Solution to fake tanks - add report function

Dark_Lord_Kuro · December 2017

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.

Ok then after i cant thank anymore i'llbring my real tank as a fake dps because i cant tank anymore and it will be your fault

zaria · December 2017

Mojmir wrote: »

If I could solo normal random without needing the group finder for the event I would. *** is beyond easy with no tank or healer if you know your class and skills set up.

Then you can queue as tank obviously, if you solo it you tank anyway, the other two dd helps in clearing it and healer let you focus on dps.
Tank is an role,

phileunderx2 · December 2017

Not sure if they could do this but if you go through the dungeon and no healing skills or taunts are used on the majority of the boss fights then that character gets no rewards for that dungeon. Of course only have this in group finder dungeons. If you do a pre made then you can do whatever you want.

duendology · December 2017

Denyiir wrote: »

No offense but this idea is ridiculous. You really think ZoS would give players a power to basically ban other people from some parts of the game ?

I so agree!
And such a solution leads to pure power abuse!

Myyth · December 2017

duendology wrote: »

Denyiir wrote: »

No offense but this idea is ridiculous. You really think ZoS would give players a power to basically ban other people from some parts of the game ?

I so agree!
And such a solution leads to pure power abuse!

ok I have to repeat myself again.

It DOES NOT ban people from the game. It only LOCKS the tank and healer role option FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.
They can still use group finder.
But they have to chose DPS and wait in line just like everyone else.
If they want to DPS a dungeon, then go ahead, nothing is stopping them.

I don't get why people think this is such a bad idea.
It is not an abuse of power, it does not ban the player, it only prevents them from choosing tank or healer for a short period of time.

All it does is stop people from abusing the system to bypass the queue.

Rouven · December 2017

Get rid of taunt mechanics, whoever queues as tank gets 85% aggro from every mob in the dungeon automatically.

Brutusmax1mus · December 2017

As long as they taunt i do not care. Infact, all my 4 man tanks are dps builds too make up for the players who claim to be dps but are actually just bad at three game.

If dps isn't over 25k i consider them to not be dps, it goes both ways.

alanmatillab16_ESO · December 2017

There is no need for another game system to be developed to deal with this. There is already a system that works every single time:

Form your group from friends/guildies. I know it is radical thinking and will probably trigger someone but guilds exist not just so people have somewhere to sell stuff.

disintegr8 · December 2017

I say that a simple vote to kick should be tried and if that fails move on.

I have encountered fake tanks, low DPS and the 'run ahead' during the 4 dungeons I have run in the event. This is all in normal mode and high CP players simply say that it doesn't matter, we don't need this, that, or the other because it is not vet.

My response is always that if you want to run the dungeon your way, don't use group finder. Being able to do 30k dps when queued as a tank with no taunts does not make the lower level healer feel better when he is running away from the boss to save his own skin.

Unless ZOS implement some automatic checks in the group finder, which would be hard to do, it will often be an individuals concept of what is good or bad, which may be different from other peoples.

redspecter23 · December 2017

Myyth wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Too easy to abuse. Letting players decide the reasons for reporting then having an automatic system in place to lock out the players that are reported will almost certainly lead to exploiting the system.

The easy solution is to not pug out with expectations. Yes, if you queue for tank you should probably actually tank things. Putting players in charge of policing this is not a good idea at all.

How can it be abused? you need reports from multiple RANDOM people in multiple RANDOM groups using group finder.
The worse that happens is a player cant queue as a tank for a period of time, its not a ban. They can still play the game and use group finder.

We already have a vote to kick feature which is self policing that has much more potential for abuse.
Vote to kick also isn't a good solution because nothing is stopping the player from just queueing again non stop as a fake tank.

This is not about reporting players performance, just if they queued as a tank and they are dps.

Whenever you give players the power to ban others, even if it's just from certain features of the game, it will be abused. You assume everyone will use this in the way the OP intends. Some people will report because the tank lagged out, is too slow, doesn't have the "right" sets equipped or just because they feel like being dinks. In a perfect world, this might work, but there is no way it would be fair if implemented the way the OP describes. Thinking otherwise is just being naive.

MaleAmazon · December 2017

My suggestion is this:

1. If suspected fake tank/healer, stop playing and call them out.

2. If they dont respond or dont respond in a decent manner, vote to kick and put them on ignore.

3. If kick fails, leave immediately.

Really, you´ll save yourself the trouble and be happier. Trust me. Dealing with toxic or otherwise disruptive players is a no-win, it´s the game company´s responsibility to deal with them, and in the current atmosphere most companies dont seem to care (if this was anything other than a computer game they would have been kicked out). It´s a no-win, best you can do is damage control.

D0PAMINE · December 2017

How about more people play as tanks and healers?

