Bye Warden

Ultimate_Overlord · January 2018

Console players being unable to preprly aim shalk is their problem, magicka warden is fine, in fact, its really good. Stop pretending that this is a magicka warden nerf, magicka wardens can still land cliff racer reliably in burst combos if timed with shalk cc properly, while stam wardens dont have a way to ensure their cliff racer lands.

Leandor · January 2018

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, it hits too hard to be undodgeable.

Yes, that is true. The way they "adjusted" the problem is bad nonetheless.

The change should have been that stam morph is dodgeable but retains the damage increase from range. Magicka morph should still be undodgeable, but get reduced damage by 10%, maybe 15%.

That way you retained the hard counter to dodge builds while nerfing stam wardens (which would be what is needed).

If then shimmering shield got a slight magicka cost increase so stamdens lose a bit of their ranged immunity and magdens have increased opportunity cost, the combination would have had:
- an effect on the stamden issue
- a tolerable effect on magdens
- retaining unique playstyles for both classes.

But no, they did nothing against stamdens and removed feasibility of magdens. Why play a magden now that every other class can do a better job, except for buffing a ball group?

Feanor · January 2018

Is Warden really so bad in PvE? I don’t know. Saw this clip posted on the forum before. A 52k parse on Rakkhat doesn’t seem so bad. Unless it was cheesed (and yes, this is with constant Major Force through Guard).

https://youtu.be/KjAwdVUxIL8

pieratsos · January 2018

Leandor wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, it hits too hard to be undodgeable.

Yes, that is true. The way they "adjusted" the problem is bad nonetheless.

The change should have been that stam morph is dodgeable but retains the damage increase from range. Magicka morph should still be undodgeable, but get reduced damage by 10%, maybe 15%.

That way you retained the hard counter to dodge builds while nerfing stam wardens (which would be what is needed).

If then shimmering shield got a slight magicka cost increase so stamdens lose a bit of their ranged immunity and magdens have increased opportunity cost, the combination would have had:
- an effect on the stamden issue
- a tolerable effect on magdens
- retaining unique playstyles for both classes.

But no, they did nothing against stamdens and removed feasibility of magdens. Why play a magden now that every other class can do a better job, except for buffing a ball group?

You do not address overperforming/underperforming abilities by making them entirely ignore defensive mechanics. Hard counters are bad. Period. And birds are anything but underperfoming even when they are dodgeable. Its the hardest hitting spammable in the game.

Seriously what is up with everyone asking for hard counters against everything. Is it really so bad to have to think and work to get a kill? Why does everyone need to have the mentality of "i cant fight this guy so give me something to abuse him"?

Zer0oo · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Is Warden really so bad in PvE? I don’t know. Saw this clip posted on the forum before. A 52k parse on Rakkhat doesn’t seem so bad. Unless it was cheesed (and yes, this is with constant Major Force through Guard).

https://youtu.be/KjAwdVUxIL8

Don't get me wrong getting this high dps on a mag warden is impressive, but you still need to compare it to other classes with the same buffs and i do not think they will win in comparison.
Keep in mind you have to use the bear for this high dps, which means no real aoe dps (one of the main reasons for still bringing mag dds in most trials) and pets do not work in a lot of trials(but major slayer with the bear is nice). You can also get a lot of dps on rakkat with the undead enchant.
They do not have a unique minor buff for the grp since you already have the buff from wh.

Firstmep · January 2018

Meanwhile my stamplar with 26 k spell resist 3 k impen and blade cloak is getting hit by 7k fissures from 30k hp argonian wardens.
Yeah birds were defo the issue with the class.
Tbh birds were only annoying if i got caught with my pants down with no Los option and when outnumbered.1v1 birds werent really an issue at least for me.
On the other end id like to see some of wardens tankiness and healing added to dks and templars. My stamplar would love a stam version of BoL so i can run forward momentum on a be immune to everything build, kappa.

BohnT · January 2018

Firstmep wrote: »

Meanwhile my stamplar with 26 k spell resist 3 k impen and blade cloak is getting hit by 7k fissures from 30k hp argonian wardens.
Yeah birds were defo the issue with the class.
Tbh birds were only annoying if i got caught with my pants down with no Los option and when outnumbered.1v1 birds werent really an issue at least for me.
On the other end id like to see some of wardens tankiness and healing added to dks and templars. My stamplar would love a stam version of BoL so i can run forward momentum on a be immune to everything build, kappa.

