The Zerg Drama Thread (formerly "how to fight ball groups")

Ixtyr

technohic wrote: »

ishilb14_ESO wrote: »

Does no one remember the good old days of Bloodthorn, when DC could camp EPs gates with 100 players at each? What we need is for AD to stop pushing into DC territory and emp ring, and instead push up from Drake to Arrius and Farragut and just camp the South gate while DC holds the North gate. Dracarys will not be able to take out either faction stack and thus their bomb group will be neutralized

I'd rather people ball up so they can fight each other rather than demoralize a faction like that. Makes for unhealthy PvP and generally all it takes is one of the 2 gate farmer factions to decide to turn for a keep the other thinks of as "theirs" and next thing you know, theres gate camping at another factions door step.

Agreed. Camping gates is just a *** move, people leave and then there's no one to fight. Let them keep a couple inner keeps and you can still have fun fights for the rest of the night. Hated when any faction did that, regardless of whether I was on the winning side or the losing one.

Satiar

More to the point of the thread, the simplest and easiest way to break any group is to throw more damage at them than they can handle and negate the *** out of them.

That’s pretty much it. I always prided myself on Tactics in this game but I definitely wiped my raid on more than one occasion by trying something fancy. If there’s a group terrorizing you at a keep or resource, your play is pretty simple:

1. Make an aggressive move, maybe waste one destro to make it look serious. Proxy up and look like you mean it.
2. Expect their counterbomb and use an immovable pot halfway through your push. Use that CC immunity to escape their bomb and scatter out so VD is useless.
3. The enemy raid WILL move together. So when avoiding their Bomb watch where they go, and if you’re not in their line of fire close into position.
4. Hit destros, 1-2 meteors or leaps, as many negates as you have. Bonus points if they were trying an attack retreat and you positioned yourself to hit them where they needed to go.
5. Profit


That’s basically it. If you can do this and replicate it enough you’ll find yourself doing what the top end guilds used to do: circling and gaming and faking because he who commits first loses 9 times out of 10.

But seriously. Front load your damage. There’s lots of little tips and tricks but this is basically how it’s done. CC game needs to be on point so ppl don’t just free run out of your bomb.

frozywozy

umagon wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

So what's your strategy for killing the 4-8 man heavy armor warden heal blobs that still deal insane AoE burst?

The best way to figure this out is to look at the opposing group as collective number wise. Many of those types of groups utilize builds that maximize damage output. And because of the way the game functions this means that they can simultaneously maximize healing output with the same build. So, the solution is to lower both their damage output and healing output. Once you get to a value where your group’s damage output can outpace their recovery capabilities then they can be defeated if they do not have any counter measures.

You want to look at strategies for keeping minor maim and major defile on the opposing group. With major defile, placing a full 100 points into the befoul champion points greatly enhances its effectiveness. It also lowers health regeneration and with the addition of champ points into siphoner the health regeneration is further reduced. Siphoner also eats up a debuff lot so it can help reduce chance of the major defile being cleansed.

One of the item sets that gets overlooked is Durok's Bane assuming it still functions the way it used to (I haven’t tested it a while) it triggers off aoe. And with champ points into befoul it will increase the defile effect as the effect on the set is major defile. The only problem is they moved this set to pve land and it binds on pickup.

Just remember, when in doubt math it out.

I disagree, this is the wrong approach. The way to handle healing and damage both scaling off weapon and spell damage is to create an independent healing stat.

frozywozy

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Considering groups like VE would normally be between 16-40 I think comparing the 2 in your previous comments is a little false.

technohic

Satiar wrote: »

More to the point of the thread, the simplest and easiest way to break any group is to throw more damage at them than they can handle and negate the *** out of them.

