The Zerg Drama Thread (formerly "how to fight ball groups")

Crown · October 2017

I'll probably update this a few times from the comments and responses, and the latest version will always be at: https://darkelves.com/how-to-win-vs-ball-groups/

EDIT 2017/11/01 @ 12:15pm: After numerous comments, I've separated a lot of the points into offense, defence, and siege areas of the pvp guides:
https://darkelves.com/offense/
https://darkelves.com/defense/
https://darkelves.com/siege/ (separated into taking keeps, defending keeps, and fighting players)

HERE'S THE UPDATED CONTENT (OLD VERSION HAS BEEN REMOVED):

The content below is intended for players and groups who have not developed their own (successful) strategies on how to counter these groups. I see random groups and PuGs run into these ball groups and die way too often and can only blame it on their not understanding what’s going on. I hope this helps!

First, please read the Offense section, the Defence section, and the Siege section. These sections contain some basics in addition to tips on dealing with ball groups. What comes below is excerpts and short tips that apply to ball groups, though it is by no means all-encompassing.

STRATEGY:

Pay attention. I can’t stress this enough. If you’re going to blindly follow your group leader without watching what’s going on, you’re going to have a bad time. If you're going to madly focus on killing one person, chances are you're going to get trampled to death.
You can’t take them out alone. Don’t even bother trying. Help another group that is there, or go do something else. These groups prey on the weak, unskilled, or small group players and they will try to pull you together so that they can hit more of you at once. Don’t let them get away with this. If you leave them alone and they have nobody to kill, they’ll move away trying to find more players at once.
The key to winning versus these groups is strategy. You're going to need a reasonable number of players to coordinate their damage (player damage or siege damage) and debuffs (snare/stun/slow/defile/breach/etc) in order to take them out or make them run away.

DEFENCE:

Keep moving, and keep a distance from them until you’re ready to engage or ready to try and bait out their ultimates.
If you have solid ranged damage or debuffs, keep them applied. Corrupting Pollen, Dark Flare, and Inevitable Detonation are all good examples that can affect how and when they will attack.
Opposing ball groups will use their ultimates together, and will proxy together before they destro. Consider the timing of proxy – that’s how much time they’ve allotted to moving to you so that they all explode together. Don’t be where they are going.
They’re going to be spamming crowd control (slows, snares, and hard cc). Be aware that you might have trouble moving, and plan accordingly.
Use what methods you have available to not be where they are going with their bombs. Elusive Mist Form, Retreating Maneuvers, Shuffle, Immovable potions, and any methods you have to get snare or cc immunity and speed to get out.
You may want to try using cc (crowd control) on them, though they’ll probably have immovable potions up and have at least one player spamming Retreating Maneuvers. Any cc is good to try and break them up or slow them down, though don’t sacrifice yourself to do such.
If you have damage mitigation, use it! Shields can’t be crit, and a shield that is up while mist form is active will take damage post-mitigation (75% less). Ultimates like Warden’s sleet provide 30% incoming damage mitigation and Templar’s Nova provide 30% opponent outgoing damage mitigation. Use them if needed.

OFFENSE:

