The Current Destro Pain Train Meta Needs To Die

Mazbt

CyrusArya wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

I would rather not see combat mechanics be a factor in outnumbered fights, only skill gap. to better fix the issues currently faced by small scale fighting I would rather see the objective roles of these groups re-established within cyrodil and it's core game play. So as to prevent or minimise how often small groups get zerged down in the first place.

We need more points of interest. As it is, fights all revolve around a few key nexuses in cyroiil. As such, to find any action you gotta go to the general vicinites of these or lanes in between. And it’s a shame cus here is just so much space in cyrodiil with really cool terrain to. A few ideas I think are worth looking into are like resource node hot spots in cyrodiil, as well as traveling lootable caravans.

What I would like to see more than anything is an alternate PvP zone, bordering the current cyrodiil, where you que in as a group no larger than 6-8. Every single player in that zone not in your group is flagged for PvP. I don’t know how hard it would be to design and implement such a thing. What I do know is, it would make a lot of money and revitalize PvP.

I like every suggestion here. Should have went this route instead of the 4 v 4 v 4 battlegrounds imo.

IcyDeadPeople

How about nerf destro ulti slightly more and make dual wield ultimate player based AOE?

Sharee

Sanct16 wrote: »

Lets say you stack with 24 people:
6 people will take 100% dmg (so 7k), the remaining 18 will take 75% dmg (so 5.25k). The average damage a person in the group takes from each bomber is 5.7k (81.5%).

At some point (say 3 seconds after the first storm tick) 4 timed detonations will go off. The base tooltip of detonation is lets say 7k, increasing the more people you hit. This damage gets increased by 250% since you will hit enough people. So the effective tooltip is 24.5, so lets say it will hit for 10k.

Those will hit for lets say 8.15k on average.

The additive average damage taken after x seconds then is the following:
1 second: 4 * 5.7k = 22.8k
2 seconds: 45.6k
3 seconds: 68.4k + 4 * 8.15k = 101k
4 seconds: 129.8k
7 seconds: 192.2k

For a start lets consider the 3 second mark: the average damage taken so far is 100k. How much heal do we need to outheal this?

Lets say you have 8 healers spamming springs and you dont get negated, you can have 24 layers of springs, each tick healing 6 people for 2k average. ( 24 * 6 * 2k ) / 24 = 12k average healing per person per second.

So on average after 3 seconds you receive 36k average heal, meaning you died.

Lets say all healers cast heal ult hitting for 10k on average. 8 * 10k * 6 / 24 = 20k average heal.

So after 3 seconds you received 60k average heal, but you still lost 40k health, so you still died.

- There are ults that give mitigation to friendlies inside the radius.
- There are healing ults that do not prevent the caster from spamming springs at the same time.
- Your targets did not take defensive measures, like blocking the detonation.
- Be honest. How many times was your group hit by a perfectly timed 4-way EOTS+detonation the last time you were playing with them?

technohic

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

HaroniNDeorum

Sounds like a lot of players want a mindless, chaotic and super casual Cyrodiil instead of a challenger and populated map, while veteran players are trying hard to keep this pvp community alive with ideas and previously studied opinions. IMO we need a competitive Cyrodiil. Does people really want to see 60 or more mindless players with a bow light-attacking from keep to keep and doing nothing interested than stack numbers but no organization and in their limited game-knowledge "we have 60, they have 14 but they are killing us, nerf them and their tools!!! " if this is the road ESO is following, i can not imagine myself in this game for long time.

Many people just call nerfs and nerfs instead of call mechanics, PvP environment needs dynamics everywhere, map, scores, etc and real incentivize to become a more competitive player. There are ways to fight the "ball groups" but people is lazy/casual sometimes like life itself.

I already read all the posts here (maybe 90% of them) and i share Izanarys point of view, if "masses" want to shut down the last remaining organized groups/ guilds (and looks like is every thread goal) because most population can not handle them, the game will lose their, IMO, most attractive feature in an open field Pvp which is organized societies.

I want to finish my post with something i already said in other threads and even in-game to many pvpers of my alliance; people love to point their fingers to any direction except themself! just because a group of people is doing something incredible and very organized and dedicated, everyone else call it unfair and want to shut down or eliminate the pointed style, its such a poor thought. And i see it day by day in zone chat, people want to "compete" but they are not making any effort to improve so they want the opponent to be less competitive.


