PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones

Asardes · January 2018

Nature's Gift passive is only useful for recovering resources if you have allies close to you. For example it wouldn't work when off-tanking adds far from group. I will not build the Warden Tank right away, since I've just started PvP on her - I don't bring my characters in group PvE support roles until they have AvA 10 - but the setup won't be radically different from what I use on DK. Probably 5 Ebon Armory 5 Torug's Pact 2 Lord Warden or something along those lines. Since magicka sustain is not such a big issue, due not having to spam ingenous shield, I don't need the Chocklethorn/Shadowrend combo. And since I plan leveling those AvA skills right before the patch hits, I'll be probably getting enough transmutation geodes to change every small armor piece from divines to sturdy, and fully absorb the increased costs on my DK build. I'm not really scared or anything after I did the math. And just for the record I'm fully able to tank older DLC dungeons on other classes than DK without difficulty. I'll revive my Sorcerer shield tank, and my NB dodge tank - he got my old Tava's after the shuffle change

Nolic1 · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

The skill advisor is to help players in guiding them to the to role not to hand hold them to the meta. The options in skills it offers is the ones that are ease of use nothing more. Just cause most offer Warhorn as a last skill on the list of option is to help guide them to skills that starter tanks should run in the game to help guide them. So just cause one skill is group support means nothing there are alot of dps options for some classes not all that offer some kind of group support as well in the skill offering and most of the healer ones do not even have warhorn as part of the skills for them.

Now I am not saying a tank can not use some support for the group they are the groups leader in most if not always cause they lead the group through the content have to know mechanic and things to call out so other know when to watch out for things. But here is the elephant in the room the is not just a PvP issue it is a PvE issue as well cause as many of you have stated not just here but this has always been the way or best strategy used in the meta. Well see because this is the only strategy being used it leaves no other strategies being learned and or used by the main stream cause its the only one known anywhere. The reason for this is most people look up ways to beat content and are hand held right to the meta strategy nothing else and being a Youtuber and content provider I am as much to blame as any of the other who offer guides to these runs cause we only show one way to complete the content and this leads to the one size fits all meta strategies many of us use.

Now before you say well that is cause its the best or only way I ask this how do you know have you tried others?

@Nolic1

I have tried other strategies. I've been fighting for the longest time for healtanks to become viable.

The problem is other means are not viable. Sorry bud, the reason other builds dont work is because the design is like a constrictor. Nothing else -works-. It's why the Meta is held to so ironclad in this game, and these changes only exaserbate this.

If people were truely able to run what they want in this game, you wouldn't be seeing the cult of personality, as much as I hate it. It's necessary.

You seem to be under the impression we have more choice than we do. We dont.

Heal tanks are alot of fun I agree and can be a blast to play to bad they do not fit into the meta though. As for your other statements I am sorry I do not believe there are no other ways to beat the content then the meta that the game currently has because I have tanked to many things with a 2-handed tank I was told does not work.

If you've beaten a vet trial, with a two-handed tank, you've either got hax, or you didn't do it. Like, period. No group could make, or would want to, that stupidity work.

If you've beat vet dungeons, depends on the dungeon. Your healer likely carried you.

Eitherway. You likely play on a low enough difficulty level that you can entertain these delusions, but that's all they are bud. Delusions. Get with the program.

You do not have to believe me but I do not believe you tried other strategies other wise you would of found other ways to beat the content. You sound like all the other I dealt with in EQ, WoW, DCUO, Vanguard, Terra, SwtoR and ever other mmo I have played that said the meta is the only way.

"Well If you dont believe me, I dont believe you!"

"Your just not trying hard enough!"

Spare me. As for 'you dont have to believe me' it's not like your going out of your way to provide video evidence or anything.

Also: Half the games you listed have class systems, meaning there isn't a problem there, that's just the optimal setup. And the reason it's a problem here and not there, is the game should offer alot more choice than it does. It's set up to offer that choice. Instead it does nothing.

Quite frankly, if you want a great example of what I want this game to be? Look at Secret World Legends, a game that takes a customizable base like this game and turns it into a much better game where many more setups are useable.

Oh yeah have a sword / shotgun tank on Secret World Legends I remade from the original game that I play and have tanked most content with. Also played GW2 and have a Celestial Guardian something many have never seen in GW2 but was a build I made there that was more of a jack of all trades but was made to be like a Paladin and have cleared everything upto the latest release including all the raid parts that came out.

In Both those game had many saying the same as you are here just cause something works a certain way or has not been tried or created yet does not mean it can not be done it just means no one has tried. I am sorry I got snarky bad day but I hear in alot of games certain things can only be done because of this and to let you know your right I have no way of proving I did tank AS, HA, AA, SO and Mol upto the final boss and even HoF on any difficulty with my 2 handed tank most where a pain and we wiped many time but had other skill set ups and things I would try to get through them including running sword and board back bar for other reasons besides block but mainly to apply Major Fracture and Major Breach cause in most of those cases did not have any nightblades or dk's who could.

Its not that its impossible its just never been done and or tried to be done with anything else. And trust me I know why the meta works as well as it does but that is one strategy that people found to be the best most fastest way to complete the content. There is many other ways and some times it takes a team working together helping each other to get the job done more then it is about being the best.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

retrokat wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

I agree that changing just for changing isn't a good thing, but I also agree that the actual tanking aspect of being a tank should be more of a challenge than it is now. We have to spec highly into the DPS role with specific setup for CP, gear and skill rotation, but any old guy can put on heavy armor and slot a taunt and tank 95 % of the content.

