a player queuing with random teammates to run into the same group, over and over, getting farmed with no option to play solely against other randomly-formed teams.

Saying "then get your own pre-made together" is basically saying "Get friends who like Battlegrounds, get voice comms, get gear and builds that mesh together, and get good - now its your turn to smash random PUGs!" AKA not very helpful to a random player who'd like to not get farmed repeatedly by the same pre-made groups while queuing with other random players.

You always manage to articulate the most logical arguments.

Exactly, i love them for that post.

Jade1986

Saturn wrote: »

Premades do make it awful to solo queue, but I don't know if ZOS will ever change it, just considering how bad their queueing systems are already, and how buggy they have been since their inception, as well as their lack of focus on PvP content.

Another problem is that BGs are too small, and that their format 4v4v4 doesn't work. Because there are so few players, it makes it easy to make a premade team and, if you are halfway decent, steamroll everyone who is part of an incoherent team.

Something like this would be harder to exploit, but not impossible, if the format and size was different, as like with other MMOs, i.e. 10v10 or 12v12. The current format is mostly the reason why this is such a big problem. But yeah, they should find a way to match premades with each other, though as mentioned above, I seriously doubt they'd be able to do that, considering how much they've struggled with making the queueing systems work.

Blizzard didnt change it, BW didnt chang it, i doubt ZoS will change it, and the pop will suffer because of it, and then the threads of " why is no one queuing will start " . Tried and true with several mmos already.

houjo2000b16_ESO

The problem with putting premades in with solo players is that you drive solo players out of pvp, which makes queues longer and longer for everyone, kills the pvp aspect of the game and ultimately you see what you're seeing now with the new xpac- no new pvp content because what's already there isn't being used by players enough to warrant the money and time into developing more pvp content.

Thing is, having separate queues would benefit almost everyone- solo players now have games that are far more likely to be balanced, and far less likely to see the exact same team over and over stomping you. Competitive players who want a challenge would see others like them, and thus get challenges.

The only players that want things to stay this way are those who see pvp as a farming exercise, and want the easiest and quickest way to farm. They fear losing the solo fodder because they know then they'll have to face other coordinated groups and may risk losing or at least putting effort into their wins.

Any game that has decent pvp separates premades from pugs- if there are not enough competitive pvpers looking for actual competitive group pvp to make a queue work, then that says everything to how unpopular that aspect of the game is for them. Keep that in mind when the conversation about why there's no ranked, group pvp in this game and likely never will be- the people who say they want it most are busy here on the forums also saying that there's no way there would be enough players interested in doing it.

And making pvp impossible to get into (unless you enjoy being premade stomped, which few do) is the absolute worst strategy for making the pvp community grow.

Aliyavana

houjo2000b16_ESO wrote: »

The problem with putting premades in with solo players is that you drive solo players out of pvp, which makes queues longer and longer for everyone, kills the pvp aspect of the game and ultimately you see what you're seeing now with the new xpac- no new pvp content because what's already there isn't being used by players enough to warrant the money and time into developing more pvp content.

Thing is, having separate queues would benefit almost everyone- solo players now have games that are far more likely to be balanced, and far less likely to see the exact same team over and over stomping you. Competitive players who want a challenge would see others like them, and thus get challenges.

The only players that want things to stay this way are those who see pvp as a farming exercise, and want the easiest and quickest way to farm. They fear losing the solo fodder because they know then they'll have to face other coordinated groups and may risk losing or at least putting effort into their wins.

Any game that has decent pvp separates premades from pugs- if there are not enough competitive pvpers looking for actual competitive group pvp to make a queue work, then that says everything to how unpopular that aspect of the game is for them. Keep that in mind when the conversation about why there's no ranked, group pvp in this game and likely never will be- the people who say they want it most are busy here on the forums also saying that there's no way there would be enough players interested in doing it.

And making pvp impossible to get into (unless you enjoy being premade stomped, which few do) is the absolute worst strategy for making the pvp community grow.

this

Sovjet

It's a team game, of course there are premades, the only way to counter those is to find some of your own

Arkangeloski

I don't really mind premades, and you will be surprised with how many good random groups i found, but hey! everything goes both ways and i also been in bad random groups aswell, and i know it can be frustrating at times but once u get a nice group of friends to team up then its all good

Mojomonkeyman

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

Jura23

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

I don't get it.

I dont get what youre talking about. The fact we want to have solo que (and preferably cp/no cp que as well) doesnt mean we dont want to team up in 6 months and move into the other que if we meet the right ppl to do so. Has nothing to do with anything.

Mojomonkeyman

Jura23 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

I don't get it.

I dont get what youre talking about. The fact we want to have solo que (and preferably cp/no cp que as well) doesnt mean we dont want to team up in 6 months and move into the other que if we meet the right ppl to do so. Has nothing to do with anything.

People do not ask for solutions, but bandaids. Passionate people would demand full solutions. Since they are not even motivated enough to do that I highly doubt they will ever find what they are looking for in BGs. I gave some anectodes to show where I am coming from. Clear enough?

