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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8100050/#Comment_8100050
PvE Tanking Discussion for Dragon Bones
Liofa
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Hey everyone . Been doing some testing and ran one of the new dungeons with a DK tank in PTS today . Nerfs to PvE Tank sustain is quite high sadly . I am hoping this thread will help you understand what is going on and/or find a way around it .
BLOCK COST
Base block cost reduced to 1730 from 2160 .
Live patch block cost calculation :
Block Cost = (( 2160 * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) (1-Fortress)) - Shield-Play) * (1-Defensive Posture)
Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 88 .
And here is the new one =
Block Cost = (( 1730 - Shield-Play ) * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) ( 1-Fortress)) * (1-Defensive Posture)
Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 336 .
Now , the important part is , how effective Shield-Play is .
Let's do two different setups . First one with 3 Shield-Play enchants , second one with none .
First setup has 336 block cost while the second one has 520 . Looking at the difference , Shield-Play enchants doesn't seem to be as effective as before . 3 enchants give you a block cost reduction of 184 , which was 609 before the nerf . This brings up the question . Shield-Play enchants are worth it or not ?
I think the answer lies in what kind of fight you will be tanking in . For example , while tanking axes , Shield-Play enchants will win without a doubt while Magicka Recovery enchants perform better in fights where you don't block as much . I would say Stamina Cost Reduction could be useful as well but they get their share from diminishing returns too and there isn't really a lot of skills that cost stamina except Pierce Armor and Heroic Slash . To sum it up , I think we have to keep different jewelries with different enchants on them , for different fights .
While running one of the new dungeons , I tried 3 Magicka Recovery glyphs on jewelry . My build was Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden , 8 Sturdy , all tri-stat enchants as an Imperial . Classic trials tank build in other words . I was running Lord Mundus and Equilibrium . Being honest with you , I had issues whenever I permablocked . I had to drop my block and throw some heavy attacks time to time . You actually can keep permablocking with just Equilibrium and Igneous Shield spam , especially with the help of potions and Battle Roar passive , it is quite easy as long as you have a decent healer . Still , this doesn't matter because you will have to support your team with usage of other skills , costing time and resources .
SYNERGIES AND ALKOSH
Another nerf we need to talk about is Orb and Spear synergy . The cooldown increased to 30 seconds from 20 seconds . This is a straight nerf to Alkosh and sustain . I don't know why this happened , even though ZOS says it's because they are not triggering the Global Cooldown anymore . I don't see it being a good reason for such a strong nerf like this .
There are some more nerfs to Alkosh wearing tanks and Stamina DDs . Such as ;
Blood Funnel and Blood Feast (Blood Altar & morphs) : Increased the radius of the prompt to 28 meters.
Radiate (Inner Fire & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the taunted enemy.
Spawn Broodlings, Black Widows, and Arachnophobia (Trapping Webs & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the webbed enemy.
With these changes , I don't see Alkosh being as good as before even though you could use it on both tanks and still get high uptime . Only synergies you will be using are Conduit and Orbs/Shards as a tank , which makes Alkosh uptime really low when solo and worse compared to current live version .
With the new CP increase , DDs will get less and less benefits from damage oriented CPs . I think it is time for DDs to cover the lack of penetration with the extra CP and let tanks use some other support set .
It almost looks like ZOS wants to make Alkosh useless (both for tanks and melee DDs) but it is such a good set , I hope ZOS will revent some of these changes so we can keep using it more effectively .
OFF BALANCE AND LIGHTNING STAFF
Another important change is about Off Balance . I know a lot of tanks use Lightning Staff on their back bar for better Crusher uptime and some help with Off Balance . With the new block cost changes and Off Balance changes , I think Lightning Staff is not useful anymore . During my testing runs , I used a Frost Staff without the Tri-Focus passive . If you take that passive , your Magicka will be RIP while on back bar . It is really , really bad . I do not recommend it to anyone . Just don't take the passive and try to stay as low amount time as possible on your back bar .