Myyth · December 2017

redspecter23 wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Too easy to abuse. Letting players decide the reasons for reporting then having an automatic system in place to lock out the players that are reported will almost certainly lead to exploiting the system.

The easy solution is to not pug out with expectations. Yes, if you queue for tank you should probably actually tank things. Putting players in charge of policing this is not a good idea at all.

How can it be abused? you need reports from multiple RANDOM people in multiple RANDOM groups using group finder.
The worse that happens is a player cant queue as a tank for a period of time, its not a ban. They can still play the game and use group finder.

We already have a vote to kick feature which is self policing that has much more potential for abuse.
Vote to kick also isn't a good solution because nothing is stopping the player from just queueing again non stop as a fake tank.

This is not about reporting players performance, just if they queued as a tank and they are dps.

Whenever you give players the power to ban others, even if it's just from certain features of the game, it will be abused. You assume everyone will use this in the way the OP intends. Some people will report because the tank lagged out, is too slow, doesn't have the "right" sets equipped or just because they feel like being dinks. In a perfect world, this might work, but there is no way it would be fair if implemented the way the OP describes. Thinking otherwise is just being naive.

Ok once again, I will repeat myself.

This DOES NOT BAN players. All it does is prevent them from selecting tank or healer as a role if they have received MULTIPLE reports from DIFFERENT players in MULTIPLE random groups, so there is no way that one person could abuse the system. They can still use the group finder and are not banned from using it.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this.

SydneyGrey · December 2017

I hate fake tanks and healers who queue as those roles just to cut in line, BUT I absolutely disagree with this.

What will end up happening is that it will get some newbies reported, even though they worked hard on making the best tank/healer they could. When you're new, you don't have BIS sets. You don't have complete monster sets. Some people are jerks who would LOVE to be able to report on someone just for not meeting their expectations, and there is a lot of potential for this to be abused to harass and bully people. Oh heck no.

Kel · December 2017

MaleAmazon wrote: »

My suggestion is this:

1. If suspected fake tank/healer, stop playing and call them out.

2. If they dont respond or dont respond in a decent manner, vote to kick and put them on ignore.

3. If kick fails, leave immediately.

Really, you´ll save yourself the trouble and be happier. Trust me. Dealing with toxic or otherwise disruptive players is a no-win, it´s the game company´s responsibility to deal with them, and in the current atmosphere most companies dont seem to care (if this was anything other than a computer game they would have been kicked out). It´s a no-win, best you can do is damage control.

Or...and I know this is crazy...you can actually try running the dungeon first. Try it out before you have a knee-jerk reaction, like reporting players or vote kicking. If things are going smooth and there's no issue completing the dungeon, go with it. Collect your reward and get on with your day. It's only a normal, after all.
If it's causing a few wipes, then sure, by all means, quit and take that debuff that won't let you queue again for a few minutes.
But, if things are melting and no one is dying, who honestly cares? It's a random normal. If it bothers you that much, there's already a system in place. It's called running dungeons with guilds/friends.

redspecter23 · December 2017

Myyth wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Too easy to abuse. Letting players decide the reasons for reporting then having an automatic system in place to lock out the players that are reported will almost certainly lead to exploiting the system.

The easy solution is to not pug out with expectations. Yes, if you queue for tank you should probably actually tank things. Putting players in charge of policing this is not a good idea at all.

How can it be abused? you need reports from multiple RANDOM people in multiple RANDOM groups using group finder.
The worse that happens is a player cant queue as a tank for a period of time, its not a ban. They can still play the game and use group finder.

We already have a vote to kick feature which is self policing that has much more potential for abuse.
Vote to kick also isn't a good solution because nothing is stopping the player from just queueing again non stop as a fake tank.

This is not about reporting players performance, just if they queued as a tank and they are dps.

Whenever you give players the power to ban others, even if it's just from certain features of the game, it will be abused. You assume everyone will use this in the way the OP intends. Some people will report because the tank lagged out, is too slow, doesn't have the "right" sets equipped or just because they feel like being dinks. In a perfect world, this might work, but there is no way it would be fair if implemented the way the OP describes. Thinking otherwise is just being naive.

Ok once again, I will repeat myself.

This DOES NOT BAN players. All it does is prevent them from selecting tank or healer as a role if they have received MULTIPLE reports from DIFFERENT players in MULTIPLE random groups, so there is no way that one person could abuse the system. They can still use the group finder and are not banned from using it.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this.

Once again, I'll repeat myself. What makes you think that players won't use this against legit tanks? What if I'm tanking on my sap tank, but some player thinks that it's not a real tank and reports me (yes I've seen players refuse sap tanks in normal dungeons). If this happens a few times, then you could be penalized through no fault of your own, but instead because of ignorant players abusing the system. You are still of the belief that this feature would only be used against players that you believe are not tanks. The definition of a tank varies wildly and you can't seem to put yourself in the mindset of another player who might abuse this system. A legit, real, actual tank could get banned for a week from queuing for his actual role if your system is implemented. Read it again if you missed it. Legit tanks could be barred from their role if this goes live.

