Damage Reduction made pvp unplayable

themaddaedra · November 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.

My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.

I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.

I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.

Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that you mean organized raids that built for survival - which I usually see having a bunch of healers (or earthgore sets, right now) with tactics that center around running and healing while they regen their ultimates, until they rush out ultis blazing, and then return to the running and healing tactics if they didn't wipe their foes - because they have very little damage outside of their ultimates.

Which from the perspective of an organized raider whose raid isn't built around those tactics/builds, yeah, those guys are annoying. Effective, I can't deny that. But annoying. Which really means they are using good tactics and their organization effectively to make themselves a tough nut to crack and I can't really complain too much about that. (Though as an aside, I'm sure Earthgore will be up for some nerfing after Horns of the Reach is less of a new DLC.) For objective based PVP, which is what most organized raids do, this set-up works pretty well.

Tactics for dealing with these guys:
Paulsimonps already listed a great one in his comment

This one takes time, yes, and another semi-organized to organized raid.
In the run & heal phase, spread them out and find the healers. Focus fire the healers and you wear down the raid.
In the ulti drop phase, don't be where they dropped their ultimates. Just you don't want to stand in the middle of the incoming destro ulti train.
Rinse repeat until your superior damage wears them down.

Now, if your raid has negates, this gets a lot easier. Negates give you a window where you don't have as much healing, because the magicka healers have to get out. Negate these raids, and they melt a lot quick and you'll take out more healers.

So I understand that groups like this make PVP less enjoyable simply because they take a lot of effort to kill. But I don't think there's a way to disincentivize running half the group as healers (or whatever method they use) in order to have a very survivable group. Adding more means of incoming damage only makes them invest more heavily into tankiness and healing.

However consider the impact of removing damage reduction. Now, those coordinated heals, purges, earthgore procs are all still going to be present, though the group will take more damage. However, the small amount of damage that group can do have now doubled and their opponents have less coordinated defenses. Removing damage reduction makes it easier for that group to win, not harder.

Ultimately, you'll have to decide what you like doing and if dealing with these groups isn't your thing, that's fine. But there's nothing actually wrong with that playstyle, even though I personally think it sounds terribly boring. (I don't PVP with an organized raid to run after my leader and heal in between bombing people with ultimates). But it is making effective use of the tools ZOS gave them to play the map and objective based PVP, so there's nothing wrong with it. Nor do I think that ZOS needs to fundamentally change the way Cyrodiil works in order to address these groups. I suspect ZOS will first try to nerf the items they use, like the Earthgore Set.

Mostly agreed. Tho i was about damage increase instead of sustain reduce because i don't want to be the one to cry for nerfs here. Seems everyone thinks that nerfing stuff is affecting badly -including myself-. Mostly for pve. Solution for that would be seperating updates for pvp and pve which everyone would love to see.

themaddaedra · November 2017

Pastas wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Loading screens, lags, disconnections aside, damage reduction is the worst thing that makes pvp unplayable. Because it made organized trains totally unkillable. And organized trains are the first cause to incredible pings in Cyrodiil.

The thing is, they don't truly care how much damage they do. Either 1k or 5k, all they will do is running around killing people just by surviving. This is pure cancer and without curing it you can't cure pvp at all.

I know it's sometimes frustrating for others to die easily, but it will also mean that you can kill easily too. Everybody complain about zergs but it's complete nonsense that you also complain about damage you get and cry for reduction all the time.

Whatever set you bring, whatever events, pvp gives zero fun when everybody is being slaughtered by meat grinders.

I don't know how everyone else think about this, but i used to enjoy pvp despite the lags and bugs but now i only go there when i need AP. ***, boring, undying snb users all over the map.

Have you played before the 50% damage reduction?. I did, and I'm not missing that 25K+ snipe (where did you go Mr Torture?).

I agree with you that HA SnB builds are overperforming a bit now, but removing the damage reduction is not the solution in my opinion.

I did. And truly i was one of those one shot snipers. Many times i sniped zerg leaders and one shotted them. Tho they were not tanky back then. Sustain based builds could stand more but they could also die not taking too long. Then cry for the nerfs came out and sadly instead of balance, sustain just became op.

