MLGProPlayer wrote: »arkansas_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Warden remains in that spot where it's just not viable to change anything without making it hilariously broken in PVP.
It is what it is.
Nonsense. The only reason warden is considered OP by some in PvP is the undodgeable cliff racer. Make that ability dodgeable, and you can balance the warden however you like. It's not a hard problem to solve.
Not really. The meta PVP Warden build is a stam Warden that runs Dizzying Swing for it's spammable over Cutting Dive, because Dizzying stuns and does more damage. The thing that makes Warden strong is it's passives and that it gets an AOE burst skill (Subterranean Assault) that they can combo with world and weapon skills: an AOE burst ulti (Dawnbreaker), and an AOE execute that restores ulti (Reverse Slice with Asylum 2H.)
(It also gets an anti-ranged shield that gives one of the strongest buffs in the game that they can keep up indefinitely because the shield also restores the resource that it cost to cast it, but that's besides the point)
That's stamina warden. We're talking about magicka warden in this thread. They have separate morphs.
They have been nerfing and buffing left and right around both pve and pvp for past 4 years and even if you disagree with some stuff they did... they did them. They do things.They never sit and not to do things because they are 'afraid' lol...
Sabbathius wrote: »They have been nerfing and buffing left and right around both pve and pvp for past 4 years and even if you disagree with some stuff they did... they did them. They do things.They never sit and not to do things because they are 'afraid' lol...
I would argue that just because ZOS isn't doing anything, that doesn't mean the class is "fine".
For example, in a vet trial, how often do you see DKs healing? In the same vet trials, how often do you see Sorcs and Nightblades main tanking? If ZOS knows what they're doing, and these classes are "fine", then they should perform in those roles quite well, and competitive, no? So how come some class roles are just completely broken? I mean, just as an example, a competitive DK healer hasn't been a thing for how long? Years, right? For reasons like Cauterize doesn't self-heal, as far as I know. And when was the last time skills like Cauterize and Obsidian Shard were even touched? And what passives help a DK to be a group healer? Could it be...none? And could that be because DK passives haven't been touched (except to nerf them) since before Imperial City patch?
See what I mean? Just because ZOS doesn't do anything, it doesn't mean the situation is "fine". Just because ZOS ignores MagWardens, does not mean MagWardens are "fine". Don't get me wrong, they might be, I mostly play Stamina. But your assumptions are flawed because there's plenty of examples of classes in roles where they are so subpar that they border on unplayable, and have been ignored by ZOS for years.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »There are ways to buff them for PvE without making them more OP in PvP, even without applying different tooltips for both parts (like they somehow did with Negate).
E.g. If they make birds deal a bit lesser dmg on impact but giving them a nice DoT to make up for that, maybe even exeding the current tooltip if you sum both damages up. This would soften the issue of bird spamming in PvP and give them a bit better DPS in PvE.
This is neither an optimal suggestion nor is it well thought through. It's just an example of how things could be balanced.
Warden was supposed to be support class.
Thats one thing. Second thing is why is not anything happening? Because they are fine. Wardens are fine.
MLGProPlayer wrote: »Warden was supposed to be support class.
Stop making stuff up.
They have a DPS skill line, a tanking skill line, and a healing skill line. They were designed to fill every role, like every other class in the game.Thats one thing. Second thing is why is not anything happening? Because they are fine. Wardens are fine.
Most trial leader boards don't feature a single warden in the top-100. They are the most underrepresented class in competitive end game content. They're the opposite of fine in PvE, unless you consider "fine" being not used in end game content.
Wardens don't even come close to hitting acceptable end game DPS numbers. Even with DPS being the easiest role to get a spot with on an end game roster (because there are so many spots), they don't see much action there because they're the only class that can't reach basic cutoff numbers. They also aren't good enough tanks and healers to displace DKs and templars in those roles, so they don't get picked there either.
Buffing swarm, perhaps making it an ground DoT, now it require an target.Epicasballs wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Epicasballs wrote: »Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.
Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.
Done.
All pets are double bar'd and Wardens should not be the exception. Increasing a wardens sustained pressure while they keep their giant burst combos is a terrible idea. Try harder. Wardens have massive burst, easy access to heals and overloaded buffs. Nerfing their heals in PvP hurts them in PvE as healers for those rare few that do heal as a Warden. Increasing their damage would help them in PvE but make them OP in PvP. Nerfing their buffs for PvP would hurt them as Tanks in PvE. It's not a simple thing to balance both halves and unless ZOS separates the two one side is always going to have it better than the other.
