At what point does Healer or tank become not needed?

ccfeeling · March 2018

No healer reason
Dk tank can heal himself easily, just press 2 skills

I dont think dps require healing as well...
Sorc surge, magblade swallow.
We clear every 4man content without pure healer, why? We wanna play faster, no offense...

Stam maybe? But we dont play stam lol...

eso_nya · March 2018

I dont think the problem is dds having to much selfheal or incoming dmg not high enough.

imo its a combination of leaderboards based on cleartimes and mechanics that dont happen with high dps but punish low dps by further reducing dps (e.g. skipping void run in mol).

Looking at older mechanics, like coh2, theres no dps race as ghosts spawn on timer, so bringing heal and tank makes the fight a lot easier.

Under the line, mechanics should not be skippable by high enough dps. gap shouldnt be 5k dps for average grpfinder dd vs 70k+ for veteran trial dd. fight should have other mechanics than "dps race" and "stack and burn".

Implementing that into all the grp content introduced since IC might be a problem.

Asardes · March 2018

All normal dungeon, all non-DLC veterans and vWGT can be done with 4 DDs, if they all slot self heals, and one slots a taunt and shields up at times. Most other dungeons can be done with a dedicated Tank and 3 full DDs, or 2 full DDs and one off-healer - magicka Templar and Nightblade will heal the group just using their DPS rotation and the former will also support pretty well; even a full DD Sorcerer can still get very good DPS if he drops Bound Aegis for Twilight Matriarch and heals with that. You only need a full healer in trials, since there's high incoming damage for extended periods and you can only keep people alive by spamming Healing Springs and Combat Prayer, with Energy Orbs in between. Tank setup for healer-less runs is different from what I would use when running with a full healer. When not having a healer I run "selfish" setups on my tank, focused on self healing and resource sustain, rather than maximizing group buffs and debuffs. Those scale for far less in a group of 4, compared to a group of 12. Ex. not running Torug's for that extra ~1K penetration may make a difference when running a trial for score when you want to qualify for the weekly, since it will benefit 8 DDs for fights that sometimes last for 5-10 minutes, but in vICP there's no score and you only help 2-3 people in fights where everything melts in 1 minute or less.

That's why I have 2 general setups on my magicka Templar. One is for trials, where everything is optimized for support: I have 5 SPC and either 5 Mending, Worm Cult or Twilight Remedy - depends on group makeup and what the other healer is wearing - with charged Maelstrom lightning w lightning enchant back bar and either powered Master resto front bar w either berserker enchant or resource poison - if people stack and can get healing springs on them - or precise Maelstrom restoration front bar w same enchant/poison when people are spread out and I use Rapid Regeneration/Mutagen instead of Healing Springs. The second is what I call my "solo" setup, what I use for vMA, overland and when farming gear with PuGs in dungeons, which is basically a DD setup with implicit support and sustain built into it. I wear 5 Julianos 5/4 IA w Maelstrom back bar 1 Iceheart and slot Elemental Drain chiefly for myself, heal with Purifying Light and Ritual of Retribution, and everyone can grab my Blazing Spears for resource restoration. I also run Blockade of Lightning from back bar so enemies get off-balanced, and do 1-2 heavy attacks with IA from front bar which means that even if they don't get off-balanced, they still get Minor Vulnerability on them. Staying at full resources is really easy, even with base recovery. Works reasonably well even in DLC dungeons and I've even done [Ruination] using that setup.

code65536 · March 2018

Key:
T-: no tank needed
T+: tank recommended
T++: tank highly recommended
T+++: tank required
H-: no healer needed
H+: healer recommended
H++: healer highly recommended
H+++: healer required

Assuming vet HM...

