Magicka warden is still the worst PvE class in the game

MLGProPlayer

I see DK and templar mains crying about being neglected every patch. But us warden mains dream about reaching DK or templar levels one day. That's how bad the warden is right now, and has been ever since it launched.

This is a class we paid real money for, and ZOS couldn't care less about their performance.

Epicasballs

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Hamburglarjones

Wardens aren't limited to the melee position but yeah they do need a lot of adjusting.

Chilly-McFreeze

There are ways to buff them for PvE without making them more OP in PvP, even without applying different tooltips for both parts (like they somehow did with Negate).

E.g. If they make birds deal a bit lesser dmg on impact but giving them a nice DoT to make up for that, maybe even exeding the current tooltip if you sum both damages up. This would soften the issue of bird spamming in PvP and give them a bit better DPS in PvE.

This is neither an optimal suggestion nor is it well thought through. It's just an example of how things could be balanced.

MLGProPlayer

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.

Done.

Arthg

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This is a class we paid real money for, and ZOS couldn't care less about their performance.

Do you really wanna go down that P2W road?
If not, it's a very weak argument.

Stamdens are the mirror-image of stamDKs - top-dog PvP, bottom of the barrel PvE.
And I'm your mirror-image too, as I main a stamDK in PvP.

I guess we'll have to weather the patches

MLGProPlayer

Arthg wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

This is a class we paid real money for, and ZOS couldn't care less about their performance.

Do you really wanna go down that P2W road?
If not, it's a very weak argument.

Stamdens are the mirror-image of stamDKs - top-dog PvP, bottom of the barrel PvE.
And I'm your mirror-image too, as I main a stamDK in PvP.

I guess we'll have to weather the patches

How is asking for a class I paid for to become viable asking for P2W?

I'm just pointing out that ZOS was quick to charge us money for this class, and now they ignore it.

Epicasballs

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.

Done.

All pets are double bar'd and Wardens should not be the exception. Increasing a wardens sustained pressure while they keep their giant burst combos is a terrible idea. Try harder. Wardens have massive burst, easy access to heals and overloaded buffs. Nerfing their heals in PvP hurts them in PvE as healers for those rare few that do heal as a Warden. Increasing their damage would help them in PvE but make them OP in PvP. Nerfing their buffs for PvP would hurt them as Tanks in PvE. It's not a simple thing to balance both halves and unless ZOS separates the two one side is always going to have it better than the other.

JobooAGS

Epicasballs wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.

Done.

All pets are double bar'd and Wardens should not be the exception. Increasing a wardens sustained pressure while they keep their giant burst combos is a terrible idea. Try harder. Wardens have massive burst, easy access to heals and overloaded buffs. Nerfing their heals in PvP hurts them in PvE as healers for those rare few that do heal as a Warden. Increasing their damage would help them in PvE but make them OP in PvP. Nerfing their buffs for PvP would hurt them as Tanks in PvE. It's not a simple thing to balance both halves and unless ZOS separates the two one side is always going to have it better than the other.

Then how would you buff pve warden while not breaking pvp warden?

Rex-Umbra

Wardens are op in pvp because of burst like sorcs. Maybe increase dots and decrease burst for both classez

JobooAGS

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Wardens are op in pvp because of burst like sorcs. Maybe increase dots and decrease burst for both classez

if dots are increased, why not give flies a stam morph? for bowdens

MLGProPlayer

Epicasballs wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.

Done.

All pets are double bar'd and Wardens should not be the exception. Increasing a wardens sustained pressure while they keep their giant burst combos is a terrible idea. Try harder. Wardens have massive burst, easy access to heals and overloaded buffs. Nerfing their heals in PvP hurts them in PvE as healers for those rare few that do heal as a Warden. Increasing their damage would help them in PvE but make them OP in PvP. Nerfing their buffs for PvP would hurt them as Tanks in PvE. It's not a simple thing to balance both halves and unless ZOS separates the two one side is always going to have it better than the other.

Their burst is only a problem now because it can't be dodged. Make birds dodgeable, and their burst isn't a problem anymore.

Epicasballs

JobooAGS wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.

Done.

All pets are double bar'd and Wardens should not be the exception. Increasing a wardens sustained pressure while they keep their giant burst combos is a terrible idea. Try harder. Wardens have massive burst, easy access to heals and overloaded buffs. Nerfing their heals in PvP hurts them in PvE as healers for those rare few that do heal as a Warden. Increasing their damage would help them in PvE but make them OP in PvP. Nerfing their buffs for PvP would hurt them as Tanks in PvE. It's not a simple thing to balance both halves and unless ZOS separates the two one side is always going to have it better than the other.

Then how would you buff pve warden while not breaking pvp warden?

Start off by separating the two. Total rework of CP.

If this were my Game I would scrap the current CP system and instead move toward a class specific CP system and a Weapon/Armor skill line specific CP system. Have the CP function differently for both PvE and PvP. For class skills you spend CP to augment skills you use to be more powerful, deal more damage, affect more targets, heal for more etc for PvE and have weapon/armor skill CP do something similar. Have CP define the sort of playstyle with your class and weapon/armor selection that you prefer. PvP CP selections would augment skills to have more utility like adding buffs and debuffs to skill when used and increase the affects of buffs and debuffs.