Kel · December 2017

redspecter23 wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Myyth wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Too easy to abuse. Letting players decide the reasons for reporting then having an automatic system in place to lock out the players that are reported will almost certainly lead to exploiting the system.

The easy solution is to not pug out with expectations. Yes, if you queue for tank you should probably actually tank things. Putting players in charge of policing this is not a good idea at all.

How can it be abused? you need reports from multiple RANDOM people in multiple RANDOM groups using group finder.
The worse that happens is a player cant queue as a tank for a period of time, its not a ban. They can still play the game and use group finder.

We already have a vote to kick feature which is self policing that has much more potential for abuse.
Vote to kick also isn't a good solution because nothing is stopping the player from just queueing again non stop as a fake tank.

This is not about reporting players performance, just if they queued as a tank and they are dps.

Whenever you give players the power to ban others, even if it's just from certain features of the game, it will be abused. You assume everyone will use this in the way the OP intends. Some people will report because the tank lagged out, is too slow, doesn't have the "right" sets equipped or just because they feel like being dinks. In a perfect world, this might work, but there is no way it would be fair if implemented the way the OP describes. Thinking otherwise is just being naive.

Ok once again, I will repeat myself.

This DOES NOT BAN players. All it does is prevent them from selecting tank or healer as a role if they have received MULTIPLE reports from DIFFERENT players in MULTIPLE random groups, so there is no way that one person could abuse the system. They can still use the group finder and are not banned from using it.

I don't know why I have to keep repeating this.

Once again, I'll repeat myself. What makes you think that players won't use this against legit tanks? What if I'm tanking on my sap tank, but some player thinks that it's not a real tank and reports me (yes I've seen players refuse sap tanks in normal dungeons). If this happens a few times, then you could be penalized through no fault of your own, but instead because of ignorant players abusing the system. You are still of the belief that this feature would only be used against players that you believe are not tanks. The definition of a tank varies wildly and you can't seem to put yourself in the mindset of another player who might abuse this system. A legit, real, actual tank could get banned for a week from queuing for his actual role if your system is implemented. Read it again if you missed it. Legit tanks could be barred from their role if this goes live.

OP is taking issue with the word "ban". He's/she's saying it's not a ban...just that your tank build that other players disagree with and report you for means you can't queue as a tank. Which is like a ban. A ban on the tank role.
Nevermind it's an idea that leads to abuse, as you point out..the issue is that it's not a ban.
(This is sarcasm, if you can't tell, Myyth...)

Sixty5 · December 2017

I'd like to say that this event has been fantastic so far. The number of runs I've gotten into with 4 dps is the highest I've seen it.

With no healers or tanks to slow fights down, bosses just melt.

Killing Kena in a single phase has got to be one of the highlights of my time playing this game.

More fake tanks and healers pls.

Raideen · December 2017

I had a low level tank today, I think he was around lvl 13. Did not know what he was doing, was new to the game (no CP), but he had tanking abilities, a sword and board. In our opinion he was clearly trying.

I think in some cases people think that "fake" tanks are simply "new" tanks who are trying to do what you wont do.

Bhaal5 · December 2017

Zos have added something for this "vote to kick" use it if you disagree, and see if the others feel the same

code65536 · December 2017

[snip] Why do people get so worked up about "fake tanks" when the real issue are the "fake DPS" that you see? If your DPS is high enough, you can blow through virtually every normal dungeon without a tank, without a healer. It's when the DPS are in 30K health heavy armor light-attacking with their bow that they start to notice problems.

Of course, I would never advocate such a draconian "solution" to the "fake DPS" problem, nor would I ever entertain this for this so-called problem of yours.

[edited for baiting]

MaleAmazon · December 2017

Or...and I know this is crazy...you can actually try running the dungeon first.

I´ve done that. Depending on the dungeon I might try it, or not.

There are deeper issues though. When these people are tolerated, they keep at it, bringing down the experience for more people. "Play with guildies" is a pretty bad defense. "Yeah sure, lets silently accept that the DF is horrible, buggy and full of disruptive players since you can do something else".

I run as tank or healer, so Ill just do something else for a few mins and jump back in. Dont waste my time, waste your own if you want to. My time is valuable. That might sound like narcissistic BS, but it´s true.

There is nothing strange about this, it is just some weird computer game thing which doesn´t fly in other areas of life. I sing in a choir and if you try out for a role you can´t do, like a soprano trying out as a bass, you don´t get to sing. If you act like an ass in a nightclub they kick you out. If you try to cheat at university they´ll kick you out and worse.