Spindle 1: T-, H-
Spindle 2: T+, H+
Banished 1: T++, H- (a Soul Blast immediately after being hit by his heavy attack is going kill a non-tank)
Banished 2: T++, H+ (keeping three Daedroths away from AoE cleave and faced away from the group is tough for a non-tank)
Fungal 1: T-, H-
Fungal 2: T+, H-
Wayrest 1: T++, H- (final boss hits very hard for someone not speced as a tank)
Wayrest 2: T+, H+
Elden 1: T+, H-
Elden 2: T+, H+
Darkshade 1: T++, H- (final boss hits very hard for someone not speced as a tank)
Darkshade 2: T-, H+
CoH1: T+, H-
CoH2: T++, H+
CoA1: T-, H-
CoA2: T++, H+
Arx: T+, H-
Volenfell: T++, H- (if the red centurion happens to go for a non-tank holding the yellow centurion, it's RIP them)
Tempest: T+, H-
Direfrost: T-, H+
Blackheart: T+, H-
Selene: T-, H-
Crucible: T++, H+ (I've tried tanking the final boss as a DPS with a back bar ice staff--it hurts)
Vaults: T-, H-
WGT: T++, H++
ICP: T+++, H+
Cradle: T+++, H++
Mazzatun: T+++, H++
Bloodroot: T+++, H++
Falkreath: T++, H++
Scalecaller: T+++, H+
Fang Lair: T+++, H++

Tanks are more important than healers. Every dungeon can be done with 1 tank and 3 DPS. That having been said, I really prefer having a healer. In my dungeon runs, we typically have enough DPS to waltz through everything, and while we can go even faster with a third DPS, I really prefer the luxury of having a healer. It means not worrying about slotting Ele, it means I get orbs, it means I don't have to worry about shielding as much, and it just makes the run go smoother. And most of the time, the healer helps out with DPS anyway--I always ask the healer to run destro ult instead of a second horn because in 4-man content, that extra destro does more than an extra horn, and if the healer drops down shards, blockade, and then heavy-attacks the target, they can do a nice bit of DPS in their healing setup.

So while healers are optional most of the time, 90% of the time, I will ask for a healer to come along. And I absolutely hate no-tank runs. Even if it's Fungal 1, I still want a tank, if only for chaining trash.

Finally, whether or not a tank or healer is needed depends on how avoidable the damage is. For example, I have three characters that have Scalecaller no-death: one of them got it in a traditional 1T1H2D setup, but the other two got them in a 1T3D setup. Why does a 1T3D setup work so well in Scalecaller? Because so much of the damage there is mechanical--they're 1-shots that can't be tanked and can't be healed and must be avoided. This is the same reason why a tank isn't needed for Selene. Back when Selene's bear would ignore block and 1-shot tanks, I quickly discovered that there was no point in having a tank--if the only way to survive was to avoid the damage entirely, then what's the use of all that armor and health? So I started to just "tank" Selene as a DPS with a back-bar taunt and just sidestep the bears. The bear is now blockable, but it is still easy to avoid (particularly for those who had practice with that mechanic back when it was a guaranteed 1-shot).

The two newest dungeons are difficult because they are very mechanically-intense, with a lot of punishing 1-shots. But this also means that healers are less important, because the damage that matters is damage that must be avoided rather than healed.

Shanjijri · March 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Griffe wrote: »

Eterminix wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?

also, you could just run a magblade and you would effectively have a healer that does good dps

I main a NB healer and sometimes, I feel Funnel Health and Refreshing Path are enough to keep people alive for 4 man content. I take Sap Essence too when it's an easy dungeon.

U remorph for dungeons?

Remorph what? Funnel Health and Refreshin Path are my skills to heal, I never change them. Sap Essence is another skill that I use only in base-game dungeon sometimes. I don't get your question, sorry.

Eterminix wrote: »

@Griffe yea pretty much, a magblade buddy of mine has 5k funnels which is enough to heal me on my tank through most stuff,,, kinda dumb.. now just imagine 3 magblades... gets rid of the need for a healer

Funnel Health is OP. XD
Frankly, I miss it and Refreshing Path on my Templar healer...

