theivorykitty wrote: »

ookami007 wrote: »

theivorykitty wrote: »

So if I am willing to accept a 3DD 1Heal group, or a 3-person group, then I want to set that in the dungeon finder. Otherwise we have to wait forever when, for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels.

In the current inflexible system, I 100% am fine with people pretending to be tanks. The system itself needs to be changed.

Let me correct your inaccurate statement. You state:

"...for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels."

An accurate statement would be

"for normal dungeons, I pretty much don't need a tank at high levels."

Sadly, I STILL see newbs dying left and right because there's no tank and they can't even take even a few seconds of aggro on normal. And that's under 50 and 300+ CPs.

I REALLY don't understand how that is possible, but never assume that what you experience as a competent player is what others experience.

That is why I'm saying that the system needs to give players like me the choice to accept 3DD dungeons. Or 3 player dungeons. Or 3 Healer dungeons. Whatever.

Rianai wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

[...]
"Fake roles" usually means "incapable of performing said role" which usually does equate to failed runs, on any content of consequence.

You shouldn't have to take the time to "figure out what's causing the issue" when a person incapable of performing the specc'd role is the issue. It's considerably different than someone hitting the wrong button or needing to adjust a bit to mechanics.

If you're using RGF with less than 4, be able to perform the function you've checked. It's that simple.

But then why isn't this thread about bad players causing failed runs in general? Why do peolple make it an issue with tanks and healers only, when it is not? Why is every dps player free to do whatever he wants, no matter how useless or even harmful he might be? Just because it is harder to deal zero damage than to do zero healing or taunting?
Quite often the players, that are causing a dungeon run to fail, aren't ready for the dungeon regardless of the role they choose. Someone who is unable to tank or heal a dungeon won''t magically become a good dps players, because those players usually lack some fundamentally knowledge about what they have to do in order to successfully complete given content. And imo being good at dps is harder than tanking or healing.

If this thread would be about "people shouldn't (knowingly) queue for content they aren't ready for" i would agree 100%. But i don't agree that it is only an issue with players queueing as tank or healer.

(Just had to finish a WGT run - after the original healer quit or got kicked - with a 52k hp player, who kept spamming bow light attacks without using any skills, was ignoring mechanics even after an explanation, and died because standing in stupid. He was cp800+. But i guess it was perfectly fine, because he queued as dps after all ...)

jabrone77 wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

1. People queueing as tanks for roles they can actually perform are providing an advantage (lesser queue time ability to actuallly clear the content) for everyone, not only for themselves. Fixed it for you.

More tanks = lesser queuetimes for healers and mainly other dps is a fact and has absolutely nothing to do with how successful the runs will be. It is just math.
Yes, players shouldn't intentionally queue for a dungeons if they know, they won't complete it unless they are getting carried hard. But that goes for every role. If a player knows that he can complete a dungeons without issues if he queues as tank with his dps build, why shoudn't he? It won't harm anyone. If a player queues as dps for a dungeon even though he knows he doesn't have enough dmg, how is this any different from someone queueing as tank or healer without being able to keep the party alive?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You can also ask in chat, and with the exception of 'tank,' which may be new terminology to anyone not familiar with MMO's, the other two are pretty intuitive.

Having the ability to do one aspect of another role is significantly different than specializing or focusing on that role. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.

As i said, a stam dps player with vigor can heal. It won't be enough for all content of course, and he shoudn't queue for content, if he knows his heals won't be enough, but technically he can be playing a healer and not breaking any rules, that would justify a penalty. Same goes for a dps tank who is protecting his allies by killing the enemies. Dead mobs don't deal dmg. He shouldn't do it, if he knows that him killing the mobs won't be enough to finish the dungeon, but otherwise, why not?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

And, FTR, I'm pretty sure this entire thread is not directed at low level new players that do not know any better - that's what experienced players offering good advice is for. I suspect it's about people that do know what the roles mean and simply are not set up for them. Even you know the difference.

Many people won't make a difference between a new player and a player intentionally not doing his job, when it comes to getting rid of players, that don't measure up to their expectations (and the difference isn't always clear).