Also, @Rin_Senya , you are brilliant, best answer ever.

pd. Sorry for poor english or bag grammar, english isnt my main language.

Drummerx04

Sharee wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Lets say you stack with 24 people:
6 people will take 100% dmg (so 7k), the remaining 18 will take 75% dmg (so 5.25k). The average damage a person in the group takes from each bomber is 5.7k (81.5%).

At some point (say 3 seconds after the first storm tick) 4 timed detonations will go off. The base tooltip of detonation is lets say 7k, increasing the more people you hit. This damage gets increased by 250% since you will hit enough people. So the effective tooltip is 24.5, so lets say it will hit for 10k.

Those will hit for lets say 8.15k on average.

The additive average damage taken after x seconds then is the following:
1 second: 4 * 5.7k = 22.8k
2 seconds: 45.6k
3 seconds: 68.4k + 4 * 8.15k = 101k
4 seconds: 129.8k
7 seconds: 192.2k

For a start lets consider the 3 second mark: the average damage taken so far is 100k. How much heal do we need to outheal this?

Lets say you have 8 healers spamming springs and you dont get negated, you can have 24 layers of springs, each tick healing 6 people for 2k average. ( 24 * 6 * 2k ) / 24 = 12k average healing per person per second.

So on average after 3 seconds you receive 36k average heal, meaning you died.

Lets say all healers cast heal ult hitting for 10k on average. 8 * 10k * 6 / 24 = 20k average heal.

So after 3 seconds you received 60k average heal, but you still lost 40k health, so you still died.

- There are ults that give mitigation to friendlies inside the radius.
- There are healing ults that do not prevent the caster from spamming springs at the same time.
- Your targets did not take defensive measures, like blocking the detonation.
- Be honest. How many times was your group hit by a perfectly timed 4-way EOTS+detonation the last time you were playing with them?

Have you seriously never seen VE/Drac/Haxus/Fantasia go full bomb against another group stacked group in a choke? 30-40+ enemy players that essentially melt instantaneously inside negates and 4+ destros warden sleets, proxy, fear spam, and VD.

Bottom line, if AoE caps are removed, small 6 man groups are not suddenly going to be able to defeat large organized guilds.

Sharee

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Have you seriously never seen VE/Drac/Haxus/Fantasia go full bomb against another group stacked group in a choke? 30-40+ enemy players that essentially melt instantaneously inside negates and 4+ destros warden sleets, proxy, fear spam, and VD.

Negates, fear spam etc. are not part of the debate. If i may remind you, i was originally replying to Izanagi's post where he said

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I wanted to try and explain as simply as possible as to why stacking isn't an advantage in terms of AOE Caps and damage reduction:

So, my reply was strictly in terms of damage reduction from AOE caps and whether it is an advantage or not. My point was that this is an advantage because it makes an individual member less likely to die to an AOE damage spike, thanks to having a permanent AOE damage protection(almost 20% in a group of 24, as Sanct has shown above) simply by the virtue of standing close to other group members.

Sanct didn't really challenge this, rather he pointed out that stacking not only reduces incoming AOE damage an individual receives, it also reduces incoming healing that individual receives due to there being a cap of 6 targets a single AOE heal can affect. Which means if the damage is high enough, the group as a whole will not be able to outheal it.

That doesn't mean the 20% damage reduction isn't an advantage, only that it is possible to create a scenario where the disadvantages outweigh it. Just as it is possible to create a scenario where the opposite is true, for example if the incoming damage isn't high enough to overcome group healing, but healers didn't start healing right away for some reason and the 20% damage reduction helped to keep group members alive until they did.

NightbladeMechanics

technohic wrote: »

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

zyk

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

Even if they're not better players, a random crowd of players with no recognized leader has far less intelligence than an individual.

Just being organized with other players is a massive advantage. That's one reason I say players put too much into numbers in this game. An organized group of, say, 4 decent players vs 10 completely random players *should* win most of the time.

