Magicka warden is still the worst PvE class in the game

Arobain

tell that to my 11k health ice warden tank that so far has tanked VWGT and VCOA2, you only think its bad because you're too lazy or afraid to actually make your own build, and try new stuff instead of following the meta

MLGProPlayer

Arobain wrote: »

tell that to my 11k health ice warden tank that so far has tanked VWGT and VCOA2, you only think its bad because you're too lazy or afraid to actually make your own build, and try new stuff instead of following the meta

Show me a magicks warden DPS build that can compete with the other classes.

Show me a warden tank build that teams would take into a vet trial over a DK.

You can't.

That's the problem with warden. They're a viable tank and healer (although groups will always take DK/templar over them) and not even close to a viable DPS.

If you look at the top-100 leaderboards right now, it's the same story that we've seen for the past year: no wardens.

On PC/NA:

Top-100 vMoL? 0 wardens
Top-100 vHoF? 0 wardens
Top-100 vAS? 3 wardens

They're the most underrepresented class in endgame right now, and it's not even close. You can pretend like you're hardcore and you have knowledge of some OP builds that no one else has discovered (which you don't), but it doesn't change facts. Wardens are criminally underpowered in PvE right (especially magicka wardens).

Doctordarkspawn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Warden remains in that spot where it's just not viable to change anything without making it hilariously broken in PVP.

It is what it is.

Nonsense. The only reason warden is considered OP by some in PvP is the undodgeable cliff racer. Make that ability dodgeable, and you can balance the warden however you like. It's not a hard problem to solve.

Yet, I get the feeling if they buff -anything- else, threads will spawn on it?

Faulgor

Enough of this nonsense. PvE and PvP are balanced separately all the time, they have very different requirements in skills, morphs, traits, passives, gear, etc used. Toning Wardens down a bit in PvP and giving them viable magicka DPS in PvE is not witchcraft.
But we already made numerous suggestions during every PTS cycle, to increase overall and specifically DOT damage, as well as group utility for Wardens to have an incentive to bring them along, but ZOS doesn't respond. It's fruitless.

Arobain

INSTANTLY avoided what i said, and COMPLETELY narrow minded, christ, i cant show you that stuff, because i dont copy builds from the internet, but i can tell you that wardens have amazing dps AND tank potential, but honestly? it doesnt matter what the *** i say to you, you are still going to be ignorant and stubborn and COMPLETELY stuck up your own ass to possibly see anything outside of your own cone of existence, so theres no point continuing this topic with you, since you arent here to discuss, you are here to whine and complain

Integral1900

To be read in epic movie advert voice

“The Warden... a pvp class in a 95% pve game”

Liofa

Magicka DK says hi

MLGProPlayer

Arobain wrote: »

INSTANTLY avoided what i said, and COMPLETELY narrow minded, christ, i cant show you that stuff, because i dont copy builds from the internet, but i can tell you that wardens have amazing dps AND tank potential, but honestly? it doesnt matter what the *** i say to you, you are still going to be ignorant and stubborn and COMPLETELY stuck up your own ass to possibly see anything outside of your own cone of existence, so theres no point continuing this topic with you, since you arent here to discuss, you are here to whine and complain

I avoided what you said because you provided zero evidence to support your statement.

If you're going to make claims like those, be ready to back them up with numbers.

I gave you numbers supporting why the warden is currently in a bad place. You provided nothing.

Integral1900

With a heavy heart I deleted my warden this morning, everything fully upgraded across the board but it just wasn’t enough, thirty two diffrent builds and four race changes... even a gender swap... I know when I’m beaten and I have to say that in pve this thing sucks, my Templar will double the overall output and is just as survivable, the lightning sorc is a beast and the dk is utterly and gorgeously cinematic. They are not going to fix this class with its messy ability timers, thick as a brick bear, ugly exploding bugs (why they changed the look I will never know, it was so beautiful back then) and god aweful sustained dps output, time to move on

StoicSunbro

Another idea on Warden DPS: Make the shalks surface 3 times over 9 seconds every 3 seconds, instead of once after 3 seconds. Maybe adjust the cost by up to 30% to compensate.

