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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A
-
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The addon is no different to ones that exist in almost every other MMO. Casting alert addons are pretty standard stuff, just like debuff, cooldown, diminishing return timers, dps meters, resource nodes maps, and boss alerts/timers.
If the "it's cheating" crowd were serious they would insist on a completely addon free play experience, as anything that gives the player information they dont directly see and track for themselves is "cheating".
Is it standard in other MMOs that addons show what invisible opponents are doing while "invisible"?
Also, how many of those MMOs have active spammable evasion mechanics to avoid those cast time abilities?
Oh, and it seems almost half the player base would rather disable all addons in PvP than suffer from Miat's:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376334/would-you-like-add-ons-disabled-for-pvp/p1
Since when forum polls with 150 people voting are analogue to whole player base opinion ? It's not how probe is working.
With 150 sample size the margin of error is 8%.
Because ? I mean what do You know about people who voted ?
I don't, and that's a good thing. Otherwise there'd be polling bias and you could accuse the pollster of handpicking a favourable demographic.How do You know it was representative sample ? How do You know half of them wasnt console players or players who dont even know what term "add-on" means ?
Well, only people who have played/still play ESO have forum access to vote on these polls. It doesn't matter how (or why) console players vote, the poll wasn't asking PC players only.
Imagine if ZOS were to add addons to console as well some day - they do have a stake in this as well.What do You know about this people experience with add-ons ? How much of this people is actually using them ?
I don't know that, nor am I supposed to. Again, polling needs to be random in order to avoid bias.Also since it's open voting how can You know someone didnt asked firends to vote same as him ? I am not agaisnt results of this voting but lets be honest it's far from beeing reliable to the point it can mirror whole player base.
That's why you apply margin of error - to make it more reliable.
With 150 sample size you get it down to 8% margin of error with 95% confidence (5% chance it's wrong). With 99% confidence level you'd have a margin of error of 11% with that sample size.
Maths can sometimes seem like magic - truly fascinating the things you can do with it
Sidenote: sorry if I derailed the thread a bit, I just like explaining these things.
P.S. I voted "other" on that poll myself, I don't want to see all the nice, non-exploitative addons gone because of one bad apple
Great explanations, math is awesome.1 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ZOS "approves" for exactly the same reason they approve of animation cancelling. Sure, it's obviously broken, and not how the game was designed to be played, but fixing this stuff would require WORK man, and their skeleton crew is too busy with next year's expansion and all the Crown Crates. Most of the people who worked on the engine and might be able to fix this stuff were let go years ago.7 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The addon is no different to ones that exist in almost every other MMO. Casting alert addons are pretty standard stuff, just like debuff, cooldown, diminishing return timers, dps meters, resource nodes maps, and boss alerts/timers.
If the "it's cheating" crowd were serious they would insist on a completely addon free play experience, as anything that gives the player information they dont directly see and track for themselves is "cheating".
Is it standard in other MMOs that addons show what invisible opponents are doing while "invisible"?
Also, how many of those MMOs have active spammable evasion mechanics to avoid those cast time abilities?
Oh, and it seems almost half the player base would rather disable all addons in PvP than suffer from Miat's:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376334/would-you-like-add-ons-disabled-for-pvp/p1
Since when forum polls with 150 people voting are analogue to whole player base opinion ? It's not how probe is working.
Well, ZoS could do an official survey and ask all eso plus members about it ( i say eso plus because free accounts could be bot accounts ) and I am sure the numbers would look the same considering everyone in zone in cyro considers that part of the addon cancer.4 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And people don't ask to do that 'again'. No new features were added. People were happy with the result last time.
Personally i think your mistaken here. From the recent poll that is showing heavily players want your addon gone, the view from DDukes last post which had 9,200 views and now this post, which from me reading it shows a majority saying they would rather it gone.
ZoS doesn't seem to want to comment here, for whatever reason. I vote with my wallet and have un-subbed/not buying crowns for various reasons including this one.
Setting aside the bias of all these metrics, i have a question.
We have some number of people not liking some UI feature of an addon. But these people obviously struggle to formulate what is their problem with it. Up to the degree that they rather affectionately (and aggressively) claim that 'it's obvious' and 'it's shouldn't be in the game'. As i said before i find this attitude quite peculiar. Almost absolute lack of rational justification.
Build diversity argument is wrong. People used ganking builds with great success even before ZOS disabled heavy attacks from stealth for the UI. The only reason why currently ganking became less widespread are nerfs to damage from stealth (and movement speed stacking in stealth).
Crutch argument (without even being an argument) is wrong, because it can be easily shown that any UI feature is a 'crutch' in the same sense. So it's either the whole ui in its entirety is a 'crutch' or nothing is.
What is left is just 'this shouldn't be a thing'. I understand gankers personal problems. They hope to be able to make a build that kills people without any retaliation and thus the lower their skill level is the more they rely on cheesy mechanics like an ability to charge up a heavy hitter on an unaware target.
But i doubt that all the people complaining are these gankers? Are they?