Keep as much siege as you can on them. Siege that does damage, like Cold Stone trebuchets if they’re in a tower, and Cold Fire ballista if they’re in a keep. Try to coordinate hits. One Oil catapult is also nice, and a Meat bag if you’re unsure if there’s a Defile build fighting them. See the Siege section for more insights.
If you’ve managed to bait out their ultimates, or once you’re out or have escaped their bombs, consider that this is the best time to hit them back. They’ve just blown their ultimates, so will need between 15 and 30 seconds to get them back up (subjective timing, though a good base for your strategic thinking).
When counter attacking, be quick and accurate with Negates. Players can’t cast in a Negate (damage or healing). Once they’re in, they won’t be able to anything other than run – either towards you and hope that their destro ultimate does damage while getting out of the negate – or retreat. It’s up to the leader to call for a defensive or offensive Negate. You’ll hopefully have a few of them in group.
Separate them and pick off the one(s) that are out of the group. Wardens can use their circle to teleport them. DKs can grab one with chains. NBs can drop a fear trap in their path, and cause a few to be separated if they don’t break free quick enough. Those that become separated need to be targeted and taken down quickly.
If you can tab target a player with higher importance (such as healers or the group leader – if known), then it makes things easier if you try to single target that player in order to disrupt the group. Some groups fall apart when the leader dies, others will obsess about getting their healers back up (if they run low on burst healers), and others won’t care and just continue to play and recover as normal.
Learn about your opponents if they are regular organised groups. Their leaders will have relatively consistent play styles, so if you can predict what they’ll do most of the time, countering them and winning fights will be easier.
Don’t let them resurrect. You’ll probably take out half, maybe 3/4 of them if you execute your bomb or counter well. There will probably at least one templar in Kagrenac’s Hope (faster resurrecting speed) trying to get them back up. If it looks like they won’t be able to recover, some will likely stay to delay you, while a few of them will run away to get a camp up.
Most of the ball groups are going to be running fairly tanky, so you will need a sufficient amount of damage to get through their survivability. This may mean that you’re running a ball group yourself or at least stacking your ultimates. With the state of the game (in Q4 2017), you’ll probably need at least eight players executing perfectly, or at least twelve players executing well in your group to take out a full raid (24) of opponents who play like this.

Please let me know if there's anything that you believe should be added/changed/etc. Like everything else @darkelves.com this is meant to help people new to PvP or who haven't given much thought to strategy.

Biro123 · October 2017

TL:DR; play as they do?

Crown · October 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

TL:DR; play as they do?

@Biro123 To a lesser degree yes, though what I was going for was more along the lines of.. "Play coordinated and strategically".

WillhelmBlack · October 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

TL:DR; play as they do?

Yes

Minno · October 2017

Great thread, I like the insight for new players and the reminder of why this is the meta for large raid play. Thanks crown!

I had some thoughts, but don't want to clutter the thread, but thought it was a good segway:

One thing I hope gets seen by this thread, and something we can create a new thread for to discuss in detail, the need for mobilty options for those of us that don't run in a coordinated group with access to a dedicated rapids spammer (and especially newer players). Right now we only have 2; vampire/2 hander and both have serious drawbacks on their use depending on their viewpoint. And these options are not very clear on how they should be used/selected according to the viewpoint of newer players, so they are easily forgotten about in the context of PvP.

The way I see it, me and Rinaldo will never be able to deal any DMG to these groups and I don't expect to have PvP changed so I can (that's unfair to either playstyles). If I want to do this I should look for 8 other friends to help. But I should have the tools required to avoid encase spamming and move without snares.

Adding unique but easily accessible mobilty options for all classes, would be helping both newer and experienced players. And this would make destro bombing more challenging, since it would require potentially adding different strategies or abilities to help deal with the mobilty.

Crown · October 2017

Thanks @Minno !

@IxSTALKERxI suggested I add mist form to the shield line and I forgot to do that. Adding it now on the darkelves page.

Minno · October 2017

Crown wrote: »

Thanks @Minno !

@IxSTALKERxI suggested I add mist form to the shield line and I forgot to do that. Adding it now on the darkelves page.

Definitely add forward momentum/beserker rage too. Despite the 2k Stam cost and/or single target ulti, both give you 8 seconds of snare immunity and if you time them both, you can get 16 seconds of moving freely for targeting healers/backline support (8 seconds in, 8 seconds out).

frozywozy · October 2017

If you want something less complicated to survive against a ball group, slot mist form.

Crown · October 2017

Added the following too:

If you can tab target a player with higher importance (such as healers or the group leader - if known), then it makes things easier if you try to single target that player in order to disrupt the group. Some groups fall apart when the leader dies, others will obsess about getting their healers back up (if they run low on burst healers), and others won't care and just continue to play and recover as normal.

Learn about your opponents if they are regular organised groups. Their leaders will have relatively consistent play styles, so if you can predict what they'll do most of the time, countering them and winning fights will be easier.

Crown · October 2017

frozywozy wrote: »

If you want something less complicated to survive against a ball group, slot mist form.

Thanks! Added this earlier (I forgot that Stalker mentioned it yesterday):

If you’re a vampire, use mist form. You can’t be snared, and you get major expedition (pretty much the same as a retreating cast), in addition to taking less damage while you get out of the bomb area.