I think keeping a Destro Staff on back bar is still a very good strat for better Crusher uptime , whether it be Frost , Lightning or Flame . Frost preferred obviously .
CLASS DIFFERENCE
Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .
FINAL WORDS
It almost looks like to me that ZOS wants tanks to drop support sets and wear sets that will give them self-sustain , tankiness etc. Tanking is and always been a support role in this game and should stay that way . These changes will make quite a lot of PvE tanks to stop playing their tank and play some other role . No offense to PvP players but these changes are hilarious just because some players fails to kill a tank in Cyrodiil . I think a lot of people on forums read that one thread where some guy kills 10 high-rank players (all of them had cost increase poisons) on his own as a permablock DK . What a joke ... Well guess what , there are already too few tanks in PvE and these changes will make some of them quit their role . I remember in Morrowind where ZOS introduced all the sustain nerfs and almost half of my raiding group quit the game because how boring it was to play . Now the same thing is happening to this small PvE tanking community that makes me wonder how many will continue . I know that this is only the first week of PTS and there will be changes but for now , this is what I think . I am hoping for better changes coming in the next several weeks .
Thanks for reading ,
Liofa
BLOCK COST
Base block cost reduced to 1730 from 2160 .
Live patch block cost calculation :
Block Cost = (( 2160 * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) (1-Fortress)) - Shield-Play) * (1-Defensive Posture)
Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 88 .
And here is the new one =
Block Cost = (( 1730 - Shield-Play ) * (1-Shadow Ward) (1-Sturdy) ( 1-Fortress)) * (1-Defensive Posture)
Lowest possible block cost for this formula is 336 .
Now , the important part is , how effective Shield-Play is .
Let's do two different setups . First one with 3 Shield-Play enchants , second one with none .
First setup has 336 block cost while the second one has 520 . Looking at the difference , Shield-Play enchants doesn't seem to be as effective as before . 3 enchants give you a block cost reduction of 184 , which was 609 before the nerf . This brings up the question . Shield-Play enchants are worth it or not ?
I think the answer lies in what kind of fight you will be tanking in . For example , while tanking axes , Shield-Play enchants will win without a doubt while Magicka Recovery enchants perform better in fights where you don't block as much . I would say Stamina Cost Reduction could be useful as well but they get their share from diminishing returns too and there isn't really a lot of skills that cost stamina except Pierce Armor and Heroic Slash . To sum it up , I think we have to keep different jewelries with different enchants on them , for different fights .
While running one of the new dungeons , I tried 3 Magicka Recovery glyphs on jewelry . My build was Ebon/Alkosh/Lord Warden , 8 Sturdy , all tri-stat enchants as an Imperial . Classic trials tank build in other words . I was running Lord Mundus and Equilibrium . Being honest with you , I had issues whenever I permablocked . I had to drop my block and throw some heavy attacks time to time . You actually can keep permablocking with just Equilibrium and Igneous Shield spam , especially with the help of potions and Battle Roar passive , it is quite easy as long as you have a decent healer . Still , this doesn't matter because you will have to support your team with usage of other skills , costing time and resources .
SYNERGIES AND ALKOSH
Another nerf we need to talk about is Orb and Spear synergy . The cooldown increased to 30 seconds from 20 seconds . This is a straight nerf to Alkosh and sustain . I don't know why this happened , even though ZOS says it's because they are not triggering the Global Cooldown anymore . I don't see it being a good reason for such a strong nerf like this .
There are some more nerfs to Alkosh wearing tanks and Stamina DDs . Such as ;
Blood Funnel and Blood Feast (Blood Altar & morphs) : Increased the radius of the prompt to 28 meters.
Radiate (Inner Fire & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the taunted enemy.
Spawn Broodlings, Black Widows, and Arachnophobia (Trapping Webs & morphs) : The prompt is now only visible to allies positioned further than 18 meters away from the webbed enemy.
With these changes , I don't see Alkosh being as good as before even though you could use it on both tanks and still get high uptime . Only synergies you will be using are Conduit and Orbs/Shards as a tank , which makes Alkosh uptime really low when solo and worse compared to current live version .