Warden is still overtuned and either they nerf them to death or completely rework them.
Stamwarden is just crazy op but the crying will be much bigger when they do what has to be done

Azurya · January 2018

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

facit:
both wardens, are now serving as storgae for parts I maybe never use, but still doesn´t want to wreck

no competitive build possible anymore, in PVE, if you say you join the team with your warden, you are all of the sudden no longer needed
In PvP you already sucks for a long time, last patch it was the healing nerfed, now the dmg, what else? WHAT ELSE!?

and some jokes here are talking about balancing! LoL
I hope your classes get "balanced" as well!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

FakeFox · January 2018

While this is fore sure a considerable nerf, Warden is far from dead in PvP. It still has the exact same burst potential, you simply have to time it better now. Remember that you can simply stun people and still hit birds reliably.

munster1404 · January 2018

Happy for the PvPers. Until their next complain about OP classes or builds. I’m glad i don’t PvP at all. This activity constantly needs to be babysitted and curated. What a sad place to be in.

Hutch679 · January 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

TO ALL MAGDENS:

If birds are so bad vs pulse, why would you want to change the delay. Wouldn't it just be a worse copy of pulse? Both unreflectable, both dodgable, but one provides the added effects of destro.

Why do wardens run both. I'll give you a hint. Delayed burst.

They ran both because it's literally the only way to fill your bar

Edit: that burst combo was good against pros for about the first two weeks, after that only potatoes die to it

I'm guessing you mean passives. But surely something else can fit the bill. And I am pretty sure that is same with all burst combos. ProvPro is decided by who makes the mistake first. My burst on sorcs can be avoided, same on my DK, same on warden, same on NB. It shouldn't require mechanic skipping abilities to work. Which is why I am all for powerlash being dodgable, for example.

You talk a lot about magWarden. What's the character name of yours on PC EU. You seem to be an expert on the class, so you might can give mine some tips, great master of wisdom?

I don't play one, not going to pretend to, but I have played long enough to know that delayed burst is good, take sorc, and hard counters are for nubs who can't time or outplay. Seeing you in BGs with your premade and your tanky bird spam really tells me a lot

See I don't get why you think your opinion holds so much weight when you don't even play the class... level one up, them come comment on what you think birds should be because making them dodgable sure as hell isn't what they need.

lazerlaz · January 2018

Oh wow Warden spamable is now on par with most of every other class spamable. Must be the end of the world...

Sorry kids, time to up your skill.

Good change. An insanely overdue change.

Hutch679 · January 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

TO ALL MAGDENS:

If birds are so bad vs pulse, why would you want to change the delay. Wouldn't it just be a worse copy of pulse? Both unreflectable, both dodgable, but one provides the added effects of destro.

Why do wardens run both. I'll give you a hint. Delayed burst.

They ran both because it's literally the only way to fill your bar

Edit: that burst combo was good against pros for about the first two weeks, after that only potatoes die to it

I'm guessing you mean passives. But surely something else can fit the bill. And I am pretty sure that is same with all burst combos. ProvPro is decided by who makes the mistake first. My burst on sorcs can be avoided, same on my DK, same on warden, same on NB. It shouldn't require mechanic skipping abilities to work. Which is why I am all for powerlash being dodgable, for example.

You talk a lot about magWarden. What's the character name of yours on PC EU. You seem to be an expert on the class, so you might can give mine some tips, great master of wisdom?

I don't play one, not going to pretend to, but I have played long enough to know that delayed burst is good, take sorc, and hard counters are for nubs who can't time or outplay. Seeing you in BGs with your premade and your tanky bird spam really tells me a lot

Look, thats what I thought - "tanky birdspam" without me having ever birds slotted... I think you are not in the position to comment on the class since your input seems to be based more on vague assumptions than actual observation or first-hand experience.

Not really played proper since new year, but I have 100% been birded by you before.

And if you don't slot it. Then why complain. If you are one of the wardens who slots it only for passives, because pulse is oh so better, then why complain?

Shalk is fine, trees are fine, dot is fine. Hell even the Defile can be dealt with. But bird is unreasonable as it was, and still provides a good burst setup. It's not like I have no exp of the class. I played it in early morrow, but due to lack of slots and having to have mag/stam of each class at diff race I rerolled an sdk.