That’s pretty much it. I always prided myself on Tactics in this game but I definitely wiped my raid on more than one occasion by trying something fancy. If there’s a group terrorizing you at a keep or resource, your play is pretty simple:

1. Make an aggressive move, maybe waste one destro to make it look serious. Proxy up and look like you mean it.
2. Expect their counterbomb and use an immovable pot halfway through your push. Use that CC immunity to escape their bomb and scatter out so VD is useless.
3. The enemy raid WILL move together. So when avoiding their Bomb watch where they go, and if you’re not in their line of fire close into position.
4. Hit destros, 1-2 meteors or leaps, as many negates as you have. Bonus points if they were trying an attack retreat and you positioned yourself to hit them where they needed to go.
5. Profit


That’s basically it. If you can do this and replicate it enough you’ll find yourself doing what the top end guilds used to do: circling and gaming and faking because he who commits first loses 9 times out of 10.

But seriously. Front load your damage. There’s lots of little tips and tricks but this is basically how it’s done. CC game needs to be on point so ppl don’t just free run out of your bomb.

Last time I ran into Drac on Vivec harrassing DC; I think the tactic was pugs to just keep funneling toward them. Its really great when you walk into that with a bunch of them running near dead to deliver the Vicious Death damage to anyone in stealth. Seemed like that was THE tactic of the day, followed by call outs to all attack Sypher who was lurking around doing what he does. Of course this meant the pugs finally decided to all chase Sypher rather than keep lemminging in to Drac when they Drac went and actually took a keep, because siege defense with negates? pfft Who wants to do that? Lets go zerg the 1vxer streamer for our cameo

Good times.

umagon

frozywozy wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

So what's your strategy for killing the 4-8 man heavy armor warden heal blobs that still deal insane AoE burst?

The best way to figure this out is to look at the opposing group as collective number wise. Many of those types of groups utilize builds that maximize damage output. And because of the way the game functions this means that they can simultaneously maximize healing output with the same build. So, the solution is to lower both their damage output and healing output. Once you get to a value where your group’s damage output can outpace their recovery capabilities then they can be defeated if they do not have any counter measures.

You want to look at strategies for keeping minor maim and major defile on the opposing group. With major defile, placing a full 100 points into the befoul champion points greatly enhances its effectiveness. It also lowers health regeneration and with the addition of champ points into siphoner the health regeneration is further reduced. Siphoner also eats up a debuff lot so it can help reduce chance of the major defile being cleansed.

One of the item sets that gets overlooked is Durok's Bane assuming it still functions the way it used to (I haven’t tested it a while) it triggers off aoe. And with champ points into befoul it will increase the defile effect as the effect on the set is major defile. The only problem is they moved this set to pve land and it binds on pickup.

Just remember, when in doubt math it out.

I disagree, this is the wrong approach. The way to handle healing and damage both scaling off weapon and spell damage is to create an independent healing stat.

You are taking that statement completely out of context. The “solution” is based on how the game currently functions. The discussion is not about how the game should be changed to address that problem. But how to counter small groups with high amounts of healing and burst aoe damage.

zyk

VE is still the best Forum PVP guild PC/NA. Getting Frozn to ring for you isn't going to help. Sorry Drac.

frozywozy

zyk wrote: »

VE is still the best Forum PVP guild PC/NA. Getting Frozn to ring for you isn't going to help. Sorry Drac.

This isn't a Frozn or a Drac thing. Pretty much everyone in EP who have played this game for the past 2years have seen NPK + VE or BoD + VE form a 50men megazerg at Chalman mine for hours with meteors spamming endlessly. It was never their fault though, it was the fault of the enemy zerg stacking their whole faction to defend causing the lag.

VE mindset :

• Large numbers of unorganized pugs on the screen are the major cause of the lag.
• Not 2 organized 24men guilds synchronizing prox dets, heals, and damaging ults all together.

Big plays

Satiar

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

VE is still the best Forum PVP guild PC/NA. Getting Frozn to ring for you isn't going to help. Sorry Drac.

