Make Crystal Frags Great Again!

krathos · January 2018

make frags stun again and i dont even play sorc.

Lord-Otto · January 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Frags needs stun+the extra damage. Mines needs exponential damage increase per mine. Streak needs a lot of cost reduce, but some way for melee to catch up that isn't gapcloser spam.

streak doesn't get cost reduc until Shade can be places more than 8m from where you stand. It also doesn't get cost reduction until MagPlar can have minor expedition inside their ritual or something like that

Shade is a bug that may or may not get fixed. Templars are not designed to be mobile. Sorcs are, yet they get punished for moving and completely countered by any immobile class with a gapcloser.

In the past I'm pretty sure that was the vision the Devs had for Mag Sorcs. They were a highly mobile class thanks to Streaking everywhere and had weaker shields in general, but didn't get oneshot when their shields were down. Streak now punishes your Magicka for using it (even when it fails to work), and if your shields fall off, you get killed almost immediately by decent players.

Add to that that unlike every other class in the game, we have a tremendous windup for our burst. We need four global cooldowns to prepare, and if only one is wasted, our burst won't kill. Other classes can just wait for their stunning ult and use their on-demand burst skill, like Wrecking Blow or Merciless.
Also, we have zero, ZERO sustained pressure.

That makes it easy to see why sorcs should be able to kite. We need a sliver of air to prepare our burst. Doesn't happen with constant enemies in your face. ZOS really forgot the initial idea, the design for that class.

It would also help if our shields would actually protect us for four seconds. But two shields, each being taken off with one la+skill, means our lousy armor has to do the rest. We know how that works.
It's crazy that people still complain about shield stacking. Those people just ignore why it's needed.

So, there's three solutions, though you can mix them.
1. Increase mobility. Immunity to snares, better and less punishing gap opener (Streak). Let us kite the needed burst preparation.
2. Increase shield strength or armor protection. Make preparing the long burst less risky. Personally don't like this too much.
3. Increase burst (Frags). My favorite. If we are to wind up a lengthy burst and expose ourselves in the process, I expect a reward. I expect even heavy armor to die from my burst with ultimate if the opponent didn't mitigate with block and dodge and so. At the moment, this isn't the case and we're stuck with no pressure, avoidable and low burst and no good punishers. To elaborate: you know a class is in trouble when it relies on an ultimate to kill that doesn't synergize at all (Dawnbreaker), because the provided tools are insufficient.

Minalan · January 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

My main is not a sorcerer.

Revert Frags back to it's original state before the nerfs.

It's fine that classes have good abilities as long as I have my own.

Game was so much better and more interesting then.

Come on ZOS! @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

ZOS actually listens to @Joy_Division. Joy was mentioned by name in the last stream, when JD says something it’s usually right!

Neloth · January 2018

One more time to keep this thread on top: buff crystal frags pls!!!! give it 25% dmg on proc or stun, or better both.

There is no shame in reverting bad changes, just do what community asks. There is zero nerf sorc threads for a reason right now, the class is in a bad state.

Why assassin's will (main magblade proc and burst skill) is getting constant buffs (cast time gone, now new mechanics), while having 24-30k tooltip (compared to frags with 17-19k tooltip) and moreover giving them 8% more dmg?

And pls don't say "assassin's will is so hard to use, bla-bla-bla, and frags are free proc", you will just look stupid. I would gladly exchange frags for assassin's will in current state, to get those 30k procs after 5 weaves (an after new changes I can exchange my frags + curse for it, lol). Really, you can proc it more and more reliably, it has 30-40% more dmg and hits harder than an ult.

The only thing which was making frags special was it's stun and moderate dmg, but now it's gone.

Ultimate_Overlord · January 2018

Frags have to get their cc back and here is why:
How many times do you kill any half decent player without ulting (or without ganking them)?(i mean, medium builds can sometimes die to a bunch of undodgable dmg but thats another problem in itself) After zos nerfed so many non-ult skills and buffed so many ults/introduced new super strong ones, made defense so incredibly easy, pvp started revolving around ults. Why are warden and nb the current top tier open world classes? Largely cause they have strong ults that they can use very often. Imagine if incap and nova switched places, templar would get significantly stronger and stamblade would be pretty crappy. Ults are the skills that can heavily punish players for their misplays, skills that make a big impact on the fight. Sorc was the class that broke the monotony of that kind of gameplay. Frags were one of the easiest skills to avoid but you got punished hard for not mitigating them in some way. Now sorc is the same as other classes, a "stall or do something equally irrelevant until you get an ult" class. For the sake of fun, interactive and skillful pvp zos need to bring back frag cc and bring up the overall power level of non ult skills.

