How is this ok? Premades and their effect on BGs

Anethum

I stopped play bgs until they will rank or separate ranfoms from premades.
I don't see any sence in both fufight as premade vs randoms there or random vs premades.
And think until we will not make its population even less than it is now, this trash will going on.
Guys, stop run battlegrounds also, Zenimax should feel this problem to at least start to fix.

bardx86

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Jade1986 wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

i dont get the problem. is it the problem of those people preparing for bg and also SOCIALISING? if people queue solo for a 4-people content and dont play good together then, how can this be a problem made by those people, who are taking this content more serious and trying to be good?

This is the age old argument premades use. And as has been proven in numerous mmos, it causes the game mode to die over time.

WoW
SWTOR
and Now this game.

Seriously, stop it, people only play in a premade 99% of the time because they know the system is messed up. If you are in a premade, then you shouldnt be against playing against other premades.

what? mmos die because people socialise and communicate. flawless logic.

1. I didnt say mmos. I said small scale pvp modes.
2. The small scale game modes, do indeed die, because people get tired of being forced to play the same premades over and over and over and over again. It was the reason it happened in swtor, it is the reason it happened in wow, and it is the reason a lot of people avoid it in this game. If you want to play with friends and coordinate, thats totally cool, that is what a mmo is about. However, if you actively fight against getting a system that would pit you against other premades, then its clear you arent there for the team work, and you are there for the easy wins.

okay lets start again.

the small scale dies, because people play together? u say, people are getting tired of playing always in the same group. tells me, that for some weird reasons people arent able to also play with other premade groups and are bound to their group? actually also very weird logic. i mean, looking into the dsa rankings i see a lot of people also playing with different other friends. seemingly it works for them.

again: this is an MMO. if u want to play solo, then play solo. but there is group content. battergrounds are such group content. and people playing solo (thats what it is, there is no team in pugging, since the only communication which is possible that fast would be chatting/typing, which just doesnt work in such a fast content with more or less intelligent enemies).

there is a system, which gives u the choice to do it randomly or to premade, if u chose the way which makes u weaker and which obviously isnt the intention of that content (group play) and u lose due to this, it isnt the fault of the content, its your fault. because obviously u arent playing a tactical multiplayercontent as its intented to be played: tactial and organized.

he's got a point

bardx86

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

great post man

ToRelax

diplomatt wrote: »

I stopped play bgs until they will rank or separate ranfoms from premades.
I don't see any sence in both fufight as premade vs randoms there or random vs premades.
And think until we will not make its population even less than it is now, this trash will going on.
Guys, stop run battlegrounds also, Zenimax should feel this problem to at least start to fix.

But any solutions that work for all players also require a high enough population. If ZOS doesn't communicate their plans, I see little point in trying.

Anethum

ToRelax wrote: »

diplomatt wrote: »

I stopped play bgs until they will rank or separate ranfoms from premades.
I don't see any sence in both fufight as premade vs randoms there or random vs premades.
And think until we will not make its population even less than it is now, this trash will going on.
Guys, stop run battlegrounds also, Zenimax should feel this problem to at least start to fix.

But any solutions that work for all players also require a high enough population. If ZOS doesn't communicate their plans, I see little point in trying.

ppl will return bgs after this thing done very quick, in 1-3 days

ol_BANK_lo

Here are some of my games lately against premades:

Pre - Won 510-45-15; k/d 34-0 (rest k/d 4-38)

Pre - Won 510-75-0; k/d 34-2 (rest k/d 3-33...I had 2 of the 3 kills before I just stopped playing)

Pre - Won 500-100-0; k/d 58-3 (rest k/d 7-58...I had 2 of the kills before I just stopped playing)


It's worse in the daytime when a premade plays, because you get them over and over and over. When I see the premade, I just try to get 1 kill or capture 1 relic so we are in second place...then I just stop playing...really. @ZOS_Wrobel

Erandhir

• Solo queue.
• Group queue.