This isn't a Frozn or a Drac thing. Pretty much everyone in EP who have played this game for the past 2years have seen NPK + VE or BoD + VE form a 50men megazerg at Chalman mine for hours with meteors spamming endlessly.

It was never their fault though, it was the fault of the enemy zerg stacking their whole faction to defend causing the lag.

A Zerg formed? In eso ? By Chalman!?!

Someone fetch the salts before I faint.

frozywozy

delete

GrimJaw

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Teabag them. Constantly. Especially their group leader. Send them rage tells. Call them noobs, zerglings, whatever. DO NOT BREAK TOS DOING THIS. Be the irritating little bug they want so badly to squash.

Be wary of which special snowflake you t-bag. Zavus had a 3 day ban for bagging theodicious. And Fyaal still has the warning e-mail. LOL

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

VE is still the best Forum PVP guild PC/NA. Getting Frozn to ring for you isn't going to help. Sorry Drac.

This isn't a Frozn or a Drac thing. Pretty much everyone in EP who have played this game for the past 2years have seen NPK + VE or BoD + VE form a 50men megazerg at Chalman mine for hours with meteors spamming endlessly.

It was never their fault though, it was the fault of the enemy zerg stacking their whole faction to defend causing the lag.

Someone fetch the salts before I faint.

I think there's enough close by you should be fine

Joy_Division

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

VE is still the best Forum PVP guild PC/NA. Getting Frozn to ring for you isn't going to help. Sorry Drac.

This isn't a Frozn or a Drac thing. Pretty much everyone in EP who have played this game for the past 2years have seen NPK + VE or BoD + VE form a 50men megazerg at Chalman mine for hours with meteors spamming endlessly. It was never their fault though, it was the fault of the enemy zerg stacking their whole faction to defend causing the lag.

VE mindset :

Large numbers of unorganized pugs on the screen are the major cause of the lag.

Not 2 organized 24men guilds synchronizing prox dets, heals, and damaging ults all together.

Why don't you roll a DC or AD toon and take a look at what your faction does? Should I post those screenshots of your guild at one of the numerous 60+ EP faction stacks at Aleswell Farm? .

What was once an informative thread has been completely derailed because people have to protect their egos by accusing everyone else of crap they'd love to believe they are Innocent of.

frozywozy

Joy_Division wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

VE is still the best Forum PVP guild PC/NA. Getting Frozn to ring for you isn't going to help. Sorry Drac.

This isn't a Frozn or a Drac thing. Pretty much everyone in EP who have played this game for the past 2years have seen NPK + VE or BoD + VE form a 50men megazerg at Chalman mine for hours with meteors spamming endlessly. It was never their fault though, it was the fault of the enemy zerg stacking their whole faction to defend causing the lag.

VE mindset :

Large numbers of unorganized pugs on the screen are the major cause of the lag.

Not 2 organized 24men guilds synchronizing prox dets, heals, and damaging ults all together.

Why don't you roll a DC or AD toon and take a look at what your faction does? Should I post those screenshots of your guild at one of the numerous 60+ EP faction stacks at Aleswell Farm? .

What was once an informative thread has been completely derailed because people have to protect their egos by accusing everyone else of crap they'd love to believe they are Innocent of.

I have zerged surfed hundred and hundred of times, there is no shame in that. But I never ran in a 24men elite ballgroup stacking on top of another 24men ballgroup. Why? Because I still believe today that the server ressources / poor performances cannot support such gameplay.

I would put 1k US dollars on this that if you put the following people in one max pop server at a specific location, results would be much different in performances :

• Two enemy groups of 50 disorganized pugs fighting each other in the same area
• Two enemy groups made of 2x 24men ballgroups each fighting each other in the same area

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

VE is still the best Forum PVP guild PC/NA. Getting Frozn to ring for you isn't going to help. Sorry Drac.

