Solution to fake tanks - add report function

TheRealSniker · December 2017

Stupid solution, the amounts of time ive been kicked from a random normal for not being a tonk/heals is ridiculous, MOST DUNGEONS INGAME DONT REQUIRE A HEALER OR A TANK

kongkim · December 2017

TheRealSniker wrote: »

Stupid solution, the amounts of time ive been kicked from a random normal for not being a tonk/heals is ridiculous, MOST DUNGEONS INGAME DONT REQUIRE A HEALER OR A TANK

Depends on your skills and level.

ookami007 · December 2017

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.

I think that's a terrible idea. That's a completely subjective and impossible to police.

Here's a few scenarios:

1) I'm a good tank, but some idiot who queued as dps is using sword and board so he can level it up and keep stealing taunt. Suddenly "I'M" the bad tank because he's an idiot. It's happened.. more than once.

2) Same scenario as above, except with a different idiot using a frost staff and then arguing with me that NO, FROST STAFFS don't taunt.

Other scenarios can easily include:

* Group of friends or guildies don't like you and report you
* Someone with 3 accounts forms a group with one person and then reports them... just because he can.

No, terrible idea.

LordSarevok · December 2017

I think ZoS agrees with my sentiment with the new info from the datamine: "Select the type of player you want to be, and we will help guide your choices by giving you hints as you progress"

I think this will do wonders for the new people who want to learn and do better. I just hope it's implemented well.

LordSarevok · December 2017

jaws343 wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Just en ide. Maybe good maybe bad

But some skills are already classified as tank/healer/dps skills in the game for each class.
Disable the class selection in the group finder if you dont have at last one skill that is classifyed for the roll?

And then don't let people change gear in the dungeon.

If will not fix it 100% but it will help a little i think?

The only issues I could see with this is that you can do adequate DPS without having any of the DPS marked skills slotted. Lots of AOE on a Heavy attack sorc build for example. I don't have the game in front of me right now, but I don't think Elemental blockade and liquid lightning are listed as DPS skills.

There lies the problem. You could easily Google a build like that and have it put together in no time. The terrible players don't even make the slightest bit of an effort to learn anything. Kind of like that little league kid who gets put in the outfield and chases butterflies the entire game but still gets the win!

ecru · December 2017

Alchemical wrote: »

That or don't let anyone with less than 20k health queue as a tank because seriously *** you if you do this.

I don't really see the issue with this, and think this might be the best solution. A few days ago I waited quite awhile queued into normal white gold tower with a "tank" who did not have a taunt and had 13.5k hp. It really sucks having your time wasted like that.

emily3989 · December 2017

kongkim wrote: »

emily3989 wrote: »

No thanks. I que normals as all 3 roles because I can solo them and it's easier and faster to fill the random requirements. I tell the others when I port in to try and keep up. People would get upset about it and report me cuz I am not "tanking" but rather killing everything for them

But what if you land as a healer and the other people are dying as they can't keep up?

Never happens as I am healer with a dps back bar so I always heal when needed no matter which role I get put into

jaws343 · December 2017

LordSarevok wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

Just en ide. Maybe good maybe bad

But some skills are already classified as tank/healer/dps skills in the game for each class.
Disable the class selection in the group finder if you dont have at last one skill that is classifyed for the roll?

And then don't let people change gear in the dungeon.

If will not fix it 100% but it will help a little i think?

The only issues I could see with this is that you can do adequate DPS without having any of the DPS marked skills slotted. Lots of AOE on a Heavy attack sorc build for example. I don't have the game in front of me right now, but I don't think Elemental blockade and liquid lightning are listed as DPS skills.

There lies the problem. You could easily Google a build like that and have it put together in no time. The terrible players don't even make the slightest bit of an effort to learn anything. Kind of like that little league kid who gets put in the outfield and chases butterflies the entire game but still gets the win!

My comment was more focused on locking players from a role based on the in-game classification of a skill. You would actually eliminate many viable DPS builds by doing this. Which would be ridiculous.

jaws343 · December 2017

ecru wrote: »

Alchemical wrote: »

That or don't let anyone with less than 20k health queue as a tank because seriously *** you if you do this.

