Damage Reduction made pvp unplayable

idk

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Have no idea how you guys could manage to relate this to be better players or crowded side's winning in a 10:1 fight.

Couldn't be further from the point. The point is THEY WON'T DIE no matter 1v1 or 1v10 or whatever.

PvE damage is being reduced saying it's for million hp bosses yet PvE sustain staying the same in Cyrodiil. Except shields which scale on damage. It has zero things to do with being good or being crowded. Sustain builds are way overperforming.

And of course people have right to complain about zergs. Zerg is not when one side is out numbered but when the other side is a fully survival-based train having %90 damage mitigation while running around.

I even have some friends who are in very famous zerg squads yet they said they do it because they don't know how to play alone. Calling them "better players" is way far from being sensible.

ZOS' response has been to address sustain-based builds by reducing their ability to sustain and do reasonable damage at the same thing. In other words, they are trying to fix the problem by reducing the problem, not adding more damage that will unbalance lots of other aspects of combat. Perhaps they haven't fixed it well enough for your tastes, but the answer is not to throw out the damage reduction that makes counterplay possible for most builds, especially glass cannon types and most solo players.

Partially true. They can simply reduce the nonsense mitigation and it'd make the same affect. Of course nobody says that players should be able to hit 50k Assassin's Will procs in Cyrodiil, but this insane mitigation combined with %50 reduction is so nonsense and so boring tbh.

You really have not made a case of insane mitigation in PvP other than just stating you have the opinion it is the case. A opinion few seem to agree.

The design of a large PvP zone as Cyro is encourages Zergs and they will always be there just as they have been since the game launched.

themaddaedra

idk wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Have no idea how you guys could manage to relate this to be better players or crowded side's winning in a 10:1 fight.

Couldn't be further from the point. The point is THEY WON'T DIE no matter 1v1 or 1v10 or whatever.

PvE damage is being reduced saying it's for million hp bosses yet PvE sustain staying the same in Cyrodiil. Except shields which scale on damage. It has zero things to do with being good or being crowded. Sustain builds are way overperforming.

And of course people have right to complain about zergs. Zerg is not when one side is out numbered but when the other side is a fully survival-based train having %90 damage mitigation while running around.

I even have some friends who are in very famous zerg squads yet they said they do it because they don't know how to play alone. Calling them "better players" is way far from being sensible.

ZOS' response has been to address sustain-based builds by reducing their ability to sustain and do reasonable damage at the same thing. In other words, they are trying to fix the problem by reducing the problem, not adding more damage that will unbalance lots of other aspects of combat. Perhaps they haven't fixed it well enough for your tastes, but the answer is not to throw out the damage reduction that makes counterplay possible for most builds, especially glass cannon types and most solo players.

Partially true. They can simply reduce the nonsense mitigation and it'd make the same affect. Of course nobody says that players should be able to hit 50k Assassin's Will procs in Cyrodiil, but this insane mitigation combined with %50 reduction is so nonsense and so boring tbh.

You really have not made a case of insane mitigation in PvP other than just stating you have the opinion it is the case. A opinion few seem to agree.

The design of a large PvP zone as Cyro is encourages Zergs and they will always be there just as they have been since the game launched.

Other people did. %50 from battle spirit, %75 from mist form, major protection, minor protection, minor maim... Why you would make me name them anyways.

idk

themaddaedra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Have no idea how you guys could manage to relate this to be better players or crowded side's winning in a 10:1 fight.

Couldn't be further from the point. The point is THEY WON'T DIE no matter 1v1 or 1v10 or whatever.

PvE damage is being reduced saying it's for million hp bosses yet PvE sustain staying the same in Cyrodiil. Except shields which scale on damage. It has zero things to do with being good or being crowded. Sustain builds are way overperforming.

And of course people have right to complain about zergs. Zerg is not when one side is out numbered but when the other side is a fully survival-based train having %90 damage mitigation while running around.

I even have some friends who are in very famous zerg squads yet they said they do it because they don't know how to play alone. Calling them "better players" is way far from being sensible.

ZOS' response has been to address sustain-based builds by reducing their ability to sustain and do reasonable damage at the same thing. In other words, they are trying to fix the problem by reducing the problem, not adding more damage that will unbalance lots of other aspects of combat. Perhaps they haven't fixed it well enough for your tastes, but the answer is not to throw out the damage reduction that makes counterplay possible for most builds, especially glass cannon types and most solo players.