Since people seem fine with this (being incredibly egotistic when playing ESO), I feel fine with reporting (if easy), putting people on ignore, and avoiding them as much as I can. A few quick hotkey presses and I have wasted 2 minutes of my life and not 20.

It should be noted that my experience is influenced by running probably 100+ PUGs before completing veteran Falkreath

. Since then I don´t go on vet PUGs if I can help it.

Taleof2Cities · December 2017

code65536 wrote: »

[snip] Why do people get so worked up about "fake tanks" when the real issue are the "fake DPS" that you see? If your DPS is high enough, you can blow through virtually every normal dungeon without a tank, without a healer. It's when the DPS are in 30K health heavy armor light-attacking with their bow that they start to notice problems.

Of course, I would never advocate such a draconian "solution" to the "fake DPS" problem, nor would I ever entertain this for this so-called problem of yours.

@code65536 is right.

These are normal dungeons, folks ... and the traditional roles don't matter. Players just want the complete and to move on to the next character.

[edited to remove quote]

THWIP71 · December 2017

How about posting your thoughts in one of the other related threads, rather than adding to the redundant clutter?

Kel · December 2017

There are deeper issues though. When these people are tolerated, they keep at it, bringing down the experience for more people. "Play with guildies" is a pretty bad defense. "Yeah sure, lets silently accept that the DF is horrible, buggy and full of disruptive players since you can do something else".

This is actually the perfect defense for playing with guildies, since every single MMO with a queue system has these shortcomings. It's not just found in ESO.
I disagree that this particular issue is caused by "disruptive players" though. I've had no issues with running dungeons with a DD as tank in this event. They've been the fastest, easiest way to clear dungeons so far. And as someone who admits that thier time is at a premium, I'd think that would be right in your wheelhouse.
As I stated, it's not a problem if things are smooth. And if it's not, then, and only then, I can see it being a problem. But if it's not, why make it one?
And while what you say is reasonable and fair, your original post didn't come off as such. It came off as "STOP, VOTE KICK, QUIT".
And let's not lose sight...most players are not running vet. I agree, roles should absolutely be followed in vet. But....normals? That's much ado about nothing if a DD wants to tank. The only disruptive behavior I've seen is players taking issue with fake tanks who are actually making normal dungeon runs go extremely fast.

swirve · December 2017

UnversedNumber3 wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Can i pls report and ban dps players, who aren't performing their role, too?

Thats the problem , who gets to decide if they arent preforming their role? A band new player is going to pull less than 6k dps while doing his best. Should they be reported because they dont meet what ever standard the group has set. Not everyone is nice or lenient to a new player.

The same can go for all roles.

I had 2 DPS both pulling between 1 and 2k DPS the other day lol... i suggested they google builds to help them improve... the answer from one was I play for fun so you can carry me.

I was the healer... lol

xSkullfox · December 2017

Myyth wrote: »

This is what I think is the solution to the fake tank problem.

Have a "report player for not performing role" feature. You right click on player in the group listing and report them for skipping the queue as a dps. Quick and simple.

After a player receives a certain amount of reports (3 or 5?) from different players in different groups the ability to queue as tank and healer is locked for a set amount of time. (1 week?) This would force that player to only queue as DPS with that character until that time expires. Since it requires reports from different players in multiple different groups it should prevent abuse.

What do you guys think?
I think it would be awesome way bring some fairness back and punish players who think they are entitled to skip the queue.

And what if i wanna report a fake dps role ? I mean someone who do 3k dps is no damage dealer.

SydneyGrey · December 2017

code65536 wrote: »

[snip] Why do people get so worked up about "fake tanks" when the real issue are the "fake DPS" that you see? If your DPS is high enough, you can blow through virtually every normal dungeon without a tank, without a healer. It's when the DPS are in 30K health heavy armor light-attacking with their bow that they start to notice problems.
Of course, I would never advocate such a draconian "solution" to the "fake DPS" problem, nor would I ever entertain this for this so-called problem of yours.

There's no such thing as "fake" DPS. There is bad DPS, but not "fake" DPS. When you queue for a dungeon there are only three roles you can choose from when you enter, and if you're not a tank or healer, you have to check off the DPS box by default. Basically, you don't want anyone doing DPS unless they're extremely competent. That would be ideal, sure, but you can't say that newer or less competent people aren't allowed to do dungeons. If you don't want incompetent people PUGing with you, then don't do PUGs. Do dungeon runs with a high-level guild group instead.

[edited to remove quote]

Icy_Waffles · December 2017

It goes both ways. If i want to run my stam pvp nightblade as a tank in normal dungeons by slotting inner fire for a taunt and the 2h brawler skill that gives me a sheild and keeps me alive, then i will.

Besides this would be abused. We have a vote to kick function for a reason.

NyassaV · December 2017

Fake tanks aren't a problem really... Unless it's CoAII or a DLC dungeon in VET (not normal) you shouldn't need a tank