I don't really see the issue with this, and think this might be the best solution. A few days ago I waited quite awhile queued into normal white gold tower with a "tank" who did not have a taunt and had 13.5k hp. It really sucks having your time wasted like that.

IDK, As long as you know mechanics, I think 18K health is ok for most normal dungeons as long as you have the resistances or shields. Falkreath Hold, Ruins, and Bloodroot would be the exception. Especially Falkreath and Bloodroot due to the one shot mechanics even on normal.

I tanked ICP this week on my PVP mag warden dps. Slotted inner fire and used annulment. 18K health and 20K resistances. No wipes. You just have to know the mechanics. Plus, a really good MagWarden tank can get by amazingly well with max magicka and an ice staff/inner fire. No sword and shield or max health needed.

zaria · December 2017

Has had 3 failed run, two was did not understand and was unwilling to discuss mechanics. It was ICP on the cabbage fight and COH2 on Mezeluth.
Last was BC2 on Imiril with no AoE outside of this one who also had to heal.
None was because of fake tank, yes tank would helped in ICP but killing off the adds was more important.
As I mostly heal I don't know the impact of fake healer, however all magic builds can heal, templar and warden without resto staff so position is easier to fill.

Rianai · December 2017

jaws343 wrote: »

My comment was more focused on locking players from a role based on the in-game classification of a skill. You would actually eliminate many viable DPS builds by doing this. Which would be ridiculous.

It would also eliminate viable healer and tank builds, because only very few and by far not neccessary skills are classified at all.

DarcyMardin · December 2017

I’ve only taken my real tank (fully geared up, max CP) into this event twice. The first time, the healer and I got two high level DDs whom we chased through the dungeon. I had very little tanking to do. The second time, we got a couple of low level DDs who didn’t seem super experienced. I actually tanked that time, but I wished I’d brought more DPS because the fights were painfully slow.

So yeah, I’m inclined to think that tanks really aren’t necessary for random normals (possibly excepting the DLCs and the level ll dungeons) as long as there’s at least one player doing respectable DPS.

Merlin13KAGL · December 2017

Rianai wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

1. People queueing as tanks for roles they can actually perform are providing an advantage (lesser queue time ability to actuallly clear the content) for everyone, not only for themselves. Fixed it for you.

More tanks = lesser queuetimes for healers and mainly other dps is a fact and has absolutely nothing to do with how successful the runs will be. It is just math.
Yes, players shouldn't intentionally queue for a dungeons if they know, they won't complete it unless they are getting carried hard. But that goes for every role. If a player knows that he can complete a dungeons without issues if he queues as tank with his dps build, why shoudn't he? It won't harm anyone. If a player queues as dps for a dungeon even though he knows he doesn't have enough dmg, how is this any different from someone queueing as tank or healer without being able to keep the party alive?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You can also ask in chat, and with the exception of 'tank,' which may be new terminology to anyone not familiar with MMO's, the other two are pretty intuitive.

Having the ability to do one aspect of another role is significantly different than specializing or focusing on that role. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.

As i said, a stam dps player with vigor can heal. It won't be enough for all content of course, and he shoudn't queue for content, if he knows his heals won't be enough, but technically he can be playing a healer and not breaking any rules, that would justify a penalty. Same goes for a dps tank who is protecting his allies by killing the enemies. Dead mobs don't deal dmg. He shouldn't do it, if he knows that him killing the mobs won't be enough to finish the dungeon, but otherwise, why not?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

And, FTR, I'm pretty sure this entire thread is not directed at low level new players that do not know any better - that's what experienced players offering good advice is for. I suspect it's about people that do know what the roles mean and simply are not set up for them. Even you know the difference.

Many people won't make a difference between a new player and a player intentionally not doing his job, when it comes to getting rid of players, that don't measure up to their expectations (and the difference isn't always clear).