Partially true. They can simply reduce the nonsense mitigation and it'd make the same affect. Of course nobody says that players should be able to hit 50k Assassin's Will procs in Cyrodiil, but this insane mitigation combined with %50 reduction is so nonsense and so boring tbh.

You really have not made a case of insane mitigation in PvP other than just stating you have the opinion it is the case. A opinion few seem to agree.

The design of a large PvP zone as Cyro is encourages Zergs and they will always be there just as they have been since the game launched.

Other people did. %50 from battle spirit, %75 from mist form, major protection, minor protection, minor maim... Why you would make me name them anyways.

You are taking 50% less damage from them off the top. Since it is still possible to essentially one shot players it would be a horrid idea to change this.

I was going to go through each of those listed, but really now. I decided we will just take away your brutality, sorcery, Beserk, force and prophecy. Both minor and major.

I could add more but I think the point is clearly made. All that basically negates what you listed.

Besides none of this being an issue in PvP for 99% of those that enter, Heck, with that short list it really seems some want to oversimplify ESO game play and make into a children's game. Lets remove choice and make everyone a glass cannon. Lets force everyone to put offensive skills on their bar and make defense just plain silly.

Ultimate_Overlord

@jaschacasadiob16_ESO I cant even
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA

Ragnaroek93

Can you stop blaming CP? CP at least give the game more build diversity, in no CP you would see everyone running the same stuff (proc sets yay). And if you think TTK is lower in no CP then you haven't fought against someone using Troll King. Just give everyone in PvP max CP access and balance the game around it and forget about that no CP nonsense (which is clearly not what the majority of players prefer anyways).

themaddaedra

idk wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Have no idea how you guys could manage to relate this to be better players or crowded side's winning in a 10:1 fight.

Couldn't be further from the point. The point is THEY WON'T DIE no matter 1v1 or 1v10 or whatever.

PvE damage is being reduced saying it's for million hp bosses yet PvE sustain staying the same in Cyrodiil. Except shields which scale on damage. It has zero things to do with being good or being crowded. Sustain builds are way overperforming.

And of course people have right to complain about zergs. Zerg is not when one side is out numbered but when the other side is a fully survival-based train having %90 damage mitigation while running around.

I even have some friends who are in very famous zerg squads yet they said they do it because they don't know how to play alone. Calling them "better players" is way far from being sensible.

ZOS' response has been to address sustain-based builds by reducing their ability to sustain and do reasonable damage at the same thing. In other words, they are trying to fix the problem by reducing the problem, not adding more damage that will unbalance lots of other aspects of combat. Perhaps they haven't fixed it well enough for your tastes, but the answer is not to throw out the damage reduction that makes counterplay possible for most builds, especially glass cannon types and most solo players.

Partially true. They can simply reduce the nonsense mitigation and it'd make the same affect. Of course nobody says that players should be able to hit 50k Assassin's Will procs in Cyrodiil, but this insane mitigation combined with %50 reduction is so nonsense and so boring tbh.

You really have not made a case of insane mitigation in PvP other than just stating you have the opinion it is the case. A opinion few seem to agree.

The design of a large PvP zone as Cyro is encourages Zergs and they will always be there just as they have been since the game launched.

Other people did. %50 from battle spirit, %75 from mist form, major protection, minor protection, minor maim... Why you would make me name them anyways.

You are taking 50% less damage from them off the top. Since it is still possible to essentially one shot players it would be a horrid idea to change this.

I was going to go through each of those listed, but really now. I decided we will just take away your brutality, sorcery, Beserk, force and prophecy. Both minor and major.

I could add more but I think the point is clearly made. All that basically negates what you listed.

Besides none of this being an issue in PvP for 99% of those that enter, Heck, with that short list it really seems some want to oversimplify ESO game play and make into a children's game. Lets remove choice and make everyone a glass cannon. Lets force everyone to put offensive skills on their bar and make defense just plain silly.

