themaddaedra wrote: »
Partially true. They can simply reduce the nonsense mitigation and it'd make the same affect. Of course nobody says that players should be able to hit 50k Assassin's Will procs in Cyrodiil, but this insane mitigation combined with %50 reduction is so nonsense and so boring tbh.
You really have not made a case of insane mitigation in PvP other than just stating you have the opinion it is the case. A opinion few seem to agree.
The design of a large PvP zone as Cyro is encourages Zergs and they will always be there just as they have been since the game launched.
themaddaedra wrote: »
Other people did. %50 from battle spirit, %75 from mist form, major protection, minor protection, minor maim... Why you would make me name them anyways.
You are taking 50% less damage from them off the top. Since it is still possible to essentially one shot players it would be a horrid idea to change this.
I was going to go through each of those listed, but really now. I decided we will just take away your brutality, sorcery, Beserk, force and prophecy. Both minor and major.
I could add more but I think the point is clearly made. All that basically negates what you listed.
Besides none of this being an issue in PvP for 99% of those that enter, Heck, with that short list it really seems some want to oversimplify ESO game play and make into a children's game. Lets remove choice and make everyone a glass cannon. Lets force everyone to put offensive skills on their bar and make defense just plain silly.
themaddaedra wrote: »
Ok i will stop answering to this now because you just started to sound funny. Nobody here says that everyone should be playing 10/10 offensive or something. Hypotetical talking far from the issue and covered by your own limited pvp experience. It's very much obvious that sustain builds are winning all the time and if you will keep failing to see that point so be it. There's nothing to counter mist form or battle spirit which are the hugest by far. Then barriers, purges, shields... And there is no combination to negate all these mitigations at the same time, because zergs having them all at the same time. I can just grab my PvE templar tank and survive against anyone just by blocking and healing myself. Then when you optimize it for pvp and put it into a 24m zerg all you need to do is survive forever and deal like 1k damage running around. People on your path will keep falling and that's unavoidable.
Damage still seems pretty high to me. Go from 100 to zero immediately if some high damage people get single target focus on me. I don't play super squish but certainly not a perma block tank type.
WillhelmBlack wrote: »The guy's got a point. There's not many PvP games you can Leeroy into any fight.
paulsimonps wrote: »
And OPs suggestion would mean you would die a lot faster still.
VaranisArano wrote: »There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.
There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.
But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?
Exactly. OP confuses Zergs with the use of these skills and buffs and it is not the case by any means.
The changes that have occurred with the skills and buffs she has mentioned have really be small and have not given rise to Zergs. Zergs have been plentiful since PTS.
If anything, I see fewer of the just plain zerg trains today than on the PTS and the early months of the game. Slightly less, but what do I know. Apparently I am do not have enough PvP experience for this subject.
VaranisArano wrote: »There are counters to zergs. Organized groups do it all the time. Coordinated small groups do it too.
There are counters to organized groups. Organized groups do it all the time.
But for a small group or a solo player vs an organized group? Yeah, superior organization, tactics, and yes, numbers are going to win. What else did you expect to happen?
themaddaedra wrote: »
Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.
I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.
themaddaedra wrote: »
Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.
I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.
Is this now about zergs? Surely if the whole faction zergs to one keep, the easiest counter id s to spread out and take 4 of their keeps.?
With a siege limit of 20, 10 people at a keep will take it just as quick as 40 people (assuming each person mans 2 siege). That means you could take 4 keeps for each one that the 40-man zerg takes..
That would soon encourage them yo split up and spread out.
Basically, the counter to zergs is strategic, not tactical.
paulsimonps wrote: »Large fights, Faction vs Faction vs Faction is what cyrodiil is about.
themaddaedra wrote: »
Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.
I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.
themaddaedra wrote: »
Sorry, big LOL to that. Zergs very barely fight each other and even if they did, it'd take tremendous time for a side to win. I haven't seen any zerg groups wiping before grinding everyone for at least 1 hour for more than 1 year now. Most of the time they just leave when they get bored killing the same people and getting less and less AP.
I don't even know anymore, either we call different things "zergs" or you are kind of trolling. It's now been a long time since there are no counters to zergs in this game.
VaranisArano wrote: »
I'm not trolling. We might be talking about different definitions of zergs, as you say.