You seem to equate fake roles with failed runs. But that doesn't correspond to my experience with pugging normal and vet dungeons. I've had more good runs with "fake tanks" than bad runs, even in vet dungeons, and i didn't have a single run that failed completely just because of a healer or tank not healing or tanking. But i had a bunch of really bad runs where everyone was seemingly trying to fulfill their choosen role, but without being very successful at it. And its usually dps players that are causing the most issues (that's with me playing a healer, if someone plays dps and is good at it, he might care less about the other dps' performance and more about healer and tanks).
Stop caring about what and how others are playing, as long the run goes well. If a run doesn't go well, then yes, you should figure out, what is causing the issue and either adapt and carry (if possible), explain and see if players change accordingly, or leave/kick. But no need to create issues when there are none.

The problem is, you're condoning a bad habit - one that will backfire down the line for most groups.

And it's not about caring how others are playing, until it affects someone that gets queued in with them when they cannot and have no intention of being able to do their job.

If you're premade 4 man, queue however the hell you like. If you're missing even a single slot and counter on RGF to fill it for you, it's no longer just about you - it affects those that play with you.

It sets a bad precedent. Period.

You can cross the street without looking and probably make it across without injury much of the time. The problem comes that one time a car is actually moving right along.

You miss the fact that it's random, so if you're using RGF, your Vigor "healer" better damn well be able to handle the task that comes up.

If you can't, either queue three of your friends, or don't queue at all.

It wastes other peoples' time.

"Fake roles" usually means "incapable of performing said role" which usually does equate to failed runs, on any content of consequence.

You shouldn't have to take the time to "figure out what's causing the issue" when a person incapable of performing the specc'd role is the issue. It's considerably different than someone hitting the wrong button or needing to adjust a bit to mechanics.

If you're using RGF with less than 4, be able to perform the function you've checked. It's that simple.

LordSarevok · December 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

1. People queueing as tanks for roles they can actually perform are providing an advantage (lesser queue time ability to actuallly clear the content) for everyone, not only for themselves. Fixed it for you.

More tanks = lesser queuetimes for healers and mainly other dps is a fact and has absolutely nothing to do with how successful the runs will be. It is just math.
Yes, players shouldn't intentionally queue for a dungeons if they know, they won't complete it unless they are getting carried hard. But that goes for every role. If a player knows that he can complete a dungeons without issues if he queues as tank with his dps build, why shoudn't he? It won't harm anyone. If a player queues as dps for a dungeon even though he knows he doesn't have enough dmg, how is this any different from someone queueing as tank or healer without being able to keep the party alive?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You can also ask in chat, and with the exception of 'tank,' which may be new terminology to anyone not familiar with MMO's, the other two are pretty intuitive.

Having the ability to do one aspect of another role is significantly different than specializing or focusing on that role. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.

As i said, a stam dps player with vigor can heal. It won't be enough for all content of course, and he shoudn't queue for content, if he knows his heals won't be enough, but technically he can be playing a healer and not breaking any rules, that would justify a penalty. Same goes for a dps tank who is protecting his allies by killing the enemies. Dead mobs don't deal dmg. He shouldn't do it, if he knows that him killing the mobs won't be enough to finish the dungeon, but otherwise, why not?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

And, FTR, I'm pretty sure this entire thread is not directed at low level new players that do not know any better - that's what experienced players offering good advice is for. I suspect it's about people that do know what the roles mean and simply are not set up for them. Even you know the difference.

Many people won't make a difference between a new player and a player intentionally not doing his job, when it comes to getting rid of players, that don't measure up to their expectations (and the difference isn't always clear).

You seem to equate fake roles with failed runs. But that doesn't correspond to my experience with pugging normal and vet dungeons. I've had more good runs with "fake tanks" than bad runs, even in vet dungeons, and i didn't have a single run that failed completely just because of a healer or tank not healing or tanking. But i had a bunch of really bad runs where everyone was seemingly trying to fulfill their choosen role, but without being very successful at it. And its usually dps players that are causing the most issues (that's with me playing a healer, if someone plays dps and is good at it, he might care less about the other dps' performance and more about healer and tanks).
Stop caring about what and how others are playing, as long the run goes well. If a run doesn't go well, then yes, you should figure out, what is causing the issue and either adapt and carry (if possible), explain and see if players change accordingly, or leave/kick. But no need to create issues when there are none.

The problem is, you're condoning a bad habit - one that will backfire down the line for most groups.