The Damage over time would be roughly the same, the visuals would be the same, the usage in PVP would be similar, but it would greatly simplify the PVE rotation. 9 Seconds would put the time in between Elemental Blockade and Winter's Revenge. It would also help with sustain, since shalks are rather costly.

Faint_One

For PVE I think only need to change shalks a bit，decrease instead dmg by a little (for PVP maybe down to 80%)but give it a 6sec dot which dmg around 120% of current，this change will give magden appear 2k more dps that will good enough

Elrond87

What dps can magicka and stamina wardens do in pve

VilniusNastavnik

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

MLGProPlayer

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

VilniusNastavnik

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

The warden was never designed to be a DPS class. It was designed to be a support class that could fill any roll effectively. It was never meant to have the same DPS as a sorc or dk. It's designed around an entirely different playstyle. It's ideal spot would be to be able to hit 30K dps which is enough for just about all content, and lay down CC support.

MLGProPlayer

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

The warden was never designed to be a DPS class. It was designed to be a support class that could fill any roll effectively. It was never meant to have the same DPS as a sorc or dk. It's designed around an entirely different playstyle. It's ideal spot would be to be able to hit 30K dps which is enough for just about all content, and lay down CC support.

You're just making that up. The warden was designed to fill all roles, like every other class in the game.

30k DPS with a little support is not enough to justify taking up a DPS slot. That's why there are virtually no wardens in leader board groups. Their DPS is awful, and their tanking and healing isn't on the same level as DK and templar. There isn't a single warden in the top-100 leader boards on PC/NA for vMoL and vHoF. That should tell you everything you need to know about the class and its current state in PvE.

And by your logic, DK and templar were also designed as support classes. Yet they pull competitive DPS numbers.

Doctordarkspawn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

The warden was never designed to be a DPS class. It was designed to be a support class that could fill any roll effectively. It was never meant to have the same DPS as a sorc or dk. It's designed around an entirely different playstyle. It's ideal spot would be to be able to hit 30K dps which is enough for just about all content, and lay down CC support.

You're just making that up. The warden was designed to fill all roles, like every other class in the game.

30k DPS with a little support is not enough to justify taking up a DPS slot. That's why there are virtually no wardens in leader board groups. Their DPS is awful, and their tanking and healing isn't on the same level as DK and templar.

It's designed to, yes.

Whether or not it accomplishes that roll welll, is another matter.

And yet, if you buff them, you'd break them for PVP because the moves which suck so much in a PVE context, is frequently complained about in a PVP context.

MLGProPlayer

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

The warden was never designed to be a DPS class. It was designed to be a support class that could fill any roll effectively. It was never meant to have the same DPS as a sorc or dk. It's designed around an entirely different playstyle. It's ideal spot would be to be able to hit 30K dps which is enough for just about all content, and lay down CC support.

You're just making that up. The warden was designed to fill all roles, like every other class in the game.

30k DPS with a little support is not enough to justify taking up a DPS slot. That's why there are virtually no wardens in leader board groups. Their DPS is awful, and their tanking and healing isn't on the same level as DK and templar.

It's designed to, yes.

Whether or not it accomplishes that roll welll, is another matter.

And yet, if you buff them, you'd break them for PVP because the moves which suck so much in a PVE context, is frequently complained about in a PVP context.

It wasn't designed to be a support class. Every class is designed to fill every role in this game. Some just fill a specific role better than others.

By your logic, DK and templar were designed to be support classes too. How are they able to pull competitive DPS numbers then?

And the moves that are complained about in PvE (DoTs) have no impact on PvP (where burst is king). Giving Fetcher Infection and Winter's Revenge more damage and giving the warden passives to increase DoT damage would have minimal impact on PvP.

SydneyGrey

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.
Done.

This.

DoctorESO

.

VilniusNastavnik

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

The warden was never designed to be a DPS class. It was designed to be a support class that could fill any roll effectively. It was never meant to have the same DPS as a sorc or dk. It's designed around an entirely different playstyle. It's ideal spot would be to be able to hit 30K dps which is enough for just about all content, and lay down CC support.

You're just making that up. The warden was designed to fill all roles, like every other class in the game.

