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A buff to Khajiit?

  • Twohothardware
    Twohothardware
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    If you give Khajiit a stamina crit damage buff, this is what's going to happen:

    1. Three months later Stamina Nightblade skills will eat a damage nerf hard, as their abilities synergize the most readily with crit and they start doing obscene damage against crit resist builds in Cyrodiil.
    2. Four to six months after that, everyone suddenly realizes why all the all the stamDKs, stamSorcs, and stamdens hit like freight trains stack on top of airliners stacked on top of asteroids.
    3. Queue, nearly a year hence, a blanket stamina damage nerf that ironically hits non-Khajiit stamina DD races the hardest, as ZOS is unlikely to directly nerf a buff they previously gave, as doing so would be to admit an egregious mistake.

    There's a reason why everyone in the know is making an Argonian now and Khajiit is nearly the bottom of the list choice even for a Nightblade after Argonian, Redguard, and Wood Elf.

    Khajiit was not only nerfed on the sustain side with all the changes last year but was also nerfed on the Crit side by the changes to the Thief/Shadow Mundus, removal of Crit from proc sets, and the continued increase in CP allowing players to run higher Impen. Sustain is what matters most in PvP now, not a couple extra percent in Stamina or Crit Chance, that's why Argonian is so strong despite having no real damage boosting passive.
    Edited by Twohothardware on February 1, 2018 2:17AM
  • IZZEFlameLash
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    just give khajiits spell crit and maybe a passive 3-5% dodge chance and/or 6% hp

    We want Stamina, not Health. Khajiit isn't a Tanking Race.

    with more hp, you can slot more into stam or mag. Khajiit in my view is the crit race and therefore focus on crit. Boosting hp instead of mag and stam will reinforce this while giving khajiits a % modifier.

    Edit: If you want, increase the crit values to 10% each

    As if we don't put all 64 points into Stamina or Magicka in this game. It's been this way ever since the cap removal. You are seriously gimping yourself by not putting all attribute points into one specific resource. And extra health belongs to tank prone races. Khajiit is neither a DPS or a tank race right now.
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    SodanTok wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.

    But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.

    What do you mean. Redguard is currently THE best race for in combat sustain and in combat damage. PVE and PVP. Even if Khajiit got more damge to at least match redguard, redguard would still have sustain. If Khajiit got even more damage to outdamage redguard, there would be still benefit to play redguard for the sustain. And they would still be best in PVP.

    Many people would disagree, including myself, about Redguard being BiS for PvP. It's not all about combat damage.

    I was responding to OPs suggestions in which it seemed to me that they would make Khajiit BiS for stam DPS builds and I found that a bit troubling to me. That's it. I play end-game content on my wood-elf stamblade because I PvE and PvP on that character and I manage just fine. Yeah I could be a bit better but that's the sacrifice I make to have the versatility of being effective in PvP and PvE. I understand wanting the Khajiit health passives changed to something else but I don't think we need to get carried away with it either. There can be a middle-ground perhaps.

    From experience, most people looking down on redguard in PVP are the same people that think 10% regen on 2k stam regen build means 200 more regen! :D When you truly put it up to math, there are very few situations where redguard does not win damage and sustain wise. Obviously there are the 'not everything is about damage' cases where different races like Orc come better.

    Not saying redguard is bad in PvP, rather my point was that people want to do many different things with their PvP builds and that may require a specific race like orc as you mentioned. Also I know a couple people who only PvP with Argonians for the option passive. Unlike PvE, There are disagreements to what is truly best in Open world PvP was my point regarding redguards and PvP

    And Redguard is THE GO-TO race for both PvP and PvE and Redguard was still contending over top DPS spot in PvE when Khajiit was great for PvE DPS.
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  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    10% weapon and spell crit, 10% mag recovery on top of their 10% stam recovery and 20% health recovery, 6% hp or a 3-5% dodge chance and khajiits will be fine
  • waitwhat
    waitwhat
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    If you give Khajiit a stamina crit damage buff, this is what's going to happen:

    1. Three months later Stamina Nightblade skills will eat a damage nerf hard, as their abilities synergize the most readily with crit and they start doing obscene damage against crit resist builds in Cyrodiil.
    2. Four to six months after that, everyone suddenly realizes why all the all the stamDKs, stamSorcs, and stamdens hit like freight trains stack on top of airliners stacked on top of asteroids.
    3. Queue, nearly a year hence, a blanket stamina damage nerf that ironically hits non-Khajiit stamina DD races the hardest, as ZOS is unlikely to directly nerf a buff they previously gave, as doing so would be to admit an egregious mistake.

    There's a reason why everyone in the know is making an Argonian now and Khajiit is nearly the bottom of the list choice even for a Nightblade after Argonian, Redguard, and Wood Elf.

    Khajiit was not only nerfed on the sustain side with all the changes last year but was also nerfed on the Crit side by the changes to the Thief/Shadow Mundus, removal of Crit from proc sets, and the continued increase in CP allowing players to run higher Impen. Sustain is what matters most in PvP now, not a couple extra percent in Stamina or Crit Chance, that's why Argonian is so strong despite having no real damage boosting passive.

    This is further evidence of why my suggestion for doubling the stamina recovery passive on khajiit, and leaving their health sustain passive alone, is a great idea, even more so than extra crit damage or switching out health recovery for max stam.
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  • Jhalin
    Jhalin
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    Buff up the Stam Recov to 20%, add Crit Damage on top of the Weapon Critical, and voila! Now they're the crit heavy, stam dps race they were designed to be.
  • JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    just give khajiits spell crit and maybe a passive 3-5% dodge chance and/or 6% hp

    We want Stamina, not Health. Khajiit isn't a Tanking Race.

    with more hp, you can slot more into stam or mag. Khajiit in my view is the crit race and therefore focus on crit. Boosting hp instead of mag and stam will reinforce this while giving khajiits a % modifier.

    Edit: If you want, increase the crit values to 10% each

    As if we don't put all 64 points into Stamina or Magicka in this game. It's been this way ever since the cap removal. You are seriously gimping yourself by not putting all attribute points into one specific resource. And extra health belongs to tank prone races. Khajiit is neither a DPS or a tank race right now.



    At times it is a good idea for you to have a few extra points into hp, especially when ebon is not in group and when you have minimal to no self heals. A dead dps does far less dps than a dps that has a few points into hp and survived a 1-2 shot.
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    The solution to Nord is to change percentage-based damage reduction to numeric physical resistance buff equal to Breton spell resistance buff. This one change adjusts the mitigation equation enough to make the nord a quite worthwhile tanking race by reducing the brutal diminishing returns in damage mitigation such that the Nord can devote CP, sets, and slots to goals other than physical resistances.