Dracane · January 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.

This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.

@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.

So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.

Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.

Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.

And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.

But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?

Beardimus · January 2018

Without the CF stun its basically death by ultimate, that's my biggest issue with the change.
Before you could combo up, now its very rigid.

And rune cage delay on cast / Animation is pony

Minalan · January 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.

This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.

@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.

So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.

Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.

Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.

And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.

But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?

Good question, I have no idea. I thought that since it wasn’t reflectable anymore (scales doesn’t) they classified it as a beam and not a projectile?

Chances are it does activate shimmering, that’s P2WinWarden as usual though.

Dracane · January 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.

This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.

@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.

So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.

Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.

Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.

And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.

But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?

Good question, I have no idea. I thought that since it wasn’t reflectable anymore (scales doesn’t) they classified it as a beam and not a projectile?

Chances are it does activate shimmering, that’s P2WinWarden as usual though.

Force pulse is something in between now. It's flagged as unreflectable, but still is a projectile.
It's damage is still reduced by this sword and shield passive that reduces projectile damage by 16% or so.
It can be absorbed by ball of lightning, which is buggy anyway. It also absorbs beams like soul assault

I will test this vs the next warden I see and pay close attention. But I am certain it is absorbed.

Ultimate_Overlord · January 2018

It is absorbed by shimmering, all non beams with 10m+ range are, even steel tornado lul

Dracane · January 2018

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

It is absorbed by shimmering, all non beams with 10m+ range are, even steel tornado lul

There we have it then

ArchMikem · January 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Another candidate would be major breach.

"Hitting a target with a Crystal Fragment pierces their defense, applying major breach and major fracture for 5 seconds."

Lord-Otto · January 2018

Doesn't change the fact that tooltip is indeed nearly the same as Force Pulse, making it viable.

Was it Gilliam who suggested it?
Reach base damage should be buffed to current Master Reach value and base cost slightly reduced. THEN Master should reduce cost even more to current value, and it should also buff the DoT a bit.
I think this would make non-Master builds viable without de-valuing the vDSA grind completely.

Malamar1229 · January 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.

This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.

@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.

So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.

Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.

Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.

And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.

But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?

@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.

You shouldn't get upset and block people talking about this, having something comparable is good for build diversity. Also crushing shock isn't reflectable so I get shut down by good magdks with my setup. It's balance.
There should be trade offs.

In your case running pulse/shock you don't have a stun unless you slot rune cage. Personally, when I have an opportunity to fold two abilities into one bar slot, I take it. Precious bar slots. I get a knock back (since I love playing around bridges anyway) and a 5k fire dmg "spammable" that costs 2k magicka.

I also used to run Ball of Lightning for the same reason, it was like folding two abilities into one (escape and spell absorption).

Malamar1229 · January 2018

ArchMikem wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Another candidate would be major breach.

"Hitting a target with a Crystal Fragment pierces their defense, applying major breach and major fracture for 5 seconds."

I'd prefer major defile

Malamar1229 · January 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact that tooltip is indeed nearly the same as Force Pulse, making it viable.

Was it Gilliam who suggested it?
Reach base damage should be buffed to current Master Reach value and base cost slightly reduced. THEN Master should reduce cost even more to current value, and it should also buff the DoT a bit.
I think this would make non-Master builds viable without de-valuing the vDSA grind completely.

They could also add master weapons back to the end of campaign loot tables

MopeyHat · January 2018

Wish they gave all gap closers the fatigue cost stacks

Weps · January 2018

Agreed, without the stun component, damage needs to go higher.
I'd say even buff it a little ( from 10% to 25% )

Izaki · January 2018

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Baby steps my friend. Baby steps. ZOS said on their live stream that they read these and bring them to @ZOS_Wrobel

That's exactly my problem now. They read too much and that's what got the class nerfed in the first place.

They need to trust their own judgement on this because the community is still on the nerf train for sorcs. We are outnumbered my friend just like solo PVP and this is a situation where our skills cannot compensate for nerfs

But a list of suggestions which will never be heard
1. Frags return to their initial state
2. Ball of lightning absorbs all incoming projectiles to a duration similar to what warden has on shimmering shield
3. Boundless storm grants snare immunity for the same duration as forward momentum
4. Rune prison cost decreased by 50%
5. Dawnbreaker gets a magical damage morph

Yeah... But at this point, I say every single class in the game should have a snare removal tool.

