Solution to fake tanks - add report function

luen79rwb17_ESO

There are fake healers too. And hey... ALOT of fake DPS...

kongkim

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

There are fake healers too. And hey... ALOT of fake DPS...

When are you fake DPS?

rhapsodious

kongkim wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

There are fake healers too. And hey... ALOT of fake DPS...

When are you fake DPS?

It's a more arbitrary definition, and one that gets more lenient the lower level you are, but generally having some semblance of a build and rotation (namely, being specced into damage... someone brought up 30k health 'DPS' light attacking with a bow, which is a good example of what not to do), having enough resources to not fall over when the boss looks at you funny, and have a rudimentary knowledge of mechanics (like "don't stand in red" levels of rudimentary).

of course, a level 12 running his first dungeon isn't going to have anything impressive, so I don't really care that they take 90 seconds to kill the first boss in FG1. But someone at champion-level taking 90 seconds to do that shouldn't happen.

starkerealm

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You can also ask in chat, and with the exception of 'tank,' which may be new terminology to anyone not familiar with MMO's, the other two are pretty intuitive.

To be fair, I've had to explain this to a couple people during the event.

efster

I really don't understand the problem of "fake tanks" in normal dungeons in the first place. If you see a boss in a normal dungeon looking at you funny and you don't have self-heals/your red CP is all in Resistant/your block button is broken/whatever, just DPS while kiting it in a circle until it de-aggros. I mean, ok, your parse might suffer, but if you're worried about your parse in a normal dungeon PUG, you've got bigger problems than a fake tank...

starkerealm

kongkim wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

There are fake healers too. And hey... ALOT of fake DPS...

When are you fake DPS?

You're never a fake DPS. It's all those other DPS out there who don't measure up to your standards who are fake.

Though, seriously, fake DPS usually means a player who doesn't understand group content at all, and this may be their first foray into a dungeon.

Rianai

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

1. People queueing as tanks for roles they can actually perform are providing an advantage (lesser queue time ability to actuallly clear the content) for everyone, not only for themselves. Fixed it for you.

More tanks = lesser queuetimes for healers and mainly other dps is a fact and has absolutely nothing to do with how successful the runs will be. It is just math.
Yes, players shouldn't intentionally queue for a dungeons if they know, they won't complete it unless they are getting carried hard. But that goes for every role. If a player knows that he can complete a dungeons without issues if he queues as tank with his dps build, why shoudn't he? It won't harm anyone. If a player queues as dps for a dungeon even though he knows he doesn't have enough dmg, how is this any different from someone queueing as tank or healer without being able to keep the party alive?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

You can also ask in chat, and with the exception of 'tank,' which may be new terminology to anyone not familiar with MMO's, the other two are pretty intuitive.

Having the ability to do one aspect of another role is significantly different than specializing or focusing on that role. Please don't be intentionally obtuse.

As i said, a stam dps player with vigor can heal. It won't be enough for all content of course, and he shoudn't queue for content, if he knows his heals won't be enough, but technically he can be playing a healer and not breaking any rules, that would justify a penalty. Same goes for a dps tank who is protecting his allies by killing the enemies. Dead mobs don't deal dmg. He shouldn't do it, if he knows that him killing the mobs won't be enough to finish the dungeon, but otherwise, why not?

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

And, FTR, I'm pretty sure this entire thread is not directed at low level new players that do not know any better - that's what experienced players offering good advice is for. I suspect it's about people that do know what the roles mean and simply are not set up for them. Even you know the difference.

Many people won't make a difference between a new player and a player intentionally not doing his job, when it comes to getting rid of players, that don't measure up to their expectations (and the difference isn't always clear).

You seem to equate fake roles with failed runs. But that doesn't correspond to my experience with pugging normal and vet dungeons. I've had more good runs with "fake tanks" than bad runs, even in vet dungeons, and i didn't have a single run that failed completely just because of a healer or tank not healing or tanking. But i had a bunch of really bad runs where everyone was seemingly trying to fulfill their choosen role, but without being very successful at it. And its usually dps players that are causing the most issues (that's with me playing a healer, if someone plays dps and is good at it, he might care less about the other dps' performance and more about healer and tanks).
Stop caring about what and how others are playing, as long the run goes well. If a run doesn't go well, then yes, you should figure out, what is causing the issue and either adapt and carry (if possible), explain and see if players change accordingly, or leave/kick. But no need to create issues when there are none.

jaws343

Myyth wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Too easy to abuse. Letting players decide the reasons for reporting then having an automatic system in place to lock out the players that are reported will almost certainly lead to exploiting the system.

