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At what point does Healer or tank become not needed?

Tasear
Tasear
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So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?
Edited by Tasear on March 19, 2018 9:24AM
  • Morgul667
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    They are usefull for trials and DLC dungeons

    Others , depends on which ones
  • mocap
    mocap
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    insta group in dungeon finder if you play with randoms.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?
  • MrsPink
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    Depends on the content/dd's running the content I think.

    But as someone said further up, trials and dlc dungons - run with a healer.
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  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    Tasear wrote: »
    So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

    There useful for learning a new 4 man dungeon but that's it no 4 man needs a healer. If your running with lfg folks then yeah they prolly need a healer but 4man dungeon are just way smoother with 3 dps.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Tasear wrote: »
    So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

    There useful for learning a new 4 man dungeon but that's it no 4 man needs a healer. If your running with lfg folks then yeah they prolly need a healer but 4man dungeon are just way smoother with 3 dps.

    But root of the question why is it so?
  • Waffennacht
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    Tasear wrote: »
    So you often you hear about 3 or 4 dps runs. So the question is healer effective in their role come end game? Is it worth losing a dps member?

    There useful for learning a new 4 man dungeon but that's it no 4 man needs a healer. If your running with lfg folks then yeah they prolly need a healer but 4man dungeon are just way smoother with 3 dps.

    Except veteran dlc 4 man content
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  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    @Tasear because 1 healer and one tank can't buff enough to outweigh the benefit of one extra dps.

    @Waffennacht well I guess that depends on if you know them well enough or not. I did all the two ne dungeons with some friends 3 dps 1 tank. We had two stam and 1 mag btw we did all except the hm speed run no death for fang lair.
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    @Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    @Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.

    Yes this issue trying raise. Seems like dps is outclassing need for tank or healer in gameplay. There's trials where intent in desig was 2 tanks, but we are lucky have 1 healer and tank now.

    Maybe it's time relook at buffs and debuffs they give?
  • eso_nya
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    When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

    If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

    If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

    Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

    To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    Tasear wrote: »
    @Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.

    Yes this issue trying raise. Seems like dps is outclassing need for tank or healer in gameplay. There's trials where intent in desig was 2 tanks, but we are lucky have 1 healer and tank now.

    Maybe it's time relook at buffs and debuffs they give?

    Well all trials need at least one. Dlc trials deffinetly 2. But if healers could debuff like a tank or ad unique resistens buffs maybe but tbh wen it comes to 4 mans most healers i come across suck and have a very selfish attitude towards it. So if rather just 3 dps (I haven't personally had this issue in a while but I know it's quite prevelant)
    Edited by Zagnut123Zagnut123 on March 19, 2018 9:33AM
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    @Tasear if you wanted to make healers necessary I'd say the only way would be to upscale all incoming damage. The only issue with this tho is that this game already has a steep learning curve already and that would make it that much harder.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    @Tasear if you wanted to make healers necessary I'd say the only way would be to upscale all incoming damage. The only issue with this tho is that this game already has a steep learning curve already and that would make it that much harder.

    It's just a discussion for future. I see become more and more of a thing. It's issue with the divine Trinity being unbalanced.

    Maybe we need more debuffs. More dots in design. But I do think it should be looked at.
  • Eterminix
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    @Tasear and some ppl run 1 healer now in vaa hm for score runs as well.

    this is common from what i see nowadays, just more benefit
    Tasear wrote: »
    Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?

    also, you could just run a magblade and you would effectively have a healer that does good dps

    Morgul667 wrote: »
    They are usefull for trials and DLC dungeons

    Others , depends on which ones

    not even some dlc dungeons, not even dragonbones or HotR dungeons run healers from what i see

    P.S.: a note on the divine trinity, its not needed everywhere, so i wouldn't follow it as if it were a law, its just a mere suggestion which can be skirted around with enough skill
    Edited by Eterminix on March 19, 2018 9:43AM
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  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    Tasear wrote: »
    @Tasear if you wanted to make healers necessary I'd say the only way would be to upscale all incoming damage. The only issue with this tho is that this game already has a steep learning curve already and that would make it that much harder.

    It's just a discussion for future. I see become more and more of a thing. It's issue with the divine Trinity being unbalanced.

    Maybe we need more debuffs. More dots in design. But I do think it should be looked at.

    I agree but the ppl did this back wen ic was launched. I think that more players now are are able to do enough dps to curcumvent the need of a healer in 4 mans. I kinda did a test with the passive heals mag blades the other day were i went through vet fanglair on my stamdk without using vigor and only relying on my companions heals only time I neededto heal myself was last boss while killing crystals. There just isn't enough incoming damage for me to justify a healer atm.
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    eso_nya wrote: »
    When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

    If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

    If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

    Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

    To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.

    This^^
  • Mannix1958
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    eso_nya wrote: »
    When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

    If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

    If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

    Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

    To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.

    This^^

    So they need to lower DPS then...a major combat change again? The game should not make tanks and healers nearly useless should it?
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    @Eterminix comment about skill is very prevalent. You have alot off people now that have been been playing 3 plus years and know this game like the back of the hand. Zos tends to introduce very predictable mechanics wich means if I'm a squishy dps without a healer I know wen to block rolldodge and pop vigor. Lower skill ppl still need healers to help them learn in a less chaotic environment.
  • Eterminix
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    Mannix1958 wrote: »
    eso_nya wrote: »
    When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

    If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

    If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

    Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

    To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.