“The intelligence of that creature known as a crowd is the square root of the number of people in it.”
― Terry Pratchett

technohic

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

Yeah; it won’t work with random PUGs more than likely; but I think a lot of the players here who know what these ball groups are might. Even better would be some of the small 4-6 man teams I see fighting outnumbered and stretch the unorganized zergs out then pick them off 1 by 1.

Still probably not equipped for it I suppose seeing as most seem to be stam builds and it would likely need magblades or the odd nich magplar bomber I suppose

Drummerx04

Sharee wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Have you seriously never seen VE/Drac/Haxus/Fantasia go full bomb against another group stacked group in a choke? 30-40+ enemy players that essentially melt instantaneously inside negates and 4+ destros warden sleets, proxy, fear spam, and VD.

Negates, fear spam etc. are not part of the debate. If i may remind you, i was originally replying to Izanagi's post where he said

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I wanted to try and explain as simply as possible as to why stacking isn't an advantage in terms of AOE Caps and damage reduction:

So, my reply was strictly in terms of damage reduction from AOE caps and whether it is an advantage or not. My point was that this is an advantage because it makes an individual member less likely to die to an AOE damage spike, thanks to having a permanent AOE damage protection(almost 20% in a group of 24, as Sanct has shown above) simply by the virtue of standing close to other group members.

Sanct didn't really challenge this, rather he pointed out that stacking not only reduces incoming AOE damage an individual receives, it also reduces incoming healing that individual receives due to there being a cap of 6 targets a single AOE heal can affect. Which means if the damage is high enough, the group as a whole will not be able to outheal it.

That doesn't mean the 20% damage reduction isn't an advantage, only that it is possible to create a scenario where the disadvantages outweigh it. Just as it is possible to create a scenario where the opposite is true, for example if the incoming damage isn't high enough to overcome group healing, but healers didn't start healing right away for some reason and the 20% damage reduction helped to keep group members alive until they did.

I mean sure, if you are going to look at the problem in a vacuum, then the roughly 20% damage reduction is an advantage for the large group. My point was that the advantage isn't enough of a difference to matter in most cases. A small group bombing a large group either utterly destroys or gets destroyed. VERY rarely do I see the large group at 20% health after surviving a bomb and then praise AOE caps as their only reason for survival.

There's also a funny thing about RNG, it will be surprisingly common that a couple members of the group will take full damage ticks in a row. These are the ones that will proc VD and kill the group.

And the real problem as I see it yet again is centered around Earthgore. That set has literally made it almost impossible for a large group to die to a small group's well placed negate+bomb. The destro ball meta was really not THAT big of a problem until that *** set was released, because a good solo player had a reasonable chance to pick off members of a large group that over extended, and a small group had a reasonable chance to bomb a larger group.

It is beyond frustrating to see these groups farming in a keep for 30+ minutes (Including moves like jumping off the roof of a keep to bomb people below just to give their healers something to do) before getting bored and just willingly leaving the keep because they know the entire faction can't kill them, and there are no guilds currently on that can beat them

ZOS, please address Earthgore. The pvp guilds told you it was a bad idea from the get go, and you went ahead and released it anyway.

Agrippa_Invisus

Drummerx04 wrote: »

ZOS, please address Earthgore. The pvp guilds told you it was a bad idea from the get go, and you went ahead and released it anyway.

From the moment I saw this set in the patch notes, I knew it was going to be a problem. The guild immediately organized farming runs after the patch because we knew we had to keep up with the Joneses.

It's a shame, really, but you have to have it in a larger group due to how powerful it is.

I've recently been playing Sorc over DK since my DK is a GO and DK's are near useless beyond the first in the current meta. In that time, I have seen multiple Negates that I've thrown down get instantly gobbled up by Earthgore. I"m still learning timing, I admit, but the fact that I have to manually time my Negate drops for a mindless procc set that can eat by 200 cost ulti is ridiculous.

EG: We catch a DC guild sitting perched on top of a rock, watching the PUGs for a chance to bomb them. We come in on the flank and we're in the middle of them before they see us. The bomb is called, I drop a negate on them as it fires off (here's where my mistake occurs and it's a minor one, imo, in that I fire the negate about the same time as the bomb instead of a count of 2-3 after). This is the point where it's very, very likely this group should die, right?