Thats how you fix it. BGS have a lot of potential, but atm is insanely broken and unbalanced, thats not fun.

ol_BANK_lo

Owondyah wrote: »

I don't get all this [snip] about premades... It's social game, get friends together and queue up and work as team. Simple as that. Don't cry over something that should not be changed.

It's TEAM based objective game - T E A M. It's meant to be played as premade.


However, I agree that it sholdn't be behind a paywall to get it a bit more populated.

EDIT: name me a game where pug vs pugs and premades vs premades. I have over 20 mmos installed, its not a case in any.

[Edited to remove profanity]

What's sad is I am leveling my toon in Under 50, and there are two groups of premades I keep running into, and it's clear they are staying there as long as possible, and leveling as slowly as possible just so they can stomp random groups of under-geared, under-skilled people. CP level people I get it. Premades there make sense, whether they get their own queue or not.

jaws343

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

When BGs first started they were essentially unplayable. and as you said, you would get 3-4 matches total for a day. Spending 6 hours playing 3-4 matches against the same premade groups that will win no matter your individual skill because the rest of your team isn't great, but it doesn't have as noticeable of an effect as it does now.

Now look at where we are today. I can get in 3-4 matches in an hour and a half if the queue goes fast. So in that same 6 hour time frame, I can get in around 12-16 matches. Unfortunately, that is usually 12-16 matches against the same pre-made group(s) with the same awful players in the solo queue. That is 12-16 matches where there is zero hope to win. Sure you may get lucky and get in 1 or 2 matches that don't have a pre-made. But the BG population is so low that you are often guaranteed to end up with the same players on your team or playing against you repeatedly. And it is pretty ridiculous when you can look at the roster after playing for an hour and before the match even begins you can pretty much predict how each team will do based on the players.

And there is only one reason the population is low. People don't like to enter a situation that provides zero chance of winning. It has nothing to do with them getting better because they have no chance to get better in a BG match against pre-made groups. And this is even more true for new level 50 players. Most are dead before they get an attack off. I love PVP and it took me a while to get decent at it, but even I hate that aspect of BGs. I'd prefer to run solo, outnumbered in Cyrodil before playing a battle ground match against a pre-made group.

And it's not a lack of motivation. It's discouragement. There is no system in place right now to get better at battlegrounds without running up against pre-made groups. When I first started PVPing in Cyrodil, I entered Vivec and ran to my first fight, only to be killed before I even knew what was happening. I left Vivec and jumped into Kyne to learn how to PVP and learn how play each class in PVP and now I solely play in Vivec. BG players do not have this option because even in the under 50 queue they face premades who are only there to farm them.

brandonv516

Thogard wrote: »

I’m a proponent of the separate queues, but making both queues available for both types of queues. Allow solo queuers to check BOTH boxes and they might get grouped up with others to fight in the premade queue. Allow the premades check both boxes and to queue for the group queue and solo queue, but if they got in the solo queue the teams would be randomized and they wouldn’t stay together. I’m aware that that opens it up to potential exploits but tbh that potential is already in the game. It would keep friends in the same match, even if they aren’t on the same team.

That system would keep the BGs populated and the queues moving.

Love it! The AP farming wouldn't concern me that much as it's already similarly done in Cyro.

ol_BANK_lo

Chaosball:

Pre - Won 500-0-0. My team had 3 kills...all of them mine. My teammates had no kills. Sooo fun (very sarcastically).

xericdx

bardx86 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

great post man

basically did the same. At the moment am playing mostly with some people I met in bg. Sometimes 2 or 3, rarely 4. No discord&,co or sets/roles combinations. Looking at the fights with other good groups I doubt that there are many super coordinated ones. I still solo/pugs and, although it s true sometimes I get stomped this way I mostly happen because of players in the group who clearly do not know much about bg and their class.
Sure, it happens to run into an unkillable group who camp thee3 ball in a corner and make the game useless, as well as players doing exploits (yup, they exist), *** happens.
Honestly do not see how you can separate completely the queues, where would you put the 2/3 people random groups? Will there be enough people for this? Anyway in small scale better players will always smash casuals. Best place to learn for beginners remain cyro where you can go with big groups.
I can Be mistaken but there is already a feature to match premade together. Having a better rank system would be great but...not sure it will ever be implemented.
Talking4 about players based (partial) solutokns5. I was surprise at the emptiness of guilds running BGs. When I started I was looking for one but no luck. Guilds can help greatly new players4 in PvP and end game contents and would really be helpful in supporting BGs. An increase in incentives for this?