Preventing healers and tanks from focusing all their attention on group DPS and more on their specific role will also lower the ceiling towards the floor and prevent elite groups and guilds from dishing out DPS that's leagues above everyone else.

You want tanking to be *harder* and discourage 'any old guy' from putting on heavy armour and slotting a taunt to be a tank.. but there's already a huge shortage of PvE tanks. You rarely tank yourself, as you've said. But you want to make it MORE specialised, more boring and then expect that will make it more attractive as a role?

He tends to not make sense alot.

He stated he wants tanks to support less. I ask why then the skill advisor system advises tanks to have at least one team support ability.

He hasn't given me an answer yet.

The skill advisor is to help players in guiding them to the to role not to hand hold them to the meta. The options in skills it offers is the ones that are ease of use nothing more. Just cause most offer Warhorn as a last skill on the list of option is to help guide them to skills that starter tanks should run in the game to help guide them. So just cause one skill is group support means nothing there are alot of dps options for some classes not all that offer some kind of group support as well in the skill offering and most of the healer ones do not even have warhorn as part of the skills for them.

Now I am not saying a tank can not use some support for the group they are the groups leader in most if not always cause they lead the group through the content have to know mechanic and things to call out so other know when to watch out for things. But here is the elephant in the room the is not just a PvP issue it is a PvE issue as well cause as many of you have stated not just here but this has always been the way or best strategy used in the meta. Well see because this is the only strategy being used it leaves no other strategies being learned and or used by the main stream cause its the only one known anywhere. The reason for this is most people look up ways to beat content and are hand held right to the meta strategy nothing else and being a Youtuber and content provider I am as much to blame as any of the other who offer guides to these runs cause we only show one way to complete the content and this leads to the one size fits all meta strategies many of us use.

Now before you say well that is cause its the best or only way I ask this how do you know have you tried others?

@Nolic1

I have tried other strategies. I've been fighting for the longest time for healtanks to become viable.

The problem is other means are not viable. Sorry bud, the reason other builds dont work is because the design is like a constrictor. Nothing else -works-. It's why the Meta is held to so ironclad in this game, and these changes only exaserbate this.

If people were truely able to run what they want in this game, you wouldn't be seeing the cult of personality, as much as I hate it. It's necessary.

You seem to be under the impression we have more choice than we do. We dont.

Heal tanks are alot of fun I agree and can be a blast to play to bad they do not fit into the meta though. As for your other statements I am sorry I do not believe there are no other ways to beat the content then the meta that the game currently has because I have tanked to many things with a 2-handed tank I was told does not work.

If you've beaten a vet trial, with a two-handed tank, you've either got hax, or you didn't do it. Like, period. No group could make, or would want to, that stupidity work.

If you've beat vet dungeons, depends on the dungeon. Your healer likely carried you.

Eitherway. You likely play on a low enough difficulty level that you can entertain these delusions, but that's all they are bud. Delusions. Get with the program.

You do not have to believe me but I do not believe you tried other strategies other wise you would of found other ways to beat the content. You sound like all the other I dealt with in EQ, WoW, DCUO, Vanguard, Terra, SwtoR and ever other mmo I have played that said the meta is the only way.

"Well If you dont believe me, I dont believe you!"

"Your just not trying hard enough!"

Spare me. As for 'you dont have to believe me' it's not like your going out of your way to provide video evidence or anything.

Also: Half the games you listed have class systems, meaning there isn't a problem there, that's just the optimal setup. And the reason it's a problem here and not there, is the game should offer alot more choice than it does. It's set up to offer that choice. Instead it does nothing.

Quite frankly, if you want a great example of what I want this game to be? Look at Secret World Legends, a game that takes a customizable base like this game and turns it into a much better game where many more setups are useable.

Oh yeah have a sword / shotgun tank on Secret World Legends I remade from the original game that I play and have tanked most content with. Also played GW2 and have a Celestial Guardian something many have never seen in GW2 but was a build I made there that was more of a jack of all trades but was made to be like a Paladin and have cleared everything upto the latest release including all the raid parts that came out.

In Both those game had many saying the same as you are here just cause something works a certain way or has not been tried or created yet does not mean it can not be done it just means no one has tried. I am sorry I got snarky bad day but I hear in alot of games certain things can only be done because of this and to let you know your right I have no way of proving I did tank AS, HA, AA, SO and Mol upto the final boss and even HoF on any difficulty with my 2 handed tank most where a pain and we wiped many time but had other skill set ups and things I would try to get through them including running sword and board back bar for other reasons besides block but mainly to apply Major Fracture and Major Breach cause in most of those cases did not have any nightblades or dk's who could.

Its not that its impossible its just never been done and or tried to be done with anything else. And trust me I know why the meta works as well as it does but that is one strategy that people found to be the best most fastest way to complete the content. There is many other ways and some times it takes a team working together helping each other to get the job done more then it is about being the best.

I think you've proven my point for me, with the admission of multiple whipes.

The content does not support any other setup other than the meta. You can run other setups, but it's going to outright fight you on that, as opposed to secret world, which encourages and tends to work you.

Aaaand that's my point. And no ammount of team work is going to be a substitute for good game design that compliments your options, as far as having fun and completing content goes.