I would also have any weapon scale with your max stats(pen/crit/dmg) and restore resources for heavy attacks based on which stat pool is highest. DW mag set ups could use DW as effectively as stam.

CP as it is now is terrible and generic... it should be used to personalize a playstyle and not used to make up for what your build lacks.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Is mag warden class DOT (the long ice one) still using weapon crit instead of spell crit?

StoicSunbro

So I'm copying my response from another thread.

With my Wardens, I have healed vMoL, off-tanked vSO, and hit 30k DPS. Not an expert, but experienced. Wardens are viable, but not competitive.

The burst damage and undodgeable birds probably need to be looked at for PVP. For PVE here are some tweaks that could help Warden to start:

Bear: On activation, have it give Major Vulnerability, an unused debuff that gives 12% extra damage for 8s. Great reason to raid with one or two warden dps.
This can be dodged or purged in PVP

Leeching Vines: Make it self-cast only. 25s duration. Great for tanks and vMA.

Living Trellis: Instead of at the end, on-cast it heals the ally for 30% of missing health. Not quite breathe of life, still useful.

Expansive Frost Cloak: This morph should additionally affect 12 not 6 allies.

Frozen Gate/Device: It's an aoe, allow it to pull up to 3 targets per portal.

Some passive buffs would be welcome. Wardens using Master Architect / War Machine have low crit, so that's a start.

xaraan

I still think that one thing that might have helped this is not turning Ice Staff into a tanking weapon. Give it some offense and the cold bonus Wardens get could be used to make it useful as a DPS weapon.

They could have added passives into Undaunted to allow a tank player to optionally take them to turn this (or any staff or whatever combination) into tanking gear (and maybe give up the offensive bonuses).

Olupajmibanan

Just to be clear, Magicka Warden PvE may refer to a healer as well, and Wardens make the second best healers. And also the second best tanks. Why empowering their damage then? To be the "hipster" option to any role?

QuebraRegra

Epicasballs wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.

Done.

All pets are double bar'd and Wardens should not be the exception. Increasing a wardens sustained pressure while they keep their giant burst combos is a terrible idea. Try harder. Wardens have massive burst, easy access to heals and overloaded buffs. Nerfing their heals in PvP hurts them in PvE as healers for those rare few that do heal as a Warden. Increasing their damage would help them in PvE but make them OP in PvP. Nerfing their buffs for PvP would hurt them as Tanks in PvE. It's not a simple thing to balance both halves and unless ZOS separates the two one side is always going to have it better than the other.

Not exactly true... the NB SHADE can be summoned single bar and stays for the duration even on a bar switch. Necro set provides the buff no matter the bar, as long as the shade is present. I feel like it's time to mke all pets single bar for some bar diversity.

QuebraRegra

xaraan wrote: »

I still think that one thing that might have helped this is not turning Ice Staff into a tanking weapon. Give it some offense and the cold bonus Wardens get could be used to make it useful as a DPS weapon.

They could have added passives into Undaunted to allow a tank player to optionally take them to turn this (or any staff or whatever combination) into tanking gear (and maybe give up the offensive bonuses).

wanted the ice taunt to be a toggle since they changed it... of course I also wanted the bow to not auto fire, so what do I know?

Doctordarkspawn

Warden remains in that spot where it's just not viable to change anything without making it hilariously broken in PVP.

It is what it is.

Epicasballs

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.

Done.

All pets are double bar'd and Wardens should not be the exception. Increasing a wardens sustained pressure while they keep their giant burst combos is a terrible idea. Try harder. Wardens have massive burst, easy access to heals and overloaded buffs. Nerfing their heals in PvP hurts them in PvE as healers for those rare few that do heal as a Warden. Increasing their damage would help them in PvE but make them OP in PvP. Nerfing their buffs for PvP would hurt them as Tanks in PvE. It's not a simple thing to balance both halves and unless ZOS separates the two one side is always going to have it better than the other.

Not exactly true... the NB SHADE can be summoned single bar and stays for the duration even on a bar switch. Necro set provides the buff no matter the bar, as long as the shade is present. I feel like it's time to mke all pets single bar for some bar diversity.

Shades are more for debuff and utility they're not permanent. Wardens have the netch that acts the exact same way... used for the buffs. Making shades permanent would render at least one morph useless and if the netch were permanent it'd be busted OP. Having a permanent pet is a trade off and they deserve to be double bar'd. Don't be ridiculous. If we're making all toggles single bar let's add guard to the single bar list... because that'd be fair and balanced.

Anhedonie

Rework shalks, turn it into dot, make birds hit harder, but make them dodgeable, fix ice aoe, so it uses spell crit instead of weapon crit.

Integral1900

To be read in epic movie advert voice

“The Warden... a pvp class in a 95% pve game”

SinNoAria

Unfortunately, many of the issues could be solved with a separation of PvP and PvE.