Murador178

jaws343 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

When BGs first started they were essentially unplayable. and as you said, you would get 3-4 matches total for a day. Spending 6 hours playing 3-4 matches against the same premade groups that will win no matter your individual skill because the rest of your team isn't great, but it doesn't have as noticeable of an effect as it does now.

Now look at where we are today. I can get in 3-4 matches in an hour and a half if the queue goes fast. So in that same 6 hour time frame, I can get in around 12-16 matches. Unfortunately, that is usually 12-16 matches against the same pre-made group(s) with the same awful players in the solo queue. That is 12-16 matches where there is zero hope to win. Sure you may get lucky and get in 1 or 2 matches that don't have a pre-made. But the BG population is so low that you are often guaranteed to end up with the same players on your team or playing against you repeatedly. And it is pretty ridiculous when you can look at the roster after playing for an hour and before the match even begins you can pretty much predict how each team will do based on the players.

And there is only one reason the population is low. People don't like to enter a situation that provides zero chance of winning. It has nothing to do with them getting better because they have no chance to get better in a BG match against pre-made groups. And this is even more true for new level 50 players. Most are dead before they get an attack off. I love PVP and it took me a while to get decent at it, but even I hate that aspect of BGs. I'd prefer to run solo, outnumbered in Cyrodil before playing a battle ground match against a pre-made group.

And it's not a lack of motivation. It's discouragement. There is no system in place right now to get better at battlegrounds without running up against pre-made groups. When I first started PVPing in Cyrodil, I entered Vivec and ran to my first fight, only to be killed before I even knew what was happening. I left Vivec and jumped into Kyne to learn how to PVP and learn how play each class in PVP and now I solely play in Vivec. BG players do not have this option because even in the under 50 queue they face premades who are only there to farm them.

Fun fact playing with premades is even worse. U will just fall asleep killing new players not knowing what they are even doing. I played a bit with some premades and i wont play again with a 4 man premade team until we get a serparate queu for it.

Mihael

I think that separate ques is the best decision to fix this problem but it can’t be implemented until bg population rises and I think that should be the main focus for now, when there are enough people playing it will make sense to separate ques because their will actually be enough people to fill up both ques.

I think as a community we need to push zenimax to make bgs be free or at least for eso plus members, like make a forum post and have everyone rally behind it and have streamers support this thread.

I mainly play solo and it would be amazing to have separate ques but it can’t be done with bigger population

Anethum

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

U can don't get it, but should understand what is wrong with the position "If i tryharded, everyone should".
9 month u done what? ..."mouses cryed and were hurting themselves with a spikes, but resumed to eat cactus".

We fight here on the forum with a system, which is wrong, which doesn't allow players to have a challenge.
Idea of battlegrounds is cool, teamplay, much less problems with performance and ping in compare with cyrodiil.

But the fight as premade vs randoms, or as randoms vs premades. Its teriible.
Its like if in boxing to remove weight limits... yes we will respect small fighter who won 2,4 meter and 200kg giant, but how many really cool light weighted professional will even try to take part in competitions with such rules?

P.s: Talking about "complaining" about something is same complaining.

Triipzzz

We really need a solo queue free for all game type as well as grab bag.

cocoloco16

After reading a plethora of comments on this thread. A lot of people seem to be complaining about premades and just getting stomped on.