Ok i will stop answering to this now because you just started to sound funny. Nobody here says that everyone should be playing 10/10 offensive or something. Hypotetical talking far from the issue and covered by your own limited pvp experience. It's very much obvious that sustain builds are winning all the time and if you will keep failing to see that point so be it. There's nothing to counter mist form or battle spirit which are the hugest by far. Then barriers, purges, shields... And there is no combination to negate all these mitigations at the same time, because zergs having them all at the same time. I can just grab my PvE templar tank and survive against anyone just by blocking and healing myself. Then when you optimize it for pvp and put it into a 24m zerg all you need to do is survive forever and deal like 1k damage running around. People on your path will keep falling and that's unavoidable.

paulsimonps

"Unplayable"



The way mitigation is calculated right now is fine and the amount of damage we are taking from things is not bad. Removing the 50% Battlespirit damage reduction would give players too much damage and the TTK, Time to Kill, would plummet to the ground. This is the first time I have seen anyone complain about this part of the battle spirit, most of the time its people wanting to add more to it, not remove something.

You speak of one problem, the organized zergs, but then claim another "problem" is causing their success. I would say that mitigation has very little to do with and the fact that they are an organized group has far more to do with it. Numbers matter, Organized numbers matters more. But there are ways to break them if you organize yourself as well. Since there has been zerg people have also been making zerg busting builds. Now they have varying degree of success but the idea is doable.

Lowering Time to Kill would not add excitement to the game it would add frustration when ganking becomes the way of life and being out of stealth for more than a few seconds will get you killed in a 2-3 combo you never saw coming. I do not see the current time to kill as bad, its pretty good right now. Sure in BGs Tank builds are king but that is another problem for another discussion, we were talking organized zergs in Cyrodiil, and as stated, there are ways to break them and fight back against them. Most by organizing yourself with others, or gank them with zerg buster builds or beat them with numbers. There are ways.

VaranisArano

If an organized group is organized enough to coordinate purges and barriers and shields without draining their healers dry of magicka, then what you are looking at is a group of organized people using the tools ZOS gave them effectively to mitigate your incoming damage.

Removing battle spirit might make them a slightly easier nut for you to crack, but it wouldn't remove the superiority that their organization gives them. A good organized raid would adapt and make better use of the mitigation options available, getting more tanky to compensate. What removing battle spirit would do is make everyone, including the enemies that the organized raid is smashing, that much squishier.

Organization is king when everyone without access to damage mitigation from a group dies after a couple of hits.

Biro123

The way I see combat in this game is, if we simplify it by omitting blocking/avoidance/cc etc. It effectively boils down to the rate of change of your health bar.

And that is a contest between damage received and healing received. (Both of which are equally impacted by battle spirit)

The size of your health pool is simply a buffer to absorb spikes in damage. Which you then follow with a burst heal to rebuild that buffer.

Now if battle-spirit is removed, it wouldn't change much. That contest between healing/damage will be just as even as it is now, except the spikes will be twice the size.
This plays right into the hands of gank builds and burst builds. But not change the survivability of anyone who cannot be 1-shot.

It would also make avoidence-based defences comparatively much stronger than mitigation-based.

Basically it would massively skew balance.

idk

themaddaedra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

idk wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Have no idea how you guys could manage to relate this to be better players or crowded side's winning in a 10:1 fight.

Couldn't be further from the point. The point is THEY WON'T DIE no matter 1v1 or 1v10 or whatever.

PvE damage is being reduced saying it's for million hp bosses yet PvE sustain staying the same in Cyrodiil. Except shields which scale on damage. It has zero things to do with being good or being crowded. Sustain builds are way overperforming.

And of course people have right to complain about zergs. Zerg is not when one side is out numbered but when the other side is a fully survival-based train having %90 damage mitigation while running around.

I even have some friends who are in very famous zerg squads yet they said they do it because they don't know how to play alone. Calling them "better players" is way far from being sensible.

ZOS' response has been to address sustain-based builds by reducing their ability to sustain and do reasonable damage at the same thing. In other words, they are trying to fix the problem by reducing the problem, not adding more damage that will unbalance lots of other aspects of combat. Perhaps they haven't fixed it well enough for your tastes, but the answer is not to throw out the damage reduction that makes counterplay possible for most builds, especially glass cannon types and most solo players.

Partially true. They can simply reduce the nonsense mitigation and it'd make the same affect. Of course nobody says that players should be able to hit 50k Assassin's Will procs in Cyrodiil, but this insane mitigation combined with %50 reduction is so nonsense and so boring tbh.