So if somebody doesn't look for an easy no-brainer kill, if he respects the target enough to allow it a chance to react to his attack, but at the same time have problems with the addon, i'd appreciate to hear his reasoning as to why this addon is a problem for him.
Thank you!
LOL. Yeah because having an addon that let’s you perfectly dodge a large number of incoming attacks is the same as a health bar. Gtfo.7 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
The arguments are becoming more and more ridiculous. At this point it's nothing more than a fish flailing on land, desperately fighting for its life, until it will finally be suffocated. Quite amuzing to watch.And people don't ask to do that 'again'. No new features were added. People were happy with the result last time.
Personally i think your mistaken here. From the recent poll that is showing heavily players want your addon gone, the view from DDukes last post which had 9,200 views and now this post, which from me reading it shows a majority saying they would rather it gone.
ZoS doesn't seem to want to comment here, for whatever reason. I vote with my wallet and have un-subbed/not buying crowns for various reasons including this one.
Setting aside the bias of all these metrics, i have a question.
We have some number of people not liking some UI feature of an addon. But these people obviously struggle to formulate what is their problem with it. Up to the degree that they rather affectionately (and aggressively) claim that 'it's obvious' and 'it's shouldn't be in the game'. As i said before i find this attitude quite peculiar. Almost absolute lack of rational justification.
Build diversity argument is wrong. People used ganking builds with great success even before ZOS disabled heavy attacks from stealth for the UI. The only reason why currently ganking became less widespread are nerfs to damage from stealth (and movement speed stacking in stealth).
Crutch argument (without even being an argument) is wrong, because it can be easily shown that any UI feature is a 'crutch' in the same sense. So it's either the whole ui in its entirety is a 'crutch' or nothing is.
What is left is just 'this shouldn't be a thing'. I understand gankers personal problems. They hope to be able to make a build that kills people without any retaliation and thus the lower their skill level is the more they rely on cheesy mechanics like an ability to charge up a heavy hitter on an unaware target.
But i doubt that all the people complaining are these gankers? Are they?
So if somebody doesn't look for an easy no-brainer kill, if he respects the target enough to allow it a chance to react to his attack, but at the same time have problems with the addon, i'd appreciate to hear his reasoning as to why this addon is a problem for him.
Thank you!
LOL. Yeah because having an addon that let’s you perfectly dodge a large number of incoming attacks is the same as a health bar. Gtfo.
2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
The arguments are becoming more and more ridiculous. At this point it's nothing more than a fish flailing on land, desperately fighting for its life, until it will finally be suffocated. Quite amuzing to watch.And people don't ask to do that 'again'. No new features were added. People were happy with the result last time.
Personally i think your mistaken here. From the recent poll that is showing heavily players want your addon gone, the view from DDukes last post which had 9,200 views and now this post, which from me reading it shows a majority saying they would rather it gone.
ZoS doesn't seem to want to comment here, for whatever reason. I vote with my wallet and have un-subbed/not buying crowns for various reasons including this one.
Setting aside the bias of all these metrics, i have a question.
We have some number of people not liking some UI feature of an addon. But these people obviously struggle to formulate what is their problem with it. Up to the degree that they rather affectionately (and aggressively) claim that 'it's obvious' and 'it's shouldn't be in the game'. As i said before i find this attitude quite peculiar. Almost absolute lack of rational justification.
Build diversity argument is wrong. People used ganking builds with great success even before ZOS disabled heavy attacks from stealth for the UI. The only reason why currently ganking became less widespread are nerfs to damage from stealth (and movement speed stacking in stealth).
Crutch argument (without even being an argument) is wrong, because it can be easily shown that any UI feature is a 'crutch' in the same sense. So it's either the whole ui in its entirety is a 'crutch' or nothing is.
What is left is just 'this shouldn't be a thing'. I understand gankers personal problems. They hope to be able to make a build that kills people without any retaliation and thus the lower their skill level is the more they rely on cheesy mechanics like an ability to charge up a heavy hitter on an unaware target.
But i doubt that all the people complaining are these gankers? Are they?
So if somebody doesn't look for an easy no-brainer kill, if he respects the target enough to allow it a chance to react to his attack, but at the same time have problems with the addon, i'd appreciate to hear his reasoning as to why this addon is a problem for him.
Thank you!
LOL. Yeah because having an addon that let’s you perfectly dodge a large number of incoming attacks is the same as a health bar. Gtfo.
3 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The addon is no different to ones that exist in almost every other MMO. Casting alert addons are pretty standard stuff, just like debuff, cooldown, diminishing return timers, dps meters, resource nodes maps, and boss alerts/timers.
If the "it's cheating" crowd were serious they would insist on a completely addon free play experience, as anything that gives the player information they dont directly see and track for themselves is "cheating".
Is it standard in other MMOs that addons show what invisible opponents are doing while "invisible"?
Also, how many of those MMOs have active spammable evasion mechanics to avoid those cast time abilities?