Agrippa_Invisus · October 2017

As an addendum to some of Crown's points:

Crown wrote: »

[*] There will probably be at least one player with a destro that starts a few seconds later than the rest of the group slightly behind, so as to clean up anyone that lives through the first wave. You probably shouldn’t run right through them, as you’ll get hit by the follow-up players. Spreading to the side will usually be better.

Actually running through them quickly can be one of the best ways to get out of their way. They usually won't turn back on themselves until after their destros are down. You do a) have to be tanky to make it, b) have an immove pot up, or c) just mist form. I find C) is the easiest. If you catch them just as they prox up (so before they put up their destros) and just sprint through them quickly you'll take only light damage at most. You have to have good timing, but this can leave you in the rear to pick off the fat kids or rez folks they've plowed over.

Crown wrote: »

[*] Separate them and pick off the one(s) that are out of the group. Wardens can use their circle to teleport them. DKs can grab one with chains. NBs can drop a fear trap in their path, and cause a few to be separated if they don’t break free quick enough. Those that become separated need to be targeted and taken down quickly.

Kill the fat kids. Kill the fat kids. KILL THE FAT KIDS. When you have a blob group running around stacked, as a solo player one of the most important and influential things you can do is isolate and kill one of the slower members of the group. If that group relies heavily on Remembrance to operate, due to the immobility of it, those slower members will often be healers. If the blob is rounding a corner hard stun the guy in the back and jump on him with all the burst you have. He'll often be out of LoS of his team's heals and you can burn him down (especially if you have a strong single target burst build -- looking at you stam 1vXers). The more and more that die this way, the more the squad is retracing its steps for rezzes or just losing people to attrition.

Crown wrote: »

[*] Your ultimates have to go off at the same time. Have at least three destros and one sleet ready to go as soon as you hit them. Have the second group of at least three destros and one sleet cast about 4 seconds into the first. Ensure that you have a Negate going out as they move out of the first one or as the first one is removed (probably by an Earthgore proc).

Vital to taking a chunk outta the group all at once. You see that DK flying in with a leap? Drop something else on them too. You see a negate pop up on them? Hit your ulti, too. Doesn't require voice chat to coordinate the ulti drop, just vigilance and being attentive.

Crown wrote: »

[*] Prepare and practice baiting. If a few players are able to get close enough that your opponents think they have a good chance to kill them, they’ll pop their destros and charge. Those players should have Retreating, and immovable pot ready, and someone to heal them from range. As soon as their destros are out and will only last long enough for the rest of your group to get into them, it’s time for your counter bomb.

There are soft taunts that can work amazingly well to bait ball groups. I used to run in front of VE to get them to intentionally follow me instead of bombing my team mates. Why? Because Bulba and I did not have a very good relationship. And they would, indeed chase. You want to act as bait for a particular bomb squad all the time?

Teabag them. Constantly. Especially their group leader. Send them rage tells. Call them noobs, zerglings, whatever. DO NOT BREAK TOS DOING THIS. Be the irritating little bug they want so badly to squash.

Then lead them right into a zerg to get bulldozed or away from where your buddies are all rezzing. Or directly under oils on a keep porch. Or anything. Team up with a bomb blade and make a 40K tank build for yourself. Wait until they (or any other group) is all on you and then have your buddies bomb them.

There's more ways in pvp to taunt than just a skill on a bar. PsyOps works.

Crown wrote: »

[*] Be quick and accurate with Negates. Players can’t cast in a Negate. Once they’re in, they won’t be able to anything other than run towards you and hope that their destro ultimate does damage while getting out of the negate – or retreat. It’s up to the leader to call for a defensive or offensive Negate. You’ll hopefully have a few of them in group.

If you're a sorc and want to have an impact on group fights, you need Negate on at least your back bar, whichever morph you want. Negate is powerful. Wait until right after you see the Earthgore procs go off and then drop it on their [snip]. Follow up with spammed Encase and that can be a very powerful tool towards wiping a bomb group. One of the worst things that can happen to a group is to get Negate/Encased right in the path of siege. I've seen groups I was in loose 4-6 player easily do to that, putting the rest of the squad simply on the run for their lives.