And it's not about caring how others are playing, until it affects someone that gets queued in with them when they cannot and have no intention of being able to do their job.

If you're premade 4 man, queue however the hell you like. If you're missing even a single slot and counter on RGF to fill it for you, it's no longer just about you - it affects those that play with you.

It sets a bad precedent. Period.

You can cross the street without looking and probably make it across without injury much of the time. The problem comes that one time a car is actually moving right along.

You miss the fact that it's random, so if you're using RGF, your Vigor "healer" better damn well be able to handle the task that comes up.

If you can't, either queue three of your friends, or don't queue at all.

It wastes other peoples' time.

"Fake roles" usually means "incapable of performing said role" which usually does equate to failed runs, on any content of consequence.

You shouldn't have to take the time to "figure out what's causing the issue" when a person incapable of performing the specc'd role is the issue. It's considerably different than someone hitting the wrong button or needing to adjust a bit to mechanics.

If you're using RGF with less than 4, be able to perform the function you've checked. It's that simple.

This guy gets it. Once it affects others, its no longer a play your way game. End of story.

LordSarevok · December 2017

Lets just hope that the upcoming patch where there will be in game tutorials on each role will help, as I believe most players want to be an asset vs a boat anchor.

Datamine info: "Select the type of player you want to be, and we will help guide your choices by giving you hints as you progress"

theivorykitty · December 2017

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.

I would only support this if there was a way for us to accept other group types in the dungeon finder.

There aren't enough tanks in the game. Period.

So if I am willing to accept a 3DD 1Heal group, or a 3-person group, then I want to set that in the dungeon finder. Otherwise we have to wait forever when, for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels.

In the current inflexible system, I 100% am fine with people pretending to be tanks. The system itself needs to be changed.

LordSarevok · December 2017

theivorykitty wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.

I would only support this if there was a way for us to accept other group types in the dungeon finder.

There aren't enough tanks in the game. Period.

So if I am willing to accept a 3DD 1Heal group, or a 3-person group, then I want to set that in the dungeon finder. Otherwise we have to wait forever when, for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels.

Man wouldn't that be awesome! I would queue up as a 4Dps or 3/tank 3/heal any day of the week! Except for some DLC dungeons. But ones like vWGT 3Dps/tank is the best way to go! It would also clear the queue time for Dps! I think it would be a win/win situation.

ookami007 · December 2017

theivorykitty wrote: »

So if I am willing to accept a 3DD 1Heal group, or a 3-person group, then I want to set that in the dungeon finder. Otherwise we have to wait forever when, for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels.

In the current inflexible system, I 100% am fine with people pretending to be tanks. The system itself needs to be changed.

Let me correct your inaccurate statement. You state:

"...for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels."

An accurate statement would be

"for normal dungeons, I pretty much don't need a tank at high levels."

Sadly, I STILL see newbs dying left and right because there's no tank and they can't even take even a few seconds of aggro on normal. And that's under 50 and 300+ CPs.

I REALLY don't understand how that is possible, but never assume that what you experience as a competent player is what others experience.

theivorykitty · December 2017

ookami007 wrote: »

theivorykitty wrote: »

So if I am willing to accept a 3DD 1Heal group, or a 3-person group, then I want to set that in the dungeon finder. Otherwise we have to wait forever when, for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels.

In the current inflexible system, I 100% am fine with people pretending to be tanks. The system itself needs to be changed.

Let me correct your inaccurate statement. You state:

"...for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels."

An accurate statement would be

"for normal dungeons, I pretty much don't need a tank at high levels."

Sadly, I STILL see newbs dying left and right because there's no tank and they can't even take even a few seconds of aggro on normal. And that's under 50 and 300+ CPs.

I REALLY don't understand how that is possible, but never assume that what you experience as a competent player is what others experience.

That is why I'm saying that the system needs to give players like me the choice to accept 3DD dungeons. Or 3 player dungeons. Or 3 Healer dungeons. Whatever.

Rianai · December 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

[...]
"Fake roles" usually means "incapable of performing said role" which usually does equate to failed runs, on any content of consequence.

You shouldn't have to take the time to "figure out what's causing the issue" when a person incapable of performing the specc'd role is the issue. It's considerably different than someone hitting the wrong button or needing to adjust a bit to mechanics.

