OdinForge wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You can't compare Cloak with Streak. Streak is more like an escape skill while Cloak is an escape skill, defensive skill and offensive skill all at once (which is horrible balance design itself).

Also only mark target really counters nightblades from all the counters listed. None of the others works against Shade Teleport + Cloak.

For the record I don't like the idea that magnb can "perma-cloak", this used to not be possible. If you cannot compare cloak to streak, I'm not sure you can say this logically.

Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment

I don't have an ability that directly counters streak, you need to combine snares, cc and gap closers. A NB can mark me and literally prevent me from using cloak effectively (short of the passives associated), same with mage light and detect pots.

I haven't played NB in bones yet but I'll go along with you when you claim that cloak is "fixed". Cloak can still be broken by any number of aoes, yet you want the cost to increase every cast?

I disagree with the logic provided thus far, cloak would have to have its base cost dramatically reduced or the counters toned way down or removed (detect pots, mage light, mark, ground aoes). It has to be a give and take with everything, just taking for the sake of taking is silly.

Only mark target is a reliable counter to Cloak, the others you mentioned can all be played around with Shade + Cloak. I'm the last one who wants stamnb getting overnerfed (I main one by myself and ticked to it during good times and also during bad times when you lost 50% of your health through one Ransack from a heavy armor tank) and that's why I created this topic: I want ZOS to nerf the right things and not do something stupid to the class like they did with magsorc (killing potential for magsorcs is zero now and shieldstacking is still an issue) or how they nerfed stamdk.

There needs to be a way for cloak to be strong as an escape tool, but not a reset the fight, cuz I'm losing tool.

Cloak needs balancing. Incap needs balancing,

so many stamblades

While in cloak regen is cut by 20% - fixed.

Maulkin wrote: »

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »

Cloak is still useless. Still gets broken. Theres still mark. There are still detect pots..

no thx

Cloak is not useless, no need to be ridiculous. If it was useless it wouldn't be on the bar of 99% of the NB builds, what with all the great skills they have to choose from.

Whether it's too strong is a subject for debate and I'm not currently convinced it is. But lets use valid arguments and not talk complete horse poop.

because it is the "most reliable" scape/defense tool on a nightblade.

cloak its not that cheap, also. it cost 3k+ magicka for 2.5 secs of invisibility on a pure stam build that means you can only cloak 3~ 4 times unless you actually invest in magicka/ regen.

cloak is not usless, but, it's not a win button either all you get to do is either scape or reset a fight.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You can't compare Cloak with Streak. Streak is more like an escape skill while Cloak is an escape skill, defensive skill and offensive skill all at once (which is horrible balance design itself).

Also only mark target really counters nightblades from all the counters listed. None of the others works against Shade Teleport + Cloak.

For the record I don't like the idea that magnb can "perma-cloak", this used to not be possible. If you cannot compare cloak to streak, I'm not sure you can say this logically.

Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment

I don't have an ability that directly counters streak, you need to combine snares, cc and gap closers. A NB can mark me and literally prevent me from using cloak effectively (short of the passives associated), same with mage light and detect pots.

I haven't played NB in bones yet but I'll go along with you when you claim that cloak is "fixed". Cloak can still be broken by any number of aoes, yet you want the cost to increase every cast?

I disagree with the logic provided thus far, cloak would have to have its base cost dramatically reduced or the counters toned way down or removed (detect pots, mage light, mark, ground aoes). It has to be a give and take with everything, just taking for the sake of taking is silly.

Only mark target is a reliable counter to Cloak, the others you mentioned can all be played around with Shade + Cloak. I'm the last one who wants stamnb getting overnerfed (I main one by myself and ticked to it during good times and also during bad times when you lost 50% of your health through one Ransack from a heavy armor tank) and that's why I created this topic: I want ZOS to nerf the right things and not do something stupid to the class like they did with magsorc (killing potential for magsorcs is zero now and shieldstacking is still an issue) or how they nerfed stamdk.

Only mark target is a reliable counter to Cloak, the others you mentioned can all be played around with Shade + Cloak.

This is not true and everything is situational. I use detect pots on my stamnb when I open world with him, because when I'm either in a 1v1 or 1vX vs other stamnbs I save the detect pot for when I get the NB into execute (when they dodge and cloak to heal) so I can gap close and finish them off. I've used this method to beat many types of NB players (good, decent, bad). I don't bother slotting mark on my stamnb because it's a wasted slot for stamnb.

Because everything is situational and while I'm generally fine being marked in stamnb vs stamnb, mark is more effective for magnb vs stamnb. And every cloak counter is amplified when used Xv1, especially mage light and expert hunter. I run into a lot of groups with a magplar or magden popping mage light while I'm trying to focus light targets, or groups with a gankblade popping expert hunter on you from stealth.

Maulkin wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

To be able to cloak indefinitely you have to use 2 regen sets + 1p regen monster set, magicka cost reduction on the jewelry, atronach mundus and one of the races with +mag regen or -mag cost, and at that point your top dps will be 8k (and yes, I actually made a build like that for giggles). Permacloaking is not a thing since Morrowind if you don't sacrifice literally everything else for it, in which case it better work. On my stamblade I can't cast cloak more than twice before running OOM, which gives a grand total of 5.8 seconds of invisibility if you time it down to a microsecond and have 0 latency.

So no, cloak doesn't need any nerfs.

That's complete nonsense, sorry.

I was farming Rattlecage weapons on my MageBlade, going solo in Vaults of Madness and I could go from first boss to Grothdarr in Cloak in my full damage build. That's like 2 mins of cloaking non stop in Julianos, Infallible Aether and Skoria with only damage glyphs on jewellery.

