Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
Apache_Kid wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I forgot to add to give khajiits the same amount of mag regen as stam regen too in my proposal. Make khajiits the crit race.
Hmm I would be fine with this But the magicka regen should be the same as the stam regen currently is. Giving them a sustain buff to what they currently have with crit would make the BiS for every build unless it was very minimal.
Apache_Kid wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I forgot to add to give khajiits the same amount of mag regen as stam regen too in my proposal. Make khajiits the crit race.
Hmm I would be fine with this But the magicka regen should be the same as the stam regen currently is. Giving them a sustain buff to what they currently have with crit would make the BiS for every build unless it was very minimal.
Proposed Khajiit passives:
Nimble:
Increases health recovery by 6/13/20% mag and stam recovery by 3/6/10%
Stealthy:
reduces detection radius by 1/2/3 m increases your damage while in stealth by 3/6/10%
Carnage:
Increases weapon and spell critical by 2/5/8% and Max Health by 2/4/6% or Dodge Chance by 1/2(3)/3(5)%
just give khajiits spell crit and maybe a passive 3-5% dodge chance and/or 6% hp
Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.
Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.
But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.
Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.
But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.
Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.
But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.
What do you mean. Redguard is currently THE best race for in combat sustain and in combat damage. PVE and PVP. Even if Khajiit got more damge to at least match redguard, redguard would still have sustain. If Khajiit got even more damage to outdamage redguard, there would be still benefit to play redguard for the sustain. And they would still be best in PVP.
Apache_Kid wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.
But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.
What do you mean. Redguard is currently THE best race for in combat sustain and in combat damage. PVE and PVP. Even if Khajiit got more damge to at least match redguard, redguard would still have sustain. If Khajiit got even more damage to outdamage redguard, there would be still benefit to play redguard for the sustain. And they would still be best in PVP.
Many people would disagree, including myself, about Redguard being BiS for PvP. It's not all about combat damage.
I was responding to OPs suggestions in which it seemed to me that they would make Khajiit BiS for stam DPS builds and I found that a bit troubling to me. That's it. I play end-game content on my wood-elf stamblade because I PvE and PvP on that character and I manage just fine. Yeah I could be a bit better but that's the sacrifice I make to have the versatility of being effective in PvP and PvE. I understand wanting the Khajiit health passives changed to something else but I don't think we need to get carried away with it either. There can be a middle-ground perhaps.
Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.
But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.
A buff to Khajiit will not stop Redguard from being a very strong and versatile race. In solo PvE like Maelstrom it will still be better than Khajiit due to its superior sustain and in PvP it will still be the best race for all stamina classes along with Orc, with the exclusion maybe of stamina nightblade (the only class where bosmer is BiS, unlike you stated).
Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.
8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.
8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.
But again, what would that change?
For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds".
For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds".
I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.
Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.
Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.
8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.
But again, what would that change?
For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds".
For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds".
I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.
Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.
Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.
8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.
But again, what would that change?
For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds".
For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds".
I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.
Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.
Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways.
You can also increase the crit values to 10% too
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Originally at launch the khajiit crit passive worked for all crit, both weapon and spell. They should revert that change.
8% weapon and spell crit would be a good buff that wouldn't adversely impact racial balance much.
But again, what would that change?
For stamina: nothing. People will still complain about being "last pick for stam builds".
For magicka: little. It will be still behind the real magicka races. People will still complain about being "very last pick for mag builds".
I just can't see the use in buffing something just for the buff, especially if it makes little to no difference.
Even if you change Nimble into +12-15% magicka and stam recovery, it will still be not be bis because of the low max resources.
Although I could see the incentive in having sustain and crit in both ways.
You can also increase the crit values to 10% too
I haven't done the math but I doubt that would put them over Redguards, Orcs, Wood Elfs... Altmer, Dunmer, Breton...
Apache_Kid wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »Supernatural wrote: »Apache_Kid wrote: »If you buff Khajiit as you propose there would never be any argument for me running any race other than a Khajiit for PvE Stam DPS builds.
Currently, if you want to play with the Khajiit with the xtra crit, you need to sacrifice some sustain. This to me is balanced.
I would be perfectly OK with adding spell-crit to the passive but that wouldn't get me to ever roll a Khajiit magicka character but it seems many people here would.
I already went throught that. Crit has been nerfed so hard over the last patches that the 8% crit is actually weaker than the redguard's 10% maximum stamina in terms of damage production. You sacrifice sustain by being a khajiit for a passive that does not even give you an advantage over redguard.
I'd have to see some evidence of this. When I can sustain on my Khajiit by sustianing well-enough for my rotation I've felt that the crit rating was better than the 10% max stam because I wasn't already packing a ton into crit. I think this depends on how your character is built.
Either way my original point stands that the buffs you proposed for khajiit would make them BiS for any stam DPS build in my opinion and I would be hard-pressed to come up with a reason to play any race other than a Khajiit for stam DPS. Maybe they need a buff but it needs to be less than what you proposed.