Now a few other things:

[*] Harry and Harass: If they're running, don't relent. If they're trying to get a tent out, don't stop until you're on the tent dropper. Interrupt them or torch the tent immediately. Kill people as they rez.

[*] Be aggressive when they spread: If they've spread out to avoid a bomb or on siege, go after the squishiest individuals and murder them. Make them ball back up to survive.

[*] Handling Keep Sieges: Ball groups will often try to solo keeps and outposts. Outposts are harder to defend against them as they can get quick access to the flags. Keeps, otoh, are much easier to handle. Do the following:

Always repair them in if you can. Prevent pugs from coming to help them, prevent them from getting back in from a tent on a second try. If they're spending too much time running around the keep clearing your buddies, then the keep's going to unflagged and they're screwed. If they catch you on reps, just mist/stealth away. Make them chase away from the safety of the group to kill you. If they do that, turn and murder the idiot doing the chasing.
Flag Dance. I can't stress how important this is. If they get inside and are pressing the flags, be on the flag they are not. 6 people will flip a flag as fast as their whole blob. Keep running back and forth, misting through them if you have to and then healing up. Put siege on the flags so they can't, even if it's a treb. Keep doing this as long as you can until reinforcements arrive.
Negate the ram. I never see this enough. They have 6 guys on a ram and pouring oils through their siege shields isn't denting them? Time it for an oil pour (and see if you can get folks to drop meteors) and negate the ram. Shield gone. Local heals gone. They just took 2-4 oils and a meteor. How much do you think they're hurting now? If nothing else, you get them to back off the ram and range the door down and give your faction more time to arrive en masse.
In Keeps put so much oil down you MAKE them go upstairs. Why? Time. You are buying time for the faction to arrive en masse. Get up there and plink them and *** them off and make them chase you around like idiots when they should be flipping the flags. Do whatever it takes. And if they don't? Oil the crap outta them. On person can run 4 oils pretty well. That means in a trikeep, both flags should have four oils over them if just two people show up to defend it. In the outpost keeps such as Drakelowe, run the D ring to make them chase you around it. Again, you are buying time, not necessarily living.

[Edited to remove profanity]

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2017

You forgot the only 2 things which actually matter.

1. Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

2. Gather as many people to your group possible whilst also following 1. Preferably 24+

otoh most of your points apply to actually running a decent group because they are just effective ways to fight in general. so Its helpful for players to have them written down I guess

WillhelmBlack · October 2017

Just lag everything as hard as you can?

No, I prefer kill the healer approach. Been working for me and my group for years.

Know your enemy.

Satiar · October 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You forgot the only 2 things which actually matter.

1. Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

2. Gather as many people to your group possible whilst also following 1. Preferably 24+

otoh most of your points apply to actually running a decent group because they are just effective ways to fight in general. so Its helpful for players to have them written down I guess

Knowledge gap in this game is tremendous.

Vilestride · October 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

TL:DR; play as they do?

First thing that came to my mind as well.

Really good guide crown and it's great to see it outlined in a way that is digestible. Ultimately though this is pretty much the basics of group play and everything going through these groups minds Already.

Also I would change the speed pots part. Unless they changed it this patch you don't want any source of major expodition other than your rapids or they will counter each other. Use either speed pots or rapids. Not both.

All in all good analysis it would be great to see more organized groups executing this kind of play. Just keep in mind the group you're trying to kill is thinking the same things.

Crown · October 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

There's an attitude that a lot of good players seem to have, where they seem to feel that it's not fair for them to be killed by overwhelming numbers regardless of the situation.

Lets say you're running solo, and you've been ganking opponents, getting a lot of kills, then all of a sudden the guy you tried to gank didn't die (he was running mage light so wasn't stunned from your stealth hit, and earthgore saved his [snip]). He hits mage light, gap closes to you and keeps hitting mage light to prevent you from stealthing, then 3-4 other players chase you around a rock for 30 seconds and kill you. Are you going to complain and hate whisper because you died? Was it unfair for that player to assume the role of "keep the opponent visible" while others kill you? Many seem to think so. Many even seem to think that they should have been allowed to escape, because they're all alone and the only people who have the right to kill them are other solo players.