Unfortunately, ZoS is too lazy to do that. Mixing PvE and PvP has rarely worked well except in games that are specifically designed to balance the two.

Toc de Malsvi

Shouldn't need the bear to be up 24/7. Summon the bear just like you would the Atronarch for Sorcs. Buff the damage during its uptime. Then you can single bar it.

WuffyCerulei

People need to realize they're talking about magicka wardens in PvE specifically. Not the stam wardens in pvp. Even in pvp, magdens aren't as strong as people think they are.
Magden DPS is awful, unless you use Master Architect with the bear. That set requires farming and whatnot, so even getting the optimal gear is a pain. Winter's Revenge is a weak ground dot compared to other class dots. Deep Fissure is expensive to use and sustain with. Cliffracer is hard to weave with.

BuddyAces

Epicasballs wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Wardens are beast in PvP. If they buffed them for PvE it would break PvP. ZOS refuses to separate PvE and PvP from one another so this is just how it is. Trying to balance both together is a cute idea but it's never worked for any other MMO and it's not working for this one either.

Increase damage of bird + make it dodgeable, increase dot damage, and make bear single bar.

Done.

All pets are double bar'd and Wardens should not be the exception. Increasing a wardens sustained pressure while they keep their giant burst combos is a terrible idea. Try harder. Wardens have massive burst, easy access to heals and overloaded buffs. Nerfing their heals in PvP hurts them in PvE as healers for those rare few that do heal as a Warden. Increasing their damage would help them in PvE but make them OP in PvP. Nerfing their buffs for PvP would hurt them as Tanks in PvE. It's not a simple thing to balance both halves and unless ZOS separates the two one side is always going to have it better than the other.

Then how would you buff pve warden while not breaking pvp warden?

Start off by separating the two. Total rework of CP.

If this were my Game I would scrap the current CP system and instead move toward a class specific CP system and a Weapon/Armor skill line specific CP system. Have the CP function differently for both PvE and PvP. For class skills you spend CP to augment skills you use to be more powerful, deal more damage, affect more targets, heal for more etc for PvE and have weapon/armor skill CP do something similar. Have CP define the sort of playstyle with your class and weapon/armor selection that you prefer. PvP CP selections would augment skills to have more utility like adding buffs and debuffs to skill when used and increase the affects of buffs and debuffs.

I would also have any weapon scale with your max stats(pen/crit/dmg) and restore resources for heavy attacks based on which stat pool is highest. DW mag set ups could use DW as effectively as stam.

CP as it is now is terrible and generic... it should be used to personalize a playstyle and not used to make up for what your build lacks.

*insert random applause gif*

MLGProPlayer

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Warden remains in that spot where it's just not viable to change anything without making it hilariously broken in PVP.

It is what it is.

Nonsense. The only reason warden is considered OP by some in PvP is the undodgeable cliff racer. Make that ability dodgeable, and you can balance the warden however you like. It's not a hard problem to solve.

BlazingDynamo

Anything that comes with a DLC or Expansion shouldn't be considered "pay to win". It's a frigging expansion. If they were selling the Warden in the crown store that would be a different story. It comes with the DLC it's apart of the DLC please just buff the Warden and anyone who screams pay to win again just permaban them.

Thank you.

arkansas_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Warden remains in that spot where it's just not viable to change anything without making it hilariously broken in PVP.

It is what it is.

Nonsense. The only reason warden is considered OP by some in PvP is the undodgeable cliff racer. Make that ability dodgeable, and you can balance the warden however you like. It's not a hard problem to solve.

Not really. The meta PVP Warden build is a stam Warden that runs Dizzying Swing for it's spammable over Cutting Dive, because Dizzying stuns and does more damage. The thing that makes Warden strong is it's passives and that it gets an AOE burst skill (Subterranean Assault) that they can combo with world and weapon skills: an AOE burst ulti (Dawnbreaker), and an AOE execute that restores ulti (Reverse Slice with Asylum 2H.)

(It also gets an anti-ranged shield that gives one of the strongest buffs in the game that they can keep up indefinitely because the shield also restores the resource that it cost to cast it, but that's besides the point)

MLGProPlayer

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Warden remains in that spot where it's just not viable to change anything without making it hilariously broken in PVP.

It is what it is.

Nonsense. The only reason warden is considered OP by some in PvP is the undodgeable cliff racer. Make that ability dodgeable, and you can balance the warden however you like. It's not a hard problem to solve.

Not really. The meta PVP Warden build is a stam Warden that runs Dizzying Swing for it's spammable over Cutting Dive, because Dizzying stuns and does more damage. The thing that makes Warden strong is it's passives and that it gets an AOE burst skill (Subterranean Assault) that they can combo with world and weapon skills: an AOE burst ulti (Dawnbreaker), and an AOE execute that restores ulti (Reverse Slice with Asylum 2H.)

(It also gets an anti-ranged shield that gives one of the strongest buffs in the game that they can keep up indefinitely because the shield also restores the resource that it cost to cast it, but that's besides the point)

That's stamina warden. We're talking about magicka warden in this thread. They have separate morphs.