Out of combat regen is a lot higher than in combat regen and for PvP it is irrelevant if you can cloak permanently out of combat, since everyone has access to perma out of combat stealth via sneak anyway.

A magblade can still perma cloak in combat if build for some sustain, but i doubt a stam nb can without investing heavily magicka sustain.
But the better mobility allows stamblades to cover more ground during cloak and sneak passives from medium armor (+ maybe even race passives), allow them to go into sneak after cloaking away much easier/faster than a magblade. So the latter doesn't only has a lot more issues with getting cloak off successfully, due to snares and tons of stuff that break cloak, but it is also a lot more reliant on consecutive cloaks in oder to have a chance at getting away at all. A stacking cost increase would probably hurt magblades more than stamblades.

ZeroXFF wrote: »

To be able to cloak indefinitely you have to use 2 regen sets + 1p regen monster set, magicka cost reduction on the jewelry, atronach mundus and one of the races with +mag regen or -mag cost, and at that point your top dps will be 8k (and yes, I actually made a build like that for giggles). Permacloaking is not a thing since Morrowind if you don't sacrifice literally everything else for it, in which case it better work. On my stamblade I can't cast cloak more than twice before running OOM, which gives a grand total of 5.8 seconds of invisibility if you time it down to a microsecond and have 0 latency.

So no, cloak doesn't need any nerfs.

You need all this on sorc even if you don't streak a single time.

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

F_16C_VIPER wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Another thread about a player who is challenged to use the counter to cloak so he/she wants the game changed to they can play it at their skill level?

Reality check for OP. There are counters, as you even mention. Just because you do not want to use the counters or figure out how to use them that does not warrant a need for a change to the game. Though another reality check is MMOs, and Zos is not immune, often to dumb down their game to make it easier for some to play because of threads like this.

So you will probably eventually get your wish and ESO will die a little as a result.

Reality check for @idk .
You do realize that OP is one of the best stamblades on PC EU right? He's not a player 'who is challenged to use the counter to cloak', he's a player that has played stamblade long enough to know how overpowered cloak spam is on a STAMINA nightblade.

You fools realize that OP can cloak 20 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) times in a row, right? How can people even defend this, cloak needs a massive nerf for the stamina part of the nightblade class, period.

20 times in a row, huh? Try 3-4 if you're a true stamblade and not some kind of hybrid. Hyperbole doesn't help anyone in this debate.

It's no hyperbole, it's the ability to be able to build an overpowered character. You obviously have no idea how that works or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Go ahead and enlighten me then.

And spread even more cancer in the game? I'm good thanks.

I bet everyone that doesn't think cloak is op runs something like troll king + eternal hunt that they saw on a YouTube build video and are suddenly stamblade masters and believe no other (better) setup exist.

I have a feeling it's more like you can't back up your statement with facts so you have to resort to even more exaggeration to try and make your point.

Play vampire (optional), use tripots, some CP in magrec, tristat enchants and goldfood for example. Here you go. It's actually a difficult task to run out of magicka with that.

Rianai wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

To be able to cloak indefinitely you have to use 2 regen sets + 1p regen monster set, magicka cost reduction on the jewelry, atronach mundus and one of the races with +mag regen or -mag cost, and at that point your top dps will be 8k (and yes, I actually made a build like that for giggles). Permacloaking is not a thing since Morrowind if you don't sacrifice literally everything else for it, in which case it better work. On my stamblade I can't cast cloak more than twice before running OOM, which gives a grand total of 5.8 seconds of invisibility if you time it down to a microsecond and have 0 latency.

So no, cloak doesn't need any nerfs.

That's complete nonsense, sorry.

I was farming Rattlecage weapons on my MageBlade, going solo in Vaults of Madness and I could go from first boss to Grothdarr in Cloak in my full damage build. That's like 2 mins of cloaking non stop in Julianos, Infallible Aether and Skoria with only damage glyphs on jewellery.

Out of combat regen is a lot higher than in combat regen and for PvP it is irrelevant if you can cloak permanently out of combat, since everyone has access to perma out of combat stealth via sneak anyway.

A magblade can still perma cloak in combat if build for some sustain, but i doubt a stam nb can without investing heavily magicka sustain.
But the better mobility allows stamblades to cover more ground during cloak and sneak passives from medium armor (+ maybe even race passives), allow them to go into sneak after cloaking away much easier/faster than a magblade. So the latter doesn't only has a lot more issues with getting cloak off successfully, due to snares and tons of stuff that break cloak, but it is also a lot more reliant on consecutive cloaks in oder to have a chance at getting away at all. A stacking cost increase would probably hurt magblades more than stamblades.

Simple maths. For magblades with 2k in-combat Mag Regen and 3.2k Cloak cost (5-1-1, no cost-redux glyphs) it means losing ~1.2k of max magicka every ~2". I doubt there's a magblade with less than 40k max magicka in PvP out there, so I reckon that the vast majority can sustain cloak in-combat for upwards of 1m 30s. And that's sustain without taking pots into consideration.

Like you said, cloak works better for Stamblades at the moment, because shuffle->dodge->cloak works tremendously well. Which is why I said that if they give stacking cost, they should consider giving it snare removal. And maybe reducing the cost of the base skill a little.

End of the day, it's a mag skill. You're not supposed to have high sustain on it as a stam build. Like Stam Sorcs can't sustain more than 2-3 Streaks for example. That's a good template for stamblades. While personally when running Shacklebreaker and with a tri-pot I can pull off 5-6 cloaks comfortably, if no-one breaks me out of it.