But that'd require a dev team that isn't outright disconnected from it's own playerbase. When a stream has a man genuinely go 'why do people want to dye weapons' despite years of feedback on why, you know that person shouldn't be a dev anymore.

Nolic1 · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I think you've proven my point for me, with the admission of multiple whipes.

The content does not support any other setup other than the meta. You can run other setups, but it's going to outright fight you on that, as opposed to secret world, which encourages and tends to work you.

Aaaand that's my point. And no ammount of team work is going to be a substitute for good game design that compliments your options, as far as having fun and completing content goes.

But that is just it these games are made about group team work and some times it takes the team working together to get things done. Tanking with a 2 handed is alot harder to learn cause there was no guide to teach or hold my hand to find what worked best I had to make it work and I had to train myself to be the best I could with it and figure out the best set up and everything else. Like any build you do not just pick it up and all the sudden your the best you have to learn how it works and how to use it to be optimal with it just like they say with DPS builds you want to be good learn the rotations and become good with them you have to do the same with 2 handed tanking.

This was my first creation of the build.

https://youtu.be/P2BTITXH32M

I heard from many it would not work but I found a way to make it work. I have learned alot sense that video and have found better set ups race choices and many things to make it better but it works and yeah some classes are better 2 handed tanks just like warden is the best ice staff tank there is. But each type of tank has no guide to be as good as the meta tank so no one knows how any of the other tank options work because there is no one making them.

As for how one works here it is.

https://youtu.be/I5_fCOBGZRk

And Ice staff.

https://youtu.be/NI8sxODdE5I

I do not have videos for others but they can be made its just I ask permission to record others be for I do.

Please excuse the attitude I have with the meta in the videos but this is during that time when I was being told this could not be done by many of players.

Asardes · January 2018

Tanking non-DLC vet dungeons says nothing about the viability of the said build since the content is easy enough for more mechanics to be simply roll dodged, shielded or even utterly bypassed by dumping enough DPS at once on the boss. You can literally tank them on any stamina char spamming heavy attack into brawler with inner fire slotted and barely get damaged. Or any magicka build can spam shields and heavy attack everything to death. Few of them have one-shots. The Centurion in Darkshade 1 can be kited around in spin phase (it ignores aggro anyway) and Selene has a very long telegraph for the bear and that's oneshot anyway even to a blocking tank. So the videos above prove exactly nothing.

idk · January 2018

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

Out of control?

For who? PVP? Because if that's the case, these changes could be applied themselves to Cyro and nothing else.

If not...then I question your ability to speak on this.

For PvE we have adapted to the previous changes and do just fine. I expect that'll be the case here but the 3rd day is to early to tell.

I suggest you actually test things on the pts. Try different arrangements and see for yourself.

Asardes · January 2018

idk wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Good . Tanks can cry all they like it was out of control . Good job Wrobel .

Out of control?

For who? PVP? Because if that's the case, these changes could be applied themselves to Cyro and nothing else.

If not...then I question your ability to speak on this.

For PvE we have adapted to the previous changes and do just fine. I expect that'll be the case here but the 3rd day is to early to tell.

I suggest you actually test things on the pts. Try different arrangements and see for yourself.

Relax, that player whines at every patch. Way before Morrowind probably. I just smile and adapt

kringled_1 · January 2018

Can I ask how people are seeing block costs on live? I don't think my current setup would be significantly affected but I'm not currently taking the harder content either.
Also, for those that are recommending the frost staff back bar without tri-focus, could someone explain what that's accomplishing?

Asardes · January 2018

kringled_1 wrote: »

Can I ask how people are seeing block costs on live? I don't think my current setup would be significantly affected but I'm not currently taking the harder content either.
Also, for those that are recommending the frost staff back bar without tri-focus, could someone explain what that's accomplishing?

It forces you to consume magicka while blocking with it. You want to save that more for utility skills. From the tool tip:

Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attack taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking cost Magicka instead of Stamina

But you still want Elemental Force to apply Chilled effect that results in Minor Maim:

Increases your chance of afflicting enemies with Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects by 100%

as well as Ancient Knowledge to still reduce your block costs and increase the damage you can block:

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Destruction+Staff+Skills

dirtykdx · January 2018

You guys might want to test your synergies on PTS...all of them (the important ones).

Orbs
Shards
Seeds
Liquid Lightning

I heard that with the cooldown to 30 seconds change that maybe some don't share cooldowns anymore... So, those of you like me, that run with 1 temp & 1 warden healer might be in a really nice spot now - with that stanky glow of your alkosh.

Of course I can't verify that until this weekend as guild stuff has my nightly schedule full, but yeah...

