Give Cloak stacking cost

Ragnaroek93 · February 2018

It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).

Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).

Greetings

Datthaw · February 2018

Imo it would need and snare removal function at that point. Streak as an escape doest care if you're snared, you're still moving x distance. Night blade gets snared and it's comical, particularly magblades not running 2h build. Try to cloak out and you move 8m and hope the aoe spam goes in the wrong direction.

And before someone says it yes I know image is a gap creator just like streak, however it is not readily available.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2018

Putting a stacking cost on Streak was one of the worst balancing decisions ZOS ever made in the game, I’d rather not see that repeated with Cloak, or any other skill for that matter.

Cloak “maybe” saves your life from being zerged down 1 out of 10 times. Nearly every class slots a counter to it by default...Sorcs = Thunderform, DK = Volatile Armor, Nightblade = Mark and Wardens = shalks

I had to build my Nightblade tanky because I’m always either Marked, Detect poted, or Radiant Lighted....I only used it for the Minor Protection these days...it’s rare it’s usefil for getting away as a magblade in the snare meta..,better to stand and fight

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2018

Datthaw wrote: »

Imo it would need and snare removal function at that point. Streak as an escape doest care if you're snared, you're still moving x distance. Night blade gets snared and it's comical, particularly magblades not running 2h build. Try to cloak out and you move 8m and hope the aoe spam goes in the wrong direction.

And before someone says it yes I know image is a gap creator just like streak, however it is not readily available.

That’s exactly why Elusive Mist is on my bar so I can still run Destro/Resto and use Lights Champion...with out Mist Form or FM your just snared and pinned down all the time....

Ragnaroek93 · February 2018

You can't compare Cloak with Streak. Streak is more like an escape skill while Cloak is an escape skill, defensive skill and offensive skill all at once (which is horrible balance design itself).

Also only mark target really counters nightblades from all the counters listed. None of the others works against Shade Teleport + Cloak.

Rianai · February 2018

So in order to get Cloak off somewhat reliably you need Shade. Don't you think investing 2 skills for escaping should allow a player to actually get away at least sometimes? Is being able to run away really that op?

Skander · February 2018

Agreed. It's frustrating seeing STAMINA nightblades being able to overcloak everything. It should have a cost increase Imo. So STAMINA nightblades won't spam it as they are doing now.

Dracane · February 2018

Cloak nerfs will never happen. Never have, never will.
People are calling for them since the first dawn rose over Tamriel and it never happened.

No matter how much meta Nightblade will be or how many there are, it won't happen. Nightblades are like a disease, their population sometimes grows rapidly and sometimes they vanish again.

technohic · February 2018

I’d be ok with it if it had the purge again. Maybe also make it to where it will auto put you in sneak after the initial cloak. Would still kind of hurt me a little bit as I use cloak spam to avoid being vamp for the movement speed while sneaking

ofSunhold · February 2018

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Putting a stacking cost on Streak was one of the worst balancing decisions ZOS ever made in the game, I’d rather not see that repeated with Cloak, or any other skill for that matter.

Agree with you there. I think they didn't want to make it any more expensive, since it's such an important escape mechanism, but they absolutely refuse to add cooldowns so that was the compromise.

There are so many things that break cloak and stealth in the game at this point it's just comical people still complain about it. It doesn't need a nerf.

ArpamiesFin · February 2018

nerf is needed. i can pretty much perma cloak with my stamblades 11k magicka and 600 regen

Mureel · February 2018

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).

Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).

Greetings

Give vigor stacking cost AKA Streak Treatment too.

ofSunhold · February 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Cloak nerfs will never happen. Never have, never will.

One of the morphs of cloak used to cleanse DOTs. Now it gives a couple of seconds of slightly better defense instead. Nerf.

idk · February 2018

Another thread about a player who is challenged to use the counter to cloak so he/she wants the game changed to they can play it at their skill level?

Reality check for OP. There are counters, as you even mention. Just because you do not want to use the counters or figure out how to use them that does not warrant a need for a change to the game. Though another reality check is MMOs, and Zos is not immune, often to dumb down their game to make it easier for some to play because of threads like this.

So you will probably eventually get your wish and ESO will die a little as a result.