Oh, and it seems almost half the player base would rather disable all addons in PvP than suffer from Miat's:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376334/would-you-like-add-ons-disabled-for-pvp/p1
Since when forum polls with 150 people voting are analogue to whole player base opinion ? It's not how probe is working.
With 150 sample size the margin of error is 8%.
Because ? I mean what do You know about people who voted ?
I don't, and that's a good thing. Otherwise there'd be polling bias and you could accuse the pollster of handpicking a favourable demographic.How do You know it was representative sample ? How do You know half of them wasnt console players or players who dont even know what term "add-on" means ?
Well, only people who have played/still play ESO have forum access to vote on these polls. It doesn't matter how (or why) console players vote, the poll wasn't asking PC players only.
Imagine if ZOS were to add addons to console as well some day - they do have a stake in this as well.What do You know about this people experience with add-ons ? How much of this people is actually using them ?
I don't know that, nor am I supposed to. Again, polling needs to be random in order to avoid bias.Also since it's open voting how can You know someone didnt asked firends to vote same as him ? I am not agaisnt results of this voting but lets be honest it's far from beeing reliable to the point it can mirror whole player base.
That's why you apply margin of error - to make it more reliable.
With 150 sample size you get it down to 8% margin of error with 95% confidence (5% chance it's wrong). With 99% confidence level you'd have a margin of error of 11% with that sample size.
Maths can sometimes seem like magic - truly fascinating the things you can do with it
Sidenote: sorry if I derailed the thread a bit, I just like explaining these things.
P.S. I voted "other" on that poll myself, I don't want to see all the nice, non-exploitative addons gone because of one bad apple
Nice explanation which...doesnt explain anything. You didnt explained why it is 8% and also provided nonsense arguments...I don't, and that's a good thing. Otherwise there'd be polling bias and you could accuse the pollster of handpicking a favourable demographic.
You can still accuse poll of beeing biased just because You dont know is this group of people representative or not. It can have 90% of 1 demographic model and 10% of 2nd one which also makes poll biased.Well, only people who have played/still play ESO have forum access to vote on these polls. It doesn't matter how (or why) console players vote, the poll wasn't asking PC players only.
Imagine if ZOS were to add addons to console as well some day - they do have a stake in this as well.
That's not even full answer on my quiestion. You may not know but there is group of people who barely or even dont play anyomore in the game but participate in forum more then regular players and many of them dont even fully know what Miat is. Imo it does matter how consoile players vote because they're voting on things that they're not affected with it's like people under 18 y.o voting for president. Fact that some day add ons can come on consoles doesnt change anything sonce poll is about current not future state of game. When kids get in age they can vote for president before that their vote is meaningless and noone cares they'll reach maturity in few months.I don't know that, nor am I supposed to. Again, polling needs to be random in order to avoid bias.
Polling also has to be made on representative group of people otherwise it's biased. We dont even know is half of the people know what Miat add-on is.That's why you apply margin of error - to make it more reliable.
With 150 sample size you get it down to 8% margin of error with 95% confidence (5% chance it's wrong). With 99% confidence level you'd have a margin of error of 11% with that sample size.
Math please. Math considering we dont kno anything of people voting and we take under consideration fact most of them may even not know what Miat is because I think Your math is based on voting where You are 100% sure asked people knows what the question is about and I've been on this forum too long to be sure of that.
Edited by Juhasow on October 22, 2017 11:57AM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nice explanation which...doesnt explain anything. You didnt explained why it is 8% and also provided nonsense arguments...
It's 8% because I wanted a 95% confidence level. More on this below.I don't, and that's a good thing. Otherwise there'd be polling bias and you could accuse the pollster of handpicking a favourable demographic.
You can still accuse poll of beeing biased just because You dont know is this group of people representative or not. It can have 90% of 1 demographic model and 10% of 2nd one which also makes poll biased.
Why don't you prove that, if you think that's somehow (I don't see how it'd even be possible) the case? Forums are open to everyone playing this game, everywhere. The question in the poll isn't biased, the pollster neutral. What makes it biased? Which specific "demographic models" are you referring to?Well, only people who have played/still play ESO have forum access to vote on these polls. It doesn't matter how (or why) console players vote, the poll wasn't asking PC players only.
Imagine if ZOS were to add addons to console as well some day - they do have a stake in this as well.
That's not even full answer on my quiestion. You may not know but there is group of people who barely or even dont play anyomore in the game but participate in forum more then regular players and many of them dont even fully know what Miat is.
So? This particular poll you linked is about whether people want addons disabled for PvP or not. What kind of knowledge people have about different addons is irrelevant.
The list of things people have voted for without being aware of all the facts is a long & painful read, but let's not turn this into a politics discussion.Imo it does matter how consoile players vote because they're voting on things that they're not affected with it's like people under 18 y.o voting for president. Fact that some day add ons can come on consoles doesnt change anything sonce poll is about current not future state of game. When kids get in age they can vote for president before that their vote is meaningless and noone cares they'll reach maturity in few months.
Well that's one arrogant statement.
Console players aren't "children" (well, some of them are...) - there's no comparison to be made there.