    As a khajiit stamblade main, the most balanced 'rebalancing' in my opinion would be to raise the stamina recovery bonus to 20%, and keep all the other passives the same. That health recovery does have use for brawlers in pvp and Off-tank DDs in PvE (where defile reductions should always be purged by the healer immediately after application anyway). This rebalance scheme preservers the khajiit's niche of critical damage while lessening what is perceived as their core weakness (sustain) without crowding out the races that specialize in sustain.

    This post is ridiculous. It might make some minor level of sense if Nords had more stam power.
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  • Supernatural
    Supernatural
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    I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:
    Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.

    Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?

    I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child

    Lofty goal? I am simply asking for a buff which will make the race playable again, because right now, from a pure end-game/min-maxing point of view, Khajiit is not looking good at all. There is no instance where Khajiit excels, every race must excel at something. that is a fact. Khajiit used to be the best race for stamina DPS in trials back in the days, but ZoS kept nerfing it over and over that it is now losing in every shape and form to redguard, and in PvP I have already said it, it is the worse race to pick in PvP for a stamina build. Even Nord which you mentioned has much better utility. 6% Max stamina, 9% max health and 6% damage mitigation are useful passives. I am not saying Nord couldn't use some buffing, it definetely could, and the same goes for races like Breton and maybe Bosmer.

    No, you're asking to be BiS.

    Which is fine, ask away. But don't sell it as "simply a buff" and LOL don't even try to write they're in any way in worse shape than Nords.

    My statement that Nord has more utility than a Khajiit is purely PvP-based. Both have 20% health regeneration, so they negate each other on that. 8% crit in PvP, as I already mentioned, is very weak, not only due to being heavily countered by impenetrable, resistant etc, but also by the fact that PvP is so bursty that an 8% extra crit is barely noticable. And then you have the lackluster stealthy and nimble passives, which bring almost nothing to the table. Compare to the extra flat stats and damage mitigation that Nord gets. You still think Khajiit is better? Again, I am not saying Nord could not use some buffing. It is overall weaker when compared to other stamina races.

    Yes.

    I'll take 8% crit every day and any day. The reason I run around with 3000 Impen is because crit is so damn strong. And I don't care how much impen you run, it doesn't effect my heals.

    That 6% mitigation isn't 6% of the damage on a tooltip. It's 6% after Battlespirit, CP mitigation, Protection buffs, Minor maim, etc. In short, it's 6% of a tiny number already reduced and thus my Nord is pretty much taking the same damage as your Khajiit. Without the 8% crit.

    Nord is overall weaker to every race in the game. Khajiits aspire to be BiS. Nords aspire not to suck.

    Well, that is your opinion. I'd take an extra 2-3k extra health and stamina ANYTIME over 8% crit in PvP. The extra health will give you extra survivability, and if you go below 22-23k health in Cyrodiil nowadays you are not gonna have a very good time wth all the disgustingess that PvP is plagued with. And the extra stamina will increase your damage and heals consistently unlike the crit which is a chance, and even if some of your attacks crit, again, they will be mitigated by crit resistance. An extra 3k stamina equals to about 300 weapon damage, this is nothing to laugh at. And since Heavy Armor is optimal and completely crashes medium armor in the current meta of PvP, the stam regen khajiit gets becomes very weak, since Heavy Armor builds run such low recovery.
    Edited by Supernatural on February 1, 2018 6:32AM
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  • Jawasa
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    Lol most ideas here are a joke. Just trying to downplay khajit and then go suggest insane buffs like 10% more stam regen and crit dmg.
  • Feanor
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    Interesting convo. The real question is though: Does a new class come with the new chapter so I can finally create a Khajiit? ;)
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  • Asardes
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    just give khajiits spell crit and maybe a passive 3-5% dodge chance and/or 6% hp

    We want Stamina, not Health. Khajiit isn't a Tanking Race.

    Sure, but a well-tuned max HP buff would allow Khajiit to safely run 7 pieces of medium armor, which (compared to a typical 6/1 setup) is another +4% stamina regen, +1.5% weapon critical, and -2% stamina cost at the expense of 2% max stamina.

    Same reason that Imperial is actually a better stam DPS race than a lot of people think it is.

    Yep, Imperial, Orc, and even Nord all benefit from the health bonus because you can run Dubious Camoran Throne and still have 16-17K health which is about 18.5-19.5K health with Ebon and Minor Toughness from Warhorn. A Wood Elf or Khajiit would fall be at just 14.5K with that drink, or 16.5K with those buffs, which is really dangerous in harder content. Of course Redguard will be able to sustain even with blue stamina+health food anyway due to Adrenaline Rush and be at 16K, just like the former so it will not be in any danger. Khajiit is really optimal only for DK, since sustain is not an issue and they can run blue food, and also the stamina pool is not that important, with heavy attacks that make a larger chunk of the parse than other classes scaling mostly on weapon damage. Also it may get a pass on NB since you can get about ~180 effective stamina recovery from Leeching Strikes and weapon critical is worth more due to Hemorrhage passive. On any other stamina class Redguard will always be better.
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  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    I honestly wouldn't be opposed to just a flat increase to 10%. Thanks for the informative post.

    But the health passives while not the best aren't TOTALLY useless and you need to account for that a bit. Yeah they could probably use a little something.

    On a scale of 0-100, with 0 being "totally useless" and 100 being "best passive ever man," the health regen passive on Khajiit is maybe a 1 or 2 in PvE. Sure, there's some minor utility there but it's hardly even worth mentioning.
    Asardes wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    ArchMikem wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    just give khajiits spell crit and maybe a passive 3-5% dodge chance and/or 6% hp

    We want Stamina, not Health. Khajiit isn't a Tanking Race.

    Sure, but a well-tuned max HP buff would allow Khajiit to safely run 7 pieces of medium armor, which (compared to a typical 6/1 setup) is another +4% stamina regen, +1.5% weapon critical, and -2% stamina cost at the expense of 2% max stamina.

    Same reason that Imperial is actually a better stam DPS race than a lot of people think it is.

    Yep, Imperial, Orc, and even Nord all benefit from the health bonus because you can run Dubious Camoran Throne and still have 16-17K health which is about 18.5-19.5K health with Ebon and Minor Toughness from Warhorn. A Wood Elf or Khajiit would fall be at just 14.5K with that drink, or 16.5K with those buffs, which is really dangerous in harder content. Of course Redguard will be able to sustain even with blue stamina+health food anyway due to Adrenaline Rush and be at 16K, just like the former so it will not be in any danger. Khajiit is really optimal only for DK, since sustain is not an issue and they can run blue food, and also the stamina pool is not that important, with heavy attacks that make a larger chunk of the parse than other classes scaling mostly on weapon damage. Also it may get a pass on NB since you can get about ~180 effective stamina recovery from Leeching Strikes and weapon critical is worth more due to Hemorrhage passive. On any other stamina class Redguard will always be better.