This isn't a Frozn or a Drac thing. Pretty much everyone in EP who have played this game for the past 2years have seen NPK + VE or BoD + VE form a 50men megazerg at Chalman mine for hours with meteors spamming endlessly. It was never their fault though, it was the fault of the enemy zerg stacking their whole faction to defend causing the lag.

VE mindset :

Large numbers of unorganized pugs on the screen are the major cause of the lag.

Not 2 organized 24men guilds synchronizing prox dets, heals, and damaging ults all together.

Why don't you roll a DC or AD toon and take a look at what your faction does? Should I post those screenshots of your guild at one of the numerous 60+ EP faction stacks at Aleswell Farm? .

What was once an informative thread has been completely derailed because people have to protect their egos by accusing everyone else of crap they'd love to believe they are Innocent of.

This thread was made for website promotion and guide feedback. Both criteria have been fulfilled.

Vilestride

Forum PvP is 10x more competitive than actual PvP these days.

GrimJaw

Vilestride wrote: »

Forum PvP is 10x more competitive than actual PvP these days.

have you even seen the RP PVP by riften bank? No one can beat Zatani! Shes the champ!

Recremen

GrimJaw wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Teabag them. Constantly. Especially their group leader. Send them rage tells. Call them noobs, zerglings, whatever. DO NOT BREAK TOS DOING THIS. Be the irritating little bug they want so badly to squash.

Be wary of which special snowflake you t-bag. Zavus had a 3 day ban for bagging theodicious. And Fyaal still has the warning e-mail. LOL

Didn't know that was a reportable offense, will be sure to use that. Thanks!

GrimJaw

Recremen wrote: »

GrimJaw wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Teabag them. Constantly. Especially their group leader. Send them rage tells. Call them noobs, zerglings, whatever. DO NOT BREAK TOS DOING THIS. Be the irritating little bug they want so badly to squash.

Be wary of which special snowflake you t-bag. Zavus had a 3 day ban for bagging theodicious. And Fyaal still has the warning e-mail. LOL

Didn't know that was a reportable offense, will be sure to use that. Thanks!

yeah, i mean, it probably took him a year to get him banned. I bet they were just tired of this guys useless tickets taking up real issues. If you want to be that guy too.....

Crown

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This thread was made for website promotion and guide feedback. Both criteria have been fulfilled.

Yup, though less on the promotion side. The site isn't monetised and there are no adds. It's just there to try and help the masses. I've updated the guide(s) a few times and haven't gotten any feedback on the new revision(s) though. The original content is now split between the four separate sections (offense/defence/siege/ballgroups).

Minno

Crown wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This thread was made for website promotion and guide feedback. Both criteria have been fulfilled.

Yup, though less on the promotion side. The site isn't monetised and there are no adds. It's just there to try and help the masses. I've updated the guide(s) a few times and haven't gotten any feedback on the new revision(s) though. The original content is now split between the four separate sections (offense/defence/siege/ballgroups).

I think you may need to add a new section on how to farm forum-salt, after seeing how the thread de-railed lol.

Recremen

GrimJaw wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

GrimJaw wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Teabag them. Constantly. Especially their group leader. Send them rage tells. Call them noobs, zerglings, whatever. DO NOT BREAK TOS DOING THIS. Be the irritating little bug they want so badly to squash.

Be wary of which special snowflake you t-bag. Zavus had a 3 day ban for bagging theodicious. And Fyaal still has the warning e-mail. LOL

Didn't know that was a reportable offense, will be sure to use that. Thanks!

yeah, i mean, it probably took him a year to get him banned. I bet they were just tired of this guys useless tickets taking up real issues. If you want to be that guy too.....

I do. Teabagging is frankly heinous. We should unironically just kill each other in peace and not bring that kind of perverse sexual angle into it. This game is advertised as containing simulated combat, not simulated sexual assault, that's something that certain gross players brought in.

Vilestride

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This thread was made for website promotion and guide feedback. Both criteria have been fulfilled.