And its only fair that if Dawnbreaker gets a magical damage morph that Ice Comet or Shooting Star deal physical damage.

Izaki · January 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My main is not a sorcerer.

Revert Frags back to it's original state before the nerfs.

It's fine that classes have good abilities as long as I have my own.

Game was so much better and more interesting then.

This is the way ZOS makes room for CP increases - if they don't nerf every class constantly then we'll actually start feeling stronger instead of weaker after a patch It's getting close to the anniversary of Homestead, and my Mag Sorc has lost a tremendous amount of DPS.

Oh god please no... I used to love my Mag Sorc prior to Homestead, but then groups of 8 Sorcs in raids took over and I haven't played that class in PvE since Morrowind dropped because I just couldn't stand it after not being able to bring my Stamblade into raids for 2 patches in a row because I had to play a Sorc.

Derra · January 2018

Malamar1229 wrote: »

@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.

Force pulse does more dmg than masterreach (unless you have literally 0 spelldmg and sub 40k magica in your build).
The more dmg your build stacks (maxmagica + spelldmg) the better forcepulse gets when comparing the two.

On a setup with julianos + amber fulldmg + dmg (mage or appr) mundus with clockword food compared to julianos + amber +1 domi both with backbar infused spelldmgglyph procced + major sorcery you will see roughly:
9800 masterreach vs 11000 pulse.

This is about the only semi sustainable setup where pulse has a comparable cost/dmg ratio to reach as reach is 10% cheaper than pulse.

If you get more dmg than this it favors pulse. If you get less dmg it favors reach.
Being dunmer greatly favors reach.
If you´re slotting rune cage to CC however there is no where it becomes mathematically advantageous to use the combination over ccing with reach (especially when you can replace the barslot with magelight).

Dracane · January 2018

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.

This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.

@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.

So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.

Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.

Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.

And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.

But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?

@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.

You shouldn't get upset and block people talking about this, having something comparable is good for build diversity. Also crushing shock isn't reflectable so I get shut down by good magdks with my setup. It's balance.
There should be trade offs.

In your case running pulse/shock you don't have a stun unless you slot rune cage. Personally, when I have an opportunity to fold two abilities into one bar slot, I take it. Precious bar slots. I get a knock back (since I love playing around bridges anyway) and a 5k fire dmg "spammable" that costs 2k magicka.

I also used to run Ball of Lightning for the same reason, it was like folding two abilities into one (escape and spell absorption).

I fell in love with streak as a stun actually

And I do not know what you do. But there is not a single scenario I have recreated, where destructive touch ever reaches a higher tooltip than force pulse. It's always lower. Not too much, but lower.

But Derra seems to have explained it already.

Lord-Otto · January 2018

Derra, Cage becomes mathematically superior when your opponent dodges or blocks Reach before Curse blows up.

Minalan · January 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.

This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.

@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.

So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.

Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.

Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.

And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.

But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?

@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.

You shouldn't get upset and block people talking about this, having something comparable is good for build diversity. Also crushing shock isn't reflectable so I get shut down by good magdks with my setup. It's balance.
There should be trade offs.

In your case running pulse/shock you don't have a stun unless you slot rune cage. Personally, when I have an opportunity to fold two abilities into one bar slot, I take it. Precious bar slots. I get a knock back (since I love playing around bridges anyway) and a 5k fire dmg "spammable" that costs 2k magicka.

I also used to run Ball of Lightning for the same reason, it was like folding two abilities into one (escape and spell absorption).

I fell in love with streak as a stun actually
And I do not know what you do. But there is not a single scenario I have recreated, where destructive touch ever reaches a higher tooltip than force pulse. It's always lower. Not too much, but lower.

But Derra seems to have explained it already.

I always said it was just competitive, not better.

So last night, my frags are hitting for something like 5-6K on average in Cyrodiil.

Of course I could build for more, but then it wouldn’t be that MUCH more, and then I couldn’t sustain. I don’t know how to describe this except, the skill is pretty horrendous right now. This needs to be fixed ASAP.

Dracane · January 2018

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.

This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.

@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.

So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.

Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.

Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.

And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.

But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?

@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.

You shouldn't get upset and block people talking about this, having something comparable is good for build diversity. Also crushing shock isn't reflectable so I get shut down by good magdks with my setup. It's balance.
There should be trade offs.

In your case running pulse/shock you don't have a stun unless you slot rune cage. Personally, when I have an opportunity to fold two abilities into one bar slot, I take it. Precious bar slots. I get a knock back (since I love playing around bridges anyway) and a 5k fire dmg "spammable" that costs 2k magicka.