If you're using RGF with less than 4, be able to perform the function you've checked. It's that simple.

But then why isn't this thread about bad players causing failed runs in general? Why do peolple make it an issue with tanks and healers only, when it is not? Why is every dps player free to do whatever he wants, no matter how useless or even harmful he might be? Just because it is harder to deal zero damage than to do zero healing or taunting?
Quite often the players, that are causing a dungeon run to fail, aren't ready for the dungeon regardless of the role they choose. Someone who is unable to tank or heal a dungeon won''t magically become a good dps players, because those players usually lack some fundamentally knowledge about what they have to do in order to successfully complete given content. And imo being good at dps is harder than tanking or healing.

If this thread would be about "people shouldn't (knowingly) queue for content they aren't ready for" i would agree 100%. But i don't agree that it is only an issue with players queueing as tank or healer.

(Just had to finish a WGT run - after the original healer quit or got kicked - with a 52k hp player, who kept spamming bow light attacks without using any skills, was ignoring mechanics even after an explanation, and died because standing in stupid. He was cp800+. But i guess it was perfectly fine, because he queued as dps after all ...)

A_G_G_R_O · December 2017

If you que for tank as dps just lie and say your running a non meta tank build and that it’s the lore of your character to not use taunt. They can’t kick you for being a snowflake, that’s just not how ZoS right rolls.

Us RP casuals are a protected class in eso.

#savetheFlakes

LordSarevok · December 2017

Rianai wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

[...]
"Fake roles" usually means "incapable of performing said role" which usually does equate to failed runs, on any content of consequence.

You shouldn't have to take the time to "figure out what's causing the issue" when a person incapable of performing the specc'd role is the issue. It's considerably different than someone hitting the wrong button or needing to adjust a bit to mechanics.

If you're using RGF with less than 4, be able to perform the function you've checked. It's that simple.

But then why isn't this thread about bad players causing failed runs in general? Why do peolple make it an issue with tanks and healers only, when it is not? Why is every dps player free to do whatever he wants, no matter how useless or even harmful he might be? Just because it is harder to deal zero damage than to do zero healing or taunting?
Quite often the players, that are causing a dungeon run to fail, aren't ready for the dungeon regardless of the role they choose. Someone who is unable to tank or heal a dungeon won''t magically become a good dps players, because those players usually lack some fundamentally knowledge about what they have to do in order to successfully complete given content.

If this thread would be about "people shouldn't (knowingly) queue for content they aren't ready for" i would agree 100%. But i don't agree that it is only an issue with players queueing as tank or healer.

(Just had to finish a WGT run with a 52k hp player, who kept spamming bow light attacks without using any skills, was ignoring mechanics even after an explanation, and died because standing in stupid. He was cp800+. But i guess it was perfectly fine, because he queued as dps after all ...)

Agreed.

dodgehopper_ESO · December 2017

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

UnversedNumber3 wrote: »

That sounds like an easy way for a 3 man premade to ban anyone that dosent meet their standards.

Unfortunately this is what will happen. Tanks may have the shortest queue - but usually the are blamed for literally everything and vote-kicked for no good reason. And here are the best ones I had so far:

- Doing group dungeon quest (the one that gives you 1 skill point)... others did not wanted to wait for me or even help me to complete that quest - vote-kick - 10 minutes waiting penalty.
- Not dying - yep - this happened... some DPS that was dying like crazy was angry at me because I did not die
once in a dungeon - vote-kick - 10 minutes waiting penalty.
- Not voting to kick someone... yep this also happened. Doing normal dungeons I almost NEVER vote to kick someone - just because... how the hell is a new player supposed to learn the boss mechanics ? ? ? By soloing the dungeon ?! Either way I did not vote to kick - thus they voted to kick me (#logick) - vote-kick - 10 minutes waiting penalty.
- Dying to one-shot mechanics in vet dungeons... 40K Oblivion (unavoidable dmg) - vote-kick - 10 minutes waiting penalty.

I could really make a list of even more absurd reasons but it would take a whole new thread to do so.
The point is - the current system has flaws and is incredibly abused. The curent vote-kick mechanics needs to be changed because (as far as I know) all is needed is 2 votes...

