At what point does Healer or tank become not needed?

SquareSausage

Non healers heal's are OP.
The grp I'm in for 4 man run 3dd and rank.
I'm pet sorc build, 35k DPS, and the biggest heal ive pulled off with matriarch was 24k+.
Why waste that deeps in a dedicated healer when I can do BoL on my sorc and do very good DPS too.

Kilandros

3 Magicka NB DPS and a tank is the optimal setup for pretty much all 4-man content right now.

code65536

Kilandros wrote: »

3 Magicka NB DPS and a tank is the optimal setup for pretty much all 4-man content right now.

Nah, the magblades need a magsorc buff slave in tow. Magsorc provides minor sorcery, a synergy for alkosh, major berkserk (atro synergy), and minor vulnerability (via Asylum concussion).

Lynx7386

It goes back and forth and largely depends on the skill and self sustainability of your damage dealers.

Solo content - obviously no tank needed
World bosses - some need it, some don't
Normal dungeons - usually don't need a tank
Vet dungeons - usually need one for any of the harder/dlc dungeons, but some of the easier ones can be done without
Normal trials - typically need a tank
Vet trials - definitely need a tank, usually two

But again, its not a definite thing. There's a lot of vet dungeons and normal trials that can be done with a damage-oriented tank and healer.

idk

Tasear wrote: »

So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

When the group is skilled enough that they can keep themselves alive. Besides, even with a half decent group the healer shouldn’t use much to heal and would be adding to the dps.

Mureel

SquareSausage wrote: »

Non healers heal's are OP.
The grp I'm in for 4 man run 3dd and rank.
I'm pet sorc build, 35k DPS, and the biggest heal ive pulled off with matriarch was 24k+.
Why waste that deeps in a dedicated healer when I can do BoL on my sorc and do very good DPS too.

Now officially a nerf sorc thread

(Also- thanks ZOS.)

QuebraRegra

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Griffe wrote: »

Eterminix wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?

also, you could just run a magblade and you would effectively have a healer that does good dps

I take Sap Essence too when it's an easy dungeon.

This sentence lead me to believe u remorphed for dungeons.

nope.. at's a MAGBLADE healer thing, you wouldn't understand Srsly, you can slot SAP ESSENCE for the easier dungeons as a one button AOE and simultaneous group heal. It loses it's effectiveness outside of mobs,a nd on tougher content IMHO.

Zagnut123Zagnut123

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Griffe wrote: »

Eterminix wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?

also, you could just run a magblade and you would effectively have a healer that does good dps

I take Sap Essence too when it's an easy dungeon.

This sentence lead me to believe u remorphed for dungeons.

nope.. at's a MAGBLADE healer thing, you wouldn't understand Srsly, you can slot SAP ESSENCE for the easier dungeons as a one button AOE and simultaneous group heal. It loses it's effectiveness outside of mobs,a nd on tougher content IMHO.

I know about magblade healing we use one from time too time. It sounded like you remorphed based on situations. Was just curious because that would be a big gold waste. Also I do understand I play magblade among many other classes so I know mag blades strengths and shortcomings.

beetleklee

Depends. Blasting through random normals or even farming normal DLC dungeons (which tend to be long) are much much quicker with 4 DPS. I did a ton of nWGT runs for SPC gear with 4 DPS and we just blasted and burned through everything ignoring mechanics.

Even some easier vets are better with 4 DPS. I farmed vet CoA1 a lot for BSW/Sunderflame jewelry with 4 DPS and it was much quicker.

I've done some HM DLCs with 3 DPS and a tank. As long as the DPS have self heals and know the mechanics, it tends to be easier.

However heals and tanks are needed for trials.

Not sure on vDSA. A tank is definitely needed, but I've only run as the typical 2 DPS 1 Heal 1 Tank setup but I'm sure some people have done it with 3 DPS.

ccfeeling

Tank is optional in VDSA , we don't use tank unless a tank friend wanna join since day 1 .
Sorc shield is good enough .

Izaki

Mannix1958 wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

eso_nya wrote: »

When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.

This^^

So they need to lower DPS then...a major combat change again? The game should not make tanks and healers nearly useless should it?

Either lower DPS or increase health. I personally don't yet have a proper opinion on the matter, but just thought that it was necessary to mention that increasing health levels of mobs across would have the same effect as decreasing DPS.