Yes, what I am proposing will make Khajiit the best choice for trial DPS. There must some content at which they excel, and right now there is not.
But where does that leave Redguards best at? jack of all trades for stamina builds? Bosmer already BiS for PvP. I think a lot of people would see a change like this as ZoS directly trying to push the race-change tokens out at 3000 crowns a pop.
What do you mean. Redguard is currently THE best race for in combat sustain and in combat damage. PVE and PVP. Even if Khajiit got more damge to at least match redguard, redguard would still have sustain. If Khajiit got even more damage to outdamage redguard, there would be still benefit to play redguard for the sustain. And they would still be best in PVP.
Many people would disagree, including myself, about Redguard being BiS for PvP. It's not all about combat damage.
I was responding to OPs suggestions in which it seemed to me that they would make Khajiit BiS for stam DPS builds and I found that a bit troubling to me. That's it. I play end-game content on my wood-elf stamblade because I PvE and PvP on that character and I manage just fine. Yeah I could be a bit better but that's the sacrifice I make to have the versatility of being effective in PvP and PvE. I understand wanting the Khajiit health passives changed to something else but I don't think we need to get carried away with it either. There can be a middle-ground perhaps.
From experience, most people looking down on redguard in PVP are the same people that think 10% regen on 2k stam regen build means 200 more regen! When you truly put it up to math, there are very few situations where redguard does not win damage and sustain wise. Obviously there are the 'not everything is about damage' cases where different races like Orc come better.
Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Joy_Division wrote: »I think you are setting a very lofty goal for your race:Supernatural wrote: »Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP.
Going straight past good and shooting for numero uno huh?
I'm all for a race re-balance, but let's keep some perspective. Some other races are just striving not to suck. Nords being the poster child
Supernatural wrote: »In this post I want to analyze how Khajiit performs in PvE and PvP.
So, what do you get as a Khajiit?
- 20% Health Recovery. I'll be blunt about this one: Health recovery is absolutely worthless in end-game PvE. No builds will ever invest into health recovery, whether it is a DD, a healer, or tank. There is simply no reason to. In PvP, health recovery is a rather weak stat and in order to make some use out of it you will have to run specific health recovery oriented sets, such as Troll King, but anything beyond that will turn you into a tank who will not be able to kill anyone. But then again, if you wanna build for tankiness, there are other races which fullfill that role way better. Khajiit has always been a pure damage race, and was never used for its health recovery.
- 10% Stamina Recovery. An extremely weak passive in end-game PvE. This equals to less than 100 recovery if we are running base stam regen, which in end-game PvE you will want to do in order to maximize your DPS. Somewhat decent in PvP, but overall gets outshined by other races' racials which boast out much more sustain.
- 10% damage done while in stealth and reduced detection radius. Has no use in end-game PvE, okay-ish in solo PvE (outside of Maelstrom Arena) and PvP. Wood Elf also has this passive.
- 8% Critical Strike Chance. The sole reason one would pick Khajiit (outside of roleplaying and looks) as their race. Unfortunately, this passive's value has been DRASTICALLY decreased over the latest patches. Warhorn changed from multiplicative to additive, proc sets not critically striking anymore and huge nerfs to the thief and the shadow (gets outcritted by the warrior mundus stone), mundus stones really killed off Khajiit. In PvP, both critical strike chance and damage are being heavily mitigated by things such as the impenetrable trait, the resistance champion point passive, as well as the impregnable set, making this passive rather weak.
Overall, I think it is pretty clear that Khajiit underperforms. In end-game PvE it is in the shadow of Redguard. Damage wise they are more or less the same (redguard does tiny more damage, but you will not notice any actual difference), but the redguard's resource management is far superior, and higher sustain equal higher DPS. In PvP, Khajiit is simply lackluster. Redguard and Wood Elf are flat out better both in damage and sustain, Imperial has very high stat pools, and Orc, Argonian and Nord have much better utility.
Khajiit needs to be buffed in a way where it will once again be the #1 for stamina PvE DPS as well as being a viable race in PvP. What am I proposing:Anyone remember this? This is back from June 2016 (Shadows of the Hist, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/274961/pts-patch-notes-v2-5-0/p1). This change was mainly PvP focused, however it was eventually reverted, as Khajiit was already the strongest stamina PvE race by a good margin, and a 6% max stamina would make it even more powerful. However, things have changed so much since then, that I feel like it is the right time for this change to be implemented, the race really needs it. It will make Khajiit the best choice for a stamina DD once again, but not by too much, and it will actually give Khajiit something to work with in PvP. What do you think?ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »FIXES & IMPROVEMENTS, BASE GAME PATCH
Khajiit Skills
- Medium Armor Expertise: This passive ability has been renamed to “Cutpurse.” Also, in addition to the current benefit it now increases your chance to successfully pickpocket by 5%.
- Robust Constitution: This passive ability has been renamed to “Nimble.” Also, it no longer increases your Health Recovery by 6/13/20%. It now increases your Max Stamina by 2/4/6% and continues to increase your Stamina Recovery by 3/6/10%.