BejaProphet · March 2018

This best DPS group I've ever been a part of was 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 2 DPS. Good tank and heal builds are built recognizing the centrality of DPS in this game. My tank build can debuff enemy armor by roughly 11k. That's 22% of the DPS's damage back that would have been taken from him. Beyond that having a tank means that the monsters are going to HOLD STILL for you most of the time. They are going to stand in your AOEs, they are going to be chained into it. They will be stacked. You can run your epic rotation without worrying about running around and taking tons of hits. You get my health boost from Ebon to help prevent one shots. You get my igneous shields to help prevent one shots.

So imagine this, you are a hot shot DPS that can hit 40k DPS on a target dummy. You are God's gift to ESO and you wake up radiating awesome and you know it. What do you want? Do you want somebody to be a third or even fourth DPS in the group, or do you want a player that is going to make everything holds still while you show off, prevent you from any accidental one shots, and give you back 22% of your own DPS so you can show the world how awesome YOU are? Oh, not to mention casting Warhorn so you get to see occasional crits so big that they affirm your own DPS epicness. A unselfish tank build will always be wanted regardless of whether or not its possible to function without it. Perhaps not wanted by every individual player, but highly valued by the community as a whole.

A good heal build is going to do some similar stuff. Combat prayer constantly up, more warhorn, spell power cure, all if it magnifying the two solid DPS you do have. Oh, and some healing and DPS to boot. Probably much more to magnify the 2 DPS but I'm not a healer.

The right tank, and the right healer aren't going obsolete. Healers who want to accomplish nothing but healing with their build may be unwanted. Tanks that just want to build so that the empire state building could fall on them and they survive but they give nothing else to the group, might be unwanted. But not ones built to maximize the others in their group.

dazee · March 2018

Tasear wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

@Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.

Yes this issue trying raise. Seems like dps is outclassing need for tank or healer in gameplay. There's trials where intent in desig was 2 tanks, but we are lucky have 1 healer and tank now.

Maybe it's time relook at buffs and debuffs they give?

I would much rather they encourage hybrids and marginalize the trinity as much as possible.

kylewwefan · March 2018

The term Healer is far to ambiguous. Only in trials or Cyrodil do you need a dedicated healbot.

Healers need to be adding more to the fight. It not so great when healer does no damage and over heals the daylights from the group, and like said, much of the damage is one shot, so healer couldn’t save you anyways.

Ultimate heals are pretty much only useful Cyrodil and trials, and warhorn isn’t gonna help a low DPS group nearly as much as an extra Destro Ult. Even in a high DPS group, more damage is probably still better.

Combat prayer is useless when your DD are all over the place. Healers need to do some damage and provide resource synergy every now and then IMO. Many do.

BejaProphet · March 2018

@kylewwefan Yeah, you are touching on the one down side. When you are meant to augment others, its only worth as much as the players you are augmenting. Tanks and healers unfortunately have to ask themselves, do I want to build to make the most of good groups or build to carry bad groups. I choose the former, but its a real dilemma if you PUG. Which I do.

s7732425ub17_ESO · March 2018

Honest answer: if you are running with good players that know all of the mechanics, healers are usually not needed. But getting to this point or finding people that play like this is usually out of reach for 99% of the player population.

Trials have healing checks. Vet dungeons don't. If you do mechanics correctly, you shouldn't need a healer. And the tank should be able to completely self-sustain.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

Griffe wrote: »

Eterminix wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?

also, you could just run a magblade and you would effectively have a healer that does good dps

I take Sap Essence too when it's an easy dungeon.

This sentence lead me to believe u remorphed for dungeons.

Tasear · March 2018

dazee wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

@Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.

Yes this issue trying raise. Seems like dps is outclassing need for tank or healer in gameplay. There's trials where intent in desig was 2 tanks, but we are lucky have 1 healer and tank now.

Maybe it's time relook at buffs and debuffs they give?

I would much rather they encourage hybrids and marginalize the trinity as much as possible.

Not very fun gameplay where everyone can do everything equally well.

VaranisArano · March 2018

Healer: about the point at which the DPS can self heal AND do effective damage.