The easy solution is to not pug out with expectations. Yes, if you queue for tank you should probably actually tank things. Putting players in charge of policing this is not a good idea at all.

How can it be abused? you need reports from multiple RANDOM people in multiple RANDOM groups using group finder.
The worse that happens is a player cant queue as a tank for a period of time, its not a ban. They can still play the game and use group finder.

We already have a vote to kick feature which is self policing that has much more potential for abuse.
Vote to kick also isn't a good solution because nothing is stopping the player from just queueing again non stop as a fake tank.

This is not about reporting players performance, just if they queued as a tank and they are dps.

Fake tanks aren't really an issue in normal dungeons though. And when they are, the vote kick option is perfectly reasonable. For example, one of my randoms yesterday on my healer was with a fake tank on Bloodroot Forge. We burned through the entire dungeon with ease until the last boss. The fake tank could taunt, but he couldn't take the one shot heavy from the boss and caused us to wipe 5 times before we kicked him. Got a new tank in 5 seconds and he was happy to only have to do the final boss for his daily random on that character. All the fake tank needed to do was block the attack. But he didn't have enough health or resistance.

That said, the same fake tank would have been perfectly acceptable for nearly every other normal dungeon. A report function isn't necessary. The vote kick is perfectly viable. And for this event, if you are vote kicking before multiple wipes you are the problem.

Linaleah

I don't mind fake tanks, most of the time. i mind fake tanks with 19k health at lvl 30 that decide its an awesome idea to pull 3-4 trash packs at the same time, while they do not seem to have anywhere near enough defensives/self heals to live through it comfortable, so I'm stuck sprinting after them, praying that my ping doesn't screw me over and i manage to get that heal off in time... /end rant.

do what you will, as long as you can actualy pull it off.

LordSarevok

What about a report feature for bow light attackers, single skill spam (did one last night guy was 624 CP hard-casting frags non stop, no other skills or attacks the whole time...) sword and board dps, NB PvP assassins with no AoE or utility. "Fake" dps is the number one headache... Fake healers or tanks are negligible when the "Dps" is pulling 5k parses at best...

rhapsodious

jaws343 wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Too easy to abuse. Letting players decide the reasons for reporting then having an automatic system in place to lock out the players that are reported will almost certainly lead to exploiting the system.

The easy solution is to not pug out with expectations. Yes, if you queue for tank you should probably actually tank things. Putting players in charge of policing this is not a good idea at all.

How can it be abused? you need reports from multiple RANDOM people in multiple RANDOM groups using group finder.
The worse that happens is a player cant queue as a tank for a period of time, its not a ban. They can still play the game and use group finder.

We already have a vote to kick feature which is self policing that has much more potential for abuse.
Vote to kick also isn't a good solution because nothing is stopping the player from just queueing again non stop as a fake tank.

This is not about reporting players performance, just if they queued as a tank and they are dps.

Fake tanks aren't really an issue in normal dungeons though. And when they are, the vote kick option is perfectly reasonable. For example, one of my randoms yesterday on my healer was with a fake tank on Bloodroot Forge. We burned through the entire dungeon with ease until the last boss. The fake tank could taunt, but he couldn't take the one shot heavy from the boss and caused us to wipe 5 times before we kicked him. Got a new tank in 5 seconds and he was happy to only have to do the final boss for his daily random on that character. All the fake tank needed to do was block the attack. But he didn't have enough health or resistance.

That said, the same fake tank would have been perfectly acceptable for nearly every other normal dungeon. A report function isn't necessary. The vote kick is perfectly viable. And for this event, if you are vote kicking before multiple wipes you are the problem.

The other day I queued in with my sorc as a tank into Bloodroot. The group was stuck at the final boss, so I got in there and we one-shot him after I briefly told them what to do (like clearing the lava pools with the altar).

"This dungeon is so much easier with a tank!"

*Ron Howard voice* she only slotted Inner Fire and Empowered Ward

So even that one can be done with a DPS if you're resourceful! But a lot of it is player skill-related. I wouldn't recommend that people who aren't confident they can do the bare minimum for the role do it. But for 90% of normals it really doesn't matter.

Vets I expect people to have a build at least moderately tailored to their role, but for this event, everyone just wants to get in and get out.

kongkim

starkerealm wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

There are fake healers too. And hey... ALOT of fake DPS...

When are you fake DPS?

You're never a fake DPS. It's all those other DPS out there who don't measure up to your standards who are fake.

Though, seriously, fake DPS usually means a player who doesn't understand group content at all, and this may be their first foray into a dungeon.