Thogard

On PC NA there aren't a lot of good 4 man premades that still queue together regularly.

Always a treat to stumble across one, and it's even better if i can get a group together and queue against them in the 2nd match.

Jade1986

Saturn wrote: »

Premades do make it awful to solo queue, but I don't know if ZOS will ever change it, just considering how bad their queueing systems are already, and how buggy they have been since their inception, as well as their lack of focus on PvP content.

Another problem is that BGs are too small, and that their format 4v4v4 doesn't work. Because there are so few players, it makes it easy to make a premade team and, if you are halfway decent, steamroll everyone who is part of an incoherent team.

Something like this would be harder to exploit, but not impossible, if the format and size was different, as like with other MMOs, i.e. 10v10 or 12v12. The current format is mostly the reason why this is such a big problem. But yeah, they should find a way to match premades with each other, though as mentioned above, I seriously doubt they'd be able to do that, considering how much they've struggled with making the queueing systems work.

Blizzard didnt change it, BW didnt chang it, i doubt ZoS will change it, and the pop will suffer because of it, and then the threads of " why is no one queuing will start " . Tried and true with several mmos already.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

Literally everyone asked for that so far that has complained. A queue forgroups and one for not.

Tetrafy

Disagree, the que times would be way too long for pre mades.

craigr02

I own Morrowind, but i dont play battle grounds, it doesnt interest me. I play pvp with my guild and could easily get a premaid, but i dont, there's no incentive for me to play it.

JD2013

Battlegrounds are for competitive play.

Competitive people tend to run with other competitive groups.

They play to win.

If you want to win at battlegrounds, do the same.

Aliyavana

Tetrafy wrote: »

Disagree, the que times would be way too long for pre mades.

A necessary sacrifice seeing as they are ruining solo ques

houjo2000b16_ESO

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

As you say- most people aren't overly passionate about BGs in the same way. The average player expects when they go into a pvp match to have a shot at winning, or at least learning and having fun. The average player does not consider being farmed in front of their base to be fun, and won't learn anything from it other than 'this sucks'. Most players don't want to be thrown into the wolves den the first time they play, its why any game that is considered to have reputable pvp matches new players with new players (and smurfs, but that's another matter entirely).

The main solution, splitting pugs and premades, is not a bandaid. Bandaids just cover a problem without solving it permanently, eventually they have to come off- a split like that is pretty permanent and would definitely end the problem that most solo pvpers have of running into premades who control the match without effort.

If the natural process for pvp in this game is to be fodder for other players for 6-9 months as you say, then first off; the natural process of pvp in this game is absolutely terrible when most games you can start enjoying pvp right away, and secondly, nobody is going to put up with that.

Especially since most players simply have no intent to ever pvp in a premade group.

MMR is a great fix, sort of, for a game that is expected to have or already has a major pvp scene. But that's the key problem here- ESO isn't developing pvpers because most players are being pushed away from it immediately because it is not fun to get stomped for most players. Maybe for you that's fine, as you say you're dedicated- but this is a game, it's expected to be enjoyable, and as many have said- being stomped is not fun.

Being stomped is not fun.

Being stomped is not fun- I feel like I need to repeat this since this draws into my next point.

If people aren't having fun with one part of the game (pvp), they'll play another game for pvp and do parts of ESO they enjoy more.

If people aren't pvping, Zeni won't put effort into pvp, and an MMR system won't work, and queues will suffer especially in an MMR setting.

If people aren't pvping, they won't stick around in pvp long enough for a community to be built, to get good or invested in it, and for more casual players who nonetheless may be quite talented at PVP to find a group they enjoy playing with or to get good at this game's particular brand of pvp.

That hurts everyone, and I think everyone here knows that. The people who want premade and pug queues separated certainly know it, but even those who want pugs to gets stomped by premades know it since their only defense of keeping it this way is 'if we separate queues, premade queues will never pop' because the pvp population is dead since it's designed to be a niche part of the game that is extremely unpleasant for newbies to join.

Raudgrani

I only play BG alone, i.e. getting flocked together with randoms. And there's most often these rather well known - cross-alliance - PVP guys running together, and as they recognize me from Cyrodiil, they literally bully the hell out of me. It's not very fun, and I usually drop out after a couple of matches. When they're not there, it's really fun and I mostly end up with golden rewards etc., if they have stayed away most of the time I was there.

Problem is of course - they have an unfair advantage, running a well designed group, doing their usual ulti-drop-rushing and so forth, often facing people who don't even know what you are supposed to do in that specific type of match. For some reason, it makes them feel good about themselves, I dunno. Poor bullied kids, or bullies themselves? Something ain't right at least.

Loves_guars

This is why I didn't even touch BG, I knew this was going to be an issue, been there before... with other games.

zyk

How can anyone blame the premade groups themselves? It's normal to want to play with friends. I agree that it's a terrible system though.

I wish @ZOS_BrianWheeler would explain ZOS motivations to us because it's impossible they didn't consider a premade queue or GvG[vG]. Many aspects of BGs are baffling.

This is big a reason I've never really bothered with Battlegrounds.