Nifty2g · January 2018

fgegegergrgregrlemvkorgnmodlvmiwkfnslvmkavmneoiwfqwvneoignfefefefeffefefefefefefefefefedsrhrbrabfrahBraerBHrWJrhhSRFDhrenjZATJjargrgrgrgrgvfanebard,clsmvknAInvIKOHRi'kBnkAR"Fzhramholrmnbltmnslegrgrgrfdvfarfanrvcbfbfababhfmlpbsfdmplbrsmlpbsrlmp[bsml;bsm;l'bslm;bsml;bsml;bsml;bss mblmbnlvsmdlvlm;sl;mvsl;mvsl;msml;vsdlmvsdlmsmlmsl;slmsv;vsslvslmvslmv;lvs;mlvml;smsvmvs;lvsvsmlvsl;mslvslml;sl;vlvsmvlvdvdvdvdvm,lvf;lmbsdl;msb;lmbsdlm;sbdl;mbsfdlm,;lsb;bsd;lmbsdl;bsfd;lbs;lsb;lmorpljmAHRpfl;sdlmml;bslm;bs;lsbsllm;lmbs;lbmlmbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcsdcscscscscscsfbbbbderfdrfdfdfdfdffdbfdbrsabnrhjtjatrsjmtrkmkjdfopbsdpobspmobmpsmpobsmpobsmopbsompbsopmbspmobsmpmposobmbsopmpobobsobsvlmpmlpvsamlvslm;svlm;vslm;vsl;mvslm;svlmvsllm;svl;msvml;vsm;lsvlv;lmv;lmvl;mvlmlsvml;vslm;lmsvlv;lmsmlvsvmlvml;ml;smml;vml;smlvmlsmvs;m;vsmsvlm;slmvlvdvddvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

Bowser · January 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

fgegegergrgregrlemvkorgnmodlvmiwkfnslvmkavmneoiwfqwvneoignfefefefeffefefefefefefefefefedsrhrbrabfrahBraerBHrWJrhhSRFDhrenjZATJjargrgrgrgrgvfanebard,clsmvknAInvIKOHRi'kBnkAR"Fzhramholrmnbltmnslegrgrgrfdvfarfanrvcbfbfababhfmlpbsfdmplbrsmlpbsrlmp[bsml;bsm;l'bslm;bsml;bsml;bsml;bss mblmbnlvsmdlvlm;sl;mvsl;mvsl;msml;vsdlmvsdlmsmlmsl;slmsv;vsslvslmvslmv;lvs;mlvml;smsvmvs;lvsvsmlvsl;mslvslml;sl;vlvsmvlvdvdvdvdvm,lvf;lmbsdl;msb;lmbsdlm;sbdl;mbsfdlm,;lsb;bsd;lmbsdl;bsfd;lbs;lsb;lmorpljmAHRpfl;sdlmml;bslm;bs;lsbsllm;lmbs;lbmlmbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcsdcscscscscscsfbbbbderfdrfdfdfdfdffdbfdbrsabnrhjtjatrsjmtrkmkjdfopbsdpobspmobmpsmpobsmpobsmopbsompbsopmbspmobsmpmposobmbsopmpobobsobsvlmpmlpvsamlvslm;svlm;vslm;vsl;mvslm;svlmvsllm;svl;msvml;vsm;lsvlv;lmv;lmvl;mvlmlsvml;vslm;lmsvlv;lmsmlvsvmlvml;ml;smml;vml;smlvmlsmvs;m;vsmsvlm;slmvlvdvddvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

I totally agree 100%

rustic_potato · January 2018

Nifty2g wrote: »

fgegegergrgregrlemvkorgnmodlvmiwkfnslvmkavmneoiwfqwvneoignfefefefeffefefefefefefefefefedsrhrbrabfrahBraerBHrWJrhhSRFDhrenjZATJjargrgrgrgrgvfanebard,clsmvknAInvIKOHRi'kBnkAR"Fzhramholrmnbltmnslegrgrgrfdvfarfanrvcbfbfababhfmlpbsfdmplbrsmlpbsrlmp[bsml;bsm;l'bslm;bsml;bsml;bsml;bss mblmbnlvsmdlvlm;sl;mvsl;mvsl;msml;vsdlmvsdlmsmlmsl;slmsv;vsslvslmvslmv;lvs;mlvml;smsvmvs;lvsvsmlvsl;mslvslml;sl;vlvsmvlvdvdvdvdvm,lvf;lmbsdl;msb;lmbsdlm;sbdl;mbsfdlm,;lsb;bsd;lmbsdl;bsfd;lbs;lsb;lmorpljmAHRpfl;sdlmml;bslm;bs;lsbsllm;lmbs;lbmlmbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcsdcscscscscscsfbbbbderfdrfdfdfdfdffdbfdbrsabnrhjtjatrsjmtrkmkjdfopbsdpobspmobmpsmpobsmpobsmopbsompbsopmbspmobsmpmposobmbsopmpobobsobsvlmpmlpvsamlvslm;svlm;vslm;vsl;mvslm;svlmvsllm;svl;msvml;vsm;lsvlv;lmv;lmvl;mvlmlsvml;vslm;lmsvlv;lmsmlvsvmlvml;ml;smml;vml;smlvmlsmvs;m;vsmsvlm;slmvlvdvddvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

Best feedback in this thread.