Looking at it from a larger group scenario, lets say you're running in an amazingly organised group with very good synergy. Most of you are completely useless when running in less that a dozen, though when you have that dozen you're mostly unstoppable versus the PuGs, unskilled random players, and uncoordinated masses. Even groups made up of 5-6 great players won't wipe you - though they'll take out the squishy players and healers easily enough before getting killed themselves. After you've taken a keep, and rolled over 40 or 50 random unskilled or unorganised players, a solid group of 8 shows up, yells at the random people to do one thing each, organises them as much as possible, dropping various siege for them to use, whispering other group leaders who have 5-6 players to coordinate, and then executes a perfect counter bomb wiping your group.

Whenever situations similar to the above two scenarios happen, the hate whispers are strong.. There are very few regular, coordinated, and competent groups made up of skilled players who are willing to run the min/maxed builds to best benefit the group. Fighting against such groups takes working together with other players and groups to make up for whatever it is you're missing in your own group.

I've said many times that there is no honour or glory in PvP. Dead is dead and points are points.

EDIT: This isn't meant to insult the 4-5 groups who run the very organised 12-16's. These days the most I can get of that calibre of player is usually 6-8, otherwise I'd be running that myself. Too many of my friends have left the game, or just don't like playing in groups larger than a handful (they also refuse to play prime time due to lag). This response was meant to highlight the fact that many players' attitudes are... as they are...

[Edited to remove profanity]

Crown · October 2017

Vilestride wrote: »

Also I would change the speed pots part. Unless they changed it this patch you don't want any source of major expodition other than your rapids or the will counter each other. Use either speed pots or rapids. Not both.

@Vilestride That's a good point.. The challenge for most players will be relying on other peoples' rapids. The groups that don't need to read this are the ones who know what to do and have sufficient timely rapids'. The groups that do need to read this probably don't have much rapids. I'll add a clarification to that paragraph once I come up with a good way of phrasing it. Thanks!

Vilestride · October 2017

Crown wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Also I would change the speed pots part. Unless they changed it this patch you don't want any source of major expodition other than your rapids or the will counter each other. Use either speed pots or rapids. Not both.

@Vilestride That's a good point.. The challenge for most players will be relying on other peoples' rapids. The groups that don't need to read this are the ones who know what to do and have sufficient timely rapids'. The groups that do need to read this probably don't have much rapids. I'll add a clarification to that paragraph once I come up with a good way of phrasing it. Thanks!

Yeah fair point to. Thought I would just point it out so people don't read this and then start screaming about their rapids not working.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 2017

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You forgot the only 2 things which actually matter.

1. Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

2. Gather as many people to your group possible whilst also following 1. Preferably 24+

otoh most of your points apply to actually running a decent group because they are just effective ways to fight in general. so Its helpful for players to have them written down I guess

Knowledge gap in this game is tremendous.

As is the lack of organised competitive groups

Crown wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

There's an attitude that a lot of good players seem to have, where they seem to feel that it's not fair for them to be killed by overwhelming numbers regardless of the situation.

I'm not saying this. I'm merely pointing out that if you want to efficiently kill an enemy group this is actually the easiest way. If you are making a guide surely this should feature.

Vilestride · October 2017

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You forgot the only 2 things which actually matter.

1. Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

2. Gather as many people to your group possible whilst also following 1. Preferably 24+

otoh most of your points apply to actually running a decent group because they are just effective ways to fight in general. so Its helpful for players to have them written down I guess

Knowledge gap in this game is tremendous.

Indeed. Which is why it's important to teach people who will listen.

Satiar · October 2017

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You forgot the only 2 things which actually matter.

1. Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

2. Gather as many people to your group possible whilst also following 1. Preferably 24+

otoh most of your points apply to actually running a decent group because they are just effective ways to fight in general. so Its helpful for players to have them written down I guess

Knowledge gap in this game is tremendous.

As is the lack of organised competitive groups .

You’re telling me. My last years in ESO were essentially spent fighting the same basic group of players: Nexus/Haxus/Havoc/Drac. The lack of variety is glaring.

Subversus · October 2017

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

You forgot the only 2 things which actually matter.

1. Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

2. Gather as many people to your group possible whilst also following 1. Preferably 24+

otoh most of your points apply to actually running a decent group because they are just effective ways to fight in general. so Its helpful for players to have them written down I guess

Knowledge gap in this game is tremendous.

As is the lack of organised competitive groups .

You’re telling me. My last years in ESO were essentially spent fighting the same basic group of players: Nexus/Haxus/Havoc/Drac. The lack of variety is glaring.

Don't blame anyone, MMOs are a dying genre in general; especially grindy ones like ESO or SWTOR...

WillhelmBlack · October 2017

Crown wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Zerg Surf with your faction and hit them when they are already fighting twice their number

There's an attitude that a lot of good players seem to have, where they seem to feel that it's not fair for them to be killed by overwhelming numbers regardless of the situation.

Lets say you're running solo, and you've been ganking opponents, getting a lot of kills, then all of a sudden the guy you tried to gank didn't die (he was running mage light so wasn't stunned from your stealth hit, and earthgore saved his [snip]). He hits mage light, gap closes to you and keeps hitting mage light to prevent you from stealthing, then 3-4 other players chase you around a rock for 30 seconds and kill you. Are you going to complain and hate whisper because you died? Was it unfair for that player to assume the role of "keep the opponent visible" while others kill you? Many seem to think so. Many even seem to think that they should have been allowed to escape, because they're all alone and the only people who have the right to kill them are other solo players.

Looking at it from a larger group scenario, lets say you're running in an amazingly organised group with very good synergy. Most of you are completely useless when running in less that a dozen, though when you have that dozen you're mostly unstoppable versus the PuGs, unskilled random players, and uncoordinated masses. Even groups made up of 5-6 great players won't wipe you - though they'll take out the squishy players and healers easily enough before getting killed themselves. After you've taken a keep, and rolled over 40 or 50 random unskilled or unorganised players, a solid group of 8 shows up, yells at the random people to do one thing each, organises them as much as possible, dropping various siege for them to use, whispering other group leaders who have 5-6 players to coordinate, and then executes a perfect counter bomb wiping your group.

Whenever situations similar to the above two scenarios happen, the hate whispers are strong.. There are very few regular, coordinated, and competent groups made up of skilled players who are willing to run the min/maxed builds to best benefit the group. Fighting against such groups takes working together with other players and groups to make up for whatever it is you're missing in your own group.

I've said many times that there is no honour or glory in PvP. Dead is dead and points are points.

EDIT: This isn't meant to insult the 4-5 groups who run the very organised 12-16's. These days the most I can get of that calibre of player is usually 6-8, otherwise I'd be running that myself. Too many of my friends have left the game, or just don't like playing in groups larger than a handful (they also refuse to play prime time due to lag). This response was meant to highlight the fact that many players' attitudes are... as they are...

Church!

[Edited for quote]

Joy_Division · October 2017

Pretty good guide for effective group play strategies.

I would add this to people who don't group up.

In general I would say that if an enemy group is moving in concert and looks like a bunch of ducklings following their mother, that's an experienced raid guild and a *much* greater threat than a blob of grouped enemies. Recognize the difference between these even though people will refer to both as a "zerg."

Against a blob of grouped enemies, you can be as aggressive as you experience allows as they do not pose an immediate threat to a player who knows what they are doing unless that player makes a mistake (such as overextending).

Against a raid guild, your approach needs to much more cautious. If they are "retreating" against anything less than 2-3 times their number, they aren't retreating, they are baiting you into a choke to nuke you. Do not follow. A sole player will have a hard time doing much of anything against them because of their cross healing, rapid maneuver and purge spamming, and overall coordination. The best time to attack them is after they do their bomb and even then they are going to shrug off your attacks unless they are outnumbered.

If I admitted I hate fighting against these groups because most of the time I feel useless and if I make a single mistake, I'm likely to insta-die, I imagine I'm not exactly alone in feeling as such. Since we all know ZoS isn't going to all of a sudden change the mechanics after 3 years, this is would I would advise to people who also hate fighting these groups.