What your argument entails is voter suppression.
If you want a better analogy, try this:
You have planet Earth (ESO)
You have deadly disease (Miat's) ravaging the population in Country A (PC)
In country B (consoles), people are asked if they want that deadly disease.I don't know that, nor am I supposed to. Again, polling needs to be random in order to avoid bias.
Polling also has to be made on representative group of people otherwise it's biased. We dont even know is half of the people know what Miat add-on is.
Again, does it matter if some people don't know what Miat addon is? If anything, that should make less people vote for total addon ban as the poll you linked advocates.
I could say the same "half the people didn't know who/what they voted for" about 99% of world problems, but that'd be the very bias these polls are trying to avoid.That's why you apply margin of error - to make it more reliable.
With 150 sample size you get it down to 8% margin of error with 95% confidence (5% chance it's wrong). With 99% confidence level you'd have a margin of error of 11% with that sample size.
Math please. Math considering we dont kno anything of people voting and we take under consideration fact most of them may even not know what Miat is because I think Your math is based on voting where You are 100% sure asked people knows what the question is about and I've been on this forum too long to be sure of that.
z=desired confidence level
p=sample proportion (can be left infinite)
n=sample size
Confidence levels:
95%=1.96
98%=2.33
99%=2.58
The same method is used by all election polls etc out there which ask a couple hundred or thousand random people (out of millions) for their opinions, and then with margin of error come up with an accurate (within the desired confidence level) range that represents the whole population.Edited by DDuke on October 22, 2017 12:51PM5 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nice explanation which...doesnt explain anything. You didnt explained why it is 8% and also provided nonsense arguments...
It's 8% because I wanted a 95% confidence level. More on this below.I don't, and that's a good thing. Otherwise there'd be polling bias and you could accuse the pollster of handpicking a favourable demographic.
You can still accuse poll of beeing biased just because You dont know is this group of people representative or not. It can have 90% of 1 demographic model and 10% of 2nd one which also makes poll biased.
Why don't you prove that, if you think that's somehow (I don't see how it'd even be possible) the case? Forums are open to everyone playing this game, everywhere. The question in the poll isn't biased, the pollster neutral. What makes it biased? Which specific "demographic models" are you referring to?Well, only people who have played/still play ESO have forum access to vote on these polls. It doesn't matter how (or why) console players vote, the poll wasn't asking PC players only.
Imagine if ZOS were to add addons to console as well some day - they do have a stake in this as well.
That's not even full answer on my quiestion. You may not know but there is group of people who barely or even dont play anyomore in the game but participate in forum more then regular players and many of them dont even fully know what Miat is.
So? This particular poll you linked is about whether people want addons disabled for PvP or not. What kind of knowledge people have about different addons is irrelevant.
The list of things people have voted for without being aware of all the facts is a long & painful read, but let's not turn this into a politics discussion.Imo it does matter how consoile players vote because they're voting on things that they're not affected with it's like people under 18 y.o voting for president. Fact that some day add ons can come on consoles doesnt change anything sonce poll is about current not future state of game. When kids get in age they can vote for president before that their vote is meaningless and noone cares they'll reach maturity in few months.
Well that's one arrogant statement.
Console players aren't "children" (well, some of them are...) - there's no comparison to be made there.
What your argument entails is voter suppression.
If you want a better analogy, try this:
You have planet Earth (ESO)
You have deadly disease (Miat's) ravaging the population in Country A (PC)
In country B (consoles), people are asked if they want that deadly disease.I don't know that, nor am I supposed to. Again, polling needs to be random in order to avoid bias.
Polling also has to be made on representative group of people otherwise it's biased. We dont even know is half of the people know what Miat add-on is.
Again, does it matter if some people don't know what Miat addon is? If anything, that should make less people vote for total addon ban as the poll you linked advocates.
I could say the same "half the people didn't know who/what they voted for" about 99% of world problems, but that'd be the very bias these polls are trying to avoid.That's why you apply margin of error - to make it more reliable.
With 150 sample size you get it down to 8% margin of error with 95% confidence (5% chance it's wrong). With 99% confidence level you'd have a margin of error of 11% with that sample size.
Math please. Math considering we dont kno anything of people voting and we take under consideration fact most of them may even not know what Miat is because I think Your math is based on voting where You are 100% sure asked people knows what the question is about and I've been on this forum too long to be sure of that.
z=desired confidence level
p=sample proportion (can be left infinite)
n=sample size
Confidence levels:
95%=1.96
98%=2.33
99%=2.58
The same method is used by all election polls etc out there which ask a couple hundred or thousand random people (out of millions) for their opinions, and then with margin of error come up with an accurate (within the desired confidence level) range that represents the whole population.
Everything You're saying sounds nice but what if I would tell You now I bringed 20 guildmates to vote same as me in this poll ? Which means 13% of people who voted are faked. What is margin of error now ? Formula You posted can be nice but not for polls like this one You linked.Edited by Juhasow on October 22, 2017 12:56PM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nice explanation which...doesnt explain anything. You didnt explained why it is 8% and also provided nonsense arguments...
