Bye Warden

Didgerion

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

Magica warden was never good in PVP - I mean solo good.

My mag sorc never died in 1v1 encounters against magica warden - seemed quite balanced when solo.

xaraan

In the end, the bird skill just needs to be completely reworked. It serves no use in either pvp or pve over other skills you could put on your bar.

Waffennacht

Didgerion wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

Magica warden was never good in PVP - I mean solo good.

My mag sorc never died in 1v1 encounters against magica warden - seemed quite balanced when solo.

Which is why I'm flabbergasted by this change. I mean I get a change that would affect Stam warden, but a straight up nerf to mag and while still having absolutely horrendous PvE performance?

Derra

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Warden was/is conceptually broken. I don´t think undodgeable spammable should have been ever been a thing to begin with.
Now they can begin adressing the classes shortcomings.

Problem is people will gravitate now to shimmering complaints when they get killed. 3 months and a shimmering nerf later, magWardens will be bottom tier, while stamWardens still own the place. Yay, forum balance!

People already complain about shimmering.

Shimmering mainly counters full ranged builds - that are mostly magica.
Birds countered stamina mostly.

The magica players will continue to cry because shimmering is still overperforming for mag and stam warden against projectile based builds.

Not that there will be many magica players after this patch basically being only about passive stamina buffs.

ak_pvp

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

TO ALL MAGDENS:

If birds are so bad vs pulse, why would you want to change the delay. Wouldn't it just be a worse copy of pulse? Both unreflectable, both dodgable, but one provides the added effects of destro.

Why do wardens run both. I'll give you a hint. Delayed burst.

They ran both because it's literally the only way to fill your bar

Edit: that burst combo was good against pros for about the first two weeks, after that only potatoes die to it

I'm guessing you mean passives. But surely something else can fit the bill. And I am pretty sure that is same with all burst combos. ProvPro is decided by who makes the mistake first. My burst on sorcs can be avoided, same on my DK, same on warden, same on NB. It shouldn't require mechanic skipping abilities to work. Which is why I am all for powerlash being dodgable, for example.

You talk a lot about magWarden. What's the character name of yours on PC EU. You seem to be an expert on the class, so you might can give mine some tips, great master of wisdom?

I don't play one, not going to pretend to, but I have played long enough to know that delayed burst is good, take sorc, and hard counters are for nubs who can't time or outplay. Seeing you in BGs with your premade and your tanky bird spam really tells me a lot

cazlonb16_ESO

Derra wrote: »

Warden was/is conceptually broken. I don´t think undodgeable spammable should have been ever been a thing to begin with.
Now they can begin adressing the classes shortcomings.

And just how many players will wait the year or two, until ZOS actually get around to doing that ?

OtarTheMad

Kilandros wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

Omg overreact much. If you needed undodgeable birds to perform as a MagWarden in PvP that tells me that you were basically just surfing around Xv1ing solo/small scale players.

First off read my material and realize I'm a solo PvP and BG player.

Second, it's not an isolated change. They strictly made mag warden worse. Meaning Stam warden, and especially mag NB are superior choices. Why purposely play a worse class/resource?

Next, even running a non -tank/healer warden was for PvP, now that everything a mag warden does is slow, it's now the most easily avoided class. On console someone roll dodging to the side is an affective counter to shalk, now it also counters birds. Just roll dodging alone counters everything a mag warden does. This of course only pertains to small scale.

In fact I'd say this has more of an affect on solo/small scale than zerging

Please. Just please. Magwarden can hit 50k Magicka and 3.5k spell damage while having BiS magicka AND stamina sustain and heals. Please cry me a river.

And yet if any other class does that they are top dog in PvE and PvP and yet when Warden does it they are still below average for DPS in PvE and only (pretty much) have burst in PvP, without the burst those are basically just numbers.

A lot of players agree that Warden needs to be reworked, even those who agree that birds needed the change (like me).

Yolokin_Swagonborn

In what world do you think un-dodgable birds is what made warden so strong?

Derra

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Warden was/is conceptually broken. I don´t think undodgeable spammable should have been ever been a thing to begin with.
Now they can begin adressing the classes shortcomings.

And just how many players will wait the year or two, until ZOS actually get around to doing that ?

I think we´re going to see various class changes with the next chapter if i didn´t misunderstand that. Going from the fact that warden was bottomtier pve dps for 1 year then i think this will be adressed.

Minalan

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

In what world do you think un-dodgable birds is what made warden so strong?

It was never the birds. Those were just mostly annoying when getting chased by a Zerg full of people spamming it. You could always LOS and run for it.

Shimmering shield is and will continue to be the problem. The shield amount is not affected by battle spirit to my knowledge, and it should be. Just like every other damage shield, attack, and heal in the game.

OtarTheMad

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Warden was/is conceptually broken. I don´t think undodgeable spammable should have been ever been a thing to begin with.
Now they can begin adressing the classes shortcomings.