30k DPS with a little support is not enough to justify taking up a DPS slot. That's why there are virtually no wardens in leader board groups. Their DPS is awful, and their tanking and healing isn't on the same level as DK and templar. There isn't a single warden in the top-100 leader boards on PC/NA for vMoL and vHoF. That should tell you everything you need to know about the class and its current state in PvE.

And by your logic, DK and templar were also designed as support classes. Yet they pull competitive DPS numbers.

They technically are.. DK is the main tank class.. it's skills are literally built around a tank playstyle. Templar is the main heal class.. it's skills are literally built around a healer playstyle. They are the ultimate support classes.

You try pulling 40K+ weaving at 350+ ping. American's cry lag when latency hits 120 ping. 30K is sufficient.

Now I'm not saying Magdens don't need fixing.. they do. I have a cryomancer I want to be competitive.. but that's because Ice skills bring nothing to the table that Fire or Lightning skills don't do better. Buff the ice skills in the Destro tree, and have the Ice staff impact the Winter's Embrace tree of the Warden.

Hell, the reason the other classes are competitive is their stam builds are virtually identical. Excluding 2-3 class skills, the majority of the build is made up of the Bow and DW bars.

If you look into Mag builds, the numbers swap. 2-3 non class skills from the Destro tree, the rest of the skills are class specific and when a class' skills are subpar ya ain't gonna pull the same numbers. They either need a major buff or a niche to fill.

Sabbathius

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.

I would argue Sorc and mDK should be reversed. Because mDK is supposed to be a "stand your ground" class. And that means a lot of AoE damage. Single target damage won't help you stand your ground as you get dogpiled in Cyrodiil, with zero escape tools (Blink, Mirror Image + Cloak, Purge + Heal spam, etc.) Sorc on the other hand should be very high ranged magic single target DPS - blinking around the battlefield and taking out single targets with precision, and harassing them with pets.

It's how it used to be. Remember the original Flames of Oblivion ability that mDKs had? Being anywhere near mDK back then HURT! They could stand their ground and put a chip on their shoulder and yell "Come at me, bro!" and few would dare. Of course the class was also grotesquely overpowered back then, but thematically it was sound. The new Flames of Oblivion being a (random) single target is where ZOS first went wrong with mDK design, and never recovered.

But back on topic of Wardens, I do feel they need a lot of work. Staring with removing all the undodgeable nonsense, and giving them some decent cooldowns that synergize better. Until we start seeing Wardens appear in greater numbers on leaderboards, more tweaks are required.

Doctordarkspawn

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

The warden was never designed to be a DPS class. It was designed to be a support class that could fill any roll effectively. It was never meant to have the same DPS as a sorc or dk. It's designed around an entirely different playstyle. It's ideal spot would be to be able to hit 30K dps which is enough for just about all content, and lay down CC support.

You're just making that up. The warden was designed to fill all roles, like every other class in the game.

30k DPS with a little support is not enough to justify taking up a DPS slot. That's why there are virtually no wardens in leader board groups. Their DPS is awful, and their tanking and healing isn't on the same level as DK and templar.

It's designed to, yes.

Whether or not it accomplishes that roll welll, is another matter.

And yet, if you buff them, you'd break them for PVP because the moves which suck so much in a PVE context, is frequently complained about in a PVP context.

It wasn't designed to be a support class. Every class is designed to fill every role in this game. Some just fill a specific role better than others.

By your logic, DK and templar were designed to be support classes too. How are they able to pull competitive DPS numbers then?

And the moves that are complained about in PvE (DoTs) have no impact on PvP (where burst is king). Giving Fetcher Infection and Winter's Revenge more damage and giving the warden passives to increase DoT damage would have minimal impact on PvP.

See, that whole 'designed to do everything 'mentality is contradicted by both ZOS and the design. DK was blatently designed to be a tank class.

The whole want for all classes to perform all rolls is a recent direction. And a ill advised one at that. It does not work well, as the constant attempts to balance plates in favor of keeping specs viable can attest. If they're going to do it, though, there's ways they can do it better. Warden is just one of the ways where they cant do it better without screwing what little progress they've made.

Not sure why you want me to answer that question though. Dunno what you think my position is.

MLGProPlayer

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

The warden was never designed to be a DPS class. It was designed to be a support class that could fill any roll effectively. It was never meant to have the same DPS as a sorc or dk. It's designed around an entirely different playstyle. It's ideal spot would be to be able to hit 30K dps which is enough for just about all content, and lay down CC support.