Alexandrious · November 2017

This is all sounding like a l2p issue.....

*Reads some more*

Yea its a l2p issue.

All The Kek

themaddaedra · November 2017

Alexandrious wrote: »

This is all sounding like a l2p issue.....

*Reads some more*

Yea its a l2p issue.

All The Kek

Just gave you an awesome, go bother someone else now pls ^^

generalmyrick · November 2017

Calsifer wrote: »

Um. . . adapt or die?

what's that look like?

use the sword and board as well and blend in with the sheep?

or

go completely the other direction with DPS?

idk · November 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

I'm not trolling. We might be talking about different definitions of zergs, as you say.

To me, large groups in Cyrodiil fall into a couple of categories:
Organized raid: these groups probably train together, have certain builds they run, and move and fight together as a coordinated unit following the calls of their leader. Depending on the raid, they may have a good mix of skills or overly rely on certain skills, like CCs or earthgore procs to carry them through. The mix of players often varies, you'll see some raids with tons of healers and some with tons of negates/destro ultis. Raids use different tactics, but again, the key is the organization and tactics.

PUG raid: these are a loosely organized bunch of players who grouped up in order to be more effective in large numbers. These PUGs might go for AP farming or keep captures, but they are typically spread out and usually not following the calls of their leader in anything more than a "point them in the right direction" sort of way. This is a pretty good way for new players to learn the ropes in Cyrodiil.

Loose PUGs: often referred to as "potatoes", these are the loose players that aren't attached to a group but are doing their own thing. Some might be small groups, others might be good solo players, but its really hard to distinguish in a large group. These players are very much doing their own thing, chasing the fights across the map. This ranges from "doesn't have a clue" to "knows exactly what they are doing".

Now a zerg forms when, due to certain objectives being more important than others and players being able to identify those important objectives, many players converge on the same objective. A zerg other includes both organized raid(s) and PUGs. Keep in mind that the PUGs and the organized raid are rarely acting quite in tandem, as the raid is following their leader, and the PUGs are (by and large) doing their own thing or hanging on the coattails of the organized raid. A PUG raid can serve this function for a bunch of loose PUGs, but its rarely as effective.

So there's a lot of confusion as to what exactly is the problem here.
Is it organized raids owning everyone because they have superior organization and tactics?
Is it organized raids making use of stuff like purges and dedicated healers to outmatch any sort of incoming damage short of another raid bringing the negates/eye of the storms?
Is it PUG raids who band together in numbers despite individual members not being that great?
Is it potatoes in large groups mowing down people in their path?
Is it zergs, which happen when important objectives bring lots of players together in the same location?

Each of those situations has a counter(s). I'm familiar with a lot of the tactics that are used to counter each of those situations, but its really hard to give a comprehensive answer unless I know what exactly we're talking about. Furthermore, my answers are going to keep in mind that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, while supporting everything from solo players, small groups, zergs, and faction stacks. So many of my answers are going to be "this is a good counter for this situation" but that may not solve your "my nightblade can't kill groups anymore" problem.

Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.

My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.

I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.

I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.

Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.

Get a friend that is a sorc, have them use negate and Restraining Prison on them as you run in with Eye of the storm, Proxy Det and Sap essance with Vicious Death slotted. Will still kill a lot of the people in such groups. Small organized group can still beat those types of groups. But I actually think one single person should not be able to kill a 24man group on their own. Help should be needed. And what I mentioned is just one of several ways to do that.

Exactly on each point made. Really points out the premise this thread was created on is not an issue at all. We have said more than once there are tactics for handling Zergs already. No reason to call for a nerf that is not needed.

This was worthy of an insightful.

themaddaedra · November 2017

idk wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

I'm not trolling. We might be talking about different definitions of zergs, as you say.

To me, large groups in Cyrodiil fall into a couple of categories:
Organized raid: these groups probably train together, have certain builds they run, and move and fight together as a coordinated unit following the calls of their leader. Depending on the raid, they may have a good mix of skills or overly rely on certain skills, like CCs or earthgore procs to carry them through. The mix of players often varies, you'll see some raids with tons of healers and some with tons of negates/destro ultis. Raids use different tactics, but again, the key is the organization and tactics.