With the new CP increase , DDs will get less and less benefits from damage oriented CPs . I think it is time for DDs to cover the lack of penetration with the extra CP and let tanks use some other support set .
It almost looks like ZOS wants to make Alkosh useless (both for tanks and melee DDs) but it is such a good set , I hope ZOS will revent some of these changes so we can keep using it more effectively .
OFF BALANCE AND LIGHTNING STAFF
Another important change is about Off Balance . I know a lot of tanks use Lightning Staff on their back bar for better Crusher uptime and some help with Off Balance . With the new block cost changes and Off Balance changes , I think Lightning Staff is not useful anymore . During my testing runs , I used a Frost Staff without the Tri-Focus passive . If you take that passive , your Magicka will be RIP while on back bar . It is really , really bad . I do not recommend it to anyone . Just don't take the passive and try to stay as low amount time as possible on your back bar .
I think keeping a Destro Staff on back bar is still a very good strat for better Crusher uptime , whether it be Frost , Lightning or Flame . Frost preferred obviously .
CLASS DIFFERENCE
Another issue I would like to talk about is the difference between classes . Dragonknights and Wardens are far better at sustaining without dropping block in live server . This gap between classes will grow a lot more , forcing other classes to drop block and heavy attack far more often , making them much harder to play , especially if we consider the lag and required reaction time for veteran trials . I do not like this one bit . There needs to be some changes . Obviously , you could drop block and heavy attack whenever it is necessary but it will be necessary to do that quite often , especially for certain classes . This means , less care about group support and boring gameplay . Making it harder to sustain on tanks do not make the game more fun . Next patch is so harsh on tanks that we will have to stop debuffing to heavy attack because we actually can consume more than 2k stamina in 2 seconds , even with the lowest block cost setup .
FINAL WORDS
It almost looks like to me that ZOS wants tanks to drop support sets and wear sets that will give them self-sustain , tankiness etc. Tanking is and always been a support role in this game and should stay that way . These changes will make quite a lot of PvE tanks to stop playing their tank and play some other role . No offense to PvP players but these changes are hilarious just because some players fails to kill a tank in Cyrodiil . I think a lot of people on forums read that one thread where some guy kills 10 high-rank players (all of them had cost increase poisons) on his own as a permablock DK . What a joke ... Well guess what , there are already too few tanks in PvE and these changes will make some of them quit their role . I remember in Morrowind where ZOS introduced all the sustain nerfs and almost half of my raiding group quit the game because how boring it was to play . Now the same thing is happening to this small PvE tanking community that makes me wonder how many will continue . I know that this is only the first week of PTS and there will be changes but for now , this is what I think . I am hoping for better changes coming in the next several weeks .
Thanks for reading ,
Liofa
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Morgul667✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thanks I worry about the block cost change for PVE, wonder what it will do to tanks in the long run4 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Not having tanked yet, I don't know every nuance, so please excuse a simple question:
Why do destro staffs give better crusher uptime than other weapons might?2 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think the era of the support tank might be going the way of the dodo. ZOS has been, for a long time, trying to shy tanks away from secondary supports sets that focus on buffing/debuffing DPS numbers through straight up nerfs in an attempt to force tanks into more selfish gear.
I think this has fewer implications for tanking than it does for endgame DPS, damage boosters that are typically provided by tanks are going to be harder to actually maintain.
Edited by usmcjdking on January 9, 2018 3:25AM0331
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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Not having tanked yet, I don't know every nuance, so please excuse a simple question:
Why do destro staffs give better crusher uptime than other weapons might?
With wall of elements, every tick of damage you will fire your enchant that is on your weapon, if it is off cooldown.3 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Not having tanked yet, I don't know every nuance, so please excuse a simple question:
Why do destro staffs give better crusher uptime than other weapons might?