Nifty2g · January 2018

rustic_potato wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

fgegegergrgregrlemvkorgnmodlvmiwkfnslvmkavmneoiwfqwvneoignfefefefeffefefefefefefefefefedsrhrbrabfrahBraerBHrWJrhhSRFDhrenjZATJjargrgrgrgrgvfanebard,clsmvknAInvIKOHRi'kBnkAR"Fzhramholrmnbltmnslegrgrgrfdvfarfanrvcbfbfababhfmlpbsfdmplbrsmlpbsrlmp[bsml;bsm;l'bslm;bsml;bsml;bsml;bss mblmbnlvsmdlvlm;sl;mvsl;mvsl;msml;vsdlmvsdlmsmlmsl;slmsv;vsslvslmvslmv;lvs;mlvml;smsvmvs;lvsvsmlvsl;mslvslml;sl;vlvsmvlvdvdvdvdvm,lvf;lmbsdl;msb;lmbsdlm;sbdl;mbsfdlm,;lsb;bsd;lmbsdl;bsfd;lbs;lsb;lmorpljmAHRpfl;sdlmml;bslm;bs;lsbsllm;lmbs;lbmlmbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcsdcscscscscscsfbbbbderfdrfdfdfdfdffdbfdbrsabnrhjtjatrsjmtrkmkjdfopbsdpobspmobmpsmpobsmpobsmopbsompbsopmbspmobsmpmposobmbsopmpobobsobsvlmpmlpvsamlvslm;svlm;vslm;vsl;mvslm;svlmvsllm;svl;msvml;vsm;lsvlv;lmv;lmvl;mvlmlsvml;vslm;lmsvlv;lmsmlvsvmlvml;ml;smml;vml;smlvmlsmvs;m;vsmsvlm;slmvlvdvddvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdvdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd

Best feedback in this thread.

Provided by my cat

Thought about editing my post but it seems fitting, hope ZOS takes the feedback into consideration

ZeroXFF · January 2018

Asardes wrote: »

Selene has a very long telegraph for the bear and that's oneshot anyway even to a blocking tank.

That attack barely tickles when I'm blocking. Though I am running with 33k armor and the vampire cloak set on my templar. Still, I can't imagine it 1-shooting anyone with over 20k armor and health when they are blocking. And if they have less than that, they shouldn't queue as tanks, because they aren't.

dirtykdx · January 2018

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Selene has a very long telegraph for the bear and that's oneshot anyway even to a blocking tank.

That attack barely tickles when I'm blocking. Though I am running with 33k armor and the vampire cloak set on my templar. Still, I can't imagine it 1-shooting anyone with over 20k armor and health when they are blocking. And if they have less than that, they shouldn't queue as tanks, because they aren't.

It used to be unblockable and a one shot...before they nerfed it, I want to say it went easy mode at HotR update? Maybe Morrowind

Nolic1 · January 2018

I suppose soloing a raid boss can not be done ether even though there is proof it can be done.

https://youtu.be/HwYV5CKXPpk

See many say alot of things require certain things but people have done it just cause you have not seen something work does not mean its never been done as the above video proves.

See there is proof that things can be done just cause many of us do not have proof does not mean it can not can you all show me proof that all the things I say can not be done other then saying it can not?

dirtykdx · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

I suppose soloing a raid boss can not be done ether even though there is proof it can be done.

https://youtu.be/HwYV5CKXPpk

See many say alot of things require certain things but people have done it just cause you have not seen something work does not mean its never been done as the above video proves.

See there is proof that things can be done just cause many of us do not have proof does not mean it can not can you all show me proof that all the things I say can not be done other then saying it can not?

Hello, welcome to the PVE tanking discussion for dragon bones thread, where the focus is tanking in PVE, and mainly the extreme cases, such as veteran trials. While Andy's vMA build going against Olms solo in normal AS, is an impressive example of knowing a build and cleanly pulling off mechanics, it is in no way relevant to this thread.

Woeler · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

I suppose soloing a raid boss can not be done ether even though there is proof it can be done.

https://youtu.be/HwYV5CKXPpk

See many say alot of things require certain things but people have done it just cause you have not seen something work does not mean its never been done as the above video proves.

See there is proof that things can be done just cause many of us do not have proof does not mean it can not can you all show me proof that all the things I say can not be done other then saying it can not?

I don't think I've read a bigger logical fallacy in the last year.

victoriana-blue · January 2018

Livewire meta incoming, y/n? I'm thinking yes, because all that concussion should make it easy to set things off-balance and get that delicious resource return.

Has there been any word about adjustments to existing trials & dungeons? The off-balance change is nice and all, but it won't help much in things like vSO and vAA where you're dealing with multiple heavy-attacking enemies and you don't have time to use a heavy attack yourself.

I mean, my dunmer NB tank is a heal-through instead of a flat-out resist/block tank, and provides about half of her own heals. She does pretty well in newer content where there's time to recover and the boss mechanics are more than block, which seems to be the way the devs want to take the game, but running Craglorn trials gets more difficult every patch. I don't permablock because NB tanks rely on skills to proc their passives (e.g. shadow skills for major ward & resolve, or mirage for major evasion + minor ward & resolve) and on attack weaving for resources. Tactical blocking is our jam! But if I hold block to deal with more than two heavy attackers at a time - because of the stuns, not the damage - I run out of resources and die even when I backbar a frost staff. Maybe there's a way around this, but as it is I've turned down invitations to progression groups because I don't think I can handle the axes or trolls by myself.

(Don't tell me to roll a DK or a warden, it's not happening.

)

Glad to see other NB tanks out 'n about! \o/

Nolic1 · January 2018

dirtykdx wrote: »

Nolic1 wrote: »

I suppose soloing a raid boss can not be done ether even though there is proof it can be done.

https://youtu.be/HwYV5CKXPpk

See many say alot of things require certain things but people have done it just cause you have not seen something work does not mean its never been done as the above video proves.

See there is proof that things can be done just cause many of us do not have proof does not mean it can not can you all show me proof that all the things I say can not be done other then saying it can not?