You seem to equate fake roles with failed runs. But that doesn't correspond to my experience with pugging normal and vet dungeons. I've had more good runs with "fake tanks" than bad runs, even in vet dungeons, and i didn't have a single run that failed completely just because of a healer or tank not healing or tanking. But i had a bunch of really bad runs where everyone was seemingly trying to fulfill their choosen role, but without being very successful at it. And its usually dps players that are causing the most issues (that's with me playing a healer, if someone plays dps and is good at it, he might care less about the other dps' performance and more about healer and tanks).
Stop caring about what and how others are playing, as long the run goes well. If a run doesn't go well, then yes, you should figure out, what is causing the issue and either adapt and carry (if possible), explain and see if players change accordingly, or leave/kick. But no need to create issues when there are none.

The problem is, you're condoning a bad habit - one that will backfire down the line for most groups.

And it's not about caring how others are playing, until it affects someone that gets queued in with them when they cannot and have no intention of being able to do their job.

If you're premade 4 man, queue however the hell you like. If you're missing even a single slot and counter on RGF to fill it for you, it's no longer just about you - it affects those that play with you.

It sets a bad precedent. Period.

You can cross the street without looking and probably make it across without injury much of the time. The problem comes that one time a car is actually moving right along.

You miss the fact that it's random, so if you're using RGF, your Vigor "healer" better damn well be able to handle the task that comes up.

If you can't, either queue three of your friends, or don't queue at all.

It wastes other peoples' time.

"Fake roles" usually means "incapable of performing said role" which usually does equate to failed runs, on any content of consequence.

You shouldn't have to take the time to "figure out what's causing the issue" when a person incapable of performing the specc'd role is the issue. It's considerably different than someone hitting the wrong button or needing to adjust a bit to mechanics.

If you're using RGF with less than 4, be able to perform the function you've checked. It's that simple.

But, there's already a system in place for your examples. Vote to Kick them.
The entire "let's ban players I don't agree with" system is draconian.
Just kick them...it's no one's place here to punish.
When you do random content, you get random results. Not liking the results you're getting from randoms? Make your own groups. You want control of roles? Make your own group.
It's that simple.

Ballzy321 wrote: »

Lol people would abuse this so much. 1 wipe report everyone

idk wrote: »

[snip]

• Tanking is not just taunting. Is controlling the field.
• Healing is not one heal. Thats what fake healers do. Put on a resto staff and spam mutagen. Super easy to spot. But again, healing is way more than this. Is taking care of your team, giving them the buffs and confidence they need to give their best at their role without worrying about their health.
• Dps is not just doing damage. It prioritizing targets, burning them down and if needed supporting the tank in controlling.

idk wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You really had to edit out much to take my comment that far out of context. LOL

I also like how you attempt to belittle me by suggesting I lack experience in the game or have low standards then strongly suggest I am merely a troll. It is a poor tactic some go to in order to attack the credibility of the messenger when the message is inconvenient.

Just because you disagree with someone does not mean you should belittle, though it weakens what you say more than it affects me.

I find it odd that your last paragraph state "So, from your response" when you edited out over half of my response.

For everyone else, what Merlin edited out what examples of how the reporting system could, and most certainly would be abused.

There are no worries. This idea has so little support and Zos knows full well how atrocious this idea is and the corrupted it's use would be that a report function will not be added. Anyone who has read the threads created by mediocre players complaining about low CP or whatever can easily see how bad this idea is.

I believe I stated in this thread that use of the ignore function to prevent being grouped with someone would be a logical means to take care of this. Do not like someone's tanking then put them on ignore. Think a healer or dps sucks, ignore list. ofc, we have only 100 slots so choose carefully.

Now that is a solid idea since one person's standards might be more than a little extreme and the trolling a report function can add would not be an issue.

I addressed your chosen definitions of the roles, which are clearly incomplete. i will happily edit the reply to include your whole post, if you wish.