    IMO Redguard is massively superior on stamblades right now.

    It's virtually impossible to sustain an effective rotation without using Vicious Ophidian on a Khajiit. Even with Vampirism and Stormfist. With a Redguard you're free to run Hunding's + War Machine or Mechanical Acuity + War Machine or something like that, but on a Khajiit VO is essentially required, which really limits your options, especially since combining it with War Machine leads to a redundant 3-piece bonus.
  • Lynx7386
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    Technically khajiit should have the most versatility in their passive skills considering they have 16 different subspecies. Everyone wants to call khajiit a stamina dps only race, without looking at the fact that alfiq and ohmes khajiit are extremely good with magic, or that Cathay khajiit are massive and more than sturdy enough to be tanks and frontline fighters. The idea that they should only fill a stamina dps role is borderline stereotyping.

    Imo the crit passive needs to go back to adding both spell and weapon crit. The passive is based on khajiit keen eyes being able to spot weaknesses, it has nothing to do with their claws. Weak points work just as well for spells as for daggers or bows.

    The recovery passive should also add 10% magicka recovery in addition to the 10% stamina and 20% health recovery.

    The stealth passive should also increase detection range in addition to reducing range at which you are detected in order to represent khajiit keen senses.

    None of those changes would overpower the race, only open them up to magicka builds and give more versatility.
    Edited by Lynx7386 on February 1, 2018 5:59PM
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  • LiquidPony
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    waitwhat wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    I think this somewhat misses the point that the khajiit version of the stamsorc can get to the "identical 60%" without putting as much investment into crit, therefore allowing them to make themselves unidentical with investments into weapon damage, penetration, or bleed (say by swapping out a dagger for something else, or wearing a set with different 2, 3, or 4 piece bonuses). Also, the calculations change when we introduce factors like the shadow or piercing into those equations.

    The 'identical' Khajiit stamsorc may slightly underperform the 'identical' Redguard stamsorc, but that speaks more to the khajiit stamsorc being built sub-optimally in order to be identical.

    @waitwhat

    I don't really follow what you're trying to say here.

    No one really uses The Shadow and I don't see what Piercing, which grants physical penetration, has to do with a comparison of Khajiit weapon critical bonuses to Redguard max stamina bonuses.

    I think you've missed the point altogether: the "otherwise identical" builds are at 60% crit before factoring in racial passives. The Khajiit build would have 68% crit, the Redguard would have 60%.

    You are optimally going to run VO + Automaton or Hunding's + Automaton or Sunderflame + Automaton or something along those lines regardless of race. Set selection is largely dictated by 5-piece bonuses and group needs, not min-maxing the 2-4-piece bonuses which are mostly interchangeable. There are no set bonuses that increase critical damage. You are optimally going to run The Warrior regardless of race, because it will outperform The Shadow (which is the only Mundus that would specifically benefit Khajiit) in almost all circumstances.

    The Shadow (7 x Legendary Divines) = +13.73% critical damage
    The Warrior (7 x Legendary Divines) = +363 weapon damage

    Using the starting values from above, The Shadow will grant roughly a 5.4% DPS increase for the Redguard and a 5.9% increase for the Khajiit.

    The Warrior will grant roughly a 6.5% DPS increase either way.

    Now of course, monster set options might be different (say, Khajiit might need to run Stormfist whereas Redguards may be able to use Velidreth), and we might choose dagger/dagger versus dagger/axe, and CP might be allocated differently.

    But in the end, the 10% max stam boost is at least as good as 8% crit, and often better ... just from a pure DPS perspective; when factoring in the additional utility and sustain of having a significantly larger stamina pool, the 10% max stam bonus wins every time. Khajiit get 10% stamina regen, Redguards get 9%. The third Khajiit passive is useless in PvE; the third Reguard passive is effectively ~158 stamina regen.

    IMO not hard to see at all that Redguard is easily the better choice in almost all PvE scenarios.
    Edited by LiquidPony on February 1, 2018 6:08PM
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    I think this somewhat misses the point that the khajiit version of the stamsorc can get to the "identical 60%" without putting as much investment into crit, therefore allowing them to make themselves unidentical with investments into weapon damage, penetration, or bleed (say by swapping out a dagger for something else, or wearing a set with different 2, 3, or 4 piece bonuses). Also, the calculations change when we introduce factors like the shadow or piercing into those equations.

    The 'identical' Khajiit stamsorc may slightly underperform the 'identical' Redguard stamsorc, but that speaks more to the khajiit stamsorc being built sub-optimally in order to be identical.

    @waitwhat

    I don't really follow what you're trying to say here.

    No one really uses The Shadow and I don't see what Piercing, which grants physical penetration, has to do with a comparison of Khajiit weapon critical bonuses to Redguard max stamina bonuses.

    I think you've missed the point altogether: the "otherwise identical" builds are at 60% crit before factoring in racial passives. The Khajiit build would have 68% crit, the Redguard would have 60%.

    You are optimally going to run VO + Automaton or Hunding's + Automaton or Sunderflame + Automaton or something along those lines regardless of race. Set selection is largely dictated by 5-piece bonuses and group needs, not min-maxing the 2-4-piece bonuses which are mostly interchangeable. There are no set bonuses that increase critical damage. You are optimally going to run The Warrior regardless of race, because it will outperform The Shadow (which is the only Mundus that would specifically benefit Khajiit) in almost all circumstances.

    The Shadow (7 x Legendary Divines) = +13.73% critical damage
    The Warrior (7 x Legendary Divines) = +363 weapon damage

    Using the starting values from above, The Shadow will grant roughly a 5.4% DPS increase for the Redguard and a 5.9% increase for the Khajiit.

    The Warrior will grant roughly a 6.5% DPS increase either way.

    Now of course, monster set options might be different (say, Khajiit might need to run Stormfist whereas Redguards may be able to use Velidreth), and we might choose dagger/dagger versus dagger/axe, and CP might be allocated differently.

    But in the end, the 10% max stam boost is at least as good as 8% crit, and often better ... just from a pure DPS perspective; when factoring in the additional utility and sustain of having a significantly larger stamina pool, the 10% max stam bonus wins every time. Khajiit get 10% stamina regen, Redguards get 9%. The third Khajiit passive is useless in PvE; the third Reguard passive is effectively ~158 stamina regen.