It's 8% because I wanted a 95% confidence level. More on this below.I don't, and that's a good thing. Otherwise there'd be polling bias and you could accuse the pollster of handpicking a favourable demographic.
You can still accuse poll of beeing biased just because You dont know is this group of people representative or not. It can have 90% of 1 demographic model and 10% of 2nd one which also makes poll biased.
Why don't you prove that, if you think that's somehow (I don't see how it'd even be possible) the case? Forums are open to everyone playing this game, everywhere. The question in the poll isn't biased, the pollster neutral. What makes it biased? Which specific "demographic models" are you referring to?Well, only people who have played/still play ESO have forum access to vote on these polls. It doesn't matter how (or why) console players vote, the poll wasn't asking PC players only.
Imagine if ZOS were to add addons to console as well some day - they do have a stake in this as well.
That's not even full answer on my quiestion. You may not know but there is group of people who barely or even dont play anyomore in the game but participate in forum more then regular players and many of them dont even fully know what Miat is.
So? This particular poll you linked is about whether people want addons disabled for PvP or not. What kind of knowledge people have about different addons is irrelevant.
The list of things people have voted for without being aware of all the facts is a long & painful read, but let's not turn this into a politics discussion.Imo it does matter how consoile players vote because they're voting on things that they're not affected with it's like people under 18 y.o voting for president. Fact that some day add ons can come on consoles doesnt change anything sonce poll is about current not future state of game. When kids get in age they can vote for president before that their vote is meaningless and noone cares they'll reach maturity in few months.
Well that's one arrogant statement.
Console players aren't "children" (well, some of them are...) - there's no comparison to be made there.
What your argument entails is voter suppression.
If you want a better analogy, try this:
You have planet Earth (ESO)
You have deadly disease (Miat's) ravaging the population in Country A (PC)
In country B (consoles), people are asked if they want that deadly disease.I don't know that, nor am I supposed to. Again, polling needs to be random in order to avoid bias.
Polling also has to be made on representative group of people otherwise it's biased. We dont even know is half of the people know what Miat add-on is.
Again, does it matter if some people don't know what Miat addon is? If anything, that should make less people vote for total addon ban as the poll you linked advocates.
I could say the same "half the people didn't know who/what they voted for" about 99% of world problems, but that'd be the very bias these polls are trying to avoid.That's why you apply margin of error - to make it more reliable.
With 150 sample size you get it down to 8% margin of error with 95% confidence (5% chance it's wrong). With 99% confidence level you'd have a margin of error of 11% with that sample size.
Math please. Math considering we dont kno anything of people voting and we take under consideration fact most of them may even not know what Miat is because I think Your math is based on voting where You are 100% sure asked people knows what the question is about and I've been on this forum too long to be sure of that.
z=desired confidence level
p=sample proportion (can be left infinite)
n=sample size
Confidence levels:
95%=1.96
98%=2.33
99%=2.58
The same method is used by all election polls etc out there which ask a couple hundred or thousand random people (out of millions) for their opinions, and then with margin of error come up with an accurate (within the desired confidence level) range that represents the whole population.
Everything You're saying sounds nice but what if I would tell You now I bringed 20 guildmates to vote same as me in this poll ? Which means 13% of people who voted are faked. What is margin of error now ?
The margin of error at 170 votes would be 7.52%.
The poll currently has 150 votes (8% margin of error) & says 48% for "No. Keep Add-Ons. (Explain)" with 72 votes - 92 votes for "No. Keep Add-Ons. (Explain)" would mean 54% of people voted to keep them, which is well within the 8% margin of error.
Outside some major interference margin of error is applicable & accurate - but the confidence level isn't 100% for a reason.Edited by DDuke on October 22, 2017 1:05PM2 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To me personally its not even the stealth protection that makes this addon feel too much, its the screming message when youre about to get cc`d what makes it infuriating. Was fighting around Ales the other day on my magnb, and i saw a magsorc with no shields on i was in sneak so i launched a quick heavy destro/destructive reach combo, needless to say the sorc had his shields up before i even finished the heavy attack animaton, and then thru our fight continuted to block every single fiery reach, before the animation even displayed. And no i wasnt lagging it was clear that he had this addon telling him when to block my cc.
Very skillful gameplay, very frustrating to play aganist. You can feel like an absolute champ using this addon when in reality your just getting your hand held. Do i think its cheating? No, sadly its part of the API, does it make it right? HELL NO3 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To me personally its not even the stealth protection that makes this addon feel too much, its the screming message when youre about to get cc`d what makes it infuriating. Was fighting around Ales the other day on my magnb, and i saw a magsorc with no shields on i was in sneak so i launched a quick heavy destro/destructive reach combo, needless to say the sorc had his shields up before i even finished the heavy attack animaton, and then thru our fight continuted to block every single fiery reach, before the animation even displayed. And no i wasnt lagging it was clear that he had this addon telling him when to block my cc.