And just how many players will wait the year or two, until ZOS actually get around to doing that ?

I agree and that's just it, not everyone loves theorycrafting and trying to make an under performing class work when you have other options. Most people just play this to escape, have fun, after work/school relaxation and don't want to spend hours trying out different set/ability combos to see what is optimal. And that's perfectly fine but it just means that Wardens might take a popularity hit until it gets looked at and reworked a bit.

Mojomonkeyman

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

TO ALL MAGDENS:

If birds are so bad vs pulse, why would you want to change the delay. Wouldn't it just be a worse copy of pulse? Both unreflectable, both dodgable, but one provides the added effects of destro.

Why do wardens run both. I'll give you a hint. Delayed burst.

They ran both because it's literally the only way to fill your bar

Edit: that burst combo was good against pros for about the first two weeks, after that only potatoes die to it

I'm guessing you mean passives. But surely something else can fit the bill. And I am pretty sure that is same with all burst combos. ProvPro is decided by who makes the mistake first. My burst on sorcs can be avoided, same on my DK, same on warden, same on NB. It shouldn't require mechanic skipping abilities to work. Which is why I am all for powerlash being dodgable, for example.

You talk a lot about magWarden. What's the character name of yours on PC EU. You seem to be an expert on the class, so you might can give mine some tips, great master of wisdom?

I don't play one, not going to pretend to, but I have played long enough to know that delayed burst is good, take sorc, and hard counters are for nubs who can't time or outplay. Seeing you in BGs with your premade and your tanky bird spam really tells me a lot

Look, thats what I thought - "tanky birdspam" without me having ever birds slotted... I think you are not in the position to comment on the class since your input seems to be based more on vague assumptions than actual observation or first-hand experience.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Minalan wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

In what world do you think un-dodgable birds is what made warden so strong?

It was never the birds. Those were just mostly annoying when getting chased by a Zerg full of people spamming it. You could always LOS and run for it.

Shimmering shield is and will continue to be the problem. The shield amount is not affected by battle spirit, and it should be. Just like every other damage shield, attack, and heal in the game.

Also shimmering shield treats birds as projectiles and absorbs them. But all other abilities that either reflect or absorb projectiles do not. Makes a ton of sense.

Didgerion

Waffennacht wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

Magica warden was never good in PVP - I mean solo good.

My mag sorc never died in 1v1 encounters against magica warden - seemed quite balanced when solo.

Which is why I'm flabbergasted by this change. I mean I get a change that would affect Stam warden, but a straight up nerf to mag and while still having absolutely horrendous PvE performance?

Well I think more adjustments will come to it. They could not increase the cliff damage while it was undodgable.
Now they can look to increase its damage - or lower the cost since it is not a guaranteed hit anymore. And that will increase PVE dps as well.

I guess the answer is as always - patience my friend.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

The nightmare is over.


If there are any more ways in the game to abuse or bug out dodge chance, then those people will be very happy with this change.

How it feels running away from a zerg.

Waffennacht

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

The nightmare is over.

Lmfao, ok, that got me

cazlonb16_ESO

Derra wrote: »

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Warden was/is conceptually broken. I don´t think undodgeable spammable should have been ever been a thing to begin with.
Now they can begin adressing the classes shortcomings.

And just how many players will wait the year or two, until ZOS actually get around to doing that ?

I think we´re going to see various class changes with the next chapter if i didn´t misunderstand that. Going from the fact that warden was bottomtier pve dps for 1 year then i think this will be adressed.

Wardens have some of the more complex abilities in the game, like Templars. Judging by ZOS' ongoing struggle with the design and implementation of Templar skills ( just read up on the current Puncturing Strikes drama ), don't expect to see noticable improvements to wardens in 2018.

dodgehopper_ESO

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Warden was/is conceptually broken. I don´t think undodgeable spammable should have been ever been a thing to begin with.
Now they can begin adressing the classes shortcomings.

Problem is people will gravitate now to shimmering complaints when they get killed. 3 months and a shimmering nerf later, magWardens will be bottom tier, while stamWardens still own the place. Yay, forum balance!

I find most complaints about Warden to be preposterous. I mained a Templar for years and I definitely have skin in the game when it comes to the Templar class. My Templar build has had to change in such drastic and fundamental ways so many times it is barely recognizable from the start. I recognize that a lot of the elements of Templar of yore exist in Warden in the now. This doesn't hurt me. I enjoy Warden and I think overall it is how the other classes should be built. So many people seem to have a highly myopic view of the classes. I believe this happens in large part because most people focus down on one specific character and lack real understanding of the others, or at the very least they lack sympathy. I have tried to NEVER fall into that trap. When this game released I was pushing for the improvement of the Nightblade class which badly needed it. I wanted them to make DK's less overpowered with respect to other classes but I didn't want them to spike the class into the garbage can (Think back to Dunmer-DK-Perma-doublebats/chains/talons w/ dress+shield).