Do *NOT* fight them on their terms. Just about every call and every maneuver they make is done with the sole purpose of culling out all the PuGs following them such that they find a killing ground (usually a chokepoint) and eliminate them piecemeal. Don't get strung out and follow them. Don't be a Pug. Make them come to you. If they holed up in a resource tower, don't be a potato and stand in the doorway pew-pewing them. You are just feeding them ultimate. You either storm in with sufficient force or you wait for them to get bored and jump off. If it's a Mexican stand-off, go into the keep and have a much more fulfilling time at Alessia bridge.

The only time where you really have to fight these groups is at contest alliance objectives. Every other time you get farmed by them if your choice, your responsibility, not Zos's. At contested alliance objectives, there are terrain, siege, other allies, forward camps, etc., that open up the options of dealing with them. You still probably wont be able to root them, stun them, and it will be hard to get kills, but with all the siege hitting them and the presence of objective flags means they have to take more risks and do things other than string out PuGs. Their destro bomb can only cover a small portion of a keep, so as long as you maintain your ability to move, you can harass them, pick off stragglers, and pounce when an opportunity presents itself.

The other thing I would say is after a while, you'll learn the names of the players and the more dangerous raid groups. They vary greatly in quality and in my estimation at this point there are not many left that compel the super-cautious advice I listed above. There are a number of groups these organized bomb-groups but make mistakes and aren't nearly as effective. Learn the difference between them and adjust accordingly. With the raid groups of lesser quality, you can be play more aggressively provided you got enough friendlys around you that know what they are doing.

Rohamad_Ali · October 2017

Another great guide Crown . Good info and very instructive . Good to see older players helping others .

Great follow up by Agrippa and Joy too . Awesomes for everyone .

IxSTALKERxI · November 2017

Ya mistform OP. Rather than spamming shields, apply harness magicka on yourself once, moments before taking damage, then mistform through their group with the shield on and out the other side so your shield takes less damage, you gotta cast the mistform before they cast negate though.

That's if your surfing your faction though, It's a lot different in a GvG when you are the sole focus of the enemy group.

Crown · November 2017

@IxSTALKERxI I didn't actually know that if you shield then mist, the shield takes post-mitigated damage from mist. It makes sense - but not something I've ever done. Thanks!

Vilestride · November 2017

Also worth noting is that all these things will take some composure to execute under the intense pressure of the forecasted fire storms. May we pray for some blood rain to ease the heat.

Sanct16 · November 2017

I think this guide is a bit pointless. Most of the tactics you describe will work well on the less organised raids but those usually are factionsurfing so this guide isn't really applicable. Against top guilds they won't work very consistent as it's not so hard to find counters to these counters.

Especially with the fact in mind that this guide is mostly interesting for "bad" groups, it's even more pointless in a way, as they obviously lack the necessary understanding of the fight and probably just end up getting baited while trying to bait themselve. I think a more successful suggestion would be to wait in sneak for the ball group to come close and then just cast all storms and negates on them.

Also I don't really see why you would want to cast a 2nd wave of ultimates with a 4 second delay. As a smaller group bombing a bigger one, your best bet imo is trying to kill them before they can cast defensives and counternegate. If you don't kill them in the first 4 seconds, you most likely won't kill them at all.

Vilestride · November 2017

Sancts glass is always half empty :P

Minno · November 2017

Sanct16 wrote: »

I think this guide is a bit pointless. Most of the tactics you describe will work well on the less organised raids but those usually are factionsurfing so this guide isn't really applicable. Against top guilds they won't work very consistent as it's not so hard to find counters to these counters.

Especially with the fact in mind that this guide is mostly interesting for "bad" groups, it's even more pointless in a way, as they obviously lack the necessary understanding of the fight and probably just end up getting baited while trying to bait themselve. I think a more successful suggestion would be to wait in sneak for the ball group to come close and then just cast all storms and negates on them.

Also I don't really see why you would want to cast a 2nd wave of ultimates with a 4 second delay. As a smaller group bombing a bigger one, your best bet imo is trying to kill them before they can cast defensives and counternegate. If you don't kill them in the first 4 seconds, you most likely won't kill them at all.

This is why in my comment I mentioned the segway into why we need all classes to have accessible sources of mobility and without cost increase mechanics attached to them. Very hard to counter spamable snares+roots when the only two immune abilities in the game are locked behind a Stam weapon heal and vampire where you can't Sprint or heal in mist form.