Very skillful gameplay, very frustrating to play aganist. You can feel like an absolute champ using this addon when in reality your just getting your hand held. Do i think its cheating? No, sadly its part of the API, does it make it right? HELL NO
If ZOS is serious about this, I am sure they will do the right thing for all players.2 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »To me personally its not even the stealth protection that makes this addon feel too much, its the screming message when youre about to get cc`d what makes it infuriating. Was fighting around Ales the other day on my magnb, and i saw a magsorc with no shields on i was in sneak so i launched a quick heavy destro/destructive reach combo, needless to say the sorc had his shields up before i even finished the heavy attack animaton, and then thru our fight continuted to block every single fiery reach, before the animation even displayed. And no i wasnt lagging it was clear that he had this addon telling him when to block my cc.
Very skillful gameplay, very frustrating to play aganist. You can feel like an absolute champ using this addon when in reality your just getting your hand held. Do i think its cheating? No, sadly its part of the API, does it make it right? HELL NO
If ZOS is serious about this, I am sure they will do the right thing for all players.
If ZOS follows their past record on this. They won't give an update on it. Yes, they said they are looking into this, but they also said that last year.
3 -
Malic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Darkstorne wrote: »ZOS "approves" for exactly the same reason they approve of animation cancelling. Sure, it's obviously broken, and not how the game was designed to be played, but fixing this stuff would require WORK man, and their skeleton crew is too busy with next year's expansion and all the Crown Crates. Most of the people who worked on the engine and might be able to fix this stuff were let go years ago.
and here I thought I was the smartest person left on these forums (the evidence was pretty overwhelming).
You're a star man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfEOpnp-Zfo 0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The addon is no different to ones that exist in almost every other MMO. Casting alert addons are pretty standard stuff, just like debuff, cooldown, diminishing return timers, dps meters, resource nodes maps, and boss alerts/timers.
If the "it's cheating" crowd were serious they would insist on a completely addon free play experience, as anything that gives the player information they dont directly see and track for themselves is "cheating".
Is it standard in other MMOs that addons show what invisible opponents are doing while "invisible"?
Also, how many of those MMOs have active spammable evasion mechanics to avoid those cast time abilities?
Oh, and it seems almost half the player base would rather disable all addons in PvP than suffer from Miat's:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376334/would-you-like-add-ons-disabled-for-pvp/p1
Since when forum polls with 150 people voting are analogue to whole player base opinion ? It's not how probe is working.
With 150 sample size the margin of error is 8%.
If you are talking about the poll in the thread you posted earlier, the margin of error concerning the player base (which is what you were answering) cannot be derived, at least not with the formulas you posted above. It certainly would be much greater than 8%, statistically speaking.
The poll did not cover the player base and it is questionable it even covered the forum base since it only had 666 views to begin with which is extremely small.
Since you seem to have an interest in the subject I suggest looking into survey sampling methodology. If that is not right, margin of error and confidence levels will not provide reliable information, nor would the poll. It is why polls in the forums are junk science.
Edited by idk on October 22, 2017 5:59PM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The addon is no different to ones that exist in almost every other MMO. Casting alert addons are pretty standard stuff, just like debuff, cooldown, diminishing return timers, dps meters, resource nodes maps, and boss alerts/timers.
If the "it's cheating" crowd were serious they would insist on a completely addon free play experience, as anything that gives the player information they dont directly see and track for themselves is "cheating".
Is it standard in other MMOs that addons show what invisible opponents are doing while "invisible"?
Also, how many of those MMOs have active spammable evasion mechanics to avoid those cast time abilities?
Oh, and it seems almost half the player base would rather disable all addons in PvP than suffer from Miat's:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376334/would-you-like-add-ons-disabled-for-pvp/p1
Since when forum polls with 150 people voting are analogue to whole player base opinion ? It's not how probe is working.
With 150 sample size the margin of error is 8%.
If you are talking about the poll in the thread you posted earlier, the margin of error concerning the player base (which is what you were answering) cannot be derived, at least not with the formulas you posted above. It certainly would be much greater than 8%, statistically speaking.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/
Fire away.
Population is unknown, but you can set it to whatever you think is feasible.The poll did not cover the player base and it is questionable it even covered the forum base since it only had 666 views to begin with which is extremely small.
Since you seem to have an interest in the subject I suggest looking into survey sampling methodology. If that is not right, margin of error and confidence levels will not provide reliable information, nor would the poll. It is why polls in the forums are junk science.
What you are describing is certainly true if the website/platform itself is biased.
E.g. if you were to ask something about immigration in a far right website, you'd get very different results than if you made the same query in a leftist website.
But ESO forums aren't a biased platform as every type of player visits these forums.
So I'd call the polls here quite accurate representation of the population, as long as the polls themselves aren't biased and the question is clear enough.
Sidenote: this is getting awfully off-topic, you folks can pm me if you want to learn more about math.Edited by DDuke on October 22, 2017 6:08PM1 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭Frankly that poll shouldn't of been closed down and the small sample size was more than enough to show that ZoS should do something with addons and PvP.