@FrancisCrawford
Hello ! I am getting this question a lot , even though been posting videos of me that include it in end-game content for around 8-9 months ^^
So the idea is , Blockade procs the enchant of the weapon you are holding . Let's say , I have an Infused Crusher on my 1h/s bar and an Infused Weakening on my Destro bar . When I use Blockade , it will proc my Weakening enchant . When I switch to my front bar , that blockade will start proccing my Crusher enchant . If this explanation is not enough , here is a video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVYQIYuhJ4
This strat basically gives you the best Crusher uptime possible , can even proc it from range/stunned/immobilized etc. for whatever reason . It is simply best for Crusher uptime .10 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Not having tanked yet, I don't know every nuance, so please excuse a simple question:
Why do destro staffs give better crusher uptime than other weapons might?
@FrancisCrawford
Hello ! I am getting this question a lot , even though been posting videos of me that include it in end-game content for around 8-9 months ^^
So the idea is , Blockade procs the enchant of the weapon you are holding . Let's say , I have an Infused Crusher on my 1h/s bar and an Infused Weakening on my Destro bar . When I use Blockade , it will proc my Weakening enchant . When I switch to my front bar , that blockade will start proccing my Crusher enchant . If this explanation is not enough , here is a video :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwVYQIYuhJ4
This strat basically gives you the best Crusher uptime possible , can even proc it from range/stunned/immobilized etc. for whatever reason . It is simply best for Crusher uptime .
Wow. I usually play magicka characters (sorcerer, templar, others) and it doesn't seem as if I have the enchantment uptime that that would suggest. I should look more closely.
What add-on are you using to get such clear feedback?0 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »
Wow. I usually play magicka characters (sorcerer, templar, others) and it doesn't seem as if I have the enchantment uptime that that would suggest. I should look more closely.
What add-on are you using to get such clear feedback?
@FrancisCrawford
This only happens for damaging and debuffing enchants . If I remember correctly , this will not work for self-buffing enchants like Berserker and Hardening . Might need to test again to be sure .
The addon is Srendarr . You can find it here : http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info655-Srendarr-AuraBuffDebuffTracker.html1 -
LordSarevok✭✭✭✭A quad cost nerf... Imagine a Dps player or healer being told they are increasing their cost by nearly 400%. Hey guys sorry. We had this one guy in PvP who was able to snipe guys to death! So today we are increasing snipe cost by 400%, just heavy attack!. Sorry Templars BoL is too good of a heal. Keeps too many people alive in PvP, today its cost is being increased by 400%. Don't worry just heavy attack between each cast and chain chug potions!Edited by LordSarevok on January 9, 2018 3:58AM27 -
Shezzarrine✭✭✭✭✭This is honestly just a slap in the face for us tanks. I agree that a lot of tanks will just switch to dps, I personally may just not bother doing trials on my tank anymore because I have DPS toons that aren't getting nerfed. The sad thing is that I love tanking but sustain is going to be hell even if we use selfish sets. Less group buffs=longer fights=worse sustain.8
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Teridaxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dammit and i was looking forward to this patch...
Always those low blows from zos.
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Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.
I think this is a good thing, it makes it harder which is something ZOS has been trying to avoid, but there is an obvious skill gap now. There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.usmcjdking wrote: »I think this has fewer implications for tanking than it does for endgame DPS, damage boosters that are typically provided by tanks are going to be harder to actually maintain.Edited by Nifty2g on January 9, 2018 4:14AM#MOREORBS2 -
Nolic1✭✭✭Tanking is not about support the community made it about support not the devs this is a player made meta so please quite referring to it as it was created by the devs and a real thing.
The thing we need to focus on is how are we the players going to try and make builds to fit these new changes.Edited by Nolic1 on January 9, 2018 4:15AMSherman from Sherman's Gaming
Youtube content creator that is dedicated to the Casual and Roleplay community for News, Lets Talks, Guides, Help and character builds.
Youtube channel link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrgYNgpFTRAl4XWz31o2emw9 -
Teridaxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tanking is not about support the community made it about support not the devs this is a player made meta so please quite referring to it as it was created by the devs and a real thing.
The thing we need to focus on is how are we the players going to try and make builds to fit these new changes.