It is true that Wardens have shimmering shield but I fail to see how this skill is definitively superior to DK wings. They are similar but different skills that operate in different ways. I've given suggestions in the past how to make skills like this (and 1H+Shield reflect) better in the grand balance of things but the idea of a reflect chance versus absolute reflect never took traction with the Developers.

It is also true that the flying cliff racer raptors or doom are undodgeable but there are plenty of other skills which are undodgeable. Some of the Sorcerer AOE builds are insanely undodgeable and if you don't roll out you melt unless you are a supertanker. If you're in a confined space - too bad. Sorcerers also have mages fury and implosion both of which make it easy to farm kills, in fact far easier to farm kills that raptors. I'm tired of seeing people talk about Sorcerers having it unfair with respect to warden when they not only have this skill but streak, defensive rune, etc. Lets get real people. The real problem with Warden is that they've messed up a lot of the original classes abilities. I personally look at the (Stamina) Templar as a steaming pile of *** now even though I love it and I look forward to the day it will be a fun class to play again.

Balance is not in a vacuum and you can not compare one skill to the next. Warden can get a decent burst if you line up the right abilities in a row but I would argue that Sorcerer outputs significantly more damage and has amazing burst as well as deceptively sneaky abilities. This is in fact the problem Templar has faced. Templar abilities are so bright and shiny that everyone notices when they die from these abilities. Sorcerer abilities tend to be highly deceptive and so many people do not notice what is happening. I believe this to be the root of a lot of the vitriol coming from the Sorcerer background. Before people bust a gasket I think Sorcs are awesome. I was very pro-Stamina Sorc in the days when such a thing was not so advantageous. I'm not saying tweaking might not be in order but I do think what should be going on is improvements in other classes.

Zer0oo

Funny to see players who were so strongly in favor of undodgeable mag dk skills are now so strong in favor of dodgeable warden skills.

But i really would like to see a speed up of the birds so they do not take ages to hit even if it means that the burst combo goes down by a little.

Bfish22090

OdinForge wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

Omg overreact much. If you needed undodgeable birds to perform as a MagWarden in PvP that tells me that you were basically just surfing around Xv1ing solo/small scale players.

This.

Try playing mag warden, it's very tough you potato

ak_pvp

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

TO ALL MAGDENS:

If birds are so bad vs pulse, why would you want to change the delay. Wouldn't it just be a worse copy of pulse? Both unreflectable, both dodgable, but one provides the added effects of destro.

Why do wardens run both. I'll give you a hint. Delayed burst.

They ran both because it's literally the only way to fill your bar

Edit: that burst combo was good against pros for about the first two weeks, after that only potatoes die to it

I'm guessing you mean passives. But surely something else can fit the bill. And I am pretty sure that is same with all burst combos. ProvPro is decided by who makes the mistake first. My burst on sorcs can be avoided, same on my DK, same on warden, same on NB. It shouldn't require mechanic skipping abilities to work. Which is why I am all for powerlash being dodgable, for example.

You talk a lot about magWarden. What's the character name of yours on PC EU. You seem to be an expert on the class, so you might can give mine some tips, great master of wisdom?

I don't play one, not going to pretend to, but I have played long enough to know that delayed burst is good, take sorc, and hard counters are for nubs who can't time or outplay. Seeing you in BGs with your premade and your tanky bird spam really tells me a lot

Look, thats what I thought - "tanky birdspam" without me having ever birds slotted... I think you are not in the position to comment on the class since your input seems to be based more on vague assumptions than actual observation or first-hand experience.

Not really played proper since new year, but I have 100% been birded by you before.

And if you don't slot it. Then why complain. If you are one of the wardens who slots it only for passives, because pulse is oh so better, then why complain?

Shalk is fine, trees are fine, dot is fine. Hell even the Defile can be dealt with. But bird is unreasonable as it was, and still provides a good burst setup. It's not like I have no exp of the class. I played it in early morrow, but due to lack of slots and having to have mag/stam of each class at diff race I rerolled an sdk.

Abysswarrior45

Game needs counterplay. Block being the only counter to a skill is only reliable for zerglings and tanks. Try playing as medium stamplar or medium dk or medium stam sorc against a good magden with a fat magic pool and fat shields. Try eating through stalks with that weird unpredictable hitbox into bird spams and a soul assault that deals 18k damage THROUGH block. The class was over-performing and so is stamden. No class should have access to the amount of major and minor buffs both magden and stamden do. Now they need to fix this tank meta.

Mojomonkeyman

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

TO ALL MAGDENS:

If birds are so bad vs pulse, why would you want to change the delay. Wouldn't it just be a worse copy of pulse? Both unreflectable, both dodgable, but one provides the added effects of destro.