    IMO not hard to see at all that Redguard is easily the better choice in almost all PvE scenarios.

    Give these to khajiit and you will see more of a balance between the 2 and maybe some balance with altmer. 2% more weapon crit (10% total), 10% spell crit, 10% mag recovery, and 6% max hp
  • Lynx7386
    Lynx7386
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    I think this somewhat misses the point that the khajiit version of the stamsorc can get to the "identical 60%" without putting as much investment into crit, therefore allowing them to make themselves unidentical with investments into weapon damage, penetration, or bleed (say by swapping out a dagger for something else, or wearing a set with different 2, 3, or 4 piece bonuses). Also, the calculations change when we introduce factors like the shadow or piercing into those equations.

    The 'identical' Khajiit stamsorc may slightly underperform the 'identical' Redguard stamsorc, but that speaks more to the khajiit stamsorc being built sub-optimally in order to be identical.

    @waitwhat

    I don't really follow what you're trying to say here.

    No one really uses The Shadow and I don't see what Piercing, which grants physical penetration, has to do with a comparison of Khajiit weapon critical bonuses to Redguard max stamina bonuses.

    I think you've missed the point altogether: the "otherwise identical" builds are at 60% crit before factoring in racial passives. The Khajiit build would have 68% crit, the Redguard would have 60%.

    You are optimally going to run VO + Automaton or Hunding's + Automaton or Sunderflame + Automaton or something along those lines regardless of race. Set selection is largely dictated by 5-piece bonuses and group needs, not min-maxing the 2-4-piece bonuses which are mostly interchangeable. There are no set bonuses that increase critical damage. You are optimally going to run The Warrior regardless of race, because it will outperform The Shadow (which is the only Mundus that would specifically benefit Khajiit) in almost all circumstances.

    The Shadow (7 x Legendary Divines) = +13.73% critical damage
    The Warrior (7 x Legendary Divines) = +363 weapon damage

    Using the starting values from above, The Shadow will grant roughly a 5.4% DPS increase for the Redguard and a 5.9% increase for the Khajiit.

    The Warrior will grant roughly a 6.5% DPS increase either way.

    Now of course, monster set options might be different (say, Khajiit might need to run Stormfist whereas Redguards may be able to use Velidreth), and we might choose dagger/dagger versus dagger/axe, and CP might be allocated differently.

    But in the end, the 10% max stam boost is at least as good as 8% crit, and often better ... just from a pure DPS perspective; when factoring in the additional utility and sustain of having a significantly larger stamina pool, the 10% max stam bonus wins every time. Khajiit get 10% stamina regen, Redguards get 9%. The third Khajiit passive is useless in PvE; the third Reguard passive is effectively ~158 stamina regen.

    IMO not hard to see at all that Redguard is easily the better choice in almost all PvE scenarios.

    Give these to khajiit and you will see more of a balance between the 2 and maybe some balance with altmer. 2% more weapon crit (10% total), 10% spell crit, 10% mag recovery, and 6% max hp

    at least then khajiit magicka, tank, and hybrid builds would all see an improvement, instead of being forced to be a subpar stamina build.
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Longstride
    Longstride
    ✭✭✭
    Racial balance needs to happen. The difference between races should not be more than 2-3%. The current situation goes against ZOS's core philosophy of play how you want.

    Not really. The root of this philosophy is grounded in the old, true MMOs as well as in the Elder Scrolls Games themselves. Neither of which had classes in the WoW sense of the term. However, race has always been a cornerstone of both. Every race should bring something unique to each class, but the races ought not be balanced against one another.
  • dodgehopper_ESO
    dodgehopper_ESO
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    ✭✭✭
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    Technically khajiit should have the most versatility in their passive skills considering they have 16 different subspecies. Everyone wants to call khajiit a stamina dps only race, without looking at the fact that alfiq and ohmes khajiit are extremely good with magic, or that Cathay khajiit are massive and more than sturdy enough to be tanks and frontline fighters. The idea that they should only fill a stamina dps role is borderline stereotyping.

    Imo the crit passive needs to go back to adding both spell and weapon crit. The passive is based on khajiit keen eyes being able to spot weaknesses, it has nothing to do with their claws. Weak points work just as well for spells as for daggers or bows.

    The recovery passive should also add 10% magicka recovery in addition to the 10% stamina and 20% health recovery.

    The stealth passive should also increase detection range in addition to reducing range at which you are detected in order to represent khajiit keen senses.

    None of those changes would overpower the race, only open them up to magicka builds and give more versatility.

    Thematically I don't think Recovery is what Khajiit are about. They are pretty athletic as a whole. The Khajiit that have been playable races for the last 15 years at least have been athletic. The bonuses you recommend are pretty hardcore and would likely bite into some of the cooler parts of the race now (like Carnage or Stealth). I would much rather see the Thieves Guild skill line offer an active skill for cloak. In terms of pvp balance I'd then like to see the Flare actually be significantly more useful. These are just my thoughts on the matter. It might even make sense to give Khajiit +Health with their Healthy Recovery based on the theme they dropped on them in ESO. I get the sense that oddly enough Khajiit were meant to be the 'Tanky Race' for the AD. If that's the case a health buff would have been in order and would not cause all the other stamina races to freak out about having 6-10% Stamina and wicked-powerful Carnage.
    US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
    US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
    US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
    US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
    US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
    US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
    EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
    EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
    <And plenty more>
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lynx7386 wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    I think this somewhat misses the point that the khajiit version of the stamsorc can get to the "identical 60%" without putting as much investment into crit, therefore allowing them to make themselves unidentical with investments into weapon damage, penetration, or bleed (say by swapping out a dagger for something else, or wearing a set with different 2, 3, or 4 piece bonuses). Also, the calculations change when we introduce factors like the shadow or piercing into those equations.

    The 'identical' Khajiit stamsorc may slightly underperform the 'identical' Redguard stamsorc, but that speaks more to the khajiit stamsorc being built sub-optimally in order to be identical.

    @waitwhat

    I don't really follow what you're trying to say here.

    No one really uses The Shadow and I don't see what Piercing, which grants physical penetration, has to do with a comparison of Khajiit weapon critical bonuses to Redguard max stamina bonuses.

    I think you've missed the point altogether: the "otherwise identical" builds are at 60% crit before factoring in racial passives. The Khajiit build would have 68% crit, the Redguard would have 60%.