You really have not made a case of insane mitigation in PvP other than just stating you have the opinion it is the case. A opinion few seem to agree.

The design of a large PvP zone as Cyro is encourages Zergs and they will always be there just as they have been since the game launched.

Other people did. %50 from battle spirit, %75 from mist form, major protection, minor protection, minor maim... Why you would make me name them anyways.

You are taking 50% less damage from them off the top. Since it is still possible to essentially one shot players it would be a horrid idea to change this.

I was going to go through each of those listed, but really now. I decided we will just take away your brutality, sorcery, Beserk, force and prophecy. Both minor and major.

I could add more but I think the point is clearly made. All that basically negates what you listed.

Besides none of this being an issue in PvP for 99% of those that enter, Heck, with that short list it really seems some want to oversimplify ESO game play and make into a children's game. Lets remove choice and make everyone a glass cannon. Lets force everyone to put offensive skills on their bar and make defense just plain silly.

Ok i will stop answering to this now because you just started to sound funny. Nobody here says that everyone should be playing 10/10 offensive or something. Hypotetical talking far from the issue and covered by your own limited pvp experience. It's very much obvious that sustain builds are winning all the time and if you will keep failing to see that point so be it. There's nothing to counter mist form or battle spirit which are the hugest by far. Then barriers, purges, shields... And there is no combination to negate all these mitigations at the same time, because zergs having them all at the same time. I can just grab my PvE templar tank and survive against anyone just by blocking and healing myself. Then when you optimize it for pvp and put it into a 24m zerg all you need to do is survive forever and deal like 1k damage running around. People on your path will keep falling and that's unavoidable.

Now we are complaining about sustain builds and attempting to disparage those with differing opinions.

Ok, I am done with this. It is really weak attempting to belittle others as you when ones argument is not holding up. Besides, you have no clue about my experience in PvP. You merely disparaged me because I disagree. Sad.

Besides, I am not concerned. I do not seem to have an issue killing other players.

Mazbt

Damage still seems pretty high to me. Go from 100 to zero immediately if some high damage people get single target focus on me. I don't play super squish but certainly not a perma block tank type.

WillhelmBlack

The guy's got a point. There's not many PvP games you can Leeroy into any fight.

paulsimonps

Mazbt wrote: »

Damage still seems pretty high to me. Go from 100 to zero immediately if some high damage people get single target focus on me. I don't play super squish but certainly not a perma block tank type.

And OPs suggestion would mean you would die a lot faster still.

VaranisArano

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

The guy's got a point. There's not many PvP games you can Leeroy into any fight.

Problem is, if damage reduction were the actual problem creating Leeroys, everyone would be able to Leeroy. That's, ahem, not true of every build. Instead, the damage reduction allows every build to not have to spec into damage mitigation and tankiness in order to not die to a couple of hits.

The Leeroy Jenkins on the other hand, or to be more precise, the unkillable tanks the OP is complaining about, don't get their problematic damage mitigation from Battle Spirit. That comes from CP, various gear sets, benefits from heavy armor, benefits from blocking, line of sight, etc. All stuff that ZOS has tried, with varying success, to address.

Everyone benefits equally from the damage reduction due to Battle Spirit and it helps squishy glass cannon types far more than it does the tanky types. Without battle spirit, a tank is still a tank. Glass cannons are pure glass who'd better hope they get their damage out before they die. Anyone other than those two extremes now dies a lot faster to a couple of hits.

themaddaedra

There is no counter to zergs. Bombers are perfect for this job but zerg survival is always overdoing. Because aoe damage, detonation, destro ulti they all got nerfed.

Will zergs always be? Yes. But there should be encounter to them as well.

VaranisArano

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

idk

paulsimonps wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Damage still seems pretty high to me. Go from 100 to zero immediately if some high damage people get single target focus on me. I don't play super squish but certainly not a perma block tank type.

And OPs suggestion would mean you would die a lot faster still.

Exactly. OP confuses Zergs with the use of these skills and buffs and it is not the case by any means.

The changes that have occurred with the skills and buffs she has mentioned have really be small and have not given rise to Zergs. Zergs have been plentiful since PTS.