You're trying to justify a nerf to a class you've never played because of zergs spamming a skill you've never used? Is that what I'm getting here?

Hutch679 · January 2018

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Game needs counterplay. Block being the only counter to a skill is only reliable for zerglings and tanks. Try playing as medium stamplar or medium dk or medium stam sorc against a good magden with a fat magic pool and fat shields. Try eating through stalks with that weird unpredictable hitbox into bird spams and a soul assault that deals 18k damage THROUGH block. The class was over-performing and so is stamden. No class should have access to the amount of major and minor buffs both magden and stamden do. Now they need to fix this tank meta.

That's the sacrifice you make by going medium armor. If you went heavy you would block, not dodge roll. I don't get it lol not to mention youre a stamplar which is arguably the STRONGEST class right now. Then you said soul assault... *rolls eyes* give me a break. You know soul assault isnt a warden skill right?

pieratsos · January 2018

Azurya wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

facit:
both wardens, are now serving as storgae for parts I maybe never use, but still doesn´t want to wreck

no competitive build possible anymore, in PVE, if you say you join the team with your warden, you are all of the sudden no longer needed
In PvP you already sucks for a long time, last patch it was the healing nerfed, now the dmg, what else? WHAT ELSE!?

and some jokes here are talking about balancing! LoL
I hope your classes get "balanced" as well!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

The only joke is insinuating that wardens suck in PVP. Stamina warden is miles ahead of every other spec in the game stamina or magicka. Magicka wardens are better than any other magicka build and better than some stamina builds. This is for open world. In 1v1 they are even stronger.

That should tell you more about you as a player than warden as a class.

Joy_Division · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Is Warden really so bad in PvE? I don’t know. Saw this clip posted on the forum before. A 52k parse on Rakkhat doesn’t seem so bad. Unless it was cheesed (and yes, this is with constant Major Force through Guard).

https://youtu.be/KjAwdVUxIL8

Top 1% player with raid buffs will make a bad performing class look decent.

For all the talk of "Wardens OP," the only wardens that I worry about in Cyrodiil are stam wardens used by the best players. Magicka Wardens are annoying to kill and dangerous Xv1 opponents, but in a 1v1 scenario where they can't just bird spam if you can avoid their Shalks they not going to score a kill. Even if they do land a Shalk, their damage is meh such that it's not too hard to heal/shield up and reengage.

Mag Wardens have terrible damage options: the only skill I'd take if on another class is Deep fissure. That's it; the others are a generic DoT that does just damage, a spammable that just does damage, and a ground Dot easily avoidable.

On my templar, I have a gap closer that stuns, an AoE DoT that gives me crit and snares, an undodgeable AoE melee skill that gives a good HoT, a hard hitting ranged skill that defiles even if dodged, an undodgeale skill that also gives me delayed burst, an undodgeable execute, a Ground DoT that procs more damage and gives my allies resources. In short I have (good) options that offer multiple avenues of how to play.

What are the play styles that a mag Warden offers? Just hit shalk every three seconds and spam Shimmering Shield. I'm not saying Cliff Racer should revert back because the mechanics of the skill were ill thought out, but this is a boring class with now very limited offensive skills that just don't do very much coupled with being the worst DPS spec in the game.

Feanor · January 2018

@Joy_Division

I agree with your statement, but balance decisions should be done around the top players in my opinion. If you use the base skill level of the average player in ESO for balancing it would be ridiculous.

Grevaris_Elluin · January 2018

Hutch679 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

TO ALL MAGDENS:

If birds are so bad vs pulse, why would you want to change the delay. Wouldn't it just be a worse copy of pulse? Both unreflectable, both dodgable, but one provides the added effects of destro.

Why do wardens run both. I'll give you a hint. Delayed burst.

They ran both because it's literally the only way to fill your bar

Edit: that burst combo was good against pros for about the first two weeks, after that only potatoes die to it

I'm guessing you mean passives. But surely something else can fit the bill. And I am pretty sure that is same with all burst combos. ProvPro is decided by who makes the mistake first. My burst on sorcs can be avoided, same on my DK, same on warden, same on NB. It shouldn't require mechanic skipping abilities to work. Which is why I am all for powerlash being dodgable, for example.

You talk a lot about magWarden. What's the character name of yours on PC EU. You seem to be an expert on the class, so you might can give mine some tips, great master of wisdom?