PUG raid: these are a loosely organized bunch of players who grouped up in order to be more effective in large numbers. These PUGs might go for AP farming or keep captures, but they are typically spread out and usually not following the calls of their leader in anything more than a "point them in the right direction" sort of way. This is a pretty good way for new players to learn the ropes in Cyrodiil.

Loose PUGs: often referred to as "potatoes", these are the loose players that aren't attached to a group but are doing their own thing. Some might be small groups, others might be good solo players, but its really hard to distinguish in a large group. These players are very much doing their own thing, chasing the fights across the map. This ranges from "doesn't have a clue" to "knows exactly what they are doing".

Now a zerg forms when, due to certain objectives being more important than others and players being able to identify those important objectives, many players converge on the same objective. A zerg other includes both organized raid(s) and PUGs. Keep in mind that the PUGs and the organized raid are rarely acting quite in tandem, as the raid is following their leader, and the PUGs are (by and large) doing their own thing or hanging on the coattails of the organized raid. A PUG raid can serve this function for a bunch of loose PUGs, but its rarely as effective.

So there's a lot of confusion as to what exactly is the problem here.
Is it organized raids owning everyone because they have superior organization and tactics?
Is it organized raids making use of stuff like purges and dedicated healers to outmatch any sort of incoming damage short of another raid bringing the negates/eye of the storms?
Is it PUG raids who band together in numbers despite individual members not being that great?
Is it potatoes in large groups mowing down people in their path?
Is it zergs, which happen when important objectives bring lots of players together in the same location?

Each of those situations has a counter(s). I'm familiar with a lot of the tactics that are used to counter each of those situations, but its really hard to give a comprehensive answer unless I know what exactly we're talking about. Furthermore, my answers are going to keep in mind that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, while supporting everything from solo players, small groups, zergs, and faction stacks. So many of my answers are going to be "this is a good counter for this situation" but that may not solve your "my nightblade can't kill groups anymore" problem.

Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.

My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.

I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.

I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.

Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.

Get a friend that is a sorc, have them use negate and Restraining Prison on them as you run in with Eye of the storm, Proxy Det and Sap essance with Vicious Death slotted. Will still kill a lot of the people in such groups. Small organized group can still beat those types of groups. But I actually think one single person should not be able to kill a 24man group on their own. Help should be needed. And what I mentioned is just one of several ways to do that.

Exactly on each point made. Really points out the premise this thread was created on is not an issue at all. We have said more than once there are tactics for handling Zergs already. No reason to call for a nerf that is not needed.

This was worthy of an insightful.

You have said more than once and none made sense, i'd stop saying the same thing if i were you. Because the things u keep suggesting are neither very dark secrets nor they actually work.

God, zergs are more boring on forums than they are in the game.

Madamova · November 2017

Lyserus wrote: »

If you don't like zerg ball you should probably leave Vivec. To me if the players are more evenly spread in 30champ, 7champ, 30nonchamp, both lag and zerg issue will be smaller (I don't really understand why ppl all complain about these while insist staying in vivec)

Same is happening in Sotha SIl btw.

idk · November 2017

themaddaedra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

I'm not trolling. We might be talking about different definitions of zergs, as you say.

To me, large groups in Cyrodiil fall into a couple of categories:
Organized raid: these groups probably train together, have certain builds they run, and move and fight together as a coordinated unit following the calls of their leader. Depending on the raid, they may have a good mix of skills or overly rely on certain skills, like CCs or earthgore procs to carry them through. The mix of players often varies, you'll see some raids with tons of healers and some with tons of negates/destro ultis. Raids use different tactics, but again, the key is the organization and tactics.

PUG raid: these are a loosely organized bunch of players who grouped up in order to be more effective in large numbers. These PUGs might go for AP farming or keep captures, but they are typically spread out and usually not following the calls of their leader in anything more than a "point them in the right direction" sort of way. This is a pretty good way for new players to learn the ropes in Cyrodiil.