    You are optimally going to run VO + Automaton or Hunding's + Automaton or Sunderflame + Automaton or something along those lines regardless of race. Set selection is largely dictated by 5-piece bonuses and group needs, not min-maxing the 2-4-piece bonuses which are mostly interchangeable. There are no set bonuses that increase critical damage. You are optimally going to run The Warrior regardless of race, because it will outperform The Shadow (which is the only Mundus that would specifically benefit Khajiit) in almost all circumstances.

    The Shadow (7 x Legendary Divines) = +13.73% critical damage
    The Warrior (7 x Legendary Divines) = +363 weapon damage

    Using the starting values from above, The Shadow will grant roughly a 5.4% DPS increase for the Redguard and a 5.9% increase for the Khajiit.

    The Warrior will grant roughly a 6.5% DPS increase either way.

    Now of course, monster set options might be different (say, Khajiit might need to run Stormfist whereas Redguards may be able to use Velidreth), and we might choose dagger/dagger versus dagger/axe, and CP might be allocated differently.

    But in the end, the 10% max stam boost is at least as good as 8% crit, and often better ... just from a pure DPS perspective; when factoring in the additional utility and sustain of having a significantly larger stamina pool, the 10% max stam bonus wins every time. Khajiit get 10% stamina regen, Redguards get 9%. The third Khajiit passive is useless in PvE; the third Reguard passive is effectively ~158 stamina regen.

    IMO not hard to see at all that Redguard is easily the better choice in almost all PvE scenarios.

    Give these to khajiit and you will see more of a balance between the 2 and maybe some balance with altmer. 2% more weapon crit (10% total), 10% spell crit, 10% mag recovery, and 6% max hp

    at least then khajiit magicka, tank, and hybrid builds would all see an improvement, instead of being forced to be a subpar stamina build.

    Boosting the weapon crit to 10% or even 12% will beat out the 10% max stam bonus redguards and imperials have, and the spell crit will allow magicka kitties to have a bone to play with. The hp is so that such dpses will be more surviable without losing stam, and trust me, you will be losing stam if you use dubious cameron throne as sustain on top of the stam loss from blue food. With these changes, I believe that kitties will be in a better place either for stamina or magicka
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    Argonian forever
  • Twohothardware
    Twohothardware
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    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP because Wood Elf has the 21% Recovery and with 9% max Stam would deal the same or more damage as 8% crit against Impen wearing players.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff though as I think all races outside of Redguard and Argonian need one because the race meta has become stale.
    Edited by Twohothardware on February 1, 2018 9:15PM
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    ✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Khajiit are just fine, I don't see why you'd want to change anything, except maybe make the crit bonus apply to spells as well (why not?).

    Give them 6% stamina on top of everything and I see no reason not to run Khajiit in PvE, it becomes meta race for everyone - hardly ideal. My stamina DK is khajiit and trust me, there's no resource management issues there.

    In PvP khajiit is fine, that 8% Crit Chance is good for both damage and healing (worth atleast 4% "healing done") and the 20% health regen is also powerful, especially if you run Troll King (and why wouldn't you, not running that set is a mistake considering how broken it is - but that's a topic for another day).

    So compared to Wood Elf for example you're trading 11% stam regen 6% max stam & poison/disease resistance for: 20% health regen, 8% crit.


    Sounds fair to me.

    You don't have any sustain issues on your DK and pull high DPS with Heavy Attacks, this current patch. Next patch with the off-Balance changes, HA builds won't be on the top of the world anymore, and that means that sustain will get much tougher for people aspiring to do high DPS, since you'll have to run a "mixed attack build".

    Plus Bloodspawn is a better set since it gives you sustain, defense and offense. No reason not to run Troll King over that.
    Edited by Izaki on February 1, 2018 9:05PM
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Khajiit's biggest drawback is in sustain so if it's going to be the hardest DPS race to sustain on it needs to have clearly the higher damage potential which you don't get if you give the same max Stamina buff to Wood Elf as well. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff as I think all races outside of Redguard, Argonian, and maybe Dark Elf and Orc need a race update to get them equally competitive but Khajiit is in worse shape due to sustain and needs something that addresses that.

    Some races suck at sustain.
    Dunmer, Nord, Orcs and Imperial have 0 real sustain racials (don't count Red Diamond), in which Khajiit is already ahead of the curb with their 10% stamina regen. Even if their regen was buffed to 20% it would still be left behind entirely since both Redguard and Wood Elves already have superior sustain. Khajiit is only considered at all currently since it does higher damage than Wood Elves but on par damage to Redguard (slightly less), just less sustain. My suggested change helps bring both Khajiit and Wood Elves more in line with Redguard without any race being instantly superior overall. Khajiit would potentially do more Damage then both Redguard and Wood Elves but both would excel at sustain over Khajiit.

    Not all races NEED to compete in the same field when there are other avenues they can excel at instead.
    Argonian forever
  • Twohothardware
    Twohothardware
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    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Khajiit's biggest drawback is in sustain so if it's going to be the hardest DPS race to sustain on it needs to have clearly the higher damage potential which you don't get if you give the same max Stamina buff to Wood Elf as well. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff as I think all races outside of Redguard, Argonian, and maybe Dark Elf and Orc need a race update to get them equally competitive but Khajiit is in worse shape due to sustain and needs something that addresses that.

    Some races suck at sustain.
    Dunmer, Nord, Orcs and Imperial have 0 real sustain racials (don't count Red Diamond), in which Khajiit is already ahead of the curb with their 10% stamina regen. Even if their regen was buffed to 20% it would still be left behind entirely since both Redguard and Wood Elves already have superior sustain. Khajiit is only considered at all currently since it does higher damage than Wood Elves but on par damage to Redguard (slightly less), just less sustain. My suggested change helps bring both Khajiit and Wood Elves more in line with Redguard without any race being instantly superior overall. Khajiit would potentially do more Damage then both Redguard and Wood Elves but both would excel at sustain over Khajiit.

    Not all races NEED to compete in the same field when there are other avenues they can excel at instead.

    It would not be any noticeable buff to Khajiit what you suggested. 6% health makes little difference unless you're wearing Heavy Armor which isn't really the meta for Nightblades and losing the 20% Health Recovery is a downgrade when that helps survivability when combined with sets like Troll King.

    But you're right about races like Nord and Imperial having 0 real sustain racials and that's why noone is using them for anything outside of a tank that stands there and holds block and even that is better done by an Argonian now. The sustain changes last year ruined Race balance because it gave a larger advantage to all the Races that have a strong sustain passive.
    Edited by Twohothardware on February 1, 2018 9:33PM
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    waitwhat wrote: »
    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.

    Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.


    I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.

    I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.

    I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.

    Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.

    Going off of Asayre's equations ...