Yup, though less on the promotion side. The site isn't monetised and there are no adds. It's just there to try and help the masses. I've updated the guide(s) a few times and haven't gotten any feedback on the new revision(s) though. The original content is now split between the four separate sections (offense/defence/siege/ballgroups).

I think you may need to add a new section on how to farm forum-salt, after seeing how the thread de-railed lol.

I dunno. Seems pretty straight forward. Just use the words dracarys and vehemence in the same sentence.

Rickter

The shadow of Moderator power looms ever greater. . .

Elong

Vilestride wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This thread was made for website promotion and guide feedback. Both criteria have been fulfilled.

Yup, though less on the promotion side. The site isn't monetised and there are no adds. It's just there to try and help the masses. I've updated the guide(s) a few times and haven't gotten any feedback on the new revision(s) though. The original content is now split between the four separate sections (offense/defence/siege/ballgroups).

I think you may need to add a new section on how to farm forum-salt, after seeing how the thread de-railed lol.

I dunno. Seems pretty straight forward. Just use the words dracarys and vehemence in the same sentence.

Tell VE they run 37 players and watch 37 forum posts appear haha.

Ellwin

Elong wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This thread was made for website promotion and guide feedback. Both criteria have been fulfilled.

Yup, though less on the promotion side. The site isn't monetised and there are no adds. It's just there to try and help the masses. I've updated the guide(s) a few times and haven't gotten any feedback on the new revision(s) though. The original content is now split between the four separate sections (offense/defence/siege/ballgroups).

I think you may need to add a new section on how to farm forum-salt, after seeing how the thread de-railed lol.

I dunno. Seems pretty straight forward. Just use the words dracarys and vehemence in the same sentence.

Tell VE they run 37 players and watch 37 forum posts appear haha.

omg hahahaha

Ellwin

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO @Vilestride @PenguinInACan The observation of two waves of destros from you guys is accurate then, and thanks for the clarifications. You do the same as I/we have in the past few larger guilds that I've run with - as expected.

@Sanct16 Being as my goal is to help the less education/experienced/organised folks out there, regardless of the why or the techniques in calling things, telling them to expect multiple waves of destros a few seconds apart makes sense. It's what I do when I have a large enough group, what most of the other leaders that I'm friendly with have confirmed that they do - or did, and now we've confirmed that Drac does it too.

I belive Penguin is speaking from TM?

On behalf of Drac (it's generally me leading) our tactics are variable based on what we fight. The situations you mention from yesterday are pug fights which your group just happened to be included in amongst the other pugs I.e. sustained dps is important hence wave based destro's.

When I pushed your group in BRK (After faking out your bomb on the breach) we used 2 storms because you were about 1/2 our size and that's what I expected to be enough to kill you and based on the number of pugs present (almost none ep can't count when shouting in zone) there wasn't an immediate threat so could afford to use 2/3 even though we wouldn't get them back from the kills.

I will also say.
1. Personally I wouldn't say our group is large in most situations we face. We run from 6-16 and our tactics work perfectly at any size within this range with of course scaling based on enemy size faced and expectation. Considering groups like VE would normally be between 16-40 I think comparing the 2 in your previous comments is a little false.
2. If you are making a guide to specifically counter groups like ours 2 waves of destro's isn't gnna hurt us unless you outnumber us.
3. I would rather you encouraged more groups to form and actually compete rather than encouraging pug surfing and sieging. This way gvg type fights where the emphasis isn't actually on destro would be entertaining and enjoyable.
4. Calling groups like ours Proxy/Destro tanks is not correct. We run 0 tanks and also have 0 tank abilities like guard etc. Our survivability come from superior movement and coordination.

Groups like VE ran 16-40 whaaaaaaaaat? That’s a revelation.

You do carry on a fine old tradition of EP groups vastly overestimating the numbers of anyone who kills them.

So your saying your standard group sizes didn't range between these 2 values?