Yah. But the problem is you are right on the first line. There are waaaaay too many people in ESO that think like that.
Just an example. Some people kick people from taking a two-handed into a dungeon as DPS. Its still DPS but maybe not the nr. 1 choice for the elite and pros.

A_G_G_R_O

I thought this was elder scrolls play how you want? In lore, my tank is a dual wield badass that holds aggro due to his sheer ferocity in combat the enemy has no choice but to recognize my prowess in battle.

I mean we let fake dps like light attack bow spammers que as dps right? This is elder scrolls play how the casual I want online and I’m a high risk damage dealing tank. I’m so triggered you are all just elitist streamer macro slicers, I bet you all animation cancel too dont ya!?!?!?

Animation cancelling is cheatin!!!!
#muhIMMERSION

kongkim

LordSarevok wrote: »

What about a report feature for bow light attackers, single skill spam (did one last night guy was 624 CP hard-casting frags non stop, no other skills or attacks the whole time...) sword and board dps, NB PvP assassins with no AoE or utility. "Fake" dps is the number one headache... Fake healers or tanks are negligible when the "Dps" is pulling 5k parses at best...

And here it is again. I do know that sword and board is made to be best for tanks. But you have items sets that give damage bonus to it and more damage if blocking and stuff.
Who are we to tell people if the like to make a DSP build with sword and board??

Too many people in ESO have set up a mind set about how other people has to play.

A_G_G_R_O

MUh IMMERSION

LordSarevok

kongkim wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

What about a report feature for bow light attackers, single skill spam (did one last night guy was 624 CP hard-casting frags non stop, no other skills or attacks the whole time...) sword and board dps, NB PvP assassins with no AoE or utility. "Fake" dps is the number one headache... Fake healers or tanks are negligible when the "Dps" is pulling 5k parses at best...

And here it is again. I do know that sword and board is made to be best for tanks. But you have items sets that give damage bonus to it and more damage if blocking and stuff.
Who are we to tell people if the like to make a DSP build with sword and board??

Too many people in ESO have set up a mind set about how other people has to play.

I really don't care what you wear. But when it takes you nearly a full minute to kill one trash mob... Well, then I start to care. The play your way attitude is now affecting an entire group and is no longer a personal choice. I could literally leave the group, take the 15 minute penalty, re queue, get a decent dps and finish faster. There is not an excuse in my book when sites like AlcastHq and many others exist. I don't expect a new player to pull high dps. I expect them to make an effort. Light attack spam is not even a remote effort. The play your way loses all traction when you step into an instance with 3 others who value their game time. If I am on my dps char I could care less what any of the other 3 are, as I can solo most normal dungeons. If I am on my Main tank who is 100% pure defensive/utility, and I can kill a trash mob faster? Then we have a real problem.

It takes 20 minutes to look up a easy beginner dps guide. No. Excuses.

LordSarevok

kongkim wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

What about a report feature for bow light attackers, single skill spam (did one last night guy was 624 CP hard-casting frags non stop, no other skills or attacks the whole time...) sword and board dps, NB PvP assassins with no AoE or utility. "Fake" dps is the number one headache... Fake healers or tanks are negligible when the "Dps" is pulling 5k parses at best...

And here it is again. I do know that sword and board is made to be best for tanks. But you have items sets that give damage bonus to it and more damage if blocking and stuff.
Who are we to tell people if the like to make a DSP build with sword and board??

Too many people in ESO have set up a mind set about how other people has to play.

As an addition to this also. Just to test I got on my banker alt and just asked for help in Deshaan zone chat. I just simply said "Hey guys I'm new to the game, can anybody recommend a site or a decent Nightblade build?" I was literally flooded with whispers from helpful people, some even offering to group with me to show me the ropes, and had multiple guild invites from newbie friendly guilds. like I said before... No. Excuse.

Want to RP and have fun, quest as whatever hybrid you like? No problem, I help those people out any chance I get. Step into a dungeon, or trial? Now you are on my time. Kind of like the person who drives 10MPH below the speed limit in the passing lane.

idk

swirve wrote: »

Add block feature so you dont get matchmade with them would be a good addition.

This is the solution. Our ignore list should block being grouped with someoek via the GF.

Super simple and strait forward. Significantly better than a report function hat can be used maliciously. Might take Zos a few moments to figure out how to tie them together. Have seen this in other games.

Don't want to run with someone just put them on your ignore list (after Zos makes it function like that). No one needs to know what. Just do it.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_MattFiror

jaws343

LordSarevok wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

What about a report feature for bow light attackers, single skill spam (did one last night guy was 624 CP hard-casting frags non stop, no other skills or attacks the whole time...) sword and board dps, NB PvP assassins with no AoE or utility. "Fake" dps is the number one headache... Fake healers or tanks are negligible when the "Dps" is pulling 5k parses at best...