Hello, welcome to the PVE tanking discussion for dragon bones thread, where the focus is tanking in PVE, and mainly the extreme cases, such as veteran trials. While Andy's vMA build going against Olms solo in normal AS, is an impressive example of knowing a build and cleanly pulling off mechanics, it is in no way relevant to this thread.

Ok sorry I posted something that might not be relevant to the thread but this is about tanking so here is the question I have do any of you have any idea if a 2 handed tank will work better in the case at hand or are will still talking only meta tanking and how it has been nerfed due to the changes in blockcost, synergies and offbalance effects and how its making the meta harder to play or are we willing to look at other tactics to complete the trials other then holding block the whole time?

As for the 2 handed tank I do not want to hear it cannnot handle it other wise please show me in a video or and official post from the devs it can not work other wise there is no proof it can not.

kringled_1 · January 2018

Asardes wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Can I ask how people are seeing block costs on live? I don't think my current setup would be significantly affected but I'm not currently taking the harder content either.
Also, for those that are recommending the frost staff back bar without tri-focus, could someone explain what that's accomplishing?

It forces you to consume magicka while blocking with it. You want to save that more for utility skills. From the tool tip:

Fully-charged Frost Heavy Attack taunt the enemy to attack you for 15 seconds and grant a damage shield that absorbs 805 damage.
While a Frost Staff is equipped, blocking cost Magicka instead of Stamina

But you still want Elemental Force to apply Chilled effect that results in Minor Maim:

Increases your chance of afflicting enemies with Burning, Concussion, and Chilled status effects by 100%

as well as Ancient Knowledge to still reduce your block costs and increase the damage you can block:

Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%

Thanks. I wasn't sure about the Chilled/Minor Maim part mostly.
It's not something I can do on my tank anytime soon but good to understand.

Liofa · January 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Livewire meta incoming, y/n? I'm thinking yes, because all that concussion should make it easy to set things off-balance and get that delicious resource return.

@victoriana-blue

I don't think so . Concussion and Off Balance are different things . Bosses can still be affected with Concussion without a cooldown so I am pretty sure Shock enchants will take care of that . Off Balance will only last 4 seconds and healers' Shock Blockade will be more than enough to proc it again when cooldown is over .

victoriana-blue · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

Livewire meta incoming, y/n? I'm thinking yes, because all that concussion should make it easy to set things off-balance and get that delicious resource return.

@victoriana-blue

I don't think so . Concussion and Off Balance are different things . Bosses can still be affected with Concussion without a cooldown so I am pretty sure Shock enchants will take care of that . Off Balance will only last 4 seconds and healers' Shock Blockade will be more than enough to proc it again when cooldown is over .

I thought concussion made it easier to inflict off-balance from shock abilities, rather than requiring the tank to block a heavy or a high cp person to dodge-roll? Livewire does an 8m aoe, which gives the person with the lightning staff more margin of error in aiming their blockade.

And are healers with lightning staffs common? I usually expect one of the dps to be running a lightning staff, but I don't remember running into a shock blockade-using healer or seeing it suggested in my end-game guilds' chats - just drain and maybe crushing shock, depending on the content. (When I run group content these days it's usually with uncoordinated groups, so I have more experience pug-proofing than with group composition. For what that's worth.)

Morgul667 · January 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

And are healers with lightning staffs common? I usually expect one of the dps to be running a lightning staff, but I don't remember running into a shock blockade-using healer or seeing it suggested in my end-game guilds' chats - just drain and maybe crushing shock, depending on the content. (When I run group content these days it's usually with uncoordinated groups, so I have more experience pug-proofing than with group composition. For what that's worth.)

Yes many healers run the lighting wall of blockade for off balance purpose

Liofa · January 2018

victoriana-blue wrote: »

I thought concussion made it easier to inflict off-balance from shock abilities, rather than requiring the tank to block a heavy or a high cp person to dodge-roll? Livewire does an 8m aoe, which gives the person with the lightning staff more margin of error in aiming their blockade.

And are healers with lightning staffs common? I usually expect one of the dps to be running a lightning staff, but I don't remember running into a shock blockade-using healer or seeing it suggested in my end-game guilds' chats - just drain and maybe crushing shock, depending on the content. (When I run group content these days it's usually with uncoordinated groups, so I have more experience pug-proofing than with group composition. For what that's worth.)

Concussion is applied by Shock damage . Blockade of Storms makes enemies Off Balanced but only if they are Concussed . That's why Lightning Blockade is really important for healers . It is there to increase Off Balance uptime . It also procs your enchantment of weapon you are holding while dealing damage . This doesn't really affect your sustain because you get the spent magicka back with Minor Magickasteal . Obviously can do without it as well but benefits are too high to not use .

victoriana-blue · January 2018

Liofa wrote: »

Concussion is applied by Shock damage . Blockade of Storms makes enemies Off Balanced but only if they are Concussed . That's why Lightning Blockade is really important for healers . It is there to increase Off Balance uptime . It also procs your enchantment of weapon you are holding while dealing damage . This doesn't really affect your sustain because you get the spent magicka back with Minor Magickasteal . Obviously can do without it as well but benefits are too high to not use .

Thanks for the explanation! So it sounds like the double resource return on off-balance will be taking advantage of the current balance rather than changing the tank/healer/mag dps rotations or gear set-ups, assuming the rest of the PTS cycle doesn't massively rebalance the game; that's not a bad thing.