Loose PUGs: often referred to as "potatoes", these are the loose players that aren't attached to a group but are doing their own thing. Some might be small groups, others might be good solo players, but its really hard to distinguish in a large group. These players are very much doing their own thing, chasing the fights across the map. This ranges from "doesn't have a clue" to "knows exactly what they are doing".

Now a zerg forms when, due to certain objectives being more important than others and players being able to identify those important objectives, many players converge on the same objective. A zerg other includes both organized raid(s) and PUGs. Keep in mind that the PUGs and the organized raid are rarely acting quite in tandem, as the raid is following their leader, and the PUGs are (by and large) doing their own thing or hanging on the coattails of the organized raid. A PUG raid can serve this function for a bunch of loose PUGs, but its rarely as effective.

So there's a lot of confusion as to what exactly is the problem here.
Is it organized raids owning everyone because they have superior organization and tactics?
Is it organized raids making use of stuff like purges and dedicated healers to outmatch any sort of incoming damage short of another raid bringing the negates/eye of the storms?
Is it PUG raids who band together in numbers despite individual members not being that great?
Is it potatoes in large groups mowing down people in their path?
Is it zergs, which happen when important objectives bring lots of players together in the same location?

Each of those situations has a counter(s). I'm familiar with a lot of the tactics that are used to counter each of those situations, but its really hard to give a comprehensive answer unless I know what exactly we're talking about. Furthermore, my answers are going to keep in mind that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, while supporting everything from solo players, small groups, zergs, and faction stacks. So many of my answers are going to be "this is a good counter for this situation" but that may not solve your "my nightblade can't kill groups anymore" problem.

Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.

My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.

I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.

I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.

Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.

Get a friend that is a sorc, have them use negate and Restraining Prison on them as you run in with Eye of the storm, Proxy Det and Sap essance with Vicious Death slotted. Will still kill a lot of the people in such groups. Small organized group can still beat those types of groups. But I actually think one single person should not be able to kill a 24man group on their own. Help should be needed. And what I mentioned is just one of several ways to do that.

Exactly on each point made. Really points out the premise this thread was created on is not an issue at all. We have said more than once there are tactics for handling Zergs already. No reason to call for a nerf that is not needed.

This was worthy of an insightful.

You have said more than once and none made sense, i'd stop saying the same thing if i were you. Because the things u keep suggesting are neither very dark secrets nor they actually work.

God, zergs are more boring on forums than they are in the game.

Glad you finally understand the premise of this thread is not an issue in the game since there are effective tactics that work against zergs.

paulsimonps · November 2017

themaddaedra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

I'm not trolling. We might be talking about different definitions of zergs, as you say.

To me, large groups in Cyrodiil fall into a couple of categories:
Organized raid: these groups probably train together, have certain builds they run, and move and fight together as a coordinated unit following the calls of their leader. Depending on the raid, they may have a good mix of skills or overly rely on certain skills, like CCs or earthgore procs to carry them through. The mix of players often varies, you'll see some raids with tons of healers and some with tons of negates/destro ultis. Raids use different tactics, but again, the key is the organization and tactics.

PUG raid: these are a loosely organized bunch of players who grouped up in order to be more effective in large numbers. These PUGs might go for AP farming or keep captures, but they are typically spread out and usually not following the calls of their leader in anything more than a "point them in the right direction" sort of way. This is a pretty good way for new players to learn the ropes in Cyrodiil.

Loose PUGs: often referred to as "potatoes", these are the loose players that aren't attached to a group but are doing their own thing. Some might be small groups, others might be good solo players, but its really hard to distinguish in a large group. These players are very much doing their own thing, chasing the fights across the map. This ranges from "doesn't have a clue" to "knows exactly what they are doing".

Now a zerg forms when, due to certain objectives being more important than others and players being able to identify those important objectives, many players converge on the same objective. A zerg other includes both organized raid(s) and PUGs. Keep in mind that the PUGs and the organized raid are rarely acting quite in tandem, as the raid is following their leader, and the PUGs are (by and large) doing their own thing or hanging on the coattails of the organized raid. A PUG raid can serve this function for a bunch of loose PUGs, but its rarely as effective.