Your list of points is exactly the reason I think the OP's suggestion is horrible. My favorite is when a team freaks out about a Boss that can't be taunted or has anti-taunt mechanics and they freak out about it.

ictopbasli · December 2017

I have a Frost Mage Tank. Hope nobody thinks I am a DPS and report me for that.

LordSarevok · December 2017

Lol at the random boss aggro ignore mechanics. Got blamed for that on vDirefrost on Drodda this week! "you going to taunt the boss tank? she keeps aggroing on me and I don't have stamina to break free!"

rhapsodious · December 2017

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

UnversedNumber3 wrote: »

That sounds like an easy way for a 3 man premade to ban anyone that dosent meet their standards.

Unfortunately this is what will happen. Tanks may have the shortest queue - but usually the are blamed for literally everything and vote-kicked for no good reason. And here are the best ones I had so far:

- Doing group dungeon quest (the one that gives you 1 skill point)... others did not wanted to wait for me or even help me to complete that quest - vote-kick - 10 minutes waiting penalty.
- Not dying - yep - this happened... some DPS that was dying like crazy was angry at me because I did not die
once in a dungeon - vote-kick - 10 minutes waiting penalty.
- Not voting to kick someone... yep this also happened. Doing normal dungeons I almost NEVER vote to kick someone - just because... how the hell is a new player supposed to learn the boss mechanics ? ? ? By soloing the dungeon ?! Either way I did not vote to kick - thus they voted to kick me (#logick) - vote-kick - 10 minutes waiting penalty.
- Dying to one-shot mechanics in vet dungeons... 40K Oblivion (unavoidable dmg) - vote-kick - 10 minutes waiting penalty.

I could really make a list of even more absurd reasons but it would take a whole new thread to do so.
The point is - the current system has flaws and is incredibly abused. The curent vote-kick mechanics needs to be changed because (as far as I know) all is needed is 2 votes...

Your list of points is exactly the reason I think the OP's suggestion is horrible. My favorite is when a team freaks out about a Boss that can't be taunted or has anti-taunt mechanics and they freak out about it.

Ah yes, the "I'm going to stand far away from whatsherface on Tempest Island, and then proceed to get one-shot and blame everyone else" strategy.

Kel · December 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

1. People queueing as tanks for roles they can actually perform are providing an advantage (lesser queue time ability to actuallly clear the content) for everyone, not only for themselves. Fixed it for you.

More tanks = lesser queuetimes for healers and mainly other dps is a fact and has absolutely nothing to do with how successful the runs will be. It is just math.
Yes, players shouldn't intentionally queue for a dungeons if they know, they won't complete it unless they are getting carried hard. But that goes for every role. If a player knows that he can complete a dungeons without issues if he queues as tank with his dps build, why shoudn't he? It won't harm anyone. If a player queues as dps for a dungeon even though he knows he doesn't have enough dmg, how is this any different from someone queueing as tank or healer without being able to keep the party alive?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You can also ask in chat, and with the exception of 'tank,' which may be new terminology to anyone not familiar with MMO's, the other two are pretty intuitive.

Having the ability to do one aspect of another role is significantly different than specializing or focusing on that role. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.

As i said, a stam dps player with vigor can heal. It won't be enough for all content of course, and he shoudn't queue for content, if he knows his heals won't be enough, but technically he can be playing a healer and not breaking any rules, that would justify a penalty. Same goes for a dps tank who is protecting his allies by killing the enemies. Dead mobs don't deal dmg. He shouldn't do it, if he knows that him killing the mobs won't be enough to finish the dungeon, but otherwise, why not?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

And, FTR, I'm pretty sure this entire thread is not directed at low level new players that do not know any better - that's what experienced players offering good advice is for. I suspect it's about people that do know what the roles mean and simply are not set up for them. Even you know the difference.

Many people won't make a difference between a new player and a player intentionally not doing his job, when it comes to getting rid of players, that don't measure up to their expectations (and the difference isn't always clear).