I also used to run Ball of Lightning for the same reason, it was like folding two abilities into one (escape and spell absorption).

I fell in love with streak as a stun actually
And I do not know what you do. But there is not a single scenario I have recreated, where destructive touch ever reaches a higher tooltip than force pulse. It's always lower. Not too much, but lower.

But Derra seems to have explained it already.

I always said it was just competitive, not better.

So last night, my frags are hitting for something like 5-6K on average in Cyrodiil.

Of course I could build for more, but then it wouldn’t be that MUCH more, and then I couldn’t sustain. I don’t know how to describe this except, the skill is pretty horrendous right now. This needs to be fixed ASAP.

Definately true. I'm certain I run a much more damaging build than you do and I still rarely exceed these numbers. Well, I have removed it from my bar by now.
It's very weak and useless imo. Sorcerer is the lowest burst class now

what a joke.

Beardimus · January 2018

Dracane wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Please just give them their stun back. The patch was such a huge nerf for magsorcs who doesn't have a master Destro staff.

This master touch is so overrated, I can't hear it anymore. I block everyone instantly who says, that it hits hard or something similar. No, it does not. It hits for even less than force pulse.

@Malamar1229 has the tooltip up to 10K with the master staff, so half that with battle spirit, then add in fire damage against vampires (read: half of Cyrodiil), then throw in the DOT.

So. It’s competitive, but you’re right. It’s definitely not an end all. It’s reflectable, where FP isn’t. It does only one element, so it can’t proc minor vulnerability. It’s also fodder for shimmering shield, which FP isn’t.

Plus, I know a few dual wield Sorcs still tearing it up out there. Bless you guys for sticking with it during our worst.

Competitive for staff conditions, yes. And the dot is replaced every time you recast the ability. So in case you spam it, the dot will never even tick once and even if, the dot is pitiful like all non-class magicka dots.

And even if half of Cyrodiil are vampires, not all of them are stage 4 vampires. Some choose to reduce it to stage 1 for the time being and others may choose only stage 2 for the regen.
Destructive touch doesn't even come close to what crystal shard used to be and if people say this was a buff for Sorcs, then you are wrong.

But wait, you said Force Pulse does not proc shimmering shield ? I usually avoid using it vs shimmering. But I am quite certain, that it does proc it and is fully absorbed by it. Force pulse is reflectable, put is still absorbable by ball of lightning and defensive stance. So why wouldn't it ?

@Dracane it's not about the dot and it's not about spamming. It's about a burst set up. Yes, the cost is cheaper than crushing shock and the dmg tool tip is comparable if not more. What is for pulse on average? 3k per element? 9k dmg versus my 10k and a stun. Even if pulse is more dmg, I run reach for the stun and suits my build. Play defensively in open world and go in for quick kills and get out.

You shouldn't get upset and block people talking about this, having something comparable is good for build diversity. Also crushing shock isn't reflectable so I get shut down by good magdks with my setup. It's balance.
There should be trade offs.

In your case running pulse/shock you don't have a stun unless you slot rune cage. Personally, when I have an opportunity to fold two abilities into one bar slot, I take it. Precious bar slots. I get a knock back (since I love playing around bridges anyway) and a 5k fire dmg "spammable" that costs 2k magicka.

I also used to run Ball of Lightning for the same reason, it was like folding two abilities into one (escape and spell absorption).

I fell in love with streak as a stun actually
And I do not know what you do. But there is not a single scenario I have recreated, where destructive touch ever reaches a higher tooltip than force pulse. It's always lower. Not too much, but lower.

But Derra seems to have explained it already.

I always said it was just competitive, not better.

So last night, my frags are hitting for something like 5-6K on average in Cyrodiil.

Of course I could build for more, but then it wouldn’t be that MUCH more, and then I couldn’t sustain. I don’t know how to describe this except, the skill is pretty horrendous right now. This needs to be fixed ASAP.

Definately true. I'm certain I run a much more damaging build than you do and I still rarely exceed these numbers. Well, I have removed it from my bar by now.
It's very weak and useless imo. Sorcerer is the lowest burst class now what a joke.

Our problem is this is the truth right, and this thread has many of the top sorcs agreeing on the point that Frag Nerf has tipped the scales too far.

Yet if I did a poll now of should Sorcs get a further Nerf I think the majority of players and forum users would say yes.

They have a binary view, and that noise is why ZOS reacted and took on Sorcs.

So the key is how do we drown out the NerfSorc brigade Ro actually get some balance back?