You're just making that up. The warden was designed to fill all roles, like every other class in the game.

30k DPS with a little support is not enough to justify taking up a DPS slot. That's why there are virtually no wardens in leader board groups. Their DPS is awful, and their tanking and healing isn't on the same level as DK and templar. There isn't a single warden in the top-100 leader boards on PC/NA for vMoL and vHoF. That should tell you everything you need to know about the class and its current state in PvE.

And by your logic, DK and templar were also designed as support classes. Yet they pull competitive DPS numbers.

They technically are.. DK is the main tank class.. it's skills are literally built around a tank playstyle. Templar is the main heal class.. it's skills are literally built around a healer playstyle. They are the ultimate support classes.

You try pulling 40K+ weaving at 350+ ping. American's cry lag when latency hits 120 ping. 30K is sufficient.

Now I'm not saying Magdens don't need fixing.. they do. I have a cryomancer I want to be competitive.. but that's because Ice skills bring nothing to the table that Fire or Lightning skills don't do better. Buff the ice skills in the Destro tree, and have the Ice staff impact the Winter's Embrace tree of the Warden.

Hell, the reason the other classes are competitive is their stam builds are virtually identical. Excluding 2-3 class skills, the majority of the build is made up of the Bow and DW bars.

If you look into Mag builds, the numbers swap. 2-3 non class skills from the Destro tree, the rest of the skills are class specific and when a class' skills are subpar ya ain't gonna pull the same numbers. They either need a major buff or a niche to fill.

mDK and magplar pull competitive DPS numbers. They've been hit hard by nerfs/bugs, but they STILL hit harder than magden.

fosokles

but they're one of the best on PvP? So?

MLGProPlayer

fosokles wrote: »

but they're one of the best on PvP? So?

PvP is only half the game (and the less popular half at that)...

VilniusNastavnik

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

Was chatting with my guildies yesterday about the current state of magDPS in this game.

Sorc: Should be best AOE burn class (w. full lightning), less single target than a Mag DK but makes up for it with AOE burn. Glorified add clearer.
DK: Should be the best Single target burn class (w. full fire), less AOE than a Mag Sorc but makes up for it in boss fights. RIP MagDK Feb 17/2018.
Wardens: Should be all about the utility and CC. Not as high DPS as the other two, but make up for it with crowd control. Ice staves should not be taunting tools and instead be used to buff slow / freeze. Wardens should be there to assist the Tanks with grouping ads so the other DPS can burn it down. Slowing/freezing everything for a few seconds so the Tank can focus on the big things whilst the Magden locks everything down from range. This is what an Ice mage is suppose to be.

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

The objective of PvE content is to clear it as fast as possible, and the fastest way to clear trials is with 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 8 DPS. The support provided by a DPS needs to be extremely useful to justify using up a DPS slot.

The warden needs more support abilities in general that double up as DPS abilities (like the templar's Rune Focus and Cleansing Ritual abilities; they are both DPS and support abilities). If they deal less DPS than the other classes, they need to make it up somewhere else.

Warden currently doesn't have any DPS abilities with secondary support buffs/debuffs.

The warden was never designed to be a DPS class. It was designed to be a support class that could fill any roll effectively. It was never meant to have the same DPS as a sorc or dk. It's designed around an entirely different playstyle. It's ideal spot would be to be able to hit 30K dps which is enough for just about all content, and lay down CC support.

You're just making that up. The warden was designed to fill all roles, like every other class in the game.

30k DPS with a little support is not enough to justify taking up a DPS slot. That's why there are virtually no wardens in leader board groups. Their DPS is awful, and their tanking and healing isn't on the same level as DK and templar. There isn't a single warden in the top-100 leader boards on PC/NA for vMoL and vHoF. That should tell you everything you need to know about the class and its current state in PvE.

And by your logic, DK and templar were also designed as support classes. Yet they pull competitive DPS numbers.

They technically are.. DK is the main tank class.. it's skills are literally built around a tank playstyle. Templar is the main heal class.. it's skills are literally built around a healer playstyle. They are the ultimate support classes.