You seem to equate fake roles with failed runs. But that doesn't correspond to my experience with pugging normal and vet dungeons. I've had more good runs with "fake tanks" than bad runs, even in vet dungeons, and i didn't have a single run that failed completely just because of a healer or tank not healing or tanking. But i had a bunch of really bad runs where everyone was seemingly trying to fulfill their choosen role, but without being very successful at it. And its usually dps players that are causing the most issues (that's with me playing a healer, if someone plays dps and is good at it, he might care less about the other dps' performance and more about healer and tanks).
Stop caring about what and how others are playing, as long the run goes well. If a run doesn't go well, then yes, you should figure out, what is causing the issue and either adapt and carry (if possible), explain and see if players change accordingly, or leave/kick. But no need to create issues when there are none.

The problem is, you're condoning a bad habit - one that will backfire down the line for most groups.

And it's not about caring how others are playing, until it affects someone that gets queued in with them when they cannot and have no intention of being able to do their job.

If you're premade 4 man, queue however the hell you like. If you're missing even a single slot and counter on RGF to fill it for you, it's no longer just about you - it affects those that play with you.

It sets a bad precedent. Period.

You can cross the street without looking and probably make it across without injury much of the time. The problem comes that one time a car is actually moving right along.

You miss the fact that it's random, so if you're using RGF, your Vigor "healer" better damn well be able to handle the task that comes up.

If you can't, either queue three of your friends, or don't queue at all.

It wastes other peoples' time.

"Fake roles" usually means "incapable of performing said role" which usually does equate to failed runs, on any content of consequence.

You shouldn't have to take the time to "figure out what's causing the issue" when a person incapable of performing the specc'd role is the issue. It's considerably different than someone hitting the wrong button or needing to adjust a bit to mechanics.

If you're using RGF with less than 4, be able to perform the function you've checked. It's that simple.

But, there's already a system in place for your examples. Vote to Kick them.
The entire "let's ban players I don't agree with" system is draconian.
Just kick them...it's no one's place here to punish.
When you do random content, you get random results. Not liking the results you're getting from randoms? Make your own groups. You want control of roles? Make your own group.
It's that simple.

Calsifer · December 2017

How bout, no sword and board/ice staff and a taunt in ability bar, No Possible Que as tank.

MaleAmazon · December 2017

This guy gets it. Once it affects others, its no longer a play your way game. End of story.

QFT.

Linaleah · December 2017

ookami007 wrote: »

theivorykitty wrote: »

So if I am willing to accept a 3DD 1Heal group, or a 3-person group, then I want to set that in the dungeon finder. Otherwise we have to wait forever when, for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels.

In the current inflexible system, I 100% am fine with people pretending to be tanks. The system itself needs to be changed.

Let me correct your inaccurate statement. You state:

"...for normal dungeons, we pretty much don't need a tank at high levels."

An accurate statement would be

"for normal dungeons, I pretty much don't need a tank at high levels."

Sadly, I STILL see newbs dying left and right because there's no tank and they can't even take even a few seconds of aggro on normal. And that's under 50 and 300+ CPs.

I REALLY don't understand how that is possible, but never assume that what you experience as a competent player is what others experience.

its very possible. outdated gear. inexperience. lack of passives, I didn't realize just how much of a difference CP made, until I built up some. its like night and day when it comes to survivability, and I'm not exaggerating. was playing through vestige story on new alt, forgot to distribute cp on them. it was actualy challenging and i came close to dying a few times. only to realize that oh.. I forgot cp. after distributing points? it became and absolute faceroll. same character. not leaving an instance. not changing gear. certainly not changing play style. CP is huge.

but this is why I really get annoyed when "tanks" don't at least slot taunt and don't even make and attempt to control the mobs. I mean... I ran a dungeon today on my healer that I soloed over and over during Halloween event. and it was harder with that group, than solo, just becasue of how wild the damage was.

there are a lot of skillpoints in game right now. spend ONE of them on inner fire. please. (and yes, I am aware that you cannot taunt everything away. but we are talking no taunt at all. ever. here. it works fine when your group is all high level players with some measure of experience. not so much when you have newbies in the group, like during this event - and from my personal, albeit limited experience, its usually the high level "heroes" that don't even bother slotting the taunt)