First things first, people need to stop QQing about getting stomped on by better players who understand their class and their counters better and know what to look for to make killing someone easier. There are players with a lot of base game mechanic experience and REALLY understand the combat. There will always be players who are just better at the game at the time than you might be. A lot of people need to understand that. Also a lot of players do not understand some of the most basic things about pvp combat such as making sure you keep a 100% up-time on your vigors (as a stamina character) for example. When a good player(s) see this (as it is easy to see even in the middle of a 4v4), a smart player will take that as an advantage and focus that person first.

About premades, they are cancer at times and that's one thing that is part of the game..however there aren't enough players that do BG's to add a premade q. IMO the reason people group up is because they are tired and do not want to que up with players who aren't as skilled as they are, who don't work together, or players who come in pve gear because theyre just trying to level PvP skill line for caltrops or something. Noone likes getting paired with those players. Im sorry but its true.

Thogard

cocoloco16 wrote: »

After reading a plethora of comments on this thread. A lot of people seem to be complaining about premades and just getting stomped on.

First things first, people need to stop QQing about getting stomped on by better players who understand their class and their counters better and know what to look for to make killing someone easier. There are players with a lot of base game mechanic experience and REALLY understand the combat. There will always be players who are just better at the game at the time than you might be. A lot of people need to understand that. Also a lot of players do not understand some of the most basic things about pvp combat such as making sure you keep a 100% up-time on your vigors (as a stamina character) for example. When a good player(s) see this (as it is easy to see even in the middle of a 4v4), a smart player will take that as an advantage and focus that person first.

About premades, they are cancer at times and that's one thing that is part of the game..however there aren't enough players that do BG's to add a premade q. IMO the reason people group up is because they are tired and do not want to que up with players who aren't as skilled as they are, who don't work together, or players who come in pve gear because theyre just trying to level PvP skill line for caltrops or something. Noone likes getting paired with those players. Im sorry but its true.

I think that there are actually enough players to separate the queues during prime time.

It’s early morning and Australia times when it’d be a problem.

But allowing both types of groups to queue for both queues (with the caveat that a 4 man premade that queues in the solo queue would be split up and on different teams in the game) would alleviate that issue.

Regarding counters - there are still a few things for which counters remain illusory. There’s still no good counter for a warden-heavy group, and there’s no good counter for decent solo stamblade unless you’re in a premade (now that soul assault and birds are nerfed). And there’s no good counter for earthgore since you can’t stack befoul in No CP.

I’m starting to get really discouraged while solo queueing because of all the nightblades. I don’t mind fighting them too much - although the double incaps while getting snipe spammed isn’t very fun. What I do mind is being the only visible player on my team because I’m on a team with three nightblades. Permanent 1v4 situation, and the NBs wait and attack once I’m already engaged and of course they won’t stack vigors because that breaks cloak. This isn’t fun for me, especially in No CP.

That’s lead to me either duo queueing or running solo in cyrodil when nobody is on. Too many invisible players changes the dynamics of combat too much.

cocoloco16

Thogard wrote: »

cocoloco16 wrote: »

After reading a plethora of comments on this thread. A lot of people seem to be complaining about premades and just getting stomped on.

First things first, people need to stop QQing about getting stomped on by better players who understand their class and their counters better and know what to look for to make killing someone easier. There are players with a lot of base game mechanic experience and REALLY understand the combat. There will always be players who are just better at the game at the time than you might be. A lot of people need to understand that. Also a lot of players do not understand some of the most basic things about pvp combat such as making sure you keep a 100% up-time on your vigors (as a stamina character) for example. When a good player(s) see this (as it is easy to see even in the middle of a 4v4), a smart player will take that as an advantage and focus that person first.

About premades, they are cancer at times and that's one thing that is part of the game..however there aren't enough players that do BG's to add a premade q. IMO the reason people group up is because they are tired and do not want to que up with players who aren't as skilled as they are, who don't work together, or players who come in pve gear because theyre just trying to level PvP skill line for caltrops or something. Noone likes getting paired with those players. Im sorry but its true.

I think that there are actually enough players to separate the queues during prime time.

It’s early morning and Australia times when it’d be a problem.