To me, large groups in Cyrodiil fall into a couple of categories:
- Organized raid: these groups probably train together, have certain builds they run, and move and fight together as a coordinated unit following the calls of their leader. Depending on the raid, they may have a good mix of skills or overly rely on certain skills, like CCs or earthgore procs to carry them through. The mix of players often varies, you'll see some raids with tons of healers and some with tons of negates/destro ultis. Raids use different tactics, but again, the key is the organization and tactics.
- PUG raid: these are a loosely organized bunch of players who grouped up in order to be more effective in large numbers. These PUGs might go for AP farming or keep captures, but they are typically spread out and usually not following the calls of their leader in anything more than a "point them in the right direction" sort of way. This is a pretty good way for new players to learn the ropes in Cyrodiil.
- Loose PUGs: often referred to as "potatoes", these are the loose players that aren't attached to a group but are doing their own thing. Some might be small groups, others might be good solo players, but its really hard to distinguish in a large group. These players are very much doing their own thing, chasing the fights across the map. This ranges from "doesn't have a clue" to "knows exactly what they are doing".
Now a zerg forms when, due to certain objectives being more important than others and players being able to identify those important objectives, many players converge on the same objective. A zerg other includes both organized raid(s) and PUGs. Keep in mind that the PUGs and the organized raid are rarely acting quite in tandem, as the raid is following their leader, and the PUGs are (by and large) doing their own thing or hanging on the coattails of the organized raid. A PUG raid can serve this function for a bunch of loose PUGs, but its rarely as effective.
So there's a lot of confusion as to what exactly is the problem here.
Is it organized raids owning everyone because they have superior organization and tactics?
Is it organized raids making use of stuff like purges and dedicated healers to outmatch any sort of incoming damage short of another raid bringing the negates/eye of the storms?
Is it PUG raids who band together in numbers despite individual members not being that great?
Is it potatoes in large groups mowing down people in their path?
Is it zergs, which happen when important objectives bring lots of players together in the same location?
Each of those situations has a counter(s). I'm familiar with a lot of the tactics that are used to counter each of those situations, but its really hard to give a comprehensive answer unless I know what exactly we're talking about. Furthermore, my answers are going to keep in mind that Cyrodiil is designed for groups of 8 to 24 players, while supporting everything from solo players, small groups, zergs, and faction stacks. So many of my answers are going to be "this is a good counter for this situation" but that may not solve your "my nightblade can't kill groups anymore" problem.
themaddaedra wrote: »
Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.
My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.
I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.
I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.
Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.
themaddaedra wrote: »Loading screens, lags, disconnections aside, damage reduction is the worst thing that makes pvp unplayable. Because it made organized trains totally unkillable. And organized trains are the first cause to incredible pings in Cyrodiil.
The thing is, they don't truly care how much damage they do. Either 1k or 5k, all they will do is running around killing people just by surviving. This is pure cancer and without curing it you can't cure pvp at all.
I know it's sometimes frustrating for others to die easily, but it will also mean that you can kill easily too. Everybody complain about zergs but it's complete nonsense that you also complain about damage you get and cry for reduction all the time.
Whatever set you bring, whatever events, pvp gives zero fun when everybody is being slaughtered by meat grinders.
I don't know how everyone else think about this, but i used to enjoy pvp despite the lags and bugs but now i only go there when i need AP. ***, boring, undying snb users all over the map.
themaddaedra wrote: »Well, well explained. The problem i bring is fully survival-based trains with 24m each dealing like 1k damage. As for the choice of play, sure it's up to them. But truly there are no counters to these groups unless you want to waste 2 hours of your pvp time and get another fully optimized group to fight them meanwhile. It takes so long that pvp doesn't seem fun anymore.
My nb? Yes it doesn't kill these groups anymore. And i'm uncomfy about it. But it's more about the survival being too op. I have sorc, templar, dk, stam and mag ones, so i can play them as well. Pointing nb is because bomber nightblades are the best counters to these groups and it doesn't work anymore.
I think i have a clue when you say they are counterable but as i said it would take tremendous time, enough to feel grumpy about pvp.
I do love how cyrodiil was designed, despite the majority of pvpers. But seriously i can't be the only one who gets bored seeing same people doing these trains for 4 years now without being good players or without putting much effort to gameplay. I have been in some of these groups, most invited me to their guilds but it was so boring i couldn't relate how it feels good to them.
Without going further from the issue, it's just making pvp less fun when people don't die.