Nope. Multiple earthgores fire, the negate is dissolved and they pull out of their self enforced choke and spread. We were able to handle their counter and re-bomb, but come on.

Massive positional and situational awareness error absorbed and a new lease on life extended due to a set that the player is not interacting with beyond equipping.

I hate Earthgore so much.

Joy_Division

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Have you seriously never seen VE/Drac/Haxus/Fantasia go full bomb against another group stacked group in a choke? 30-40+ enemy players that essentially melt instantaneously inside negates and 4+ destros warden sleets, proxy, fear spam, and VD.

Negates, fear spam etc. are not part of the debate. If i may remind you, i was originally replying to Izanagi's post where he said

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I wanted to try and explain as simply as possible as to why stacking isn't an advantage in terms of AOE Caps and damage reduction:

So, my reply was strictly in terms of damage reduction from AOE caps and whether it is an advantage or not. My point was that this is an advantage because it makes an individual member less likely to die to an AOE damage spike, thanks to having a permanent AOE damage protection(almost 20% in a group of 24, as Sanct has shown above) simply by the virtue of standing close to other group members.

Sanct didn't really challenge this, rather he pointed out that stacking not only reduces incoming AOE damage an individual receives, it also reduces incoming healing that individual receives due to there being a cap of 6 targets a single AOE heal can affect. Which means if the damage is high enough, the group as a whole will not be able to outheal it.

That doesn't mean the 20% damage reduction isn't an advantage, only that it is possible to create a scenario where the disadvantages outweigh it. Just as it is possible to create a scenario where the opposite is true, for example if the incoming damage isn't high enough to overcome group healing, but healers didn't start healing right away for some reason and the 20% damage reduction helped to keep group members alive until they did.

I mean sure, if you are going to look at the problem in a vacuum, then the roughly 20% damage reduction is an advantage for the large group. My point was that the advantage isn't enough of a difference to matter in most cases. A small group bombing a large group either utterly destroys or gets destroyed. VERY rarely do I see the large group at 20% health after surviving a bomb and then praise AOE caps as their only reason for survival.

There's also a funny thing about RNG, it will be surprisingly common that a couple members of the group will take full damage ticks in a row. These are the ones that will proc VD and kill the group.

And the real problem as I see it yet again is centered around Earthgore. That set has literally made it almost impossible for a large group to die to a small group's well placed negate+bomb. The destro ball meta was really not THAT big of a problem until that *** set was released, because a good solo player had a reasonable chance to pick off members of a large group that over extended, and a small group had a reasonable chance to bomb a larger group.

It is beyond frustrating to see these groups farming in a keep for 30+ minutes (Including moves like jumping off the roof of a keep to bomb people below just to give their healers something to do) before getting bored and just willingly leaving the keep because they know the entire faction can't kill them, and there are no guilds currently on that can beat them

ZOS, please address Earthgore. The pvp guilds told you it was a bad idea from the get go, and you went ahead and released it anyway.

Ash, right? Somhow I'm supposed to believe the big cheeses, head honchos, and top dogs at ZoS was actually there witnessing that and think, "yeah, that's the sort of gameplay we're looking for."

Anazasi

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

No what I think everyone is asking the random player is to join a guild work on contributing to group play and stop being part of the zerg mentality. You can win by attrition what look at what actually happened to cultures that used it exclusively.

Glory

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

ZOS, please address Earthgore. The pvp guilds told you it was a bad idea from the get go, and you went ahead and released it anyway.

From the moment I saw this set in the patch notes, I knew it was going to be a problem. The guild immediately organized farming runs after the patch because we knew we had to keep up with the Joneses.

It's a shame, really, but you have to have it in a larger group due to how powerful it is.

I've recently been playing Sorc over DK since my DK is a GO and DK's are near useless beyond the first in the current meta. In that time, I have seen multiple Negates that I've thrown down get instantly gobbled up by Earthgore. I"m still learning timing, I admit, but the fact that I have to manually time my Negate drops for a mindless procc set that can eat by 200 cost ulti is ridiculous.