But allowing both types of groups to queue for both queues (with the caveat that a 4 man premade that queues in the solo queue would be split up and on different teams in the game) would alleviate that issue.

Regarding counters - there are still a few things for which counters remain illusory. There’s still no good counter for a warden-heavy group, and there’s no good counter for decent solo stamblade unless you’re in a premade (now that soul assault and birds are nerfed). And there’s no good counter for earthgore since you can’t stack befoul in No CP.

I’m starting to get really discouraged while solo queueing because of all the nightblades. I don’t mind fighting them too much - although the double incaps while getting snipe spammed isn’t very fun. What I do mind is being the only visible player on my team because I’m on a team with three nightblades. Permanent 1v4 situation, and the NBs wait and attack once I’m already engaged and of course they won’t stack vigors because that breaks cloak. This isn’t fun for me, especially in No CP.

That’s lead to me either duo queueing or running solo in cyrodil when nobody is on. Too many invisible players changes the dynamics of combat too much.

Players who do not know how to stack vigors are not experienced or very aware players..IE pugs, you and I both know that more experienced stam players will stack vigors as much as they can. I think a lot of what youre talking about can be fixed with having a more experienced playerbase. stamblades are strong but arent without their counters, there are a number of skills that can be used, along with detect pots which are specifially for people who go into stealth a lot. Incap does need some reworking I can agree there. But generally speaking if youre a seasoned PvP player you are generally aware of your counters and how to mitigate/avoid/counter them. Most of the playerbase does not know how to do that as this game is mainly focused around large group combat. Just my opinions tho.

dreado

Regarding Premades specifically, I cannot see a reasonable 'Fix' for issues many players are facing. I would be perfectly fine with disabling 4 stacking in general, that if you queued with 4 people it randomizes the entire team. This would allow queueing with an entire team and randomize teams to fight with a entire guild of friends.
I also think some of the problems that are steaming from BG's is the lack of imagination of the game modes, under no circumstance should the best mechanic for winning the game should be camping your spawn with 4 stack. Internally there are very few moving mechanics. Yes, this is PvP, Yes there should be a focus on PvP, The Objective should be an augmentation of that, not Law.

I largely play, solo and Duo. On rare occasion Ill try a Trio, or full premade, all around having less fun due to there not being a competent other, or imbalances in coordinated groups. I can largely still play effectively solo, but it's much more stress full, when paired against coordinated groups, it can almost be mathematically impossible to win an engagement, from unlikelihood, depending on what type of auto functioning sets are being worn. For instance, One might be able to consciously avoid Ulti's, heavy direct damage abilitys, and mitigate dots, and skillfully heavy attack cancels to offset heavy stamina consumption. But constant effects the hinder, and buff ally's and enemy's being stacked in 4 man, Turns each respective player into % based more effect, in all terms (Defence, offense, healing, Defiles). Sets such as: Wizards riposte, Duroks, Transmutation, Sanctuary, SPC, PA, earthgore *Incert all defile sets here*. To my earlier comment, there isn't a good way to nerf these sets or performance, Removal of Premades could really hurt BG's or Really benefit, situationally (You'd most defiantly see a meta quickly emerge that classes the benefit the most by solo or off all classes equally)

Regarding Nightblades, Which I don't disagree are a problem: But their isn't per-se A good aspect to nerf about them, Though stealth ability's being cast by any mean should arguably stop the skill specifically, perhaps play advantages of going into stealth from invisibility? This would raise skill cap for the class dramatically and also make sustain harder, but would disable to completely reset every fight cloak spam. These changes I personally think would lower the amount of Nightblade (Being the most popular class by a large margin inside and outside of BG's) While also taking away simple handicaps for the class ,while allowing certain play styles to exist, and open door to possible buffs around that specific play style. If I have to have one meta comment........... I hate to say this; Incap...... Shouldn't be nerfed in what it does, but the cost of the ability, It by all means situationally is better then dawnbreaker, Its reasonable to increase the cost to 100; The class would feel so much less satisfing without it. But overall, current Stamblade meta's are all very similar, or at least at a high level that there are ways to directly mitigate them if your constantly expecting, and able minded enough.