So there's a lot of confusion as to what exactly is the problem here.
Is it organized raids owning everyone because they have superior organization and tactics?
Is it organized raids making use of stuff like purges and dedicated healers to outmatch any sort of incoming damage short of another raid bringing the negates/eye of the storms?
Is it PUG raids who band together in numbers despite individual members not being that great?
Is it potatoes in large groups mowing down people in their path?
Is it zergs, which happen when important objectives bring lots of players together in the same location?

Each of those situations has a counter(s). I'm familiar with a lot of the tactics that are used to counter each of those situations, but its really hard to give a comprehensive answer unless I know what exactly we're talking about. Furthermore, my answers are going to keep in mind that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, while supporting everything from solo players, small groups, zergs, and faction stacks. So many of my answers are going to be "this is a good counter for this situation" but that may not solve your "my nightblade can't kill groups anymore" problem.

Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.

My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.

I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.

I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.

Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.

Get a friend that is a sorc, have them use negate and Restraining Prison on them as you run in with Eye of the storm, Proxy Det and Sap essance with Vicious Death slotted. Will still kill a lot of the people in such groups. Small organized group can still beat those types of groups. But I actually think one single person should not be able to kill a 24man group on their own. Help should be needed. And what I mentioned is just one of several ways to do that.

Exactly on each point made. Really points out the premise this thread was created on is not an issue at all. We have said more than once there are tactics for handling Zergs already. No reason to call for a nerf that is not needed.

This was worthy of an insightful.

You have said more than once and none made sense, i'd stop saying the same thing if i were you. Because the things u keep suggesting are neither very dark secrets nor they actually work.

God, zergs are more boring on forums than they are in the game.

Did you try what I suggested? Or are you just looking to be able to one man a 12+ man strong organized group on your own. Cause that would be balanced....

Asardes · November 2017

Of course uncoordinated players can't make a dent in that destro ultimate zerg. Best way to bust zergs is to have a coordinated group with negates, CCs and VD. I've seen plenty of 3-4 man groups that were working together farm dozens of players. That's purely a L2P issue, not a balance problem. A solo player or players throwing skills at random aren't supposed to have it easy against multiple other players.

Raudgrani · November 2017

Isn't war, and multiplayer large scale PVP all about "zergs" and "trains"? I can't grasp why people keep complaining about "zergs"? Shouldn't war in Cyrodiil be at least reminiscent of actual medieval style combat? What's the whole deal with running around in like 3-6 man groups? As if keeps are supposed to be captured by a handful of people. Ffs., it's the big scale chaos that makes this fun, if you enjoy small group play - go Battlegrounds, or for that matter get a nightblade and form one of those groups ganking everyone respawning and heading back to a siege.

I can't see what this whole zerg/zergling hysteria is all about. That's war you know, and Cyrodiil is war, not duelling or small scale hooligan brawls. If it isn't your cup of tea, I guess Cyrodiil isn't your cup of tea? Because it's pretty obvious that this is the way it's meant to be. Adapt or do something else.

And of course, the current state of the servers is sad. I switched from a StamDK to a healer templar this campaign, and still haven't hardly played at all - only thing I do is basically heal and ride back and forth across the map, to revive people who doesn't want to reboot their console. Sad, yes - but this should hopefully pass too.

sly007 · November 2017

ostrapz wrote: »

@themaddaedra i dont even post here anymore but the amount of nonsense in this thread is baffling, i understand yout point. Back before heavy was a thing you wore light or medium and thus noone could be extremely tanky without proper buff rotation ans/or Los. If some1 hit you with their full combo you could be killed even without ultimate. Now you drop your full combo with ultinate into someone and they can survive sometimes without making any defensive maneuvers. People run around on builds that are literally unkillable 1on1 if they go full defense but have plenty of dmg to kill some1 with help. The problem/difference from some previous patches is that offense has taken a backseat to defense. If you played defensive for too long before you would die quickly to pressure, now the player who is offensive usually is punished in the end because defensive play is smarter, more cost efficient, and simply easier. Idk if damage directly needs to be brought up but the defensive to offensive scales need to be tipped. My light armor plar can tank groups while my high damage stamblade build cant kill other "dps" players in some cases becuase of healing/blocking/overall damage/resource cost of defense v offense

You are wrong. Offense is cheaper than defence in eso. Offensive only becomes more costly when that offense is weak and does little damage.