I don't play one, not going to pretend to, but I have played long enough to know that delayed burst is good, take sorc, and hard counters are for nubs who can't time or outplay. Seeing you in BGs with your premade and your tanky bird spam really tells me a lot

Look, thats what I thought - "tanky birdspam" without me having ever birds slotted... I think you are not in the position to comment on the class since your input seems to be based more on vague assumptions than actual observation or first-hand experience.

Not really played proper since new year, but I have 100% been birded by you before.

And if you don't slot it. Then why complain. If you are one of the wardens who slots it only for passives, because pulse is oh so better, then why complain?

Shalk is fine, trees are fine, dot is fine. Hell even the Defile can be dealt with. But bird is unreasonable as it was, and still provides a good burst setup. It's not like I have no exp of the class. I played it in early morrow, but due to lack of slots and having to have mag/stam of each class at diff race I rerolled an sdk.

You're trying to justify a nerf to a class you've never played because of zergs spamming a skill you've never used? Is that what I'm getting here?

Do you selectively choose comments that fit your silly ideas? I have played it in the morrow patch. I know how broken birds are vs dodge builds. If a non nb tried to roll away, they would get birdsspammed by me. Med doesn't really have much going for it.

And on the flip side, things should be balanced around openworld. That includes zergs. I.e. Soul assault, it was broken xv1 trash. Like bird. It now has a counter.

I have a question. I assume you think the power lash changes are fair. So do I. So what you you think of the bird changes. Because if you think undodgable is fine on a spammable but not a set up counterable ability, then you have some skewed perspective.

Leandor · January 2018

pieratsos wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, it hits too hard to be undodgeable.

Yes, that is true. The way they "adjusted" the problem is bad nonetheless.

The change should have been that stam morph is dodgeable but retains the damage increase from range. Magicka morph should still be undodgeable, but get reduced damage by 10%, maybe 15%.

That way you retained the hard counter to dodge builds while nerfing stam wardens (which would be what is needed).

If then shimmering shield got a slight magicka cost increase so stamdens lose a bit of their ranged immunity and magdens have increased opportunity cost, the combination would have had:
- an effect on the stamden issue
- a tolerable effect on magdens
- retaining unique playstyles for both classes.

But no, they did nothing against stamdens and removed feasibility of magdens. Why play a magden now that every other class can do a better job, except for buffing a ball group?

You do not address overperforming/underperforming abilities by making them entirely ignore defensive mechanics. Hard counters are bad. Period. And birds are anything but underperfoming even when they are dodgeable. Its the hardest hitting spammable in the game.

Seriously what is up with everyone asking for hard counters against everything. Is it really so bad to have to think and work to get a kill? Why does everyone need to have the mentality of "i cant fight this guy so give me something to abuse him"?

Birds were a hard counter to one defensive ability. Shields and block rendered birds uneffective.

Together with the other changes to abilities going through dodge, dodge now has very very few counters, making dodge the problem instead of birds.

If you read what I wrote, I actually proposed a layered action on birds, adjusting the ability to make it fit into the game.

Your reply didn't address anything of what I have put up for consideration. So... thanks for making me waste time on you, I guess...

And in regards to "hardest hitting spammable": haha? Dizzying, surprise attack, jabs, strife, dark flare, all of them are similar or surpassing birds. Taking a very specific build optimized for birds as a reference point is.... bad?

Grevaris_Elluin · January 2018

Leandor wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, it hits too hard to be undodgeable.

Yes, that is true. The way they "adjusted" the problem is bad nonetheless.

The change should have been that stam morph is dodgeable but retains the damage increase from range. Magicka morph should still be undodgeable, but get reduced damage by 10%, maybe 15%.

That way you retained the hard counter to dodge builds while nerfing stam wardens (which would be what is needed).

If then shimmering shield got a slight magicka cost increase so stamdens lose a bit of their ranged immunity and magdens have increased opportunity cost, the combination would have had:
- an effect on the stamden issue
- a tolerable effect on magdens
- retaining unique playstyles for both classes.

But no, they did nothing against stamdens and removed feasibility of magdens. Why play a magden now that every other class can do a better job, except for buffing a ball group?

You do not address overperforming/underperforming abilities by making them entirely ignore defensive mechanics. Hard counters are bad. Period. And birds are anything but underperfoming even when they are dodgeable. Its the hardest hitting spammable in the game.