And thank you for this thread and your math, it's awesome so hear how things are actually going on the PTS.

Morgul667 wrote: »

victoriana-blue wrote: »

And are healers with lightning staffs common? I usually expect one of the dps to be running a lightning staff, but I don't remember running into a shock blockade-using healer or seeing it suggested in my end-game guilds' chats - just drain and maybe crushing shock, depending on the content. (When I run group content these days it's usually with uncoordinated groups, so I have more experience pug-proofing than with group composition. For what that's worth.)

Yes many healers run the lighting wall of blockade for off balance purpose

Good to know, ty! I'll have to do some reading before resurrecting my healer.

DKsUnite · January 2018

Im no PvE tank but i do PvP as a permablocking mDK. These block changes do nothing to stop PvP permablocking. Im actually looking forward to these changes going live because it will actually be a buff thanks to small adjustments in my build. So basically this update is screwing over PvE tanks.

The reason I permablock in PvP is because it's extremely effective in regards to avoiding CC as only a handful of skills drop block and also because it reduces damage by so much that the difference between me being in light and heavy perma blocking is minimal and hence why I run light. My solution to this problem is to change the way mitigation works for both armour and blocking.

TL;DR: Shift the power of damage mitigation to armour resistances rather than blocking

Let's say we raise the resistances hardcap to 43030. Knowing that currently 662 = 1% mitigation, this would give us a hardcap of 65% mitigation from resistances instead of the 50% we currently have. At the same time, you reduce the amount of damage mitigated by block from 50% to 25%. Similarly, you reduce the SnB passive that gives 20% damage mitigation to 10% damage mitigation.

Now, a heavy armoured DK PvE tank sitting at hardcapped resistances on live right now (ie. 50% mitigation from armour or 33k resistances) holding block with minor maim on their target and absorb magic is looking at 86% damage mitigation.

A light armoured DK PvP spec (similar to what i run) (with around 30% mitigation from armour or 20k resistances) is holding block and has minor maim on their target is looking at 78.6% mitigation. NOTE: No absorb magic with this spec for obvious reasons.

So the difference the armour makes is very small currently. However, let's look at my proposed changes.

Now, a heavy armoured DK PvE tank sitting at hardcapped resistances in the new system (ie. 65% mitigation from armour or 43k resistances) holding block with minor maim on their target and absorb magic is looking at 83.37% damage mitigation. Notice that the values are very close to what is on live (2.6% difference).

However, the same light armoured PvP DK with around 30% mitigation from armour or 20k resistances is holding block and has minor maim on their target is looking at 63.96% mitigation. That is a difference of 14.68%.

Furthermore, this change would allow PvE tanks to drop their block more often without fear of imploding from regular hits. A hardcapped tank on live with just minor maim on the target would mitigate 57.75% damage without blocking. In my proposed change, a hardcapped tank would mitigate 70.25% with just minor maim and no blocking. That's an extra 12.5% mitigation while not blocking.

Now, in order to get resistances to 43k, a PvE tank would most likely have to wear a resistances set, something like fortified brass, bloodspawn, lord warden etc and possibly get supported by a healer wearing something like meritorious service, idk just making stuff up off the top of my head. Possibly, resistance enchants on jewellery (increase physical/spell resistance by X) could be buffed as they now only provide 1k each. Maybe buff them to 2/2.5k).

Ultimately, this would take away some of the power of permablocking from pvp as you are now taking 15% more damage than before in a light armour build (which is mostly what 1vX permablock mDKs run atm). Further, this means that block cost can be increased from the value on live but maybe only by a small amount. Hopefully this solution appeases the PvE and PvP community at the same time.

Nolic1 · January 2018

DKsUnite wrote: »

Im no PvE tank but i do PvP as a permablocking mDK. These block changes do nothing to stop PvP permablocking. Im actually looking forward to these changes going live because it will actually be a buff thanks to small adjustments in my build. So basically this update is screwing over PvE tanks.

The reason I permablock in PvP is because it's extremely effective in regards to avoiding CC as only a handful of skills drop block and also because it reduces damage by so much that the difference between me being in light and heavy perma blocking is minimal and hence why I run light. My solution to this problem is to change the way mitigation works for both armour and blocking.

TL;DR: Shift the power of damage mitigation to armour resistances rather than blocking

Let's say we raise the resistances hardcap to 43030. Knowing that currently 662 = 1% mitigation, this would give us a hardcap of 65% mitigation from resistances instead of the 50% we currently have. At the same time, you reduce the amount of damage mitigated by block from 50% to 25%. Similarly, you reduce the SnB passive that gives 20% damage mitigation to 10% damage mitigation.

Now, a heavy armoured DK PvE tank sitting at hardcapped resistances on live right now (ie. 50% mitigation from armour or 33k resistances) holding block with minor maim on their target and absorb magic is looking at 86% damage mitigation.

A light armoured DK PvP spec (similar to what i run) (with around 30% mitigation from armour or 20k resistances) is holding block and has minor maim on their target is looking at 78.6% mitigation. NOTE: No absorb magic with this spec for obvious reasons.

So the difference the armour makes is very small currently. However, let's look at my proposed changes.

Now, a heavy armoured DK PvE tank sitting at hardcapped resistances in the new system (ie. 65% mitigation from armour or 43k resistances) holding block with minor maim on their target and absorb magic is looking at 83.37% damage mitigation. Notice that the values are very close to what is on live (2.6% difference).