VilniusNastavnik wrote: »You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.
I always found it strange that shock damage was the one that got Minor Vulnerability of the three elements, on top of the 8% AoE damage boost for Lightning Staffs. Inferno has 8% single target and burning, and Frost has ... nothing. If Minor Vulnerability was applied by frost damage (Chilled) instead of shock (Concussed), it would be a worthwhile support element to bring into group content. Minor Maim is absolutely redundant because it's already applied by the tank, and shock damage already has off-balance for group support with Lightning Wall.
MLGProPlayer wrote: »Warden was supposed to be support class.
Stop making stuff up.
They have a DPS skill line, a tanking skill line, and a healing skill line. They were designed to fill every role, like every other class in the game.Thats one thing. Second thing is why is not anything happening? Because they are fine. Wardens are fine.
Most trial leader boards don't feature a single warden in the top-100. They are the most underrepresented class in competitive end game content. They're the opposite of fine in PvE, unless you consider "fine" being not used in end game content.
Wardens don't even come close to hitting acceptable end game DPS numbers. Even with DPS being the easiest role to get a spot with on an end game roster (because there are so many spots), they don't see much action there because they're the only class that can't reach basic cutoff numbers. They also aren't good enough tanks and healers to displace DKs and templars in those roles, so they don't get picked there either.
I am not making stuff lol. The whole premise of warden was to support allies. Check any interview or eso live about wardens
And also stop replying to comment you don't bother to read at all. Your argument literally stands on not reading single word of wrote, because YES, being viable for ANY CONTENT IN THE GAME ON ANY ROLE IS FINE. Not being top100 raids or smth has like nothing to do with being fine. It has never been priority of ZoS to create diversity at the end end game.
Cant fault ZOS for not buffing warden if every PTS you create thread and complain about top100 leaderboards and how bear is not single bared. Start making better excuses for buffing, than stuff that is not important.
Wardens as DD do not operate as ZoS promised to. They dont offer any support in offensive role. There. This is good enough reason to change them. Not leaderboards for 0.1% of playerbase. Not DPS on dummy.
MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Warden was supposed to be support class.
Stop making stuff up.
They have a DPS skill line, a tanking skill line, and a healing skill line. They were designed to fill every role, like every other class in the game.Thats one thing. Second thing is why is not anything happening? Because they are fine. Wardens are fine.
Most trial leader boards don't feature a single warden in the top-100. They are the most underrepresented class in competitive end game content. They're the opposite of fine in PvE, unless you consider "fine" being not used in end game content.
Wardens don't even come close to hitting acceptable end game DPS numbers. Even with DPS being the easiest role to get a spot with on an end game roster (because there are so many spots), they don't see much action there because they're the only class that can't reach basic cutoff numbers. They also aren't good enough tanks and healers to displace DKs and templars in those roles, so they don't get picked there either.
I am not making stuff lol. The whole premise of warden was to support allies. Check any interview or eso live about wardens
And also stop replying to comment you don't bother to read at all. Your argument literally stands on not reading single word of wrote, because YES, being viable for ANY CONTENT IN THE GAME ON ANY ROLE IS FINE. Not being top100 raids or smth has like nothing to do with being fine. It has never been priority of ZoS to create diversity at the end end game.
Cant fault ZOS for not buffing warden if every PTS you create thread and complain about top100 leaderboards and how bear is not single bared. Start making better excuses for buffing, than stuff that is not important.
Wardens as DD do not operate as ZoS promised to. They dont offer any support in offensive role. There. This is good enough reason to change them. Not leaderboards for 0.1% of playerbase. Not DPS on dummy.
Ever play a MOBA or a competitive shooter?
Characters/guns are always balanced around the highest level of play because that ensures they are viable for everyone.
Wardens are not fine for everyone right now. If you're not a competitive end game DD, you need to have perfect gear + a perfect rotation as a magicka warden in order to hit even remotely competent DPS numbers. Someone with a sorc or NB can hit those numbers with non-BiS gear and a sloppy rotation. Magicka warden sucks just as much for leader board runs as it does for lower end play. That's why you balance at the highest level.
MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Warden was supposed to be support class.
Stop making stuff up.
They have a DPS skill line, a tanking skill line, and a healing skill line. They were designed to fill every role, like every other class in the game.Thats one thing. Second thing is why is not anything happening? Because they are fine. Wardens are fine.