Seriously what is up with everyone asking for hard counters against everything. Is it really so bad to have to think and work to get a kill? Why does everyone need to have the mentality of "i cant fight this guy so give me something to abuse him"?

Birds were a hard counter to one defensive ability. Shields and block rendered birds uneffective.

Together with the other changes to abilities going through dodge, dodge now has very very few counters, making dodge the problem instead of birds.

If you read what I wrote, I actually proposed a layered action on birds, adjusting the ability to make it fit into the game.

Your reply didn't address anything of what I have put up for consideration. So... thanks for making me waste time on you, I guess...

Dodge and reflect.

Dodge still is affected by aoes, dots, on target abilities, ults. Etc etc.

Joy_Division · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I agree with your statement, but balance decisions should be done around the top players in my opinion. If you use the base skill level of the average player in ESO for balancing it would be ridiculous.

OK, but a top 1% player will get more DPS playing any other class than a warden and a top 1% player will be a more lethal PvP opponent playing another spec than a magicka Warden.

BohnT · January 2018

Leandor wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, it hits too hard to be undodgeable.

Yes, that is true. The way they "adjusted" the problem is bad nonetheless.

The change should have been that stam morph is dodgeable but retains the damage increase from range. Magicka morph should still be undodgeable, but get reduced damage by 10%, maybe 15%.

That way you retained the hard counter to dodge builds while nerfing stam wardens (which would be what is needed).

If then shimmering shield got a slight magicka cost increase so stamdens lose a bit of their ranged immunity and magdens have increased opportunity cost, the combination would have had:
- an effect on the stamden issue
- a tolerable effect on magdens
- retaining unique playstyles for both classes.

But no, they did nothing against stamdens and removed feasibility of magdens. Why play a magden now that every other class can do a better job, except for buffing a ball group?

You do not address overperforming/underperforming abilities by making them entirely ignore defensive mechanics. Hard counters are bad. Period. And birds are anything but underperfoming even when they are dodgeable. Its the hardest hitting spammable in the game.

Seriously what is up with everyone asking for hard counters against everything. Is it really so bad to have to think and work to get a kill? Why does everyone need to have the mentality of "i cant fight this guy so give me something to abuse him"?

Birds were a hard counter to one defensive ability. Shields and block rendered birds uneffective.

Together with the other changes to abilities going through dodge, dodge now has very very few counters, making dodge the problem instead of birds.

If you read what I wrote, I actually proposed a layered action on birds, adjusting the ability to make it fit into the game.

Your reply didn't address anything of what I have put up for consideration. So... thanks for making me waste time on you, I guess...

Yeah it's not like warden can't do anything against block right?
Wardens have everything to wreck stamchars, major defile, great healing, undodgeable and unblockable skills and enough mobility to catch them
Hard countering the main defence of medium armor with your spammable is stupid especially when you have an unblockable/ undodgeable AoE nuke that hits for +7k every 3 seconds and ignores LoS+ z Axis

Feanor · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I agree with your statement, but balance decisions should be done around the top players in my opinion. If you use the base skill level of the average player in ESO for balancing it would be ridiculous.

OK, but a top 1% player will get more DPS playing any other class than a warden and a top 1% player will be a more lethal PvP opponent playing another spec than a magicka Warden.

Yes, of course. But the reality is also that balance really only matters on the top end - if you hit only 20k DPS on your Warden you still will complete every content the game has to offer, minus vet HM Trials. The majority of people complaining are not in the territory where they could clear a vet HM Trial regardless of Warden being balanced or not. In my opinion the class can’t be balanced without a complete rework.

BohnT · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I agree with your statement, but balance decisions should be done around the top players in my opinion. If you use the base skill level of the average player in ESO for balancing it would be ridiculous.

OK, but a top 1% player will get more DPS playing any other class than a warden and a top 1% player will be a more lethal PvP opponent playing another spec than a magicka Warden.

Have to disagree with the PvP part.
Magwarden is a genuinely strong spec, atm you have atleast 3 encounters you win by default, magnb, stamplar and stamsorc in open world builds + low chances of dying to magsorcs due to shimmering shield.
Or check how pelican played his warden in the duel tournament. He was one reason for the lack of stamchars in the tournament.