Overall I don't think, BG's being no CP help. Less stat is alot of the times nice, but take's away some counter play, and emphasizes situational class imbalances, Also this kill some of the common population BG's had. All together, Magicka classes working together seems unbeatable, and stamina classes in a more solo queue environment are going to preform a bit better. I think their should be reworks' to some game modes, and transition back to CP, to have some mitigation or inherently broken skills, ability's, set's, and combo's. Seriously, do we keep wanting to play in a BG's where Magicka players will only run resto ulti, and Stamina players only try to instakill with their no sustain, a constant revolution of stopping any type of counterplay?

How dare you all, to make me do a fourm post.

Thogard

cocoloco16 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

cocoloco16 wrote: »

After reading a plethora of comments on this thread. A lot of people seem to be complaining about premades and just getting stomped on.

First things first, people need to stop QQing about getting stomped on by better players who understand their class and their counters better and know what to look for to make killing someone easier. There are players with a lot of base game mechanic experience and REALLY understand the combat. There will always be players who are just better at the game at the time than you might be. A lot of people need to understand that. Also a lot of players do not understand some of the most basic things about pvp combat such as making sure you keep a 100% up-time on your vigors (as a stamina character) for example. When a good player(s) see this (as it is easy to see even in the middle of a 4v4), a smart player will take that as an advantage and focus that person first.

About premades, they are cancer at times and that's one thing that is part of the game..however there aren't enough players that do BG's to add a premade q. IMO the reason people group up is because they are tired and do not want to que up with players who aren't as skilled as they are, who don't work together, or players who come in pve gear because theyre just trying to level PvP skill line for caltrops or something. Noone likes getting paired with those players. Im sorry but its true.

I think that there are actually enough players to separate the queues during prime time.

It’s early morning and Australia times when it’d be a problem.

But allowing both types of groups to queue for both queues (with the caveat that a 4 man premade that queues in the solo queue would be split up and on different teams in the game) would alleviate that issue.

Regarding counters - there are still a few things for which counters remain illusory. There’s still no good counter for a warden-heavy group, and there’s no good counter for decent solo stamblade unless you’re in a premade (now that soul assault and birds are nerfed). And there’s no good counter for earthgore since you can’t stack befoul in No CP.

I’m starting to get really discouraged while solo queueing because of all the nightblades. I don’t mind fighting them too much - although the double incaps while getting snipe spammed isn’t very fun. What I do mind is being the only visible player on my team because I’m on a team with three nightblades. Permanent 1v4 situation, and the NBs wait and attack once I’m already engaged and of course they won’t stack vigors because that breaks cloak. This isn’t fun for me, especially in No CP.

That’s lead to me either duo queueing or running solo in cyrodil when nobody is on. Too many invisible players changes the dynamics of combat too much.

Players who do not know how to stack vigors are not experienced or very aware players..IE pugs, you and I both know that more experienced stam players will stack vigors as much as they can. I think a lot of what youre talking about can be fixed with having a more experienced playerbase. stamblades are strong but arent without their counters, there are a number of skills that can be used, along with detect pots which are specifially for people who go into stealth a lot. Incap does need some reworking I can agree there. But generally speaking if youre a seasoned PvP player you are generally aware of your counters and how to mitigate/avoid/counter them. Most of the playerbase does not know how to do that as this game is mainly focused around large group combat. Just my opinions tho.

Yeah man I’m not too worried about countering nightblades- if I have to I’ll run a detect pot or switch to my spin2win build.

But there isn’t a counter for being on a team with three nightblades lol. Being the only visible player = guaranteed focus target.

Kartalin

Also worth mentioning that these nightblades hanging out in stealth aren’t great team players. They’ll help you out if they see you focusing a solo opponent but the second you’re the one being focused they stealth off and leave you to your fate.

Likely they play the same way in Cyrodiil and have a better than 50% chance to be AD players.