EG: We catch a DC guild sitting perched on top of a rock, watching the PUGs for a chance to bomb them. We come in on the flank and we're in the middle of them before they see us. The bomb is called, I drop a negate on them as it fires off (here's where my mistake occurs and it's a minor one, imo, in that I fire the negate about the same time as the bomb instead of a count of 2-3 after). This is the point where it's very, very likely this group should die, right?

Nope. Multiple earthgores fire, the negate is dissolved and they pull out of their self enforced choke and spread. We were able to handle their counter and re-bomb, but come on.

Massive positional and situational awareness error absorbed and a new lease on life extended due to a set that the player is not interacting with beyond equipping.

I hate Earthgore so much.

You mean like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMd-dC4lwVA&feature=youtu.be

6 people vs. 12 players (plus additional enemies that come after the initial push). We strategically coordinate a damage drop, which would have been extremely successful if it wasn't for a single set that carried the enemy team to victory because they simply equipped it.

I hate Earthgore with a passion. It needs its own thread entirely, as it is possibly the most enabling and most disugstingly mind-numbing proc set this game has ever seen.

[Apologies for the 480p, I did a quick upload over the weekend and didn't have time to check if it went up fine (I can reupload and probably will)]

asneakybanana

I've made a thread about earthgore outlining how *** stupid it was ages ago and it had a huge response with a ton of responses but nothing from zos. The fact that running 3 or 4 earthgore in drac groups has increased our survivability to the point where we basically don't worry about damage unless it's like a 24 man stealth bomb where everyone pops destro is absurd. I think that the removal of EG along with a decent buff to solo bomber potential would go a long way towards nerfing pain trains. And I'm not talking about destro bombing, talking about leap or tether or shalk+db. And sure this would make bombing vs pugs worse but you won't be able to mindlessly destro bomb the pugs at least, would need to time tether and prox or shall and DB. Just my 2c

Drummerx04

Anazasi wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

No what I think everyone is asking the random player is to join a guild work on contributing to group play and stop being part of the zerg mentality. You can win by attrition what look at what actually happened to cultures that used it exclusively.

The problem with that is that the population does not support many guilds per faction. Many guilds don't actively recruit in zone (or if they do, you better hope you were online when the ad went out) , and the ones that do recruit can have a pretty bad reputation or raid leaders that just don't get along with people.

The drac podcast also pretty accurately explains that many people don't want to redo their builds to be a purge or rapids bot for instance. Some will sure, but to find a skilled 1vXer who is cool doing nothing but spamming rapids and maybe vigor is rare. So now your guild groups that you do have are mostly still casual and ineffective and still going to get run over pretty easily.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ash, right? Somhow I'm supposed to believe the big cheeses, head honchos, and top dogs at ZoS was actually there witnessing that and think, "yeah, that's the sort of gameplay we're looking for."

Yes, Ash from a couple days ago was the specific fight I had in mind. You know a group doesn't feel even slightly threatened when they start pulling such a risky move as jumping off a keep to take 70%+ fall damage while desto ulting onto pugs below. Of course when they landed Earthgore nearly recovered all their missing health instantly.

How little must they think of the 50+ DC and 30+ AD at that keep if they just casually inflict huge amounts of fall damage on themselves because they know no one can kill them in that fight anyway? That's the raid equivalent of a /yawn.

Satiar

This both makes me glad I retired, and slightly unhappy I never got to realize my dream of a 24-man VE raid with 24 Earthgores. It would have been beautiful.

Glory

asneakybanana wrote: »

I've made a thread about earthgore outlining how *** stupid it was ages ago and it had a huge response with a ton of responses but nothing from zos. The fact that running 3 or 4 earthgore in drac groups has increased our survivability to the point where we basically don't worry about damage unless it's like a 24 man stealth bomb where everyone pops destro is absurd. I think that the removal of EG along with a decent buff to solo bomber potential would go a long way towards nerfing pain trains. And I'm not talking about destro bombing, talking about leap or tether or shalk+db. And sure this would make bombing vs pugs worse but you won't be able to mindlessly destro bomb the pugs at least, would need to time tether and prox or shall and DB. Just my 2c

I will necro

Sarjako

Let's nerf everyone. And then everyone can quit and go do real life. ( I don't even have a bomber )

Rainraven

Anazasi wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

No what I think everyone is asking the random player is to join a guild work on contributing to group play and stop being part of the zerg mentality. You can win by attrition what look at what actually happened to cultures that used it exclusively.