It is more cost effective use spam dizzy swing than to roll dodge a dizzy swing. Shields cost 4k magicka while aoe abilities cost around 3.5k. Single target spammable are around 2.5k cost. Healing the damage would cost more resource unless the damage was miniscule.

Kay1 · November 2017

There's been a damage reduction?

What?

VaranisArano · November 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

There's been a damage reduction?

What?

There's been a 50% Damage Reduction and a 50% less heals, and an additional 5000 health pretty much since ZOS introduced Battle Spirit to Cyrodiil. They've changed the exact percentages a couple of times, but this has been the current values for quite some time. Everyone in Cyrodiil benefits from it.

IEatCivics · November 2017

themaddaedra wrote: »

There is no counter to zergs. Bombers are perfect for this job but zerg survival is always overdoing. Because aoe damage, detonation, destro ulti they all got nerfed.

Will zergs always be? Yes. But there should be encounter to them as well.

I hear your frustration in general. To fight a organized zerg you need a organized zerg. And when we say "Organized" we mean a specific composition and specific builds in the group.

In that organization you have zerg busting builds. The biggest problem with zerg busting builds is that no one wants to build and run them. Everyone wants to be dps which just gets you wiped constantly, even if you have a few healers and tanks.

I've gone through Warden over and over again making builds to devestate zergs and it's been successful since week 1 of Warden.

A Zerg Busting Warden gives the allied group,

1. Major Resolve 24 seconds
2. Major Ward 24 seconds
3. Heals that are useable inside enemy Negates (w/ Major Mending)
4. MOBILE 10-Meter Radius Aoe Major Protection 8 Seconds (Permafrost)
5. Major Heal Synergy
6. Minor Toughness (+10% Total Health)
These are all skills that would fit on your bar as a proven & successful build.

A Zerg Busting Warden Debuffs enemy group with.
1. Major Aoe Defile lasting up to a total of 10 seconds and a minimum of 4 to an unlimited number of enemy players.
2. Minor Maim (Through many skills buffed by passives)
3. MOBILE 10-Meter Radius Aoe Snare, Stun (Permafrost)
4. Immobilization (with change of applying Minor Maim)

These are just the buffs/debuffs that the Warden has in its class skills. Other skills that I run ONTOP of all of these for my group are.

1. On Call Rapid Maneuver to get my whole group out of snares and to mobilize them for quick attacks or retreats.
2. Guard. Usually guarding a bomber to give the +Crit damage while Permafrosting to snare/stun/major defile/minor maim/give bomber major protection, to devastate zergs.
3. Turn Undead. Give your allies Minor Protection (8% Damage Reduction) 10% Stamina Recovery and Fearing Every Damn Vampire in Cyrodiil.

All of these fit on one Support Zerg Busting Stamina Warden and Synergyzing your group around builds like these, and also taking the time to learn the build to make its affect maximum per fight (experience), is what will grant you a solution to the problem that is happening in Cyrodiil.

It takes a lot of work to fight these 3984590403948560 large zergs and all the problems they give with their ridiculous survivability and damage. You can destroy that survivability and damage with just 2 Support Wardens, for example, in your group. If everyone is Major Defiled because they're running through the Aoe Major Defile that's sitting where they have to run, Healing is cut another 46% ON TOP of Battle Spirit. Add to that solid negate tanks, healers, bombers, all coordinated, in communication, in sync. That's where a small force can decimate large forces.

I got lucky because I was picked up by a good group of people who run organized groups where we make sure we have the builds we need to make sure we can 20 v 40 successfully.

If you're interested in the build above I'll link it below & I"ll link a video of the build in action. You can also check out the many videos I have of this Immortal Warden Zerg Buster in its many forms to see the one that works for your playstyle and group so you can have better success. I hope this is helpful in that it shows there are ways to fight the zergs. It's not perfect, but it's a start and progress towards a solution that's in game already which won't leave us feeling helpless.