If anything, I see fewer of the just plain zerg trains today than on the PTS and the early months of the game. Slightly less, but what do I know. Apparently I am do not have enough PvP experience for this subject.

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Exactly. Heck, I used to run with a small group, usually 8 or less, and we used to mow down Zergs. It was fun and tactics for it work well with a well organized group. I miss running with Worthless Princess.

themaddaedra

idk wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Mazbt wrote: »

Damage still seems pretty high to me. Go from 100 to zero immediately if some high damage people get single target focus on me. I don't play super squish but certainly not a perma block tank type.

And OPs suggestion would mean you would die a lot faster still.

Exactly. OP confuses Zergs with the use of these skills and buffs and it is not the case by any means.

The changes that have occurred with the skills and buffs she has mentioned have really be small and have not given rise to Zergs. Zergs have been plentiful since PTS.

If anything, I see fewer of the just plain zerg trains today than on the PTS and the early months of the game. Slightly less, but what do I know. Apparently I am do not have enough PvP experience for this subject.

Well, sorry if i offended you. Don't want to turn it into a personal debate. Taking back my part.

And i didn't complain about zergs when they were counterable. If someone else did, that's their problem. My point is they are uncounterable at the very moment. I have been playing magicka nightblade ever since and i used to kill them back in good old days. Not everytime i try of course, but let's say i could kill enough zerg players to disable the zerg once in every 3rd try or so. At the moment, it doesn't matter even if i have siege support behind, or if i go with another 2 bombers coordinated. They just survive.

As i said before, zergs will always be, i accept that i might be chosen wrong title for this thread but my point is game needs an encounter to zergs. I don't even know if anyone could expect zergs to disappear. Pretty unrealistic.

You can also check this thread, he has similar points to what i am complaining about here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/382172/we-need-to-do-something-about-the-zergbads#latest

themaddaedra

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

paulsimonps

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

Long drawn out fights between large forces is kind of what a siege is though..... And are we not suppose to siege keeps or other? When people are pushing for capturing or defending something you will see large masses of players. A lot of the time its a collection of groups, organized on different levels, some solo, but regardless, is this really a problem? Seems more like you are not liking the style of PvP that cyrodiil provides. Large fights, Faction vs Faction vs Faction is what cyrodiil is about. Numbers always makes a difference, and to be honest there should be a limit to what super small groups can do to large "zergs". Sure organized groups of certain sizes should, and do effectively, combat zergs all the time, and they should be able to. But too few should not ever be able to deal with a zerg on their own. Organizing your own team or joining others of your alliance is the way to beat zergs, and so it should be. Its what makes Cyrodiil Cyrodiil.

idk

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

If a bunch of noobs are running into a large group of enemies and keep dying over an over I expect they will eventually learn or leave PvP as they probably should. The ole humorous definition of insanity comes to mind. Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

I do not think it is a bad thing when a group takes a resource and farms AP from noobs that die, run back and die again. If anything it should be a lesson to those new players.

Seriously though, Cyrodiil was designed specifically to encourage everything from large groups to solo ganking. It was designed to provide terrain for the development of different tactics. We know this because Matt Firror runs Zos and borrowed much for the design of Cyro from DAoC where he worked for several years.

So in the end. this discussion should really be about discussing tactics for handling Zergs that are known to work rather than the age old calling for nerfs.

Biro123

Is this now about zergs? Surely if the whole faction zergs to one keep, the easiest counter id s to spread out and take 4 of their keeps.?

With a siege limit of 20, 10 people at a keep will take it just as quick as 40 people (assuming each person mans 2 siege). That means you could take 4 keeps for each one that the 40-man zerg takes..

That would soon encourage them yo split up and spread out.

Basically, the counter to zergs is strategic, not tactical.

idk

Biro123 wrote: »

Is this now about zergs? Surely if the whole faction zergs to one keep, the easiest counter id s to spread out and take 4 of their keeps.?

With a siege limit of 20, 10 people at a keep will take it just as quick as 40 people (assuming each person mans 2 siege). That means you could take 4 keeps for each one that the 40-man zerg takes..

That would soon encourage them yo split up and spread out.

Basically, the counter to zergs is strategic, not tactical.

Have basically done this in defending emperor for our alliance. It was down to one keep so everyone was there and the fight lasted forever (remember how camps used to work).