    This^^

    So they need to lower DPS then...a major combat change again? The game should not make tanks and healers nearly useless should it?

    i wouldn't say its making them useless, they still have their use in other content
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  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
    Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    Mannix1958 wrote: »
    eso_nya wrote: »
    When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

    If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

    If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

    Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

    To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.

    This^^

    So they need to lower DPS then...a major combat change again? The game should not make tanks and healers nearly useless should it?

    I didn't say that. Personally the existence any role to me is completely arbitrary we couldhave a chef role for all I care. Dps is a bit out of control tho atm this is the first time were its normal for ppl get to 70k+ st on a trial boss but I'd rather not ask for a nerf, just buff weak classes
  • Mannix1958
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    Eterminix wrote: »
    Mannix1958 wrote: »
    eso_nya wrote: »
    When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

    If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

    If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

    Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

    To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.

    This^^

    So they need to lower DPS then...a major combat change again? The game should not make tanks and healers nearly useless should it?

    i wouldn't say its making them useless, they still have their use in other content

    But it seems to be shrinking...its often stated 3 or 4 DPS and the group will be able to do 90-95% of group content not counting trials.
  • Eterminix
    Eterminix
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    Mannix1958 wrote: »
    Eterminix wrote: »
    Mannix1958 wrote: »
    eso_nya wrote: »
    When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

    If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

    If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

    Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

    To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.

    This^^

    So they need to lower DPS then...a major combat change again? The game should not make tanks and healers nearly useless should it?

    i wouldn't say its making them useless, they still have their use in other content

    But it seems to be shrinking...its often stated 3 or 4 DPS and the group will be able to do 90-95% of group content not counting trials.

    its an argument of benefit, simply
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  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
    Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    Mannix1958 wrote: »
    Eterminix wrote: »
    Mannix1958 wrote: »
    eso_nya wrote: »
    When "stack and burn" is a valid tactic, u'll prolly need atleast one healer.

    If "dodge or die" is the base mechanic, u wont need a dedicated healer.

    If u have dps-checks (as in minimum grp dps so mechanics dont happen) above 60k (4 players), bringing tank and healer is a bad idea.

    Additionally as healers and dds stack nearly the same stats, 'everyone' can do good enough heals with energy orb or vigor.

    To really need a dedicated healer, u'd need mechanics that do unavoidable dps, which is higher than the tanks healthregen + mDDs orb + sDDs vigor + classes base lifesteal ((surge + funnel + sweeps + lotus + embers)/5) and so on, but does not oneshot. I dont think thats actually possible.

    This^^

    So they need to lower DPS then...a major combat change again? The game should not make tanks and healers nearly useless should it?

    i wouldn't say its making them useless, they still have their use in other content

    But it seems to be shrinking...its often stated 3 or 4 DPS and the group will be able to do 90-95% of group content not counting trials.

    It's shrinking because the content is designed to require healers for it and as the game ages ppl are going to continue to become more and more skilled at the game.
  • NoMoreChillies
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    maybe the heals are too strong.

    I get DPS is needed but when those same players can pump out enough healing to carry through then healing itself need to be toned down.
    Make healer needed by building towards it with gear and CP. Remove any damage + heal skills and replace with one (heal) or the other (damage) never both. Make heals multiply from health, not magic. Then you have tank + healer build health, and DPS build stam/mag.

    Then tanks will suffer. So remove armor caps and let tanks stack resistance just like dps can stack damage.

    Finally stop making 1 shot mechanics. It just cheapens the game and healers feel useless when it happens.
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  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    maybe the heals are too strong.

    I get DPS is needed but when those same players can pump out enough healing to carry through then healing itself need to be toned down.
    Make healer needed by building towards it with gear and CP. Remove any damage + heal skills and replace with one (heal) or the other (damage) never both. Make heals multiply from health, not magic. Then you have tank + healer build health, and DPS build stam/mag.

    Then tanks will suffer. So remove armor caps and let tanks stack resistance just like dps can stack damage.

    Finally stop making 1 shot mechanics. It just cheapens the game and healers feel useless when it happens.

    Vass hard mode would be nigh impossible with this suggestion
  • Eterminix
    Eterminix
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    aka: nerf magsorc/magblade
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  • Shanjijri
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    Eterminix wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?

    also, you could just run a magblade and you would effectively have a healer that does good dps

    I main a NB healer and sometimes, I feel Funnel Health and Refreshing Path are enough to keep people alive for 4 man content. I take Sap Essence too when it's an easy dungeon.
  • Zagnut123Zagnut123
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    Griffe wrote: »
    Eterminix wrote: »
    Tasear wrote: »
    Is there enjoy buffs for healers to be worth their spot?

    also, you could just run a magblade and you would effectively have a healer that does good dps

    I main a NB healer and sometimes, I feel Funnel Health and Refreshing Path are enough to keep people alive for 4 man content. I take Sap Essence too when it's an easy dungeon.

    U remorph for dungeons?
  • Eterminix
    Eterminix
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    @Griffe yea pretty much, a magblade buddy of mine has 5k funnels which is enough to heal me on my tank through most stuff,,, kinda dumb.. now just imagine 3 magblades... gets rid of the need for a healer
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