Asardes

Yep, I've done vDSA both with 2 DD + Healer and 3 DD setup and I can confirm that the latter has always been much faster, cleaner and less tiring for me, which I was tanking. With the added DPS the trash pulls were shorter and some problematic bosses went down much faster. For example with 2 DD + Healer I always had problems in Arena 4 (Slave Pit) with a lot of chain spinners spawning all over the place due to low DPS, in Arena 7 sometimes the healer failed to kill the sacrifice and it spawned the big mob, and in the last stage low DPS is not directly a problem, but I've noticed one of the adds from the 2nd wave sometimes fails to follow me even after 2-3 repeated taunts, and still throws the negate on the group, although I'm at the lava ditch, so I prefer higher DPS so I can simply skip that wave. Typically 2DD + Healer runs stretched to 2 hours, while 3 DD ones were as short as 1h05m, and no longer than 1h30m. When I bring my Templar there it will be an off-healer, for 3 people who can mostly manage themselves, since it's far better.

dazee

Oh please the MMO "trinity" is tired and ancient and it's time games moved past having only 3 boring roles of which characters can generally only do one at a time.

FrancisCrawford

Let's pull a typical healer's job apart into pieces.

• Running HoTs. Some groups need that beyond what DDs naturally provide. Some don't.
• Providing the SPC buff (soon to be called "Major Courage"). That's a very nice buff, if you're running HoTs anyway. A magblade using Funnel Health for a spammable can probably provide this. Even Refreshing Path might be enough.
• Spamming Combat Prayer. Frankly, the numbers on the Minor Berserk buff are questionable even in a group without nightblades. And it's useless for NBs.
• Providing emergency heals. This is important. But many DDs can do it. Dual-pet sorcerers can do it very easily, for example, without dedicating a single extra bar slot. (That said, it's still a sacrifice; single-pet sorcerer is simply more fun to play.)
• Tooting Warhorn. Anybody can do this.
• Running Elemental Drain. Any magicka character can do this.
• Throwing shards/orbs. Magplars can do this for "free" as part of a damage rotation. Anybody else needs to spend a bar slot and magicka.

So while healer-like abilities are clearly useful, it's not obvious that a coordinated group needs anything resembling a traditional healer.

Voiceles PUGs, on the other hand ....

witchdoctor

dazee wrote: »

Oh please the MMO "trinity" is tired and ancient and it's time games moved past having only 3 boring roles of which characters can generally only do one at a time.

This is a good point, don't get me wrong.

However, I think ESO is in the middle; whether by design or accident, I don't know.

There is very much a Ven diagram for tanks and healers in this game. On one end are vet trials, and the other open world. Almost everything in between is a giant 'it depends.'

The question is: do they go all the way, and exchange tanks and healers for buff/de-buff support; or do they re-balance the game so that tanks and healers are required for all but overland?

I think the 'losers' (as in, those who lose out in the present model) are those reliant on PUGs for their group content. When you are in voice and know the rest of your team, you can do a LOT without a dedicated tank and/or healer. Too many PUGs though need the 'stability' offered by one person to control the boss, one person to heals, and two people who hopefully do enough damage to kill the boss first.

lassitershawn

Healers are definitely useful for doing no-death dungeon runs for challenger achievements, and I think they are useful on some HMs (while I prefer 3 DPS in FL HM, I like a healer in SCP HM). They offer a nice buffer while learning new dungeons. Necessary for some other random achievements (like stacking the diseases in SCP). A good healer can make a run much more relaxing and with good enough buffs almost makes up for DPS loss. 4 DPS isn't usually a thing in DLC dungeons, you almost always need a tank. Even in some ordinary dungeons like Wayrest and Spindle I not having a tank can be pretty awful on their final bosses.

For trials, 100% necessary, and they better be good for DLC trials. Being an excellent trial healer will earn you a lot of respect fast.

Tasear

dazee wrote: »

Oh please the MMO "trinity" is tired and ancient and it's time games moved past having only 3 boring roles of which characters can generally only do one at a time.

Why... nerco this thread?

AverageJo3Gam3r

Waffennacht wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

There useful for learning a new 4 man dungeon but that's it no 4 man needs a healer. If your running with lfg folks then yeah they prolly need a healer but 4man dungeon are just way smoother with 3 dps.

Except veteran dlc 4 man content

Anymore we run 3dps and a tank. Tanks are always needed because of one shot mechanics, but the dps just run their vMA builds. Sorcs run surge, for example.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

A lot of older content doesn’t require them and a lot of normal content doesn’t either, but pretty much all of the vet DLC dungeons and all the vet trials get pretty hairy without a good tank. Healer is more of a judgement call and depends on group makeup. If you have 3 mageblades for example, you prob don’t need a true healer. That said, the smothest runs typically have one.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

maybe the heals are too strong.

I get DPS is needed but when those same players can pump out enough healing to carry through then healing itself need to be toned down.
Make healer needed by building towards it with gear and CP. Remove any damage + heal skills and replace with one (heal) or the other (damage) never both. Make heals multiply from health, not magic. Then you have tank + healer build health, and DPS build stam/mag.