Tank: about the point that the boss doesn't require someone holding aggro to keep them in the ground-based AOEs

NyassaV · March 2018

Heavily depends on the content and how good the players are. I tend to prefer having a healer because it's more comfortable but it is not always required

LadyNalcarya · March 2018

When dungeon difficulty is designed around oneshots and its better to bring one more dd to make fights shorter. Healing scales with damage stats so any dd build can heal themselves if needed and all magicka builds have access to wards.
If anything, in dungeons tanks are more important than healers, because keeping the boss in one place is great for dps and dds wont have to care about blocking/dodging heavy attacks and cleaves.

P.S. Yeah, of course Im not talking about random pugs. Healing random pugs is worse than relogging to a dd or tank anyway in my opinion.

MerlinPendragon · March 2018

I see alot of hybrid healers that will run as DPS and switch to resto staff on back bar as needed.

If someone queues as fake tank, I am usually the one who initiates vote to kick

Nestor · March 2018

Tasear wrote: »

So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

With Everything, it all depends. However, why do you have to "lose" DPS?

While I have a 2 Bar Healer build, most every healer I have I run on one bar in Dungeons. So I can back bar a Destro or Class Damage Skills.

If the group is managing their health, I will do DPS. If their bars are dropping, I am healing and it will just take about two minutes longer to do the dungeon.

WrathOfInnos · March 2018

I think healers would be more desirable if they had more group DPS support. Let's look at a hypothetical 4 man group with 2 30k DPS and a tank.

Option A: Bring a 3rd 30k DPS for a total of 90k group DPS.

Option B: Bring a healer that does 10k DPS while buffing the group. If this healer can get each of the DPS from 30k to 40k then group DPS is still 90k.

So how does a healer increase someone's DPS by 33%?
- Combat prayer, ~6% (not really 8%)
- Warhorn primary resource, ~5%
- Warhorn health (can invest more in primary resource), ~5%
- Warhorn major force, ~3%
- SPC, ~4%
- Elemental Drain, ~12%
- Not having to vigor or shield, maybe ~10%
- Minor breach/fracture (PotL), ~ 3%
- Major slayer, ~ 4%

Rarely will all of the above apply, but it's easy to see how much buffs and debuffs can affect DPS.

Not to mention the sustain benefits from orbs, shards, worm, minor endurance/intellect, Master resto, and Magicka steal that are hard to quantify.

Overall I don't see much difference in group DPS or content difficulty when comparing Options A and B. That assumes that the healer or DPS are good at their roles, obviously a healer with no group buffs is a drag on the group (and likely why some prefer 3 DPS).

If some are not convinced, then the solution is to give healers more options or more potent buffs. A true multiplicative 8% from combat prayer would be a good start. Shorter synergy cooldowns would also help, I didn't even list Minor Force from Twilight Remedy above because with perfect use of orbs it's still only 50% uptime on 10% crit damage.

dazee · March 2018

Tasear wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

@Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.

Yes this issue trying raise. Seems like dps is outclassing need for tank or healer in gameplay. There's trials where intent in desig was 2 tanks, but we are lucky have 1 healer and tank now.

Maybe it's time relook at buffs and debuffs they give?

I would much rather they encourage hybrids and marginalize the trinity as much as possible.

Not very fun gameplay where everyone can do everything equally well.

But they won't becuase different people have different playstyles. All this does is free them to play as they like.

SaintSubwayy · March 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

There useful for learning a new 4 man dungeon but that's it no 4 man needs a healer. If your running with lfg folks then yeah they prolly need a healer but 4man dungeon are just way smoother with 3 dps.

Except veteran dlc 4 man content

Have you ever tried it?
Ran vBF HM lately with 1 tank 3 dds and it was prob the smoothest run I ve ever had in there
Same for vFL and vRoM.
Ofc certain dlc dunheons need healers, mostly vSCP and vCoS but else theres no need for a dedicated healer. Shield / vigor is enough

NoMoreChillies · March 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

maybe the heals are too strong.