Most trial leader boards don't feature a single warden in the top-100. They are the most underrepresented class in competitive end game content. They're the opposite of fine in PvE, unless you consider "fine" being not used in end game content.
Wardens don't even come close to hitting acceptable end game DPS numbers. Even with DPS being the easiest role to get a spot with on an end game roster (because there are so many spots), they don't see much action there because they're the only class that can't reach basic cutoff numbers. They also aren't good enough tanks and healers to displace DKs and templars in those roles, so they don't get picked there either.
I am not making stuff lol. The whole premise of warden was to support allies. Check any interview or eso live about wardens
And also stop replying to comment you don't bother to read at all. Your argument literally stands on not reading single word of wrote, because YES, being viable for ANY CONTENT IN THE GAME ON ANY ROLE IS FINE. Not being top100 raids or smth has like nothing to do with being fine. It has never been priority of ZoS to create diversity at the end end game.
Cant fault ZOS for not buffing warden if every PTS you create thread and complain about top100 leaderboards and how bear is not single bared. Start making better excuses for buffing, than stuff that is not important.
Wardens as DD do not operate as ZoS promised to. They dont offer any support in offensive role. There. This is good enough reason to change them. Not leaderboards for 0.1% of playerbase. Not DPS on dummy.
Ever play a MOBA or a competitive shooter?
Characters/guns are always balanced around the highest level of play because that ensures they are viable for everyone.
Wardens are not fine for everyone right now. If you're not a competitive end game DD, you need to have perfect gear + a perfect rotation as a magicka warden in order to hit even remotely competent DPS numbers. Someone with a sorc or NB can hit those numbers with non-BiS gear and a sloppy rotation. Magicka warden sucks just as much for leader board runs as it does for lower end play. That's why you balance at the highest level.
rustic_potato wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Warden was supposed to be support class.
Stop making stuff up.
They have a DPS skill line, a tanking skill line, and a healing skill line. They were designed to fill every role, like every other class in the game.Thats one thing. Second thing is why is not anything happening? Because they are fine. Wardens are fine.
Most trial leader boards don't feature a single warden in the top-100. They are the most underrepresented class in competitive end game content. They're the opposite of fine in PvE, unless you consider "fine" being not used in end game content.
Wardens don't even come close to hitting acceptable end game DPS numbers. Even with DPS being the easiest role to get a spot with on an end game roster (because there are so many spots), they don't see much action there because they're the only class that can't reach basic cutoff numbers. They also aren't good enough tanks and healers to displace DKs and templars in those roles, so they don't get picked there either.
I am not making stuff lol. The whole premise of warden was to support allies. Check any interview or eso live about wardens
And also stop replying to comment you don't bother to read at all. Your argument literally stands on not reading single word of wrote, because YES, being viable for ANY CONTENT IN THE GAME ON ANY ROLE IS FINE. Not being top100 raids or smth has like nothing to do with being fine. It has never been priority of ZoS to create diversity at the end end game.
Cant fault ZOS for not buffing warden if every PTS you create thread and complain about top100 leaderboards and how bear is not single bared. Start making better excuses for buffing, than stuff that is not important.
Wardens as DD do not operate as ZoS promised to. They dont offer any support in offensive role. There. This is good enough reason to change them. Not leaderboards for 0.1% of playerbase. Not DPS on dummy.
Ever play a MOBA or a competitive shooter?
Characters/guns are always balanced around the highest level of play because that ensures they are viable for everyone.
Wardens are not fine for everyone right now. If you're not a competitive end game DD, you need to have perfect gear + a perfect rotation as a magicka warden in order to hit even remotely competent DPS numbers. Someone with a sorc or NB can hit those numbers with non-BiS gear and a sloppy rotation. Magicka warden sucks just as much for leader board runs as it does for lower end play. That's why you balance at the highest level.
MMO dont and cannot follow MOBA style of balancing (5k DOTA 2 player here). Morrowind balance patch was the closest you got to a MOBA style game balance and half the raiding community left the game. People expect progression in MMOs their characters need to keep getting stronger as they keep playing.
Although ZOS totally screwed up Warden launch they are taking baby steps to increase its viablity in end game PVE. Its really strong in organized PVP groups and buffing it for PVE would make them broken level OP in PVP. We will eventually see them buffed enough to be viable in PVE just got to be patient. Magika Nightblades were at the bottom of the barrel for almost a year and half and see how they perform now.
stileanima wrote: »
VilniusNastavnik wrote: »Now do a solo parse on a dummy self buffed without the raid buffing.