Otherwise the dps and healers would be finally right about tanking.
It would be indeed boring if tanks could only block and taunt.
Right now tanks got options how to play but they keep removing those.9 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Easy I can provide a step by stepThe thing we need to focus on is how are we the players going to try and make builds to fit these new changes.
*Become an Argonian with race change sale.
*Heavy attack more and heavy attack when bosses are offbalanced. Making an addon for this you get bonus points.
*Use potions at appropriate times.
Something for someone to consider/test -- reduce potion cooldown enchantments with Argonian.Edited by Nifty2g on January 9, 2018 4:23AM#MOREORBS7 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Easy I can provide a step by stepThe thing we need to focus on is how are we the players going to try and make builds to fit these new changes.
*Become an Argonian with race change sale.
*Heavy attack more and heavy attack when bosses are offbalanced. Making an addon for this you get bonus points.
*Use potions at appropriate times.
Something for someone to consider/test -- reduce potion cooldown enchantments with Argonian.
You forgot this-
*Yawn*Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on January 9, 2018 4:24AM1 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Doing more than just holding block makes you yawn, I don't understand what you're getting at here?Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Easy I can provide a step by stepThe thing we need to focus on is how are we the players going to try and make builds to fit these new changes.
*Become an Argonian with race change sale.
*Heavy attack more and heavy attack when bosses are offbalanced. Making an addon for this you get bonus points.
*Use potions at appropriate times.
Something for someone to consider/test -- reduce potion cooldown enchantments with Argonian.
You forgot this-
*Yawn*
#MOREORBS3 -
Screamo✭✭✭I agree that as a community we kinda made the supportive tank meta. But in a way that also is one of the most enjoyable parts about tanking. At the end of a fight you could actually see what you did for the group, if we loose that part it would just be "yeaahhhhh I didnt die!" -.-8 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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How exactly are you losing the supportive tank though?I agree that as a community we kinda made the supportive tank meta. But in a way that also is one of the most enjoyable parts about tanking. At the end of a fight you could actually see what you did for the group, if we loose that part it would just be "yeaahhhhh I didnt die!" -.-
#MOREORBS0 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.
There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.
@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .
99% of the time , I have only 2 synergies . Conduit and orbs . That's really all . I very , very rarely get Ritual or anything else . Those nerfs to other synergies , making them usable at range only , makes it even worse . During the PTS test run , I saw the Ritual synergy few times . Guess where it was . Some random place where noone is standing at , far from anyone in the group . Every single time . I can easily say that synergies are far worse than what they are in live server .
These are just straight up nerfs to every PvE tank that actually cares about buff/debuff uptime , doing a single 4 man dungeon in PTS was enough for me to understand the difference .7 -
BlazingDynamo✭✭✭✭✭Pre Morrowind I use to tank end game trials on a nightblade. Including vMoL it was easy and super fun I loved every minute of it. But Morrowind..well it made it impossible. Not just the sustain nerf but Siphoning Strikes too. As long as the direction of tanking continues the way it is I'll never pick up another sword and shield. Sad days, I loved tanking but it really feels like too much work now a days.7 -
amasuriel✭✭✭✭Thank you @Liofa for putting this together so well.
In no particular order:- Heavy attack meta for tanks is even worse than for DPS.
- You will almost never die because you chose to heavy attack as a DPS character. If you choose to heavy attack as the tank in the wrong second you will die.
- If you run out of resources as a DPS you pull some lower numbers. Tank runs of of stamina in the wrong moment you will die.
- It's not going to be fun to have group wipes because tanks have to heavy attack all the time
- It's not going to be fun playing a tank when you life is reduced to 3 buttons, block, taunt and heavy attack, because you don't dare spend stam on anything else
- The skill gap will widen, but not in a good way. There will be enormous pressure on tanks to perform perfectly, and many people will no play the role because of how difficult it will be
- The sustain issues, as pointed out by OP, will make non DK and Warden tanks totally worthless. I mean they mostly are now, and maybe nobody cares, but it's painful how bad they are and how much worse it will be.