Mihael

Kartalin wrote: »

Also worth mentioning that these nightblades hanging out in stealth aren’t great team players. They’ll help you out if they see you focusing a solo opponent but the second you’re the one being focused they stealth off and leave you to your fate.

Likely they play the same way in Cyrodiil and have a better than 50% chance to be AD players.

lmao this is so freaking true I'm getting beat down by 3 wardens while my nb teammate just watches from 2 feet away the whole time I'm just like " a nice fear or incap would be great right about now"

Thogard

Mihael wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Also worth mentioning that these nightblades hanging out in stealth aren’t great team players. They’ll help you out if they see you focusing a solo opponent but the second you’re the one being focused they stealth off and leave you to your fate.

Likely they play the same way in Cyrodiil and have a better than 50% chance to be AD players.

lmao this is so freaking true I'm getting beat down by 3 wardens while my nb teammate just watches from 2 feet away the whole time I'm just like " a nice fear or incap would be great right about now"

They won’t engage until your target is at 20% HP and they can get an easy kill steal

elijafire

Please limit "premade" groups to 2 or 4 and ONLY combine those groups together. Or just eliminate group Queueing and if someone rejects a Queue pop then don't let them requeue for another 10 minutes just like you do to me in dungeons and bg's when I DC and come back to 18 minute requeue wait times.

It's no fun being part of premades as a solo queue.

LadyNalcarya

Murador178 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I can only speak about myself, but I feel that most of you complaining wouldn't be very passionate participants in BGs anyways. I am not trying to be mean. Quite the opposite, I actually try to understand your thought process, but when I compare that to how I personally approach new PvP venues there is a huge difference in expectation and motivation.

I'll try to explain by outlining how I started BGs:
I was really looking forward to the Vvardenfell patch, bought morrowing mainly for BGs (and the new class) and started immidiately when they were playable (you might remember the bugs). I endured waiting 6-8 hours in the broken (buggy) queue for maybe 3-4 matches total (maybe 1h actual playtime) on a daily basis. "Waiting in the queue" means repeating the highly frustrating process of accepting void queue invites over and over, for hours, just for the slim chance of the queue working and having a match. I was motivated.

I didn't scan my Flist or guilds for potential comrades to team up with, I started solo, like I always do. I played exclusively solo for the first 6 months after BGs got introduced, got every title there was solo. From being a dedicated PvPer in other games who learned to climb ladders I acquired the attitude of always expecting to lose. A loss cant touch me if I played well, it just doesn't bother me.

It took 6-9 months of me playing solo BGs every day until I met people on similar skill level, with similar attitude who I enjoyed playing against AND to team up with. A premade formed naturally because we share the same passion for structured PvP. In those 6-9 months of daily BGs (solo) before that I probably lost more matches to premades than most of you combined.

You guys lack the motivation/dedication/passion to go through the natural process, to invest time while not being at the top of the food chain, to learn and enjoy the ride no matter if win or loss, to meet people who travel the same road and form a team. Yet, you come to the forums and demand change in your favor. Not even willing to go the easy route of asking people you know beforehand to join some BGs together. Now compare that to how much I was willing to go through, just because I enjoy the PvP so much. Be honest, do you enjoy the PvP so much?

Simply put, MMOs attract a very diverse playerbase. Amongst them many who are not the competitive type of people. Those tend to not enjoy competitive scenarios while others need them to enjoy the game. I honestly think most complaints are rooting in that conflict moreso than anything else.

Personal MMR, group matched - would be a far better solution for any skill level, eliminate pugstomping and not harm the population any further (only for the best players since there is the least amount of those usually), but instead of fighting for full solutions (showing you care enough to think it through) like that, you guys request bandaids.

I don't get it.

When BGs first started they were essentially unplayable. and as you said, you would get 3-4 matches total for a day. Spending 6 hours playing 3-4 matches against the same premade groups that will win no matter your individual skill because the rest of your team isn't great, but it doesn't have as noticeable of an effect as it does now.