Thanks

Build

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ke_NmSQMGY

Gameplay:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woo-v21m-Po

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2KGFhQMsrE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYdZBB90rhk

Trashs1 · November 2017

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Everything went to hell the day CP was introduced into this game. I argued with many players on these very forums about it.

This was a terrible idea and it has not only cause balance nightmares for the devs in PVE content, but it will always make PVP complete TRASH! Throw in this damage reduction you only reinforce players drive to form zergballs.

CP was/is/prolly will be the WORST idea to ever be implemented into a decent MMO.

thats why my grp plays in sotha sil

Ragnarock41 · November 2017

Try sotha sil, Its fun.

Qbiken · November 2017

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Try sotha sil, Its fun.

EP zergfest 24/7 ruining the campaign.....rather go to the rigged Shor-campaign.....

Ragnarock41 · November 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Try sotha sil, Its fun.

EP zergfest 24/7 ruining the campaign.....rather go to the rigged Shor-campaign.....

Im always there, fighting the EP outbreak, and I will not fall untill my stamina bar is empty.

(WTB sustain,zos pls)

VaranisArano · November 2017

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Try sotha sil, Its fun.

EP zergfest 24/7 ruining the campaign.....rather go to the rigged Shor-campaign.....

Im always there, fighting the EP outbreak, and I will not fall untill my stamina bar is empty.

(WTB sustain,zos pls)

If you wanted better sustain, you'd play in a CP campaign. But then everyone else has better sustain plus all the other mitigation and extra damage.

olsborg · December 2017

themaddaedra wrote: »

Loading screens, lags, disconnections aside, damage reduction is the worst thing that makes pvp unplayable. Because it made organized trains totally unkillable. And organized trains are the first cause to incredible pings in Cyrodiil.

The thing is, they don't truly care how much damage they do. Either 1k or 5k, all they will do is running around killing people just by surviving. This is pure cancer and without curing it you can't cure pvp at all.

I know it's sometimes frustrating for others to die easily, but it will also mean that you can kill easily too. Everybody complain about zergs but it's complete nonsense that you also complain about damage you get and cry for reduction all the time.

Whatever set you bring, whatever events, pvp gives zero fun when everybody is being slaughtered by meat grinders.

I don't know how everyone else think about this, but i used to enjoy pvp despite the lags and bugs but now i only go there when i need AP. ***, boring, undying snb users all over the map.

Cant do anything but agree here. Cyro is tank-meta now. Boring

Minno · December 2017

How much mitigation does everyone think is being given by CP?

Waffennacht · December 2017

Minno wrote: »

How much mitigation does everyone think is being given by CP?

It's not very quantitative, dodge roll cost decrease, block cost decrease both add to mitigation without adding literal mitigation

Then there's the actual Mitigation CPs

VaranisArano · December 2017

Part of the Mitigation from CP is that it means you can diversify your build. You can wear heavy armor and sustain stamina skills for example.

Crusades · December 2017

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Loading screens, lags, disconnections aside, damage reduction is the worst thing that makes pvp unplayable. Because it made organized trains totally unkillable. And organized trains are the first cause to incredible pings in Cyrodiil.

I don't know how everyone else think about this, but i used to enjoy pvp despite the lags and bugs but now i only go there when i need AP. ***, boring, undying snb users all over the map.

SnB ppl arent rly a problem,Imo Elusive Mist is a much bigger problem. 75% dmg reduction is OP as hell.
not even Major Protection gives that much mitigation.

they just pop mag Det on them, EOTS and a Warden takes sleetstorm. Then Elusive mist on damagedealers and then zerg arround = they take like zero dmg, deal decent ammount of dmg but over time they'll kill nearly all ppl in a keep just by running arround.

maybe change elusive mist to give Major Protection, and minor Protection at the same time seems ok.

It's still both Buffs but they cannot use Elusive Mist + major Protection. Also this would kinda fit in to changes back in the day, when they started to "unify" buffs and debuffs.

I disagree about mist, you already get no magic regen and it’s buggy as hell

NO NERF MIST If anything It needs a buff to speed