I have 2+ years of PvP experience PC EU and i voted.
If the legitimate Poll had of been kept going i have no doubt it would of reinforced the already heavily bias on no addons in PvP/Miatts getting taken away.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The addon is no different to ones that exist in almost every other MMO. Casting alert addons are pretty standard stuff, just like debuff, cooldown, diminishing return timers, dps meters, resource nodes maps, and boss alerts/timers.
If the "it's cheating" crowd were serious they would insist on a completely addon free play experience, as anything that gives the player information they dont directly see and track for themselves is "cheating".
Is it standard in other MMOs that addons show what invisible opponents are doing while "invisible"?
Also, how many of those MMOs have active spammable evasion mechanics to avoid those cast time abilities?
Oh, and it seems almost half the player base would rather disable all addons in PvP than suffer from Miat's:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376334/would-you-like-add-ons-disabled-for-pvp/p1
Since when forum polls with 150 people voting are analogue to whole player base opinion ? It's not how probe is working.
With 150 sample size the margin of error is 8%.
If you are talking about the poll in the thread you posted earlier, the margin of error concerning the player base (which is what you were answering) cannot be derived, at least not with the formulas you posted above. It certainly would be much greater than 8%, statistically speaking.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/margin-of-error-calculator/
Fire away.
Population is unknown, but you can set it to whatever you think is feasible.The poll did not cover the player base and it is questionable it even covered the forum base since it only had 666 views to begin with which is extremely small.
Since you seem to have an interest in the subject I suggest looking into survey sampling methodology. If that is not right, margin of error and confidence levels will not provide reliable information, nor would the poll. It is why polls in the forums are junk science.
What you are describing is certainly true if the website/platform itself is biased.
E.g. if you were to ask something about immigration in a far right website, you'd get very different results than if you made the same query in a leftist website.
But ESO forums aren't a biased platform as every type of player visits these forums.
So I'd call the polls here quite accurate representation of the population, as long as the polls themselves aren't biased and the question is clear enough.
Sidenote: this is getting awfully off-topic, you folks can pm me if you want to learn more about math.
I am fully aware of how margin of error, et al, are calculated. However, the information you just provided from Survey Monkey assumes the survey was conducted properly. So in this case it does not provide proper numbers for the two reasons listed below.
1. The issue, and why your numbers are incorrect is the sample is people who self select into the survey. Individuals are choosing to participate rather than the person doing the survey choosing, randomly ofc. Big difference in statistics, which is what you brought into this thread.
2. Most important (since you brought up bias), the poll itself is designed in a biased manner. OP starts off with a proposal to remove addons all together and that is a major flaw with surveys. Invalidates it even if the sampling was proper.
There is no two ways about it. That survey you linked states nothing, even if it did show how the forums thought, it still states nothing about the game base.
EDIT: I have no interest in PMing you. I just wanted to provide the correct information since there was some incorrect statistical information being provided. Understandably, it is easy to come to the conclusion Duke found finding bits of information such as that page on SurveyMonkey.Edited by idk on October 22, 2017 6:35PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pointless to argue with people who can't accept results they don't like.
@idk you can go ask 150 randomly selected people in game & I can guarantee you that you'll get the same result +-8%. Nobody cares enough to brigade polls like these. It is a public poll, so you can see a bunch of bots didn't vote in it.
So no, it's not "fake news".
Conversation over.4 -
CapnPhoton✭✭✭✭✭Hmmmm, did not watch it, did not remotely care too, I completely agree with @DDuke and many others in the essence in that PvP Alerts is basically a hack, and it is really pathetic that so many players, some of which I know, use it and think it is ok.
And for all the wannabe hackers who think this crutch crap is ok and tries to flame me, good luck with that, right and wrong, this garbage is wrong, end of story.
L2P properly with those of us who fight with honour in PvP or duelling or BG, or gtfo.
Agreed. If you want to cheat, play a single player game and not do it against other real players. Hopefully ZOS is aware of this and will make a patch that will nullify it.Xbox One NA Aldmeri Dominion4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pointless to argue with people who can't accept results they don't like.
@idk you can go ask 150 randomly selected people in game & I can guarantee you that you'll get the same result +-8%. Nobody cares enough to brigade polls like these. It is a public poll, so you can see a bunch of bots didn't vote in it.
So no, it's not "fake news".
Conversation over.
It has nothing to do with accepting or not accepting the results of the poll. Heck, I do not think Miat's, in it's current form, should be permitted. However, even the thread you linked earlier is not about Miat's, it is about Addons in general in PvP and that discussion was held almost 4 years ago.
My replies have solely been about the incorrect application statistics which ends up leading false statements. With some basic knowledge of the foundation of statistics it would become obvious.
There are various aspects to a proper survey that none are applied to the poll in question, or a great many of the player created polls in the forums. This type of poll is considered for entertainment value only. One of the main reasons is it mostly attracts those with strong opinions and leaves out a large swath in the middle. Zos is well aware of that.