Then tanks will suffer. So remove armor caps and let tanks stack resistance just like dps can stack damage.

Finally stop making 1 shot mechanics. It just cheapens the game and healers feel useless when it happens.

I am very glad you aren’t in charge of balance or combat design. We need to be able to heal and damage, or solo content and PVP would be turned on their heads.

A mechanic that doesn’t one shot you doesn’t need to be respected. One shot mechanics are arguably the only mechanics people actually pay attention to. We don’t want all content to be stack and burn.

swirve

Eterminix wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

@Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.

this is common from what i see nowadays, just more benefit

Tasear wrote: »

Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?

also, you could just run a magblade and you would effectively have a healer that does good dps

Morgul667 wrote: »

They are usefull for trials and DLC dungeons

Others , depends on which ones

not even some dlc dungeons, not even dragonbones or HotR dungeons run healers from what i see

P.S.: a note on the divine trinity, its not needed everywhere, so i wouldn't follow it as if it were a law, its just a mere suggestion which can be skirted around with enough skill

Or low skill required content, burn stuff.

Mister_DMC

Only in elite groups of players. An elite level player can Solo almost all vet dungeons anyways so really you don't need any other roles. DPS is king, so if you have 3 players at 40k+ self buffed DPS it's strictly a race to the finish line. Kill or be killed. At that point all you need is a good tank that can hold the boss still like a target dummy and away you go. But take notice that this only works with top of the top players for dlc dungeons. I've Solo tanked and 3dps'd all vet dlc dungeons and it's a challenge to self sustain but it is fun without a healer.

Waffennacht

I have soloed just about every non-dlc dungeon vet hard mode

Clearly they don't require a healer.

Brutusmax1mus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Zagnut123Zagnut123 wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

There useful for learning a new 4 man dungeon but that's it no 4 man needs a healer. If your running with lfg folks then yeah they prolly need a healer but 4man dungeon are just way smoother with 3 dps.

Except veteran dlc 4 man content

My healer is essentially a dps with 1 ot 2 slots devoted to healing. For all vet dlc content except hm.

All other vet dungeon content i "tank" with my stam sorc dps and inner fire.

Tasear

Waffennacht wrote: »

I have soloed just about every non-dlc dungeon vet hard mode

Clearly they don't require a healer.

But was it time effective?

Tasear

Mister_DMC wrote: »

Only in elite groups of players. An elite level player can Solo almost all vet dungeons anyways so really you don't need any other roles. DPS is king, so if you have 3 players at 40k+ self buffed DPS it's strictly a race to the finish line. Kill or be killed. At that point all you need is a good tank that can hold the boss still like a target dummy and away you go. But take notice that this only works with top of the top players for dlc dungeons. I've Solo tanked and 3dps'd all vet dlc dungeons and it's a challenge to self sustain but it is fun without a healer.

My concern at time though people who mained healers where getting left out. I mean what is point in being elite healer? People you dungeon with have found it easier experience to go without you. This is the now but power creep will make gradually more of a reality for others.

Waffennacht

Tasear wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I have soloed just about every non-dlc dungeon vet hard mode

Clearly they don't require a healer.

But was it time effective?

Absolutely not! Lmfao

Stinkyremy

Thing is there is being able to do the content, and there is doing it economically.
A tank groups all the adds up for dps, so in theory, 2 dds with 20k dps are doing more dps than 2 dds with 40k dps who are running around killing the adds in portions.
Then you have tank and healer buffs and debuffs. Fracture, breach and berserk from combat prayer specifically.
Plus if the dds are having to spend time healing themselves and blocking because the enemies are doing damage to them, there is even less dps.

Best way to test it out is to time yourself with a great tank and healer with 2 dds doing a dungeon perfectly, then do the same dungeon with 4 dds.
Unfortunately, there are only a few dungeons you could test this with unless you all limit yourselves to spend only 160cp.
As a 720 you can run through most normal dungeons unarmed in a nord bathers towel and still kill all the bosses in a decent amount of time.

Stinkyremy

dazee wrote: »

Oh please the MMO "trinity" is tired and ancient and it's time games moved past having only 3 boring roles of which characters can generally only do one at a time.

This isn't just a MMO thing, this is a natural phenomena.
War works a similar way of a trinity with artillery, cavalry and infantry. Every tool in warfare, modern or historic, fits into one of these three categories.
There isn't a way to reinvent the wheel, same things apply.
Even if they were to add two different roles, like a buffer and debuffer, they still fit into the tank or healer role.

DoctorESO

Tasear wrote: »

So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

This is probably too abstract of an answer, but healers become effective when:

(DPS lost from having to shield and self-heal) = (DPS gained from having an extra DPS instead of a healer)