I agree that using more selfish sets is maybe what they want, to reduce group DPS, but nobody is going to want to run with a tank that has to run something other than Ebon / Torugs, and if the tank gets killed all the time trying to heavy attack they will get shamed into leaving the role long before they master it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say weaving heavy attacks is impossible, so no need to attack plausibility, I'm saying:
1) It's super boring play style
2) It will have a very high learning curve involving knowing each fight extremely well, and already it's hard to find real tanks
3) This change is driven by PvP, so ANY negative impact on PvE is bad, and the PvP fix should be handled a different way. ZOS isn't doing this because they think it will be more fun.20 -
Screamo✭✭✭
How exactly are you losing the supportive tank though?I agree that as a community we kinda made the supportive tank meta. But in a way that also is one of the most enjoyable parts about tanking. At the end of a fight you could actually see what you did for the group, if we loose that part it would just be "yeaahhhhh I didnt die!" -.-
Increasing a tanks blockcost buy 400% will be noticable and wont be that easy to counteract (is this even a word xD) by just doing one more heavy attack. It will defnetly force tanks to give something for more heavy attacking, which will probably be some sort of support as you cant just be like well i'll just skip taunting that boss^^4 -
munster1404✭✭✭Too bad, I just wasted my time levelling an Argonian tank. Only to realise two things: First, everyone expects a tank to slot Warhorn, which I don’t have at the moment and do not relish the thought of heading inside Cyrodiil except for Skyshards. Second, is the proposed nerf to block cost . It just sucks that I wasted a huge chunk of money/resources upgrading gear and jewellery to gold.
Seems that I will just concentrate on magicka characters as they are the least reliant on PvP skill lines. From now on, my Argonian tank and stam toons that lack caltrops will be relegated to crafters for the daily writs.Edited by munster1404 on January 9, 2018 4:57AM1 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tanking is not about support the community made it about support not the devs this is a player made meta so please quite referring to it as it was created by the devs and a real thing.
The thing we need to focus on is how are we the players going to try and make builds to fit these new changes.
@Nolic1 If you are not playing a support tank , you can still permablock easily with just a few changes in gear choice . Just some simple theorycrafting is more than enough .This change is driven by PvP, so ANY negative impact on PvE is bad, and the PvP fix should be handled a different way. ZOS isn't doing this because they think it will be more fun.
This is very true . PvE tanking had enough nerfs because of PvP , this was the worst one . Especially knowing that those permablock tanks in PvP are only a few that managed to make some low skill players mad enough to rage a lot in forums .14 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.
There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.
@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .
Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.
I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.#MOREORBS1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think tanking is incredibly boring- combine that with the ideology that putting in more stuff that you must block is the answer the making tanking more fun and you have a recipe for unfun.
Permablocking exists because there is simply too much stuff that can one/two shot the tank. You have certain fights where permablocking isn't required that are extraordinarily fun and taxing on the tank (VMOL twins for instance) because the tank needs to do a bit more than just eat damage.
As long as mechanics exist that force the tank to eat gobs of damage in high volume that are likely to kill him if he doesn't block, tanks will continue to permablock as required per the mechanics themselves. In MMOs where tanking was fun (City of Heroes, Neverwinter) good tanks had a LOT to worry about. Good tanks had to do enough damage to keep enemies on him. In COH, the threat modifier was 200% so if the tanks wanted to maintain AOE agro on a horde of mobs that exceeded the taunt cap or capabilities to individually taunt, the tank had to do at least 50% of the damage of the highest DPS to maintain agro. In Neverwinter this was 300%. Doing damage cost resources and often exposed you to attacks and therefore the threat wasn't getting one shot - it was getting CC'd while trying to maintain and position mobs and then taking a bunch of non-block mitigated damage that you couldn't recover from.