    Assuming a 2 otherwise identical stamsorc builds with: 60% crit, 35k max stamina, 3500 weapon damage, with a crit damage modifier of 85% (+20% Precise Strikes, +10% Minor Force, +5% Major Force [assuming 33% uptime]) ...

    DPS gain of +10% max stamina:

    DPS gain = 1 + (3500 / (35000 + 10.5 * 3500))

    DPS gain = 4.8%

    DPS gain of +8% weapon crit:

    DPS gain = 1 + ((0.08 * 0.85) / (1 + 0.6 * 0.85))

    DPS gain = 4.5%

    Now, if we assume a stamblade/stamplar, and bump the crit damage modifier to 95%, the DPS gain of +8% crit is ... 4.8%.

    Of course, the math is a little bit simplified here because the max stamina gain won't necessarily be 3500 on a build with 35000 stamina because of the order of operations of additive/multiplicative resource bonuses, but should be close enough for a rough comparison.

    Either way the weapon crit bonus of Khajiit would need to outperform a 10% max stamina bonus by a pretty significant margin to offset the utility of the Adrenaline Rush passive, I'd say something in the 10-12% range would be appropriate.

    I think this somewhat misses the point that the khajiit version of the stamsorc can get to the "identical 60%" without putting as much investment into crit, therefore allowing them to make themselves unidentical with investments into weapon damage, penetration, or bleed (say by swapping out a dagger for something else, or wearing a set with different 2, 3, or 4 piece bonuses). Also, the calculations change when we introduce factors like the shadow or piercing into those equations.

    The 'identical' Khajiit stamsorc may slightly underperform the 'identical' Redguard stamsorc, but that speaks more to the khajiit stamsorc being built sub-optimally in order to be identical.

    @waitwhat

    I don't really follow what you're trying to say here.

    No one really uses The Shadow and I don't see what Piercing, which grants physical penetration, has to do with a comparison of Khajiit weapon critical bonuses to Redguard max stamina bonuses.

    I think you've missed the point altogether: the "otherwise identical" builds are at 60% crit before factoring in racial passives. The Khajiit build would have 68% crit, the Redguard would have 60%.

    You are optimally going to run VO + Automaton or Hunding's + Automaton or Sunderflame + Automaton or something along those lines regardless of race. Set selection is largely dictated by 5-piece bonuses and group needs, not min-maxing the 2-4-piece bonuses which are mostly interchangeable. There are no set bonuses that increase critical damage. You are optimally going to run The Warrior regardless of race, because it will outperform The Shadow (which is the only Mundus that would specifically benefit Khajiit) in almost all circumstances.

    The Shadow (7 x Legendary Divines) = +13.73% critical damage
    The Warrior (7 x Legendary Divines) = +363 weapon damage

    Using the starting values from above, The Shadow will grant roughly a 5.4% DPS increase for the Redguard and a 5.9% increase for the Khajiit.

    The Warrior will grant roughly a 6.5% DPS increase either way.

    Now of course, monster set options might be different (say, Khajiit might need to run Stormfist whereas Redguards may be able to use Velidreth), and we might choose dagger/dagger versus dagger/axe, and CP might be allocated differently.

    But in the end, the 10% max stam boost is at least as good as 8% crit, and often better ... just from a pure DPS perspective; when factoring in the additional utility and sustain of having a significantly larger stamina pool, the 10% max stam bonus wins every time. Khajiit get 10% stamina regen, Redguards get 9%. The third Khajiit passive is useless in PvE; the third Reguard passive is effectively ~158 stamina regen.

    IMO not hard to see at all that Redguard is easily the better choice in almost all PvE scenarios.

    Give these to khajiit and you will see more of a balance between the 2 and maybe some balance with altmer. 2% more weapon crit (10% total), 10% spell crit, 10% mag recovery, and 6% max hp

    I really just don't see the point of shoe-horning magicka DPS passives into Khajiit. It just makes things more complicated.
    Altmer, Dunmer, and Breton are already very good magicka DPS classes.
    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Khajiit's biggest drawback is in sustain so if it's going to be the hardest DPS race to sustain on it needs to have clearly the higher damage potential which you don't get if you give the same max Stamina buff to Wood Elf as well. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff as I think all races outside of Redguard, Argonian, and maybe Dark Elf and Orc need a race update to get them equally competitive but Khajiit is in worse shape due to sustain and needs something that addresses that.

    Some races suck at sustain.
    Dunmer, Nord, Orcs and Imperial have 0 real sustain racials (don't count Red Diamond), in which Khajiit is already ahead of the curb with their 10% stamina regen. Even if their regen was buffed to 20% it would still be left behind entirely since both Redguard and Wood Elves already have superior sustain. Khajiit is only considered at all currently since it does higher damage than Wood Elves but on par damage to Redguard (slightly less), just less sustain. My suggested change helps bring both Khajiit and Wood Elves more in line with Redguard without any race being instantly superior overall. Khajiit would potentially do more Damage then both Redguard and Wood Elves but both would excel at sustain over Khajiit.

    Not all races NEED to compete in the same field when there are other avenues they can excel at instead.

    It would not be any noticeable buff to Khajiit what you suggested. 6% health makes little difference unless you're wearing Heavy Armor which isn't really the meta for Nightblades and losing the 20% Health Recovery is a downgrade when that helps survivability when combined with sets like Troll King.

    But you're right about races like Nord and Imperial having 0 real sustain racials and that's why noone is using them for anything outside of a tank that stands there and holds block and even that is better done by an Argonian now. The sustain changes last year ruined Race balance because it gave a larger advantage to all the Races that have a strong sustain passive.

    Imperial doesn't have racial sustain passives but the +10% health, as stated elsewhere in this thread, allows them to do things to improve sustain. Either via running 7 pieces of medium armor or using Dubious Camoran Throne instead of bi-stat max/max food.

    I'd pick Imperial over Khajiit right now for a stamDK or stamsorc, honestly.
    Edited by LiquidPony on February 1, 2018 10:08PM
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Khajiit's biggest drawback is in sustain so if it's going to be the hardest DPS race to sustain on it needs to have clearly the higher damage potential which you don't get if you give the same max Stamina buff to Wood Elf as well. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff as I think all races outside of Redguard, Argonian, and maybe Dark Elf and Orc need a race update to get them equally competitive but Khajiit is in worse shape due to sustain and needs something that addresses that.