Magwarden might be worse than stamwarden but it's still ahead of most other specs.

Edziu · January 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, it hits too hard to be undodgeable.

Yes, that is true. The way they "adjusted" the problem is bad nonetheless.

The change should have been that stam morph is dodgeable but retains the damage increase from range. Magicka morph should still be undodgeable, but get reduced damage by 10%, maybe 15%.

That way you retained the hard counter to dodge builds while nerfing stam wardens (which would be what is needed).

If then shimmering shield got a slight magicka cost increase so stamdens lose a bit of their ranged immunity and magdens have increased opportunity cost, the combination would have had:
- an effect on the stamden issue
- a tolerable effect on magdens
- retaining unique playstyles for both classes.

But no, they did nothing against stamdens and removed feasibility of magdens. Why play a magden now that every other class can do a better job, except for buffing a ball group?

You do not address overperforming/underperforming abilities by making them entirely ignore defensive mechanics. Hard counters are bad. Period. And birds are anything but underperfoming even when they are dodgeable. Its the hardest hitting spammable in the game.

Seriously what is up with everyone asking for hard counters against everything. Is it really so bad to have to think and work to get a kill? Why does everyone need to have the mentality of "i cant fight this guy so give me something to abuse him"?

Birds were a hard counter to one defensive ability. Shields and block rendered birds uneffective.

Together with the other changes to abilities going through dodge, dodge now has very very few counters, making dodge the problem instead of birds.

If you read what I wrote, I actually proposed a layered action on birds, adjusting the ability to make it fit into the game.

Your reply didn't address anything of what I have put up for consideration. So... thanks for making me waste time on you, I guess...

Dodge and reflect.

Dodge still is affected by aoes, dots, on target abilities, ults. Etc etc.

you also forgot to mention medium armor is just melting by those dots, aoes faster than heavy armor on pvp with pure single target direct daamge

Leandor · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, it hits too hard to be undodgeable.

Yes, that is true. The way they "adjusted" the problem is bad nonetheless.

The change should have been that stam morph is dodgeable but retains the damage increase from range. Magicka morph should still be undodgeable, but get reduced damage by 10%, maybe 15%.

That way you retained the hard counter to dodge builds while nerfing stam wardens (which would be what is needed).

If then shimmering shield got a slight magicka cost increase so stamdens lose a bit of their ranged immunity and magdens have increased opportunity cost, the combination would have had:
- an effect on the stamden issue
- a tolerable effect on magdens
- retaining unique playstyles for both classes.

But no, they did nothing against stamdens and removed feasibility of magdens. Why play a magden now that every other class can do a better job, except for buffing a ball group?

You do not address overperforming/underperforming abilities by making them entirely ignore defensive mechanics. Hard counters are bad. Period. And birds are anything but underperfoming even when they are dodgeable. Its the hardest hitting spammable in the game.

Seriously what is up with everyone asking for hard counters against everything. Is it really so bad to have to think and work to get a kill? Why does everyone need to have the mentality of "i cant fight this guy so give me something to abuse him"?

Birds were a hard counter to one defensive ability. Shields and block rendered birds uneffective.

Together with the other changes to abilities going through dodge, dodge now has very very few counters, making dodge the problem instead of birds.

If you read what I wrote, I actually proposed a layered action on birds, adjusting the ability to make it fit into the game.

Your reply didn't address anything of what I have put up for consideration. So... thanks for making me waste time on you, I guess...

Yeah it's not like warden can't do anything against block right?
Wardens have everything to wreck stamchars, major defile, great healing, undodgeable and unblockable skills and enough mobility to catch them
Hard countering the main defence of medium armor with your spammable is stupid especially when you have an unblockable/ undodgeable AoE nuke that hits for +7k every 3 seconds and ignores LoS+ z Axis

Stamina wardens - yes. Please read what I would have proposed in case I would have an impact on balance changes.

All ground abilities ignore z-axis.

Major defile from wardens is countered by exactly the same defense: dodge.

Mobility... again stamina wardens are the issue. Mag warden are fast but in no way are able to catch a stam char since we are missing a slow/snare.

BohnT · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I agree with your statement, but balance decisions should be done around the top players in my opinion. If you use the base skill level of the average player in ESO for balancing it would be ridiculous.

OK, but a top 1% player will get more DPS playing any other class than a warden and a top 1% player will be a more lethal PvP opponent playing another spec than a magicka Warden.