You try pulling 40K+ weaving at 350+ ping. American's cry lag when latency hits 120 ping. 30K is sufficient.

Now I'm not saying Magdens don't need fixing.. they do. I have a cryomancer I want to be competitive.. but that's because Ice skills bring nothing to the table that Fire or Lightning skills don't do better. Buff the ice skills in the Destro tree, and have the Ice staff impact the Winter's Embrace tree of the Warden.

Hell, the reason the other classes are competitive is their stam builds are virtually identical. Excluding 2-3 class skills, the majority of the build is made up of the Bow and DW bars.

If you look into Mag builds, the numbers swap. 2-3 non class skills from the Destro tree, the rest of the skills are class specific and when a class' skills are subpar ya ain't gonna pull the same numbers. They either need a major buff or a niche to fill.

mDK and magplar pull competitive DPS numbers. They've been hit hard by nerfs/bugs, but they STILL hit harder than magden.

Pretty sure I just covered this. But what ever let's try and break it down some more.
Wardens for DPS are confined to what..
The Bear which removes the ability to have Rage, and Meteor as your ultis..
Scorch which is a burst instead of dot attack, and takes time to prime..
Swarm which either gets a damage boost on the second weave, or spreads once the enemy dies..
Dive which is slower to travel than Pulse, but is undodgeable.

Ice tree synergises poorly with DPS as it's skills are either support focuses or tanking focuses. Only real DPS is Winter's revenge which correct me if I am wrong, still scales off weapon and not spell crit stats.

Templar: BSpear + EB
DKnight: Ash + EB
Sorc: LL + EB + Pet
Warden: EB + ..... EB.

Removing dive's undodge, make scorch into a DoT and not a burst, and buff Ice skills to bring them more in line with fire and shock.

Chaos2088

Yeah it is a shame that the warden cannot hold its own like the others when it comes to Mag dd PvE, i rarely see any when I run vet dungeons. Ive got two lvled up and geared but got frustrated with it.

SodanTok

So many stupid suggestions here that very obviously wont happen and you all surprised ZoS does not listen to feedback.
Also many stupid reasons why you think they cant balance it.

Warden was supposed to be support class. And they succeeded at that. Except they forgot for offensive support. Thats the thing warden needs. It is not more DPS, it is not single bar bear or (lol) DOT shalks. It needs to have offensive support that makes at least 1 warden if not required, then strongly recommended over another sorc or nb even if they pull bigger numbers.

Thats one thing. Second thing is why is not anything happening? Because they are fine. Wardens are fine. Repeat it. Wardens are fine. This is trully the only thing that really matters. Sure, it would great if wardens were more than fine. But that is not priority. Class not being as optimal as to bude used by top1000 players in DD position is very very far from priorities ZoS set. As long as you can tank, heal and DD warden in the hardest content of the game, they are at safe place, one ZoS is, based on last few patches, very reluctant to poke into.

Using PVP as excuse for no changes is just such weak cop out. They have been nerfing and buffing left and right around both pve and pvp for past 4 years and even if you disagree with some stuff they did... they did them. They do things.They never sit and not to do things because they are 'afraid' lol...

Faulgor

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

You have the majority of people who want their magdens to be l33t DPS like the other classes and won't touch them unless they hit 40K damage. I get it, you like to burn in trials.. but Crowd control is just as important, especially with no AOE taunt for tanks. Swapping that last destro perk to be an enemy debuff like.. When using an Ice staff, skills gain X% chance to inflict major / minor Fracture / Maim / Breach / Vulnerability for Y seconds. A warden tank with a destro staff back bar could proc an elemental ring to debuff everyone around them, and a ranged mag warden could do it from range with pulsar. Problem is, Wardens don't even do this effectively. That's what I want to see. Each element specialised, yet still a viable end game DPS class.

I always found it strange that shock damage was the one that got Minor Vulnerability of the three elements, on top of the 8% AoE damage boost for Lightning Staffs. Inferno has 8% single target and burning, and Frost has ... nothing. If Minor Vulnerability was applied by frost damage (Chilled) instead of shock (Concussed), it would be a worthwhile support element to bring into group content. Minor Maim is absolutely redundant because it's already applied by the tank, and shock damage already has off-balance for group support with Lightning Wall.