@stileanima Very nice!
Is there anything unusual about your build or is this the usual 5x Julianos, 3x moondancer / infal / willpower, and is that a nerien'eth lich crystal proc???
Asylum inferno / vMA lightning setup?
stileanima wrote: »VilniusNastavnik wrote: »Now do a solo parse on a dummy self buffed without the raid buffing.
Not technically "solo" as someone else would be providing Ele Drain in a raid, but here you go.
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
Nice dps but have you tried how much dps you get without the bear? Would be interesting to see how much dps the bear enables since pets are not everywhere welcome.
(Also 1.9k mag/sec drain seems quite high.)
As far as i know fetcher dot is still bugged and procs direct damage sets like scathing and Nerien'eth but i think it is fixed on pts.
WrathOfInnos wrote: »I disagree that Warden is useless without the bear. I find it is about a 2k loss on a dummy (39-40k with, 37-38k without). In trials it is probably more like 3-4K loss for single target, but it is a DPS gain to use elemental rage over the bear on any fight with adds.
stileanima wrote: »Nice dps but have you tried how much dps you get without the bear? Would be interesting to see how much dps the bear enables since pets are not everywhere welcome.
(Also 1.9k mag/sec drain seems quite high.)
As far as i know fetcher dot is still bugged and procs direct damage sets like scathing and Nerien'eth but i think it is fixed on pts.
Bear-less DPS is not good. That ulti alone adds around, if not more than, 5k single target DPS to the Mag Warden's total damage output. In their current state, I wouldn't bring a Mag Warden to any raid where I couldn't use the Eternal Guardian on every boss fight. And in general, I wouldn't bring them at all to any competitive raid, lol.
As far as my Mag drain per second goes, in that CMX report, it's important to note that the Blue Betty is for some reason not counted as a part of my regen per second. Also for that parse, my character was not a Vampire, which also gave me less regen. Near the end of that parse as well, I sort of "went ham" since I knew the target would die before I ran out of resources.
This is what my regen and drain/sec look like in an actual raid (vMoL in particular is really good for Magicka sustain):
For the above parse, I am also missing a bit of regen because I am not yet Support/Assault Rank 9.
And yeah, Fetcher Infection is still considered direct damage on the live server. Even without it though, Nerien'eth will still proc quite frequently with a spammable Force Pulse build since you will have three+ chances to proc it with every cast of Force Pulse, not to mention with every light attack. Fetcher Infection only ticks once every two seconds anyway, so while it is a contributor to Nerien'eth procs, the fix won't be build-breaking when the next update goes live.
stileanima wrote: »Nice dps but have you tried how much dps you get without the bear? Would be interesting to see how much dps the bear enables since pets are not everywhere welcome.
(Also 1.9k mag/sec drain seems quite high.)
As far as i know fetcher dot is still bugged and procs direct damage sets like scathing and Nerien'eth but i think it is fixed on pts.
Bear-less DPS is not good. That ulti alone adds around, if not more than, 5k single target DPS to the Mag Warden's total damage output. In their current state, I wouldn't bring a Mag Warden to any raid where I couldn't use the Eternal Guardian on every boss fight. And in general, I wouldn't bring them at all to any competitive raid, lol.
As far as my Mag drain per second goes, in that CMX report, it's important to note that the Blue Betty is for some reason not counted as a part of my regen per second. Also for that parse, my character was not a Vampire, which also gave me less regen. Near the end of that parse as well, I sort of "went ham" since I knew the target would die before I ran out of resources.
This is what my regen and drain/sec look like in an actual raid (vMoL in particular is really good for Magicka sustain):
For the above parse, I am also missing a bit of regen because I am not yet Support/Assault Rank 9.
And yeah, Fetcher Infection is still considered direct damage on the live server. Even without it though, Nerien'eth will still proc quite frequently with a spammable Force Pulse build since you will have three+ chances to proc it with every cast of Force Pulse, not to mention with every light attack. Fetcher Infection only ticks once every two seconds anyway, so while it is a contributor to Nerien'eth procs, the fix won't be build-breaking when the next update goes live.
It's nice, but still doesn't compare to stamsorc's 68k dps. And doesn't excuse clunky rotation or heavy bear reliance.