ESO has a few fights just like that - VMOL Twins is the closest high profile fight I can think of that follows that method and why it is the flagship for tanking IMO. Velidreth is also a good one to look at when looking at what and when the tank needs to control and block. But then you have incredibly dumbed down tanking fights like Possessed Mantikora who either a) one shots you if you sneeze b) kills you through block anyways.Edited by usmcjdking on January 9, 2018 4:53AM0331
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Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
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Heavy attacking on tanking has been around for quite some time though, if you are using Torugs + Infused Crusher then you sort of need to heavy attack weave abilities to get higher uptime on crusher cause if you just spam abilities you're going to run out of Stamina. Nothing should be changing from the current gameplay style to what this next update is suggesting.Thank you @Liofa for putting this together so well.
In no particular order:- Heavy attack meta for tanks is even worse than for DPS.
- You will almost never die because you chose to heavy attack as a DPS character. If you choose to heavy attack as the tank in the wrong second you will die.
- If you run out of resources as a DPS you pull some lower numbers. Tank runs of of stamina in the wrong moment you will die.
- It's not going to be fun to have group wipes because tanks have to heavy attack all the time
- It's not going to be fun playing a tank when you life is reduced to 3 buttons, block, taunt and heavy attack, because you don't dare spend stam on anything else
- The skill gap will widen, but not in a good way. There will be enormous pressure on tanks to perform perfectly, and many people will no play the role because of how difficult it will be
- The sustain issues, as pointed out by OP, will make non DK and Warden tanks totally worthless. I mean they mostly are now, and maybe nobody cares, but it's painful how bad they are and how much worse it will be.
I agree that using more selfish sets is maybe what they want, to reduce group DPS, but nobody is going to want to run with a tank that has to run something other than Ebon / Torugs, and if the tank gets killed all the time trying to heavy attack they will get shamed into leaving the role long before they master it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say weaving heavy attacks is impossible, so no need to attack plausibility, I'm saying:
1) It's super boring play style
2) It will have a very high learning curve involving knowing each fight extremely well, and already it's hard to find real tanks
3) This change is driven by PvP, so ANY negative impact on PvE is bad, and the PvP fix should be handled a different way. ZOS isn't doing this because they think it will be more fun.
I'm glad there is a skill gap, as there should be. Tanks who put the effort in should reward their group more, perma blocking does not give you high uptimes on crusher, this should be a known.
The only real differences I see is that you are going to need to be an Argonian and make clever use of their passives.
But lets be real here, having to do all of this because of PvP yet again, how ridiculous.
However, I find it interesting that heavy attacking tanks is a new concept for peopleEdited by Nifty2g on January 9, 2018 5:03AM#MOREORBS3 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
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You really do not need to use blockade honestly, if you are heavy attacking you can keep crusher up just fine doing that. Heavy attacking does not take long at all, you shouldn't be losing downtimes.I do not see these changes to block cost being anything different than on Live server in terms of sustain, as long as you are heavy attacking you should be fine. Do not forget about when heavy attacking an offbalanced enemy you restore double the resources which you can do every 20 seconds.
There are also more than just 2 synergies that you can use. And maybe groups might be setting up for that now, that would be a nice change of pace instead of just throwing all of your points into penetration CP.
@Nifty2g That is correct except one thing . Heavy attacks cost time which is used for keeping buff/debuffs with higher uptime . I honestly have no idea how I am going to fit heavy attacks while keeping taunt , heroic slash , mountain blessing , blockade and engulfing flames uptime while using balance to keep my magicka up .
Sustaining won't be that difficult if you roll the appropriate race and class for it, and we are end game players, running what is best in slot should not be an issue for anyone.
I agree these are straight nerfs and we keep getting tank nerfs because of PvP which is ridiculous but these nerfs aren't the end of the world, I kinda like these ones as it's going to make tanking a little harder.
I disagree with one point.
Tanks are getting nerfs not only because of PVP, rather also because they are capable of virtually if not entirely abandoning "tanking" sets for damage sets designed to boost group performance.
PVP is what people are whining about, but "tanks" running destro dps skills back bar is a microcosm of how far tanking has shifted.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..8 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭I never got why people complain about permablocking builds in PvP in the first place. It's annoying, but there is nothing effective about it.PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~9