The group I was in went and took another keep which took the pressure off the solitary one that had been defended for awhile. Tactics often require looking at the big picture.

oXI_Viper_IXo

paulsimonps wrote: »

Large fights, Faction vs Faction vs Faction is what cyrodiil is about.

I thought it was about unusually long load screens.

VaranisArano

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

I'm not trolling. We might be talking about different definitions of zergs, as you say.

To me, large groups in Cyrodiil fall into a couple of categories:

• Organized raid: these groups probably train together, have certain builds they run, and move and fight together as a coordinated unit following the calls of their leader. Depending on the raid, they may have a good mix of skills or overly rely on certain skills, like CCs or earthgore procs to carry them through. The mix of players often varies, you'll see some raids with tons of healers and some with tons of negates/destro ultis. Raids use different tactics, but again, the key is the organization and tactics.
• PUG raid: these are a loosely organized bunch of players who grouped up in order to be more effective in large numbers. These PUGs might go for AP farming or keep captures, but they are typically spread out and usually not following the calls of their leader in anything more than a "point them in the right direction" sort of way. This is a pretty good way for new players to learn the ropes in Cyrodiil.
• Loose PUGs: often referred to as "potatoes", these are the loose players that aren't attached to a group but are doing their own thing. Some might be small groups, others might be good solo players, but its really hard to distinguish in a large group. These players are very much doing their own thing, chasing the fights across the map. This ranges from "doesn't have a clue" to "knows exactly what they are doing".

Now a zerg forms when, due to certain objectives being more important than others and players being able to identify those important objectives, many players converge on the same objective. A zerg other includes both organized raid(s) and PUGs. Keep in mind that the PUGs and the organized raid are rarely acting quite in tandem, as the raid is following their leader, and the PUGs are (by and large) doing their own thing or hanging on the coattails of the organized raid. A PUG raid can serve this function for a bunch of loose PUGs, but its rarely as effective.

So there's a lot of confusion as to what exactly is the problem here.
Is it organized raids owning everyone because they have superior organization and tactics?
Is it organized raids making use of stuff like purges and dedicated healers to outmatch any sort of incoming damage short of another raid bringing the negates/eye of the storms?
Is it PUG raids who band together in numbers despite individual members not being that great?
Is it potatoes in large groups mowing down people in their path?
Is it zergs, which happen when important objectives bring lots of players together in the same location?

Each of those situations has a counter(s). I'm familiar with a lot of the tactics that are used to counter each of those situations, but its really hard to give a comprehensive answer unless I know what exactly we're talking about. Furthermore, my answers are going to keep in mind that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, while supporting everything from solo players, small groups, zergs, and faction stacks. So many of my answers are going to be "this is a good counter for this situation" but that may not solve your "my nightblade can't kill groups anymore" problem.

umagon

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

The reason fights between groups tend to drag out a lot of the time is because of the camps and their short respawn timer. If you want to have an impact on some of the organized groups the first thing to realize most of them use a strategy where they concentrate their forces into a small area. This opens them up to their survivability and damage being defbufed collectively. Fasalla’s guile minor defile can be enhanced to 23% via champ points which is just 7% away from the base 30% major defile. Fasalla’s effects all targets in range and reapplies every ~2 seconds.

Everyone doesn’t need to run the set but even 1-3 random individuals running the set can have impact on organized groups, if there is enough incoming damage from other individuals/pick up groups. Durok's Bane applies major defile and can be enhanced with champing points. The only problem with that set is zos placed it into pve land and made it bind on pick up. It was available on the pvp town vendors for a period of time. The sets that can assist in debuffing damage are knightmare and wizard's Riposte. Both apply minor maim.

themaddaedra

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

I'm not trolling. We might be talking about different definitions of zergs, as you say.