I get DPS is needed but when those same players can pump out enough healing to carry through then healing itself need to be toned down.
Make healer needed by building towards it with gear and CP. Remove any damage + heal skills and replace with one (heal) or the other (damage) never both. Make heals multiply from health, not magic. Then you have tank + healer build health, and DPS build stam/mag.

Then tanks will suffer. So remove armor caps and let tanks stack resistance just like dps can stack damage.

Finally stop making 1 shot mechanics. It just cheapens the game and healers feel useless when it happens.

Vass hard mode would be nigh impossible with this suggestion

easier to balance 1 trial imo

munster1404 · March 2018

dazee wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

@Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.

Yes this issue trying raise. Seems like dps is outclassing need for tank or healer in gameplay. There's trials where intent in desig was 2 tanks, but we are lucky have 1 healer and tank now.

Maybe it's time relook at buffs and debuffs they give?

I would much rather they encourage hybrids and marginalize the trinity as much as possible.

It's an MMORPG with "roles", remember?

Tasear · March 2018

Looking at this seems like a few issues. Seems like time to look at buffs healers can provide. Over time amount of dps possible has exceed inntial exceptions of amount of group dps. Next maybe healing is to powerful or maybe something could be looked at caluclations for how healing is done. Lastly dungeon desigin definitely been better in promoting having a tank maybe it's healers turn?

code65536 · March 2018

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

maybe the heals are too strong.

I get DPS is needed but when those same players can pump out enough healing to carry through then healing itself need to be toned down.
Make healer needed by building towards it with gear and CP. Remove any damage + heal skills and replace with one (heal) or the other (damage) never both. Make heals multiply from health, not magic. Then you have tank + healer build health, and DPS build stam/mag.

Then tanks will suffer. So remove armor caps and let tanks stack resistance just like dps can stack damage.

Finally stop making 1 shot mechanics. It just cheapens the game and healers feel useless when it happens.

Vass hard mode would be nigh impossible with this suggestion

easier to balance 1 trial imo

LOL, no.

Self-sustain is strong because ESO's bread-and-butter is the single-player casual crowd.

Nerfing self-sustain isn't a matter of making one trial much more difficult. It's pretty much all endgame content. vMA, vAS, vMoL, etc.

And frankly, the status quo is fine and one of the strong points of ESO. The old MMO approach of DPS just blindly DPSing while the tank holds a target still and healers keeping them bathed in a pool of healing is horribly boring and uninspired. Newer content require much higher degrees of personal responsibility, and that is a good thing.

Furthermore, as people have already pointed out, going healerless is not an option for 90% of the game. Most players don't have that kind of self-sufficiency. They don't have the DPS to burn past mechanics. They need healers. What does it matter if top-tier players have enough self-sufficiency and DPS to run a dungeon without a healer?

The one thing that I would change, though, is this trend towards unhealable and untankable 1-shots that must be avoided. But aside from that? It sounds like a lot of hand-wringing over something that's not even a problem, with poorly conceived "solutions" that would substantially alter the dynamics of the game's combat for the worse.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

code65536 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

maybe the heals are too strong.

I get DPS is needed but when those same players can pump out enough healing to carry through then healing itself need to be toned down.
Make healer needed by building towards it with gear and CP. Remove any damage + heal skills and replace with one (heal) or the other (damage) never both. Make heals multiply from health, not magic. Then you have tank + healer build health, and DPS build stam/mag.

Then tanks will suffer. So remove armor caps and let tanks stack resistance just like dps can stack damage.

Finally stop making 1 shot mechanics. It just cheapens the game and healers feel useless when it happens.

Vass hard mode would be nigh impossible with this suggestion

easier to balance 1 trial imo

LOL, no.

Self-sustain is strong because ESO's bread-and-butter is the single-player casual crowd.

Nerfing self-sustain isn't a matter of making one trial much more difficult. It's pretty much all endgame content. vMA, vAS, vMoL, etc.