Now look at where we are today. I can get in 3-4 matches in an hour and a half if the queue goes fast. So in that same 6 hour time frame, I can get in around 12-16 matches. Unfortunately, that is usually 12-16 matches against the same pre-made group(s) with the same awful players in the solo queue. That is 12-16 matches where there is zero hope to win. Sure you may get lucky and get in 1 or 2 matches that don't have a pre-made. But the BG population is so low that you are often guaranteed to end up with the same players on your team or playing against you repeatedly. And it is pretty ridiculous when you can look at the roster after playing for an hour and before the match even begins you can pretty much predict how each team will do based on the players.

And there is only one reason the population is low. People don't like to enter a situation that provides zero chance of winning. It has nothing to do with them getting better because they have no chance to get better in a BG match against pre-made groups. And this is even more true for new level 50 players. Most are dead before they get an attack off. I love PVP and it took me a while to get decent at it, but even I hate that aspect of BGs. I'd prefer to run solo, outnumbered in Cyrodil before playing a battle ground match against a pre-made group.

And it's not a lack of motivation. It's discouragement. There is no system in place right now to get better at battlegrounds without running up against pre-made groups. When I first started PVPing in Cyrodil, I entered Vivec and ran to my first fight, only to be killed before I even knew what was happening. I left Vivec and jumped into Kyne to learn how to PVP and learn how play each class in PVP and now I solely play in Vivec. BG players do not have this option because even in the under 50 queue they face premades who are only there to farm them.

Fun fact playing with premades is even worse. U will just fall asleep killing new players not knowing what they are even doing. I played a bit with some premades and i wont play again with a 4 man premade team until we get a serparate queu for it.

And that's why people stack 4 sloads, wizard's, sometimes even stuff like viper and durok + guard in "below level 50" bgs?
I'm not joking, I leveled a new char here (because I wanted style pages and didn't want to grind levels) and there are clearly 4 man groups who make new characters exclusively to prey on newbs.

Anyway, I support the idea of separating solo/duo and group queue. This way everyone will have chances to win.

newtinmpls

Hetaira wrote: »

I enjoyed BGs a ton when they first dropped. Would not set foot in then now because they are utterly and completely broken by premade groups and pugs being thrown together.

Give me an option to queue for 100% random pug group for all 3 teams and I'll be back to playing several rounds a day.

Never did try them - if this happened to fix things, I might.

Gprime31

Premades destroy all in open world too, so get friends and make one

ChunkyCat

So I made a new character to avoid the high MMR on my main stam sorc.

I jumped in the below level 50 BGs for a break from the level grind and skyshard gathering. I’m just using all training gear, but I’m doing pretty good. After 3 or 4 matches, I run into a straight up newbie premade. All players with slight variations to names that I recognize.

They’re wtf-stomping on everyone. One of them, whom I managed to kill while he was low health, sends me hate whisper because “how dare I craft a Sload while leveling up”. And that’s the safe for work version. heh.

Ya’ll mofos need Jesus.

LadyNalcarya

ChunkyCat wrote: »

So I made a new character to avoid the high MMR on my main stam sorc.

I jumped in the below level 50 BGs for a break from the level grind and skyshard gathering. I’m just using all training gear, but I’m doing pretty good. After 3 or 4 matches, I run into a straight up newbie premade. All players with slight variations to names that I recognize.

They’re wtf-stomping on everyone. One of them, whom I managed to kill while he was low health, sends me hate whisper because “how dare I craft a Sload while leveling up”. And that’s the safe for work version. heh.

Ya’ll mofos need Jesus.

Yeah, those people just dont want challenge, they want to farm new players.
And they are very salty too. Once I was queuing with my friend (both on new chars, no healers or tanks), and we crushed one of those premades. Next time we were matched, they just saw our names and quit the battleground. They were too scared to fight 4v2 (as our random teammates were legit newbies and were dead most of the time).
Hate whispers from those are very common, too. Even if you're in solo queue. How dare you kill one of those leet guys, it must be cheating! Lol.