Solariken · February 2018

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Putting a stacking cost on Streak was one of the worst balancing decisions ZOS ever made in the game, I’d rather not see that repeated with Cloak, or any other skill for that matter.

Cloak “maybe” saves your life from being zerged down 1 out of 10 times. Nearly every class slots a counter to it by default...Sorcs = Thunderform, DK = Volatile Armor, Nightblade = Mark and Wardens = shalks

I had to build my Nightblade tanky because I’m always either Marked, Detect poted, or Radiant Lighted....I only used it for the Minor Protection these days...it’s rare it’s usefil for getting away as a magblade in the snare meta..,better to stand and fight

I disagree, stacking cost for Streak and Roll were some of the best decisions ZOS made - it's one of the few things you can do in a game without cooldowns.

I will say though that they were a little heavy-handed with the stacking modifiers - 50% for Streak is over the top. Dropping both to 25% would feel about right.

Lord-Otto · February 2018

ofSunhold wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Cloak nerfs will never happen. Never have, never will.

One of the morphs of cloak used to cleanse DOTs. Now it gives a couple of seconds of slightly better defense instead. Nerf.

Not really.
They built the Purge into Cloak, so it suppresses the DoT, freeing up the morph choice for a bugged crit guarantee that supercharges Vigor.
Less a nerf than throwing a small rope into the deep grave mag DKs were in back then, really.

Ragnarock41 · February 2018

Took you guys 3 months to realize this was inevitable..

Ragnarock41 · February 2018

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Putting a stacking cost on Streak was one of the worst balancing decisions ZOS ever made in the game, I’d rather not see that repeated with Cloak, or any other skill for that matter.

Cloak “maybe” saves your life from being zerged down 1 out of 10 times. Nearly every class slots a counter to it by default...Sorcs = Thunderform, DK = Volatile Armor, Nightblade = Mark and Wardens = shalks

I had to build my Nightblade tanky because I’m always either Marked, Detect poted, or Radiant Lighted....I only used it for the Minor Protection these days...it’s rare it’s usefil for getting away as a magblade in the snare meta..,better to stand and fight

Volatile armor costs a lot more than spamming cloak non stop fyi. The issue is gow frequent nb can use this to avoid getting hit.

Drdeath20 · February 2018

There really is no defense. Nerfs are comming.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Every day I come here and think "finally, we've reached that level where nobody can possibly post something more stupid than anything posted before", then someone like the op says "here, hold my beer and watch this"

DemonDruaga · February 2018

Just lol. Like 1 out of 10 fights i can cloak around, the rest i will just stay detected due the various cloak counters there are.

On my stam dk i usualy don't loose to a stam blade because of their cloaking, i can break that imidiatly, the defile and insane bleed builds are what tears me apart, not their 0.5 seconds invisibility before i detect em again.
But opinions differ i'd say

Ragnaroek93 · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Every day I come here and think "finally, we've reached that level where nobody can possibly post something more stupid than anything posted before", then someone like the op says "here, hold my beer and watch this"

Yeah, giving Cloak a stacking cost is for sure the dumbest idea in the whole forum... Looking forward to see you complaining in 3 months when Nbs get nerfed. And don't be surprised if they nerf the wrong things. Magsorcs also defended shieldstacking and skelly pirate over months and what happened? Everything from magsorc was nerfed instead of nerfing the right things. Stamdks also defended Redguard, vitality potions and heavy armor... look up what happened to stamdks. Not saying that Cloak is on the same level as heavy armor + vit pots were or skelly pirate sorc with 3 shields was but it's not balanced either.

DemonDruaga wrote: »

Just lol. Like 1 out of 10 fights i can cloak around, the rest i will just stay detected due the various cloak counters there are.

On my stam dk i usualy don't loose to a stam blade because of their cloaking, i can break that imidiatly, the defile and insane bleed builds are what tears me apart, not their 0.5 seconds invisibility before i detect em again.
But opinions differ i'd say

It is ok to die against opponents. It is not ok if your opponent can easily survive forever. We don't need nerfs which increase the time to kill even further.