And frankly, the status quo is fine and one of the strong points of ESO. The old MMO approach of DPS just blindly DPSing while the tank holds a target still and healers keeping them bathed in a pool of healing is horribly boring and uninspired. Newer content require much higher degrees of personal responsibility, and that is a good thing.

Furthermore, as people have already pointed out, going healerless is not an option for 90% of the game. Most players don't have that kind of self-sufficiency. They don't have the DPS to burn past mechanics. They need healers. What does it matter if top-tier players have enough self-sufficiency and DPS to run a dungeon without a healer?

The one thing that I would change, though, is this trend towards unhealable and untankable 1-shots that must be avoided. But aside from that? It sounds like a lot of hand-wringing over something that's not even a problem, with poorly conceived "solutions" that would substantially alter the dynamics of the game's combat for the worse.

Agree one thing I forgot to touch on is just how few ppl that this applies to. Not very many can 3 dps thru even vanilla vet let alone the dlc dungeons. I like the skill 3 dpsing requires it keeps me engaged and focused, I would mind dps adding things that make healers more desirable provided they don't take away the skill required. maybe another difficulty. But I'm not holding my breath and did tends to over do it wen balancing so theyd prolly add in insane damage and one shots everywhere.

Tasear · March 2018

Don't have changed self sustain but still thinks about time it's looked what buffs healer can provide. There's room for improvement in resto staff line.

When's last time we seen other morph of grand healing besides healing springs or what's other option from combat prayer. Why aren't they as useful compared to other options?

VaranisArano · March 2018

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

maybe the heals are too strong.

I get DPS is needed but when those same players can pump out enough healing to carry through then healing itself need to be toned down.
Make healer needed by building towards it with gear and CP. Remove any damage + heal skills and replace with one (heal) or the other (damage) never both. Make heals multiply from health, not magic. Then you have tank + healer build health, and DPS build stam/mag.

Then tanks will suffer. So remove armor caps and let tanks stack resistance just like dps can stack damage.

Finally stop making 1 shot mechanics. It just cheapens the game and healers feel useless when it happens.

Vass hard mode would be nigh impossible with this suggestion

easier to balance 1 trial imo

LOL, no.

Self-sustain is strong because ESO's bread-and-butter is the single-player casual crowd.

Nerfing self-sustain isn't a matter of making one trial much more difficult. It's pretty much all endgame content. vMA, vAS, vMoL, etc.

And frankly, the status quo is fine and one of the strong points of ESO. The old MMO approach of DPS just blindly DPSing while the tank holds a target still and healers keeping them bathed in a pool of healing is horribly boring and uninspired. Newer content require much higher degrees of personal responsibility, and that is a good thing.

Furthermore, as people have already pointed out, going healerless is not an option for 90% of the game. Most players don't have that kind of self-sufficiency. They don't have the DPS to burn past mechanics. They need healers. What does it matter if top-tier players have enough self-sufficiency and DPS to run a dungeon without a healer?

The one thing that I would change, though, is this trend towards unhealable and untankable 1-shots that must be avoided. But aside from that? It sounds like a lot of hand-wringing over something that's not even a problem, with poorly conceived "solutions" that would substantially alter the dynamics of the game's combat for the worse.

Agree one thing I forgot to touch on is just how few ppl that this applies to. Not very many can 3 dps thru even vanilla vet let alone the dlc dungeons. I like the skill 3 dpsing requires it keeps me engaged and focused, I would mind dps adding things that make healers more desirable provided they don't take away the skill required. maybe another difficulty. But I'm not holding my breath and did tends to over do it wen balancing so theyd prolly add in insane damage and one shots everywhere.

There may only be a few who actually can do it, but there's plenty of people happy to claim they can and that therefore healers and/or tanks aren't needed. That's where the "fake tank" comes in, the people who are like "its quicker and easier without a tank, so I'll just queue up as a tank while really being a DPS with no interest in taunting, it'll be fine and how dare my group want an actual tank. Don't they know they don't need an actual tank?"