You're attempting to make the purpose behind those roles less than what they should be. I'm trying to understand your motivation behind offering those overly simplistic definitions. And the options I presented are the only ones I could come up with as to why. The question marks at the end also indicate they are questions, not statements - thus the answer is not known, because I've certainly not implied those are my minimum expectations.

I addressed the relevant points you provided.

Your ignore suggestion still doesn't address the underlying issue. It's not about "not liking" someone's tanking/healing/dps'ing. It's not even about a bad version of those things. It's about situations where it's blatant and willful when the capability and requirement (the actual ones, not the simplified ones) are known.

So I stand by my statement. I've no wish to group with someone if those are their expectations of what is required of a given role and they've been in game long enough to know better.

The standards being discussed are far from extreme. Be able to do the basic functions of the role you have indicated you are capable of performing. Again, lot of flexibility between a player initiated ban (which I've indicated I'm against, multiple times) and something that shows to other players you're either able, good, or flat out trying to play the system to queue faster. The voting system would take care of the occasional padded vote as well as the occasional troll vote. A pattern, likely an accurate one, would eventually emerge.

When you offer up qualifiers like "that's a fact, jack," I'm not sure how you could be expected to be taken seriously. Let me know if you'd like me to edit my post, if you truly feel that will strengthen your argument.

Otherwise, best of luck & have a nice day.

Absolutely not attempting to make the roles less than what they need to be (should be is subjective).

Your definition is merely you ur definition and based merely on your thoughts. Nothing more.

You are helping me make my point crystal clear of how poorly a report system would work.

See, your lack of experience compared to mine is shown in our difference of oppinion. I have tanked some dungeons with nothing more than a taunt and the rest was my dps setup.

No one came close to death and I never lost agro on the boss all while doing almost 50% of the damage (twice as much as each of the dps).

I am also experienced enough to know which dungeons I need to go full tank.

Any mildly experienced player would agree that it would be pathetic to report someone in the easiest normal dungeon medley because they used a taunt and wore dps gear while sing half the groups damage.

That's what you are saying you'd use the GF for. For a dungeon that doesn't require a tank at all. Sad.

Again. Thx for helping to prove my point of how poor a report system would work.

And again you make an attempt to belittle me by saying you cannot take me seriously merely because you disagree. Really poor tactics that show a weak argument.

For tank than means having a taunt. Nothing more.

• First, when the content requires it, the roles should matter and the people performing those roles should be capable. Not necessarily experienced, but capable. This includes being open to suggestion and willing to learn and take advice.
• Second, because the roles should matter, if for no other reason that to teach those aspiring to perform those roles or improve their skill with those roles, the content should require them to matter.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Before repentance was needed I've healed vDSA without an rstaff and merely BoL and repentance on my bar. Did almost as much damage as the dps. It was good for score runs.

If it worked for vDSA then most normal dungeons will be fine with one heal if the player is experienced.

So, in the end neither you nor Merlin will tell me what I need to have and use to heal or tank a dungeon. Yes. I've cleared every one of them in HM so I am well aware of their needs.

You merely have sown what Merlin has done and that is prove the point that the report system would be a poor idea for ESO. It is clearly a poor idea if it means the two of you are going to run around reporting that lvl 10 tank because he doesn't have the high level skills you expect. We can say similar about the healer.

If you did vDSA with BoL only its because:

• The group was good, needing little healing. Which is good, really.
• You had BoL maxed out. The simple fact that you had BoL confirms you had the base skill maxed out so that you could morph it. And passives of course.

So really, you dont have to be full healer. Nor wear a restorationg staff. But you would totally quilify as healer, since you have skills unlocked, morphed, maxed out and in your bar. Most healers you get in PUG do not. They simply wear a green resto staff and spam one button.

By the way, I have said nothing about reporting people in normal dungeons, but veterans. Normal dungeons are meant to learn. I do not expect anyone there to have all unlocked and/or know how to do stuff. Normal is very forgiving and meant to let you do things wrong.

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

If I can solo the dungeon in my dps spec, I’ll throw on Inner Fire and a resto staff and queue for whatever role I like and would prefer not to have to worry about griefers reporting me for not having a snb bar.

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.