    Some races suck at sustain.
    Dunmer, Nord, Orcs and Imperial have 0 real sustain racials (don't count Red Diamond), in which Khajiit is already ahead of the curb with their 10% stamina regen. Even if their regen was buffed to 20% it would still be left behind entirely since both Redguard and Wood Elves already have superior sustain. Khajiit is only considered at all currently since it does higher damage than Wood Elves but on par damage to Redguard (slightly less), just less sustain. My suggested change helps bring both Khajiit and Wood Elves more in line with Redguard without any race being instantly superior overall. Khajiit would potentially do more Damage then both Redguard and Wood Elves but both would excel at sustain over Khajiit.

    Not all races NEED to compete in the same field when there are other avenues they can excel at instead.

    It would not be any noticeable buff to Khajiit what you suggested. 6% health makes little difference unless you're wearing Heavy Armor which isn't really the meta for Nightblades and losing the 20% Health Recovery is a downgrade when that helps survivability when combined with sets like Troll King.

    But you're right about races like Nord and Imperial having 0 real sustain racials and that's why noone is using them for anything outside of a tank that stands there and holds block and even that is better done by an Argonian now. The sustain changes last year ruined Race balance because it gave a larger advantage to all the Races that have a strong sustain passive.

    I'm suggesting 6% max health and 3% stamina for Khajiit. The 3% might be small but coupled with their 8% crit bonus would make them stronger DPS wise without overturning them and the 6% health bonus isn't exactly worthless either in PvE or PvP content, especially when it means being able to use something like the Dubious Cameron drink.

    Again, not every race needs to excel in the same fields, when there are other avenues to excel in. Argonians have the worst damage but the best sustain. Orc and Dunmer have *** sustain but good damage. Redguard is currently overtuned because it has the best of both worlds with best damage AND sustain, which is what I'm trying to alleviate by making Wood Elves and Khajiit deal damage on par or greater than Redguard so that it becomes a CHOICE instead of 1 race to conquer all.
    Edited by Silver_Strider on February 1, 2018 10:12PM
    Argonian forever
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Khajiit's biggest drawback is in sustain so if it's going to be the hardest DPS race to sustain on it needs to have clearly the higher damage potential which you don't get if you give the same max Stamina buff to Wood Elf as well. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff as I think all races outside of Redguard, Argonian, and maybe Dark Elf and Orc need a race update to get them equally competitive but Khajiit is in worse shape due to sustain and needs something that addresses that.

    Some races suck at sustain.
    Dunmer, Nord, Orcs and Imperial have 0 real sustain racials (don't count Red Diamond), in which Khajiit is already ahead of the curb with their 10% stamina regen. Even if their regen was buffed to 20% it would still be left behind entirely since both Redguard and Wood Elves already have superior sustain. Khajiit is only considered at all currently since it does higher damage than Wood Elves but on par damage to Redguard (slightly less), just less sustain. My suggested change helps bring both Khajiit and Wood Elves more in line with Redguard without any race being instantly superior overall. Khajiit would potentially do more Damage then both Redguard and Wood Elves but both would excel at sustain over Khajiit.

    Not all races NEED to compete in the same field when there are other avenues they can excel at instead.

    It would not be any noticeable buff to Khajiit what you suggested. 6% health makes little difference unless you're wearing Heavy Armor which isn't really the meta for Nightblades and losing the 20% Health Recovery is a downgrade when that helps survivability when combined with sets like Troll King.

    But you're right about races like Nord and Imperial having 0 real sustain racials and that's why noone is using them for anything outside of a tank that stands there and holds block and even that is better done by an Argonian now. The sustain changes last year ruined Race balance because it gave a larger advantage to all the Races that have a strong sustain passive.

    I'm suggesting 6% max health and 3% stamina for Khajiit. The 3% might be small but coupled with their 8% crit bonus would make them stronger DPS wise without overturning them and the 6% health bonus isn't exactly worthless either in PvE or PvP content, especially when it means being able to use something like the Dubious Cameron drink.

    Again, not every race needs to excel in the same fields, when there are other avenues to excel in. Argonians have the worst damage but the best sustain. Orc and Dunmer have *** sustain but good damage. Redguard is currently overtuned because it has the best of both worlds with best damage AND sustain, which is what I'm trying to alleviate by making Wood Elves and Khajiit deal damage on par or greater than Redguard so that it becomes a CHOICE instead of 1 race to conquer all.

    problem with buffing stealthy to that, is that you would be buffing nbs and the community at the moment isn't too happy with that idea, especially with dk changes
  • Silver_Strider
    Silver_Strider
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Khajiit's biggest drawback is in sustain so if it's going to be the hardest DPS race to sustain on it needs to have clearly the higher damage potential which you don't get if you give the same max Stamina buff to Wood Elf as well. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff as I think all races outside of Redguard, Argonian, and maybe Dark Elf and Orc need a race update to get them equally competitive but Khajiit is in worse shape due to sustain and needs something that addresses that.

    Some races suck at sustain.
    Dunmer, Nord, Orcs and Imperial have 0 real sustain racials (don't count Red Diamond), in which Khajiit is already ahead of the curb with their 10% stamina regen. Even if their regen was buffed to 20% it would still be left behind entirely since both Redguard and Wood Elves already have superior sustain. Khajiit is only considered at all currently since it does higher damage than Wood Elves but on par damage to Redguard (slightly less), just less sustain. My suggested change helps bring both Khajiit and Wood Elves more in line with Redguard without any race being instantly superior overall. Khajiit would potentially do more Damage then both Redguard and Wood Elves but both would excel at sustain over Khajiit.

    Not all races NEED to compete in the same field when there are other avenues they can excel at instead.

    It would not be any noticeable buff to Khajiit what you suggested. 6% health makes little difference unless you're wearing Heavy Armor which isn't really the meta for Nightblades and losing the 20% Health Recovery is a downgrade when that helps survivability when combined with sets like Troll King.

    But you're right about races like Nord and Imperial having 0 real sustain racials and that's why noone is using them for anything outside of a tank that stands there and holds block and even that is better done by an Argonian now. The sustain changes last year ruined Race balance because it gave a larger advantage to all the Races that have a strong sustain passive.

    I'm suggesting 6% max health and 3% stamina for Khajiit. The 3% might be small but coupled with their 8% crit bonus would make them stronger DPS wise without overturning them and the 6% health bonus isn't exactly worthless either in PvE or PvP content, especially when it means being able to use something like the Dubious Cameron drink.