Derra · January 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

Our problem is this is the truth right, and this thread has many of the top sorcs agreeing on the point that Frag Nerf has tipped the scales too far.

Yet if I did a poll now of should Sorcs get a further Nerf I think the majority of players and forum users would say yes.

They have a binary view, and that noise is why ZOS reacted and took on Sorcs.

So the key is how do we drown out the NerfSorc brigade Ro actually get some balance back?

It´s not possible at this point in my opinion.

People always complained about not being able to kill sorcs (not about their particularly powerful offense - it never really was outside of petbuilds).
Yet zenimax went the route of nerfing offense passively (shadowmundus, dmg sets, sustain nerf in morrowind) and for sorc directly (numerous CF nerfs - the classes signature offensive skill).

Now we have a class that´s ill equipped offensively but people still whine about the class because the complaints have been about survivability in the first place.
Yet sorc is in no position to take the necessary hit to survivability (getting rid of shieldstacking), as doing that now would break the class completely.

tl:dr zos misinterpreted complaints about sorc nerfed the wrong part about the class

pzschrek · January 2018

Giving frags some love would help a bit.

I made a couple sorcs when I started the game last spring. (I mostly PVP). I don't like them much anymore in either PVP or PVE but it takes so long to grind a new toon and get then all skilled out that it has crossed my mind more than once to just turn off my ESO+ and stop playing. Nerf after nerf after nerf after nerf, and it sounds like the nerf train started even before then.

I do not like PVE and don't have many PVE friends, but I have to spend hours and hours developing PVE skill and relationships just so I can find a tank and a heal for VDSA someday maybe.

Or maybe I'll just do what everyone else did and roll a stamwarden.

Vaoh · January 2018

Izaki wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My main is not a sorcerer.

Revert Frags back to it's original state before the nerfs.

It's fine that classes have good abilities as long as I have my own.

Game was so much better and more interesting then.

This is the way ZOS makes room for CP increases - if they don't nerf every class constantly then we'll actually start feeling stronger instead of weaker after a patch It's getting close to the anniversary of Homestead, and my Mag Sorc has lost a tremendous amount of DPS.

Oh god please no... I used to love my Mag Sorc prior to Homestead, but then groups of 8 Sorcs in raids took over and I haven't played that class in PvE since Morrowind dropped because I just couldn't stand it after not being able to bring my Stamblade into raids for 2 patches in a row because I had to play a Sorc.

You aren’t missing anything lol. Mag Sorcs are just there for tons of Concussion procs and Conduit.... Minor Prophecy is nice too but not huge. With the need for us to constantly keep up Off-Balance home, Mag Sorc lost its main group utility

Yeah there were some pretty large balancing issues back then lol. Mag Sorc was too good but moreso it was that others weren’t good enough at least imo. Basically every Mag Sorc class DPS skill has gotten its damaged nerfed since then and Morrowind sustain hit them hard....

We might see some of that same 6-8 out of 8 DPS situation next patch with Mag NB in certain trials. Pretty sure Stamina is still higher DPS but idk. At least in vAS we’ll see all Mag NBs.

JobooAGS · January 2018

Vaoh wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My main is not a sorcerer.

Revert Frags back to it's original state before the nerfs.

It's fine that classes have good abilities as long as I have my own.

Game was so much better and more interesting then.

This is the way ZOS makes room for CP increases - if they don't nerf every class constantly then we'll actually start feeling stronger instead of weaker after a patch It's getting close to the anniversary of Homestead, and my Mag Sorc has lost a tremendous amount of DPS.

Oh god please no... I used to love my Mag Sorc prior to Homestead, but then groups of 8 Sorcs in raids took over and I haven't played that class in PvE since Morrowind dropped because I just couldn't stand it after not being able to bring my Stamblade into raids for 2 patches in a row because I had to play a Sorc.

You aren’t missing anything lol. Mag Sorcs are just there for tons of Concussion procs and Conduit.... Minor Prophecy is nice too but not huge. With the need for us to constantly keep up Off-Balance home, Mag Sorc lost its main group utility

Yeah there were some pretty large balancing issues back then lol. Mag Sorc was too good but moreso it was that others weren’t good enough at least imo. Basically every Mag Sorc class DPS skill has gotten its damaged nerfed since then and Morrowind sustain hit them hard....

We might see some of that same 6-8 out of 8 DPS situation next patch with Mag NB in certain trials. Pretty sure Stamina is still higher DPS but idk. At least in vAS we’ll see all Mag NBs.

buff ranged stam, magplar and mag dk?