Why do wardens run both. I'll give you a hint. Delayed burst.

They ran both because it's literally the only way to fill your bar

Edit: that burst combo was good against pros for about the first two weeks, after that only potatoes die to it

I'm guessing you mean passives. But surely something else can fit the bill. And I am pretty sure that is same with all burst combos. ProvPro is decided by who makes the mistake first. My burst on sorcs can be avoided, same on my DK, same on warden, same on NB. It shouldn't require mechanic skipping abilities to work. Which is why I am all for powerlash being dodgable, for example.

You talk a lot about magWarden. What's the character name of yours on PC EU. You seem to be an expert on the class, so you might can give mine some tips, great master of wisdom?

I don't play one, not going to pretend to, but I have played long enough to know that delayed burst is good, take sorc, and hard counters are for nubs who can't time or outplay. Seeing you in BGs with your premade and your tanky bird spam really tells me a lot

Look, thats what I thought - "tanky birdspam" without me having ever birds slotted... I think you are not in the position to comment on the class since your input seems to be based more on vague assumptions than actual observation or first-hand experience.

Not really played proper since new year, but I have 100% been birded by you before.

And if you don't slot it. Then why complain. If you are one of the wardens who slots it only for passives, because pulse is oh so better, then why complain?

Shalk is fine, trees are fine, dot is fine. Hell even the Defile can be dealt with. But bird is unreasonable as it was, and still provides a good burst setup. It's not like I have no exp of the class. I played it in early morrow, but due to lack of slots and having to have mag/stam of each class at diff race I rerolled an sdk.

Oh dear, there it goes. I never used birds in BGs, never. I never complained about birds being dodgable, please quote me on my complaint if you accuse me of doing.

However, I do think you have no idea what you are talking about. I do think you have no place here giving balancing comments on a class you don't seem to 1) understand and 2) play. To be honest judging by your performnce on your main class (magDK?) I'd even doubt you posess any knowledge on that one.

So why the hell do you keep talking about stuff you don't understand?

Waffennacht

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Game needs counterplay. Block being the only counter to a skill is only reliable for zerglings and tanks. Try playing as medium stamplar or medium dk or medium stam sorc against a good magden with a fat magic pool and fat shields. Try eating through stalks with that weird unpredictable hitbox into bird spams and a soul assault that deals 18k damage THROUGH block. The class was over-performing and so is stamden. No class should have access to the amount of major and minor buffs both magden and stamden do. Now they need to fix this tank meta.

That's a soul assault problem, not a magden problem.

You can Backlash + SA
Or
Curse + SA

For just as effective combos, cuz SA

Jjitsuboy98

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

I don't even use birds.......

Jjitsuboy98

Jjitsuboy98 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

I don't even use birds.......

Oh yeah you might be right about Magicka

dodgehopper_ESO

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Game needs counterplay. Block being the only counter to a skill is only reliable for zerglings and tanks. Try playing as medium stamplar or medium dk or medium stam sorc against a good magden with a fat magic pool and fat shields. Try eating through stalks with that weird unpredictable hitbox into bird spams and a soul assault that deals 18k damage THROUGH block. The class was over-performing and so is stamden. No class should have access to the amount of major and minor buffs both magden and stamden do. Now they need to fix this tank meta.

Actually many classes have a wide array of major and minor buffs and some of them apply in much more efficient ways. Some classes are less efficient in this regard and I believe this is the greater source of concern. Warden does have a broad toolkit but its efficiency in this regard (of what can actually be fired off reasonably) is not as high as some other abilities. Consider for instance the efficiency of a skill like Ritual vs. Betty Netch. Netch is cheaper but in terms of opportunity cost its actually weaker and does fewer things. Ritual on the other hand is fire and forget for the most part. I'm not saying there might be some wiggle room here but if there is wiggle I'd suggest diversity should be offered the classes that need it. Warden is all about piling things up and timing. Sorcerer is like this as well but far more adaptive. I think its pretty telling that very few people seem to notice this fact.

The one truth about Warden is that it is a tanky/healing class. I personally think my Magplar has better burst than my MagDen, and I'm not entirely convinced that the MagDen is more tanky although that might very well be. The mobility certainly helps but that is a commonly known problem of the Templar to begin with that and its herky jerky flashy style.

WuffyCerulei

I only used birds on my magden in pvp for that reason. I'm just gonna use crushing shock now *shrugs*

Lexxypwns

I mean, I’m hitting 9k bird every day on people and their only counter is to hold block so my unblockable fissure gets into range to nuke them anyway

Waffennacht

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I mean, I’m hitting 9k bird every day on people and their only counter is to hold block so my unblockable fissure gets into range to nuke them anyway

Come on, I know what you're running and that's definitely not typical

Edit: I mean the set up is not typical, not the damage