Yes, of course. But the reality is also that balance really only matters on the top end - if you hit only 20k DPS on your Warden you still will complete every content the game has to offer, minus vet HM Trials. The majority of people complaining are not in the territory where they could clear a vet HM Trial regardless of Warden being balanced or not. In my opinion the class can’t be balanced without a complete rework.

Stop stealing my opinion

Feanor · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I agree with your statement, but balance decisions should be done around the top players in my opinion. If you use the base skill level of the average player in ESO for balancing it would be ridiculous.

OK, but a top 1% player will get more DPS playing any other class than a warden and a top 1% player will be a more lethal PvP opponent playing another spec than a magicka Warden.

Yes, of course. But the reality is also that balance really only matters on the top end - if you hit only 20k DPS on your Warden you still will complete every content the game has to offer, minus vet HM Trials. The majority of people complaining are not in the territory where they could clear a vet HM Trial regardless of Warden being balanced or not. In my opinion the class can’t be balanced without a complete rework.

Stop stealing my opinion

In that case - where is your agree, insightful or awesome on my post?

BohnT · January 2018

Leandor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, it hits too hard to be undodgeable.

Yes, that is true. The way they "adjusted" the problem is bad nonetheless.

The change should have been that stam morph is dodgeable but retains the damage increase from range. Magicka morph should still be undodgeable, but get reduced damage by 10%, maybe 15%.

That way you retained the hard counter to dodge builds while nerfing stam wardens (which would be what is needed).

If then shimmering shield got a slight magicka cost increase so stamdens lose a bit of their ranged immunity and magdens have increased opportunity cost, the combination would have had:
- an effect on the stamden issue
- a tolerable effect on magdens
- retaining unique playstyles for both classes.

But no, they did nothing against stamdens and removed feasibility of magdens. Why play a magden now that every other class can do a better job, except for buffing a ball group?

You do not address overperforming/underperforming abilities by making them entirely ignore defensive mechanics. Hard counters are bad. Period. And birds are anything but underperfoming even when they are dodgeable. Its the hardest hitting spammable in the game.

Seriously what is up with everyone asking for hard counters against everything. Is it really so bad to have to think and work to get a kill? Why does everyone need to have the mentality of "i cant fight this guy so give me something to abuse him"?

Birds were a hard counter to one defensive ability. Shields and block rendered birds uneffective.

Together with the other changes to abilities going through dodge, dodge now has very very few counters, making dodge the problem instead of birds.

If you read what I wrote, I actually proposed a layered action on birds, adjusting the ability to make it fit into the game.

Your reply didn't address anything of what I have put up for consideration. So... thanks for making me waste time on you, I guess...

Yeah it's not like warden can't do anything against block right?
Wardens have everything to wreck stamchars, major defile, great healing, undodgeable and unblockable skills and enough mobility to catch them
Hard countering the main defence of medium armor with your spammable is stupid especially when you have an unblockable/ undodgeable AoE nuke that hits for +7k every 3 seconds and ignores LoS+ z Axis

Stamina wardens - yes. Please read what I would have proposed in case I would have an impact on balance changes.

All ground abilities ignore z-axis.

Major defile from wardens is countered by exactly the same defense: dodge.

Not in the way shalks ignore it. Shalks will hit you on top of a tower if someone is using them on the ground floor.

A damage reduction won't change a thing it makes warden even worse in pve. And in pvp you get hit 6.5k birds instead of 7.2k birds, great that will give me one more gcd to think about where to rez.

Joy_Division · January 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@Joy_Division

I agree with your statement, but balance decisions should be done around the top players in my opinion. If you use the base skill level of the average player in ESO for balancing it would be ridiculous.

OK, but a top 1% player will get more DPS playing any other class than a warden and a top 1% player will be a more lethal PvP opponent playing another spec than a magicka Warden.

Have to disagree with the PvP part.
Magwarden is a genuinely strong spec, atm you have atleast 3 encounters you win by default, magnb, stamplar and stamsorc in open world builds + low chances of dying to magsorcs due to shimmering shield.
Or check how pelican played his warden in the duel tournament. He was one reason for the lack of stamchars in the tournament.

Magwarden might be worse than stamwarden but it's still ahead of most other specs.

Not when Shimmering Shield gets nerfed.