However, the same light armoured PvP DK with around 30% mitigation from armour or 20k resistances is holding block and has minor maim on their target is looking at 63.96% mitigation. That is a difference of 14.68%.

Furthermore, this change would allow PvE tanks to drop their block more often without fear of imploding from regular hits. A hardcapped tank on live with just minor maim on the target would mitigate 57.75% damage without blocking. In my proposed change, a hardcapped tank would mitigate 70.25% with just minor maim and no blocking. That's an extra 12.5% mitigation while not blocking.

Now, in order to get resistances to 43k, a PvE tank would most likely have to wear a resistances set, something like fortified brass, bloodspawn, lord warden etc and possibly get supported by a healer wearing something like meritorious service, idk just making stuff up off the top of my head. Possibly, resistance enchants on jewellery (increase physical/spell resistance by X) could be buffed as they now only provide 1k each. Maybe buff them to 2/2.5k).

Ultimately, this would take away some of the power of permablocking from pvp as you are now taking 15% more damage than before in a light armour build (which is mostly what 1vX permablock mDKs run atm). Further, this means that block cost can be increased from the value on live but maybe only by a small amount. Hopefully this solution appeases the PvE and PvP community at the same time.

The idea here sounds good but they could just adjust the value you get now at 33k to a 65% midigation of damage equaling out to what is shown above cause building a tank with higher resistances like your saying can take alot of build options away from tanks making tanking only use one to two set ups unlike it is now.

What I think they do need to do is look at everything in the Dungeons and Trials and maybe adjust some things to make blocking not as needed for tanking so people can tank more effectively with all weapon and armor types this way we do not have the one and only strategy (META) being used by so many this way others can enjoy the end game easier then being forced to play one way by everyone else cause no one will try other ways when the only way they can find to do things is the meta strategy.

DKsUnite · January 2018

Nolic1 wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Im no PvE tank but i do PvP as a permablocking mDK. These block changes do nothing to stop PvP permablocking. Im actually looking forward to these changes going live because it will actually be a buff thanks to small adjustments in my build. So basically this update is screwing over PvE tanks.

The reason I permablock in PvP is because it's extremely effective in regards to avoiding CC as only a handful of skills drop block and also because it reduces damage by so much that the difference between me being in light and heavy perma blocking is minimal and hence why I run light. My solution to this problem is to change the way mitigation works for both armour and blocking.

TL;DR: Shift the power of damage mitigation to armour resistances rather than blocking

Let's say we raise the resistances hardcap to 43030. Knowing that currently 662 = 1% mitigation, this would give us a hardcap of 65% mitigation from resistances instead of the 50% we currently have. At the same time, you reduce the amount of damage mitigated by block from 50% to 25%. Similarly, you reduce the SnB passive that gives 20% damage mitigation to 10% damage mitigation.

Now, a heavy armoured DK PvE tank sitting at hardcapped resistances on live right now (ie. 50% mitigation from armour or 33k resistances) holding block with minor maim on their target and absorb magic is looking at 86% damage mitigation.

A light armoured DK PvP spec (similar to what i run) (with around 30% mitigation from armour or 20k resistances) is holding block and has minor maim on their target is looking at 78.6% mitigation. NOTE: No absorb magic with this spec for obvious reasons.

So the difference the armour makes is very small currently. However, let's look at my proposed changes.

Now, a heavy armoured DK PvE tank sitting at hardcapped resistances in the new system (ie. 65% mitigation from armour or 43k resistances) holding block with minor maim on their target and absorb magic is looking at 83.37% damage mitigation. Notice that the values are very close to what is on live (2.6% difference).

However, the same light armoured PvP DK with around 30% mitigation from armour or 20k resistances is holding block and has minor maim on their target is looking at 63.96% mitigation. That is a difference of 14.68%.

Furthermore, this change would allow PvE tanks to drop their block more often without fear of imploding from regular hits. A hardcapped tank on live with just minor maim on the target would mitigate 57.75% damage without blocking. In my proposed change, a hardcapped tank would mitigate 70.25% with just minor maim and no blocking. That's an extra 12.5% mitigation while not blocking.

Now, in order to get resistances to 43k, a PvE tank would most likely have to wear a resistances set, something like fortified brass, bloodspawn, lord warden etc and possibly get supported by a healer wearing something like meritorious service, idk just making stuff up off the top of my head. Possibly, resistance enchants on jewellery (increase physical/spell resistance by X) could be buffed as they now only provide 1k each. Maybe buff them to 2/2.5k).

Ultimately, this would take away some of the power of permablocking from pvp as you are now taking 15% more damage than before in a light armour build (which is mostly what 1vX permablock mDKs run atm). Further, this means that block cost can be increased from the value on live but maybe only by a small amount. Hopefully this solution appeases the PvE and PvP community at the same time.

The idea here sounds good but they could just adjust the value you get now at 33k to a 65% midigation of damage equaling out to what is shown above cause building a tank with higher resistances like your saying can take alot of build options away from tanks making tanking only use one to two set ups unlike it is now.

See you can't do that because it isnt hard to hit those numbers without being a dedicated tank. You slap on just 5 pieces of heavy and have a major resolve/ward buff up and you are nearly at the hardcap already. The player must commit themselves to being a tank. I understand the concern about build diversity but when you are truly endgame, everyone runs the same thing anyways because it's mathematically the best.