I'm in a guild. I contribute to group play. When we run up against an EOTS ball we get flattened. (Which is the point of running the EOTS ball, no?) I despise them, and avoid them.

I can see you really, really, really like groups and guilds, but they're not The Answer To All Our Problems.

Drummerx04

Rainraven wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

No what I think everyone is asking the random player is to join a guild work on contributing to group play and stop being part of the zerg mentality. You can win by attrition what look at what actually happened to cultures that used it exclusively.

I'm in a guild. I contribute to group play. When we run up against an EOTS ball we get flattened. (Which is the point of running the EOTS ball, no?) I despise them, and avoid them.

I can see you really, really, really like groups and guilds, but they're not The Answer To All Our Problems.

Also, as large guilds hoover up good players, it becomes harder and harder to small group/solo. The overall population is so small that you either have no truly dangerous large groups, or nothing but

Vilestride

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Have you seriously never seen VE/Drac/Haxus/Fantasia go full bomb against another group stacked group in a choke? 30-40+ enemy players that essentially melt instantaneously inside negates and 4+ destros warden sleets, proxy, fear spam, and VD.

Negates, fear spam etc. are not part of the debate. If i may remind you, i was originally replying to Izanagi's post where he said

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I wanted to try and explain as simply as possible as to why stacking isn't an advantage in terms of AOE Caps and damage reduction:

So, my reply was strictly in terms of damage reduction from AOE caps and whether it is an advantage or not. My point was that this is an advantage because it makes an individual member less likely to die to an AOE damage spike, thanks to having a permanent AOE damage protection(almost 20% in a group of 24, as Sanct has shown above) simply by the virtue of standing close to other group members.

Sanct didn't really challenge this, rather he pointed out that stacking not only reduces incoming AOE damage an individual receives, it also reduces incoming healing that individual receives due to there being a cap of 6 targets a single AOE heal can affect. Which means if the damage is high enough, the group as a whole will not be able to outheal it.

That doesn't mean the 20% damage reduction isn't an advantage, only that it is possible to create a scenario where the disadvantages outweigh it. Just as it is possible to create a scenario where the opposite is true, for example if the incoming damage isn't high enough to overcome group healing, but healers didn't start healing right away for some reason and the 20% damage reduction helped to keep group members alive until they did.

I mean sure, if you are going to look at the problem in a vacuum, then the roughly 20% damage reduction is an advantage for the large group. My point was that the advantage isn't enough of a difference to matter in most cases. A small group bombing a large group either utterly destroys or gets destroyed. VERY rarely do I see the large group at 20% health after surviving a bomb and then praise AOE caps as their only reason for survival.

There's also a funny thing about RNG, it will be surprisingly common that a couple members of the group will take full damage ticks in a row. These are the ones that will proc VD and kill the group.

And the real problem as I see it yet again is centered around Earthgore. That set has literally made it almost impossible for a large group to die to a small group's well placed negate+bomb. The destro ball meta was really not THAT big of a problem until that *** set was released, because a good solo player had a reasonable chance to pick off members of a large group that over extended, and a small group had a reasonable chance to bomb a larger group.

It is beyond frustrating to see these groups farming in a keep for 30+ minutes (Including moves like jumping off the roof of a keep to bomb people below just to give their healers something to do) before getting bored and just willingly leaving the keep because they know the entire faction can't kill them, and there are no guilds currently on that can beat them

ZOS, please address Earthgore. The pvp guilds told you it was a bad idea from the get go, and you went ahead and released it anyway.

I guess you were at ash on Saturday?

Edit because I read back and saw you confirmed this. To be fair we also always pop a heal ult first when preforming that move. I do agree that EG is to strong though.

asneakybanana

Ignore me I'm stupid

A_G_G_R_O

Delete Kyne.

SugaComa

Why not just have it so ults cant stack

That way teams have to coordinate rather than just drop everything like a damn nuke

A_G_G_R_O

Nah get outplayed

Lucky28

SugaComa wrote: »

Why not just have it so ults cant stack

That way teams have to coordinate rather than just drop everything like a damn nuke

may sound good in theory but it would be detrimental to small groups.