I’m saying our groups ranged between 2 and 24. As they always did. Since we started as a guild, until the day we retired.

It's well known that players such as Zheg would run a secondary pug group side by side with you guys on occasion.

I don't care for this argument at all, it's been done to death, but just throwing it out there.

we witnessed this a few times and when asked, VE members described it as the "waiting for raid spot, pickup group"

Satiar

Ellwin wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO @Vilestride @PenguinInACan The observation of two waves of destros from you guys is accurate then, and thanks for the clarifications. You do the same as I/we have in the past few larger guilds that I've run with - as expected.

@Sanct16 Being as my goal is to help the less education/experienced/organised folks out there, regardless of the why or the techniques in calling things, telling them to expect multiple waves of destros a few seconds apart makes sense. It's what I do when I have a large enough group, what most of the other leaders that I'm friendly with have confirmed that they do - or did, and now we've confirmed that Drac does it too.

I belive Penguin is speaking from TM?

On behalf of Drac (it's generally me leading) our tactics are variable based on what we fight. The situations you mention from yesterday are pug fights which your group just happened to be included in amongst the other pugs I.e. sustained dps is important hence wave based destro's.

When I pushed your group in BRK (After faking out your bomb on the breach) we used 2 storms because you were about 1/2 our size and that's what I expected to be enough to kill you and based on the number of pugs present (almost none ep can't count when shouting in zone) there wasn't an immediate threat so could afford to use 2/3 even though we wouldn't get them back from the kills.

I will also say.
1. Personally I wouldn't say our group is large in most situations we face. We run from 6-16 and our tactics work perfectly at any size within this range with of course scaling based on enemy size faced and expectation. Considering groups like VE would normally be between 16-40 I think comparing the 2 in your previous comments is a little false.
2. If you are making a guide to specifically counter groups like ours 2 waves of destro's isn't gnna hurt us unless you outnumber us.
3. I would rather you encouraged more groups to form and actually compete rather than encouraging pug surfing and sieging. This way gvg type fights where the emphasis isn't actually on destro would be entertaining and enjoyable.
4. Calling groups like ours Proxy/Destro tanks is not correct. We run 0 tanks and also have 0 tank abilities like guard etc. Our survivability come from superior movement and coordination.

Groups like VE ran 16-40 whaaaaaaaaat? That’s a revelation.

You do carry on a fine old tradition of EP groups vastly overestimating the numbers of anyone who kills them.

So your saying your standard group sizes didn't range between these 2 values?

I’m saying our groups ranged between 2 and 24. As they always did. Since we started as a guild, until the day we retired.

It's well known that players such as Zheg would run a secondary pug group side by side with you guys on occasion.

I don't care for this argument at all, it's been done to death, but just throwing it out there.

we witnessed this a few times and when asked, VE members described it as the "waiting for raid spot, pickup group"

Except it never happened.

There’s only so many ways I can say it, the answer remains consistent for the last few years.

Like, we never even liked th idea! We wanted to keep talent condensed in one group, not split up and diluted

IxSTALKERxI

Rickter wrote: »

ZOS Moderators: Please do not close this thread, it has a lot of good information for any pvper new or vet. Forgive them for they know not what they do

I agree. Plus I also just finished heating up some popcorn.

Satiar

Vilestride wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

This thread was made for website promotion and guide feedback. Both criteria have been fulfilled.

Yup, though less on the promotion side. The site isn't monetised and there are no adds. It's just there to try and help the masses. I've updated the guide(s) a few times and haven't gotten any feedback on the new revision(s) though. The original content is now split between the four separate sections (offense/defence/siege/ballgroups).

I think you may need to add a new section on how to farm forum-salt, after seeing how the thread de-railed lol.

I dunno. Seems pretty straight forward. Just use the words dracarys and vehemence in the same sentence.

It used to be VE and Haxus lol. Good times

Praise akatosh we didn’t go with bulbs first guild name preference