And here it is again. I do know that sword and board is made to be best for tanks. But you have items sets that give damage bonus to it and more damage if blocking and stuff.
Who are we to tell people if the like to make a DSP build with sword and board??

Too many people in ESO have set up a mind set about how other people has to play.

I really don't care what you wear. But when it takes you nearly a full minute to kill one trash mob... Well, then I start to care. The play your way attitude is now affecting an entire group and is no longer a personal choice. I could literally leave the group, take the 15 minute penalty, re queue, get a decent dps and finish faster. There is not an excuse in my book when sites like AlcastHq and many others exist. I don't expect a new player to pull high dps. I expect them to make an effort. Light attack spam is not even a remote effort. The play your way loses all traction when you step into an instance with 3 others who value their game time. If I am on my dps char I could care less what any of the other 3 are, as I can solo most normal dungeons. If I am on my Main tank who is 100% pure defensive/utility, and I can kill a trash mob faster? Then we have a real problem.

It takes 20 minutes to look up a easy beginner dps guide. No. Excuses.

In normal instances sure and in vet dungeons definitely. But for this event too bad. I am not spending gold and resources respeccing my single target PVP builds for a week just so they can clear a dungeon just a few seconds faster. I have 11 characters, 6 of which are single target PVP builds. It's a dungeon finder event. Normal dungeons are easy and as long as players aren't dying repeatedly, it doesn't matter what their dps is.

kongkim

LordSarevok wrote: »

kongkim wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

What about a report feature for bow light attackers, single skill spam (did one last night guy was 624 CP hard-casting frags non stop, no other skills or attacks the whole time...) sword and board dps, NB PvP assassins with no AoE or utility. "Fake" dps is the number one headache... Fake healers or tanks are negligible when the "Dps" is pulling 5k parses at best...

And here it is again. I do know that sword and board is made to be best for tanks. But you have items sets that give damage bonus to it and more damage if blocking and stuff.
Who are we to tell people if the like to make a DSP build with sword and board??

Too many people in ESO have set up a mind set about how other people has to play.

I really don't care what you wear. But when it takes you nearly a full minute to kill one trash mob... Well, then I start to care. The play your way attitude is now affecting an entire group and is no longer a personal choice. I could literally leave the group, take the 15 minute penalty, re queue, get a decent dps and finish faster. There is not an excuse in my book when sites like AlcastHq and many others exist. I don't expect a new player to pull high dps. I expect them to make an effort. Light attack spam is not even a remote effort. The play your way loses all traction when you step into an instance with 3 others who value their game time. If I am on my dps char I could care less what any of the other 3 are, as I can solo most normal dungeons. If I am on my Main tank who is 100% pure defensive/utility, and I can kill a trash mob faster? Then we have a real problem.

It takes 20 minutes to look up a easy beginner dps guide. No. Excuses.

It's not to find an excuse.. But what you are doing is telling people how to play.
Many casual players don't find guilds and just use the skills they like to use and find fun. And that is why we have random dungeons that is for everyone. If people don't like it they have to go make a premade group.

Too many elite and max/min people in ESO and it really ruin the game a bit.

So to get back to the topic. It's really hard to classify what fake classing is. most thing people say is their own opinion and not something you can make a game mechanic around.

idk

LordSarevok wrote: »

What about a report feature for bow light attackers, single skill spam (did one last night guy was 624 CP hard-casting frags non stop, no other skills or attacks the whole time...) sword and board dps, NB PvP assassins with no AoE or utility. "Fake" dps is the number one headache... Fake healers or tanks are negligible when the "Dps" is pulling 5k parses at best...

This is an extreme example of how a reporting system would be abused. It's also a prime example of how wrong players are when they say kick anyone below X CP.

People would report players just because.

Don't like their CP level = report.
Dps does a HA with a frost staff = report the tank did losing agro.

It makes Sos the build police and I guarantee they will not take up that mantle.

For these reasons a reporting system will not be added. It just does more bad than good. Don't think it would do any good.

LordSarevok

I literally don't even look at CP or characters till we engage and the enemy health bars don't move. And to the above poster on the PvP chars? Yes respec. If I go into PvP for double AP week I always respec and have PvP gear on my characters, have siege, camps, rams, and repair kits for keeps/doors. Not doing so makes you a selfish/lazy person who is a detriment to the "TEAM". Ever had that one person on any project or team based activity who refuses to practice or research? That's you. The team then has to carry you to the detriment of the whole.