Anazasi

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

No what I think everyone is asking the random player is to join a guild work on contributing to group play and stop being part of the zerg mentality. You can win by attrition what look at what actually happened to cultures that used it exclusively.

The problem with that is that the population does not support many guilds per faction. Many guilds don't actively recruit in zone (or if they do, you better hope you were online when the ad went out) , and the ones that do recruit can have a pretty bad reputation or raid leaders that just don't get along with people.

The drac podcast also pretty accurately explains that many people don't want to redo their builds to be a purge or rapids bot for instance. Some will sure, but to find a skilled 1vXer who is cool doing nothing but spamming rapids and maybe vigor is rare. So now your guild groups that you do have are mostly still casual and ineffective and still going to get run over pretty easily.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ash, right? Somhow I'm supposed to believe the big cheeses, head honchos, and top dogs at ZoS was actually there witnessing that and think, "yeah, that's the sort of gameplay we're looking for."

Yes, Ash from a couple days ago was the specific fight I had in mind. You know a group doesn't feel even slightly threatened when they start pulling such a risky move as jumping off a keep to take 70%+ fall damage while desto ulting onto pugs below. Of course when they landed Earthgore nearly recovered all their missing health instantly.

How little must they think of the 50+ DC and 30+ AD at that keep if they just casually inflict huge amounts of fall damage on themselves because they know no one can kill them in that fight anyway? That's the raid equivalent of a /yawn.

If you haven't figured out by now that group builds and solo builds are different than perhaps that's one of the issues that organized play faces. I mean sure it's easier to get a bunch of players together to run the map in mass zerg form. But that's not organized play. That's a Mob. One of the ways that you can tell the difference. Well the guilds that are running organized raids are all showing the same guild tabard. The Mob well it's pot luck and you know what that means.

Vilestride

Anazasi wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Sounds like to me; with dressing room available more players outside of ball groups should have a bomb setup. When they see a ball group or even just a bunched up Zerg ; they could then coordinate to hit at the same time; then just switch back to your regular setup for fighting.

You're asking random players with generally limited resources to have multiple builds at the ready and coordinate together against better players.

No what I think everyone is asking the random player is to join a guild work on contributing to group play and stop being part of the zerg mentality. You can win by attrition what look at what actually happened to cultures that used it exclusively.

The problem with that is that the population does not support many guilds per faction. Many guilds don't actively recruit in zone (or if they do, you better hope you were online when the ad went out) , and the ones that do recruit can have a pretty bad reputation or raid leaders that just don't get along with people.

The drac podcast also pretty accurately explains that many people don't want to redo their builds to be a purge or rapids bot for instance. Some will sure, but to find a skilled 1vXer who is cool doing nothing but spamming rapids and maybe vigor is rare. So now your guild groups that you do have are mostly still casual and ineffective and still going to get run over pretty easily.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ash, right? Somhow I'm supposed to believe the big cheeses, head honchos, and top dogs at ZoS was actually there witnessing that and think, "yeah, that's the sort of gameplay we're looking for."

Yes, Ash from a couple days ago was the specific fight I had in mind. You know a group doesn't feel even slightly threatened when they start pulling such a risky move as jumping off a keep to take 70%+ fall damage while desto ulting onto pugs below. Of course when they landed Earthgore nearly recovered all their missing health instantly.

How little must they think of the 50+ DC and 30+ AD at that keep if they just casually inflict huge amounts of fall damage on themselves because they know no one can kill them in that fight anyway? That's the raid equivalent of a /yawn.

If you haven't figured out by now that group builds and solo builds are different than perhaps that's one of the issues that organized play faces. I mean sure it's easier to get a bunch of players together to run the map in mass zerg form. But that's not organized play. That's a Mob. One of the ways that you can tell the difference. Well the guilds that are running organized raids are all showing the same guild tabard. The Mob well it's pot luck and you know what that means.

Drummer is seasoned in raid play Taran. He is aware of the distinction. He is simply concerned with the competitive parity of the situation.

Which is a fair concern.