To me, large groups in Cyrodiil fall into a couple of categories:

• Organized raid: these groups probably train together, have certain builds they run, and move and fight together as a coordinated unit following the calls of their leader. Depending on the raid, they may have a good mix of skills or overly rely on certain skills, like CCs or earthgore procs to carry them through. The mix of players often varies, you'll see some raids with tons of healers and some with tons of negates/destro ultis. Raids use different tactics, but again, the key is the organization and tactics.
• PUG raid: these are a loosely organized bunch of players who grouped up in order to be more effective in large numbers. These PUGs might go for AP farming or keep captures, but they are typically spread out and usually not following the calls of their leader in anything more than a "point them in the right direction" sort of way. This is a pretty good way for new players to learn the ropes in Cyrodiil.
• Loose PUGs: often referred to as "potatoes", these are the loose players that aren't attached to a group but are doing their own thing. Some might be small groups, others might be good solo players, but its really hard to distinguish in a large group. These players are very much doing their own thing, chasing the fights across the map. This ranges from "doesn't have a clue" to "knows exactly what they are doing".

Now a zerg forms when, due to certain objectives being more important than others and players being able to identify those important objectives, many players converge on the same objective. A zerg other includes both organized raid(s) and PUGs. Keep in mind that the PUGs and the organized raid are rarely acting quite in tandem, as the raid is following their leader, and the PUGs are (by and large) doing their own thing or hanging on the coattails of the organized raid. A PUG raid can serve this function for a bunch of loose PUGs, but its rarely as effective.

So there's a lot of confusion as to what exactly is the problem here.
Is it organized raids owning everyone because they have superior organization and tactics?
Is it organized raids making use of stuff like purges and dedicated healers to outmatch any sort of incoming damage short of another raid bringing the negates/eye of the storms?
Is it PUG raids who band together in numbers despite individual members not being that great?
Is it potatoes in large groups mowing down people in their path?
Is it zergs, which happen when important objectives bring lots of players together in the same location?

Each of those situations has a counter(s). I'm familiar with a lot of the tactics that are used to counter each of those situations, but its really hard to give a comprehensive answer unless I know what exactly we're talking about. Furthermore, my answers are going to keep in mind that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, while supporting everything from solo players, small groups, zergs, and faction stacks. So many of my answers are going to be "this is a good counter for this situation" but that may not solve your "my nightblade can't kill groups anymore" problem.

Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.

My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.

I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.

I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.

Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.

paulsimonps

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.

There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.

But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?

Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.

I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.

I'm not trolling. We might be talking about different definitions of zergs, as you say.

To me, large groups in Cyrodiil fall into a couple of categories:

• Organized raid: these groups probably train together, have certain builds they run, and move and fight together as a coordinated unit following the calls of their leader. Depending on the raid, they may have a good mix of skills or overly rely on certain skills, like CCs or earthgore procs to carry them through. The mix of players often varies, you'll see some raids with tons of healers and some with tons of negates/destro ultis. Raids use different tactics, but again, the key is the organization and tactics.
• PUG raid: these are a loosely organized bunch of players who grouped up in order to be more effective in large numbers. These PUGs might go for AP farming or keep captures, but they are typically spread out and usually not following the calls of their leader in anything more than a "point them in the right direction" sort of way. This is a pretty good way for new players to learn the ropes in Cyrodiil.
• Loose PUGs: often referred to as "potatoes", these are the loose players that aren't attached to a group but are doing their own thing. Some might be small groups, others might be good solo players, but its really hard to distinguish in a large group. These players are very much doing their own thing, chasing the fights across the map. This ranges from "doesn't have a clue" to "knows exactly what they are doing".

Now a zerg forms when, due to certain objectives being more important than others and players being able to identify those important objectives, many players converge on the same objective. A zerg other includes both organized raid(s) and PUGs. Keep in mind that the PUGs and the organized raid are rarely acting quite in tandem, as the raid is following their leader, and the PUGs are (by and large) doing their own thing or hanging on the coattails of the organized raid. A PUG raid can serve this function for a bunch of loose PUGs, but its rarely as effective.

So there's a lot of confusion as to what exactly is the problem here.
Is it organized raids owning everyone because they have superior organization and tactics?
Is it organized raids making use of stuff like purges and dedicated healers to outmatch any sort of incoming damage short of another raid bringing the negates/eye of the storms?
Is it PUG raids who band together in numbers despite individual members not being that great?
Is it potatoes in large groups mowing down people in their path?
Is it zergs, which happen when important objectives bring lots of players together in the same location?

Each of those situations has a counter(s). I'm familiar with a lot of the tactics that are used to counter each of those situations, but its really hard to give a comprehensive answer unless I know what exactly we're talking about. Furthermore, my answers are going to keep in mind that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, while supporting everything from solo players, small groups, zergs, and faction stacks. So many of my answers are going to be "this is a good counter for this situation" but that may not solve your "my nightblade can't kill groups anymore" problem.

Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.

My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.

I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.

I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.

Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.

Get a friend that is a sorc, have them use negate and Restraining Prison on them as you run in with Eye of the storm, Proxy Det and Sap essance with Vicious Death slotted. Will still kill a lot of the people in such groups. Small organized group can still beat those types of groups. But I actually think one single person should not be able to kill a 24man group on their own. Help should be needed. And what I mentioned is just one of several ways to do that.

Pastas

themaddaedra wrote: »

Loading screens, lags, disconnections aside, damage reduction is the worst thing that makes pvp unplayable. Because it made organized trains totally unkillable. And organized trains are the first cause to incredible pings in Cyrodiil.

The thing is, they don't truly care how much damage they do. Either 1k or 5k, all they will do is running around killing people just by surviving. This is pure cancer and without curing it you can't cure pvp at all.

I know it's sometimes frustrating for others to die easily, but it will also mean that you can kill easily too. Everybody complain about zergs but it's complete nonsense that you also complain about damage you get and cry for reduction all the time.

Whatever set you bring, whatever events, pvp gives zero fun when everybody is being slaughtered by meat grinders.

I don't know how everyone else think about this, but i used to enjoy pvp despite the lags and bugs but now i only go there when i need AP. ***, boring, undying snb users all over the map.

Have you played before the 50% damage reduction?. I did, and I'm not missing that 25K+ snipe (where did you go Mr Torture?).

I agree with you that HA SnB builds are overperforming a bit now, but removing the damage reduction is not the solution in my opinion.

VaranisArano

themaddaedra wrote: »

Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.

My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.

I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.

I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.

Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.

Okay, thanks for clarifying that you mean organized raids that built for survival - which I usually see having a bunch of healers (or earthgore sets, right now) with tactics that center around running and healing while they regen their ultimates, until they rush out ultis blazing, and then return to the running and healing tactics if they didn't wipe their foes - because they have very little damage outside of their ultimates.

Which from the perspective of an organized raider whose raid isn't built around those tactics/builds, yeah, those guys are annoying. Effective, I can't deny that. But annoying. Which really means they are using good tactics and their organization effectively to make themselves a tough nut to crack and I can't really complain too much about that. (Though as an aside, I'm sure Earthgore will be up for some nerfing after Horns of the Reach is less of a new DLC.) For objective based PVP, which is what most organized raids do, this set-up works pretty well.

Tactics for dealing with these guys:

• Paulsimonps already listed a great one in his comment
• This one takes time, yes, and another semi-organized to organized raid.
  In the run & heal phase, spread them out and find the healers. Focus fire the healers and you wear down the raid.
  In the ulti drop phase, don't be where they dropped their ultimates. Just you don't want to stand in the middle of the incoming destro ulti train.
  Rinse repeat until your superior damage wears them down.
• Now, if your raid has negates, this gets a lot easier. Negates give you a window where you don't have as much healing, because the magicka healers have to get out. Negate these raids, and they melt a lot quick and you'll take out more healers.

So I understand that groups like this make PVP less enjoyable simply because they take a lot of effort to kill. But I don't think there's a way to disincentivize running half the group as healers (or whatever method they use) in order to have a very survivable group. Adding more means of incoming damage only makes them invest more heavily into tankiness and healing.

However consider the impact of removing damage reduction. Now, those coordinated heals, purges, earthgore procs are all still going to be present, though the group will take more damage. However, the small amount of damage that group can do have now doubled and their opponents have less coordinated defenses. Removing damage reduction makes it easier for that group to win, not harder.

Ultimately, you'll have to decide what you like doing and if dealing with these groups isn't your thing, that's fine. But there's nothing actually wrong with that playstyle, even though I personally think it sounds terribly boring. (I don't PVP with an organized raid to run after my leader and heal in between bombing people with ultimates). But it is making effective use of the tools ZOS gave them to play the map and objective based PVP, so there's nothing wrong with it. Nor do I think that ZOS needs to fundamentally change the way Cyrodiil works in order to address these groups. I suspect ZOS will first try to nerf the items they use, like the Earthgore Set.