Mureel wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

It actually happened: Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment and in exchange maybe tune down the hardcounters for Cloak or give some Siphoning skills stam morphs if stamblade turns out to be too weak with a Cloak nerf (magblade already seems to be playable without Cloak from what I've seen).

Before other nightblades *** or hatemail me now keep in mind that I'm playing a nightblade by myself (stamnb since beta) and that one third of the Cyro population are currently nightblades and accept that the class will most likely get a nerf. "L2P", "git gud" and "Cloak is easy to counter" (which it is not unless you run mark target) doesn't help, do some useful suggestions and hope that ZOS will not nerf the wrong things instead (or stay out of this thread please).

Greetings

Give vigor stacking cost AKA Streak Treatment too.

Rofl. Giving a heal over time stacking cost doesn't make sense at all but whatever. Mentally prepared myself anyways before creating this thread.

TheYKcid · February 2018

Having mained stamblade since HotR, I have to admit that cloak feels completely overtuned since the fix, from experience playing on, and against, the class—at least in smallscale and 1v1 play.

Cloak has always been strong. I can't think of any other non-ultimate ability that not only lets someone reset a fight, but ALSO transition into a freakish offensive window immediately after. Only the caveat of low reliability under pressure kept it in-check and balanced. Which was a good thing; it encouraged smart, tactical usage—like setting-up with LOS, circling, rolling or creating distance before attempting to go into cloak.

Currently, even the trashiest NBs I run into can reap all these benefits with an incredible degree of reliability, dipping in and out of a losing fight with impunity. It's WAY too forgiving on sloppy play. It's artificially inflating the survivability AND lethality of bad players to a great extent.

Stamblade was already one of the stronger (though not strongest by any means) class specs BEFORE the Dragon Bones update. Taking into account the cloak fix, compounded with the spectral bow buff (which, as of today's patch 3.37, has additionally been un-nerfed to its previous stacking mechanics), it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to consider that stamblades may have been inadvertently pushed into overperformance territory.

I don't know if a stacking cost on cloak is the answer, but a nerf of some kind is due.

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER · February 2018

Cloak is still useless. Still gets broken. Theres still mark. There are still detect pots..

no thx

Maulkin · February 2018

From my MagBlade's POV, I'd be highly reluctant to see Cloak nerfed the way Streak was but.... if it was offered with a buff, like snare removal, it would be very palatable.

+1 on @Datthaw for his idea.

As it is at the moment, it has too many counters that Streak doesn't have. Detect Pots, Mark, Snares, ground AoE damage (Clartrops, Blockade etc.). None of these stop my Sorc from performing 2-3 Streaks and getting to LOS cover, while they stop Cloak on its tracks. So if Cloak gets a cost stack, it should offer a tangible benefit that can't get so easily negated, like the movement of Streak. And snare removal would do exactly that.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You can't compare Cloak with Streak. Streak is more like an escape skill while Cloak is an escape skill, defensive skill and offensive skill all at once (which is horrible balance design itself).

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Putting a stacking cost on Streak was one of the worst balancing decisions ZOS ever made in the game, I’d rather not see that repeated with Cloak, or any other skill for that matter.

Disagree with both of these statements and I main Sorc and have been for years. I use Streak offensively as much as defensively, every decent Sorc who uses Streak (instead of BoL) does. It does decent damage, procs implosion, stuns enemies before an ult hits, pulls players out of Stealth/Invis.

The cost increase was also kinda warranted, cause otherwise the mobility was practically infinite. Especially at the time when we had CPs with skill cost reduction. It wasn't balanced at the time. There were different ways it could be nerfed, like I had suggested at the time that dealing damage or stunning an opponent should reset the cost increase so it can be used offensively by Sorcs without penalties while Streaking into the sunset would still be nerfed. At the moment, in a NB vs Sorc fight the Sorc can only afford to pull the NB out of cloak 2-3 times with Streak before the cost becomes completely prohibitive, while my MagBlade can cloak 7-8 times without problems and avoid 100% of the fights he doesn't want to participate in.

TL;DR; A nerf alone would be too harsh. A buff-nerf combo that helps you out in this snare heavy meta and reduces your reliance on 2h and FM, would be a more acceptable solution.