Kel

Am I the only one that cares about the forward progression of the group? I don't really care about the roles.
All this comes down to is one person telling another person "No...you're doing it wrong!" despite what the outcome is.
The point of the dungeon is to progress through and beat the end boss. If you can't do that, then it should be a problem no matter if you're in a proper group or not. I've run plenty of dungeons that couldn't get it done with proper roles..probably more so than this "fake role" problem I've seen pop up the last few days. Before this event, it was "If you don't have CP *arbitrary #*, then don't run dungeons" or "If you don't know your DPS, don't run dungeons"...this just seems to be the complaint of the week.
Can progressing through the dungeon be the focus? That's the point. If you can't, even with a "proper" group, that should be the issue.
Fake roles are only an issue if it's causing wipes..just like any role, even proper ones. If it's not causing wipes, why is it an issue?

emily3989

No thanks. I que normals as all 3 roles because I can solo them and it's easier and faster to fill the random requirements. I tell the others when I port in to try and keep up. People would get upset about it and report me cuz I am not "tanking" but rather killing everything for them

LordSarevok

Maybe make it like old school Gran Turismo. You have to earn a license to play the content. I can think of no other way since this game drops players in and they refuse to seek the knowledge to get better. Want to DPS vRoM? Sure thing buddy, just parse 20k minimum dps on this test dummy. Want to tank that Dlc dungeon? Sure, just make it through this mechanics test to see patterns and interrupts and be able to hold aggro and withstand a few hard hits.

I was a nub at one point (still am to the hardcore). Know what the difference between me and those guys would be? I sought out knowledge and stayed away from content that I would have had a net negative effect on. Pretty simple.

Once you get in line and start counting a purse full of pennies to pay for your food on my limited lunch time. You are now affecting me. Want to make 10 separate orders in the drive-through in rush hour? You are now affecting me.


It's called common courtesy and it is severely lacking. I go out of my way to be a considerate person.

jaws343

LordSarevok wrote: »

I literally don't even look at CP or characters till we engage and the enemy health bars don't move. And to the above poster on the PvP chars? Yes respec. If I go into PvP for double AP week I always respec and have PvP gear on my characters, have siege, camps, rams, and repair kits for keeps/doors. Not doing so makes you a selfish/lazy person who is a detriment to the "TEAM". Ever had that one person on any project or team based activity who refuses to practice or research? That's you. The team then has to carry you to the detriment of the whole.

In a PVP setting I agree. But really, there hasn't been a PVP event that incentivizes playing multiple toons through. Double AP events require one PVP specced character. The cost to respec 6 character for a week long event is too much and not necessary. Again, as long as you do not die, DPS doesn't matter on normal dungeons, especially when all it will do is help clear the mobs a little faster. Most PVP builds are single target specced, meaning the damage done to bosses will be greater anyways. I have done more carrying on my PVP specced characters during this event because inexperienced players don't know how to actually survive a dungeon and are more concerned about pushing out as much damage as possible.

kongkim

emily3989 wrote: »

No thanks. I que normals as all 3 roles because I can solo them and it's easier and faster to fill the random requirements. I tell the others when I port in to try and keep up. People would get upset about it and report me cuz I am not "tanking" but rather killing everything for them

But what if you land as a healer and the other people are dying as they can't keep up?

kongkim

Just en ide. Maybe good maybe bad

But some skills are already classified as tank/healer/dps skills in the game for each class.
Disable the class selection in the group finder if you dont have at last one skill that is classifyed for the roll?

And then don't let people change gear in the dungeon.

If will not fix it 100% but it will help a little i think?

LordSarevok

I am a trial player, yet run a small newbie friendly guild as well (around 200 members). I make the time each and every week to help groom newer players, craft all gear for free, dungeons, normal trials, mechanics, general knowledge, skyshards, lorebooks, world bosses, etc. Hell, I even get into RP scenarios (in a fabricated character persona) to help RP guildies, and go out of my way to be helpful and not break their RP wall.

There is a huge difference between a leach and a nub. Help the nub, get rid of the leach.

jaws343

kongkim wrote: »

Just en ide. Maybe good maybe bad

But some skills are already classified as tank/healer/dps skills in the game for each class.
Disable the class selection in the group finder if you dont have at last one skill that is classifyed for the roll?

And then don't let people change gear in the dungeon.

If will not fix it 100% but it will help a little i think?

The only issues I could see with this is that you can do adequate DPS without having any of the DPS marked skills slotted. Lots of AOE on a Heavy attack sorc build for example. I don't have the game in front of me right now, but I don't think Elemental blockade and liquid lightning are listed as DPS skills.