I say leave the 3 DD groups to premades where everyone knows what they are getting into.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · March 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

maybe the heals are too strong.

I get DPS is needed but when those same players can pump out enough healing to carry through then healing itself need to be toned down.
Make healer needed by building towards it with gear and CP. Remove any damage + heal skills and replace with one (heal) or the other (damage) never both. Make heals multiply from health, not magic. Then you have tank + healer build health, and DPS build stam/mag.

Then tanks will suffer. So remove armor caps and let tanks stack resistance just like dps can stack damage.

Finally stop making 1 shot mechanics. It just cheapens the game and healers feel useless when it happens.

Vass hard mode would be nigh impossible with this suggestion

easier to balance 1 trial imo

LOL, no.

Self-sustain is strong because ESO's bread-and-butter is the single-player casual crowd.

Nerfing self-sustain isn't a matter of making one trial much more difficult. It's pretty much all endgame content. vMA, vAS, vMoL, etc.

And frankly, the status quo is fine and one of the strong points of ESO. The old MMO approach of DPS just blindly DPSing while the tank holds a target still and healers keeping them bathed in a pool of healing is horribly boring and uninspired. Newer content require much higher degrees of personal responsibility, and that is a good thing.

Furthermore, as people have already pointed out, going healerless is not an option for 90% of the game. Most players don't have that kind of self-sufficiency. They don't have the DPS to burn past mechanics. They need healers. What does it matter if top-tier players have enough self-sufficiency and DPS to run a dungeon without a healer?

The one thing that I would change, though, is this trend towards unhealable and untankable 1-shots that must be avoided. But aside from that? It sounds like a lot of hand-wringing over something that's not even a problem, with poorly conceived "solutions" that would substantially alter the dynamics of the game's combat for the worse.

Agree one thing I forgot to touch on is just how few ppl that this applies to. Not very many can 3 dps thru even vanilla vet let alone the dlc dungeons. I like the skill 3 dpsing requires it keeps me engaged and focused, I would mind dps adding things that make healers more desirable provided they don't take away the skill required. maybe another difficulty. But I'm not holding my breath and did tends to over do it wen balancing so theyd prolly add in insane damage and one shots everywhere.

There may only be a few who actually can do it, but there's plenty of people happy to claim they can and that therefore healers and/or tanks aren't needed. That's where the "fake tank" comes in, the people who are like "its quicker and easier without a tank, so I'll just queue up as a tank while really being a DPS with no interest in taunting, it'll be fine and how dare my group want an actual tank. Don't they know they don't need an actual tank?"

I say leave the 3 DD groups to premades where everyone knows what they are getting into.

Yeah I'm specifically talking about premades. I'd assume none of this is or should be tried in a pug group in a vet dungeon. Fake tanks and healers ruin the lfg tool, Every one going into it should have a reasonable expectation that people are playing as there marked role.

GaelicCat · March 2018

I main a Warden tank, and for normal dungeons with guildies we often go tank and 3 DPS as I have enough heals to keep everyone up. I haven't got a lot of experience with vet dungeons yet as I'm still quite new and just under 300cp so I've not really ventured into them much, but I definitely prefer having a healer there when doing new stuff as they give me a bit of a safety net for mistakes.
I just leveled up a healer for trials as my guild was running low on them too, and we've been running 3 dps 1 heal sometimes and I have to say I much prefer 1 tank over 1 heal. DPS are squishy and you end up with mobs running all over the place. With my tank I can take most of the damage and heal it myself, and keep mobs in the aoe while the DPS can just do their thing.

Joy_Division · March 2018

If you have 3 DPS who know what they are doing, runs are faster, mechanics get skipped, and thus are a lot easier.

In particular a mag sorcerer with a Twilight gives the 3 DPS a burst heal and someone just needs to slot elemental drain.

ESO has a lot of "follow these mechanics and you wont get one shot" dungeons, which means healers aren't strictly necessary for experienced groups.