OdinForge · February 2018

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

You can't compare Cloak with Streak. Streak is more like an escape skill while Cloak is an escape skill, defensive skill and offensive skill all at once (which is horrible balance design itself).

Also only mark target really counters nightblades from all the counters listed. None of the others works against Shade Teleport + Cloak.

For the record I don't like the idea that magnb can "perma-cloak", this used to not be possible. If you cannot compare cloak to streak, I'm not sure you can say this logically.

Cloak got fixed and doesn't break for no reason anymore and therefore the ability is completely overpowered now. I would suggest giving it the Streak treatment

I don't have an ability that directly counters streak, you need to combine snares, cc and gap closers. A NB can mark me and literally prevent me from using cloak effectively (short of the passives associated), same with mage light and detect pots.

I haven't played NB in bones yet but I'll go along with you when you claim that cloak is "fixed". Cloak can still be broken by any number of aoes, yet you want the cost to increase every cast?

I disagree with the logic provided thus far, cloak would have to have its base cost dramatically reduced or the counters toned way down or removed (detect pots, mage light, mark, ground aoes). It has to be a give and take with everything, just taking for the sake of taking is silly.

Ragnarock41 · February 2018

just watch this turn into a buff nb thread in a few hours.

Mark

My

Words.

Subversus · February 2018

idk wrote: »

Another thread about a player who is challenged to use the counter to cloak so he/she wants the game changed to they can play it at their skill level?

Reality check for OP. There are counters, as you even mention. Just because you do not want to use the counters or figure out how to use them that does not warrant a need for a change to the game. Though another reality check is MMOs, and Zos is not immune, often to dumb down their game to make it easier for some to play because of threads like this.

So you will probably eventually get your wish and ESO will die a little as a result.

Reality check for @idk .
You do realize that OP is one of the best stamblades on PC EU right? He's not a player 'who is challenged to use the counter to cloak', he's a player that has played stamblade long enough to know how overpowered cloak spam is on a STAMINA nightblade.

You fools realize that OP can cloak 20 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) times in a row, right? How can people even defend this, cloak needs a massive nerf for the stamina part of the nightblade class, period.

Maulkin · February 2018

DRAGON_KILLER_HUNTER wrote: »

Cloak is still useless. Still gets broken. Theres still mark. There are still detect pots..

no thx

Cloak is not useless, no need to be ridiculous. If it was useless it wouldn't be on the bar of 99% of the NB builds, what with all the great skills they have to choose from.

Whether it's too strong is a subject for debate and I'm not currently convinced it is. But lets use valid arguments and not talk complete horse poop.

ZeroXFF · February 2018

To be able to cloak indefinitely you have to use 2 regen sets + 1p regen monster set, magicka cost reduction on the jewelry, atronach mundus and one of the races with +mag regen or -mag cost, and at that point your top dps will be 8k (and yes, I actually made a build like that for giggles). Permacloaking is not a thing since Morrowind if you don't sacrifice literally everything else for it, in which case it better work. On my stamblade I can't cast cloak more than twice before running OOM, which gives a grand total of 5.8 seconds of invisibility if you time it down to a microsecond and have 0 latency.

So no, cloak doesn't need any nerfs.

oXI_Viper_IXo · February 2018

Subversus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Another thread about a player who is challenged to use the counter to cloak so he/she wants the game changed to they can play it at their skill level?

Reality check for OP. There are counters, as you even mention. Just because you do not want to use the counters or figure out how to use them that does not warrant a need for a change to the game. Though another reality check is MMOs, and Zos is not immune, often to dumb down their game to make it easier for some to play because of threads like this.

So you will probably eventually get your wish and ESO will die a little as a result.

Reality check for @idk .
You do realize that OP is one of the best stamblades on PC EU right? He's not a player 'who is challenged to use the counter to cloak', he's a player that has played stamblade long enough to know how overpowered cloak spam is on a STAMINA nightblade.

You fools realize that OP can cloak 20 (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) times in a row, right? How can people even defend this, cloak needs a massive nerf for the stamina part of the nightblade class, period.

20 times in a row, huh? Try 3-4 if you're a true stamblade and not some kind of hybrid. Hyperbole doesn't help anyone in this debate.