    Again, not every race needs to excel in the same fields, when there are other avenues to excel in. Argonians have the worst damage but the best sustain. Orc and Dunmer have *** sustain but good damage. Redguard is currently overtuned because it has the best of both worlds with best damage AND sustain, which is what I'm trying to alleviate by making Wood Elves and Khajiit deal damage on par or greater than Redguard so that it becomes a CHOICE instead of 1 race to conquer all.

    problem with buffing stealthy to that, is that you would be buffing nbs and the community at the moment isn't too happy with that idea, especially with dk changes

    Correction, it buffs stealth mechanics, which every class can use, NBs just have the best tools to do so and considering that Redguard is overperforming Wood Elves and Khajiit, despite this passive, shows that the passive isn't overperforming at all.
    Argonian forever
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Khajiit's biggest drawback is in sustain so if it's going to be the hardest DPS race to sustain on it needs to have clearly the higher damage potential which you don't get if you give the same max Stamina buff to Wood Elf as well. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff as I think all races outside of Redguard, Argonian, and maybe Dark Elf and Orc need a race update to get them equally competitive but Khajiit is in worse shape due to sustain and needs something that addresses that.

    Some races suck at sustain.
    Dunmer, Nord, Orcs and Imperial have 0 real sustain racials (don't count Red Diamond), in which Khajiit is already ahead of the curb with their 10% stamina regen. Even if their regen was buffed to 20% it would still be left behind entirely since both Redguard and Wood Elves already have superior sustain. Khajiit is only considered at all currently since it does higher damage than Wood Elves but on par damage to Redguard (slightly less), just less sustain. My suggested change helps bring both Khajiit and Wood Elves more in line with Redguard without any race being instantly superior overall. Khajiit would potentially do more Damage then both Redguard and Wood Elves but both would excel at sustain over Khajiit.

    Not all races NEED to compete in the same field when there are other avenues they can excel at instead.

    It would not be any noticeable buff to Khajiit what you suggested. 6% health makes little difference unless you're wearing Heavy Armor which isn't really the meta for Nightblades and losing the 20% Health Recovery is a downgrade when that helps survivability when combined with sets like Troll King.

    But you're right about races like Nord and Imperial having 0 real sustain racials and that's why noone is using them for anything outside of a tank that stands there and holds block and even that is better done by an Argonian now. The sustain changes last year ruined Race balance because it gave a larger advantage to all the Races that have a strong sustain passive.

    I'm suggesting 6% max health and 3% stamina for Khajiit. The 3% might be small but coupled with their 8% crit bonus would make them stronger DPS wise without overturning them and the 6% health bonus isn't exactly worthless either in PvE or PvP content, especially when it means being able to use something like the Dubious Cameron drink.

    Again, not every race needs to excel in the same fields, when there are other avenues to excel in. Argonians have the worst damage but the best sustain. Orc and Dunmer have *** sustain but good damage. Redguard is currently overtuned because it has the best of both worlds with best damage AND sustain, which is what I'm trying to alleviate by making Wood Elves and Khajiit deal damage on par or greater than Redguard so that it becomes a CHOICE instead of 1 race to conquer all.

    problem with buffing stealthy to that, is that you would be buffing nbs and the community at the moment isn't too happy with that idea, especially with dk changes

    Correction, it buffs stealth mechanics, which every class can use, NBs just have the best tools to do so and considering that Redguard is overperforming Wood Elves and Khajiit, despite this passive, shows that the passive isn't overperforming at all.

    The reason why bosmer is better than redguard for stamblades in pvp is because of that passive and better out of combat regen
  • JobooAGS
    JobooAGS
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    JobooAGS wrote: »
    JobooAGS wrote: »
    I say add 3% Max Stamina to the Sneak Passive so both Wood Elf and Khajiit benefit from it and change Health recovery on Khajiit to 6% Max Health.

    This gives Wood Elves a 9% total Stamina, making it slightly more on par with Redguard, while Khajiitt get 6% max health and 3% Stamina to help bridge the gap between all 3 races and make them all have their positives and negatives.

    That's more of a buff for Wood Elf than it is Khajiit. Khajiit's biggest drawback is in sustain so if it's going to be the hardest DPS race to sustain on it needs to have clearly the higher damage potential which you don't get if you give the same max Stamina buff to Wood Elf as well. Everyone would just continue picking Wood Elf over Khajiit in PvP.

    I'm not against Wood Elf getting a small buff as I think all races outside of Redguard, Argonian, and maybe Dark Elf and Orc need a race update to get them equally competitive but Khajiit is in worse shape due to sustain and needs something that addresses that.

    Some races suck at sustain.
    Dunmer, Nord, Orcs and Imperial have 0 real sustain racials (don't count Red Diamond), in which Khajiit is already ahead of the curb with their 10% stamina regen. Even if their regen was buffed to 20% it would still be left behind entirely since both Redguard and Wood Elves already have superior sustain. Khajiit is only considered at all currently since it does higher damage than Wood Elves but on par damage to Redguard (slightly less), just less sustain. My suggested change helps bring both Khajiit and Wood Elves more in line with Redguard without any race being instantly superior overall. Khajiit would potentially do more Damage then both Redguard and Wood Elves but both would excel at sustain over Khajiit.

    Not all races NEED to compete in the same field when there are other avenues they can excel at instead.

    It would not be any noticeable buff to Khajiit what you suggested. 6% health makes little difference unless you're wearing Heavy Armor which isn't really the meta for Nightblades and losing the 20% Health Recovery is a downgrade when that helps survivability when combined with sets like Troll King.

    But you're right about races like Nord and Imperial having 0 real sustain racials and that's why noone is using them for anything outside of a tank that stands there and holds block and even that is better done by an Argonian now. The sustain changes last year ruined Race balance because it gave a larger advantage to all the Races that have a strong sustain passive.

    I'm suggesting 6% max health and 3% stamina for Khajiit. The 3% might be small but coupled with their 8% crit bonus would make them stronger DPS wise without overturning them and the 6% health bonus isn't exactly worthless either in PvE or PvP content, especially when it means being able to use something like the Dubious Cameron drink.

    Again, not every race needs to excel in the same fields, when there are other avenues to excel in. Argonians have the worst damage but the best sustain. Orc and Dunmer have *** sustain but good damage. Redguard is currently overtuned because it has the best of both worlds with best damage AND sustain, which is what I'm trying to alleviate by making Wood Elves and Khajiit deal damage on par or greater than Redguard so that it becomes a CHOICE instead of 1 race to conquer all.

    problem with buffing stealthy to that, is that you would be buffing nbs and the community at the moment isn't too happy with that idea, especially with dk changes

    Correction, it buffs stealth mechanics, which every class can use, NBs just have the best tools to do so and considering that Redguard is overperforming Wood Elves and Khajiit, despite this passive, shows that the passive isn't overperforming at all.

    The reason why bosmer is better than redguard for stamblades in pvp is because of that passive and better out of combat regen

    Better off giving khajiits a direct 3% max stam
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