Nothing personal. Just do not like seeing false statements of statistical information as has been presented here.
EDIT: I am done here unless accurate information on the statistical nature of this discussion is presented. With that I would be pleased to point out the accuracy. Duke's last comment showed the conversation going down the toilet and do not wish to get into a personality bashing match, especially with, seemingly, putting words in my mouth and somehow calling accurate statements on the statistical nature of the forum polls as fake news, demonstrates where this conversation is likely to go.Edited by idk on October 22, 2017 8:24PM1 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kyle.wilson wrote: »How did this turn into a discussion about polling methodology?
I had no idea there could be a less interesting topic to discuss than coding...
apparently polling just so happens to be that less interesting topic...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pointless to argue with people who can't accept results they don't like.
@idk you can go ask 150 randomly selected people in game & I can guarantee you that you'll get the same result +-8%. Nobody cares enough to brigade polls like these. It is a public poll, so you can see a bunch of bots didn't vote in it.
So no, it's not "fake news".
Conversation over.
It has nothing to do with accepting or not accepting the results of the poll. Heck, I do not think Miat's, in it's current form, should be permitted. However, even the thread you linked earlier is not about Miat's, it is about Addons in general in PvP and that discussion was held almost 4 years ago.
My replies have solely been about the incorrect application statistics which ends up leading false statements. With some basic knowledge of the foundation of statistics it would become obvious.
There are various aspects to a proper survey that none are applied to the poll in question, or a great many of the player created polls in the forums. This type of poll is considered for entertainment value only. One of the main reasons is it mostly attracts those with strong opinions and leaves out a large swath in the middle. Zos is well aware of that.
Nothing personal. Just do not like seeing false statements of statistical information as has been presented here.
I will not reply with a comment that is intended to be a distraction or attempt to belittle someone as you have with your last reply.
None taken.
Seems like just an ideological difference then - I believe even online snap polls can be scientifically accurate given proper environment, context & margin of error.
I get the argument that people can opt in and that leads to possibility of it being manipulated (i.e. brigading), I just don't feel like it applies here in this case (though I acknowledge this might just be confirmation bias). There is a possibility I'm wrong.
Of course a poll where you ask people directly is more likely accurate, you're right in that regard and you're right to point that out. Sorry if you found my post belittling - been a little on edge lately as you can probably tell by going through the thread.0 -
ArcVelarian✭✭✭✭✭Addon Authors like Miat and Co will ruin it for the rest of the Player-Base since Zeni will eventually be forced to lock off the API.
Miat style logic: Can I? > Should I?
It's the precedent that screws over everyone else.
Murphy's Law of PvP : If it can be abused and or exploited, it will be abused and or exploited.5 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lovin' how people continue to go to do this ***.
It has become psycologically necessary for you people to hate Miat. Because if he's not an ***, you certainly have been.1 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nice explanation which...doesnt explain anything. You didnt explained why it is 8% and also provided nonsense arguments...
It's 8% because I wanted a 95% confidence level. More on this below.I don't, and that's a good thing. Otherwise there'd be polling bias and you could accuse the pollster of handpicking a favourable demographic.
You can still accuse poll of beeing biased just because You dont know is this group of people representative or not. It can have 90% of 1 demographic model and 10% of 2nd one which also makes poll biased.
Why don't you prove that, if you think that's somehow (I don't see how it'd even be possible) the case? Forums are open to everyone playing this game, everywhere. The question in the poll isn't biased, the pollster neutral. What makes it biased? Which specific "demographic models" are you referring to?Well, only people who have played/still play ESO have forum access to vote on these polls. It doesn't matter how (or why) console players vote, the poll wasn't asking PC players only.
Imagine if ZOS were to add addons to console as well some day - they do have a stake in this as well.
That's not even full answer on my quiestion. You may not know but there is group of people who barely or even dont play anyomore in the game but participate in forum more then regular players and many of them dont even fully know what Miat is.
So? This particular poll you linked is about whether people want addons disabled for PvP or not. What kind of knowledge people have about different addons is irrelevant.
The list of things people have voted for without being aware of all the facts is a long & painful read, but let's not turn this into a politics discussion.Imo it does matter how consoile players vote because they're voting on things that they're not affected with it's like people under 18 y.o voting for president. Fact that some day add ons can come on consoles doesnt change anything sonce poll is about current not future state of game. When kids get in age they can vote for president before that their vote is meaningless and noone cares they'll reach maturity in few months.
Well that's one arrogant statement.
Console players aren't "children" (well, some of them are...) - there's no comparison to be made there.
What your argument entails is voter suppression.
If you want a better analogy, try this:
You have planet Earth (ESO)
You have deadly disease (Miat's) ravaging the population in Country A (PC)
In country B (consoles), people are asked if they want that deadly disease.I don't know that, nor am I supposed to. Again, polling needs to be random in order to avoid bias.
Polling also has to be made on representative group of people otherwise it's biased. We dont even know is half of the people know what Miat add-on is.
Again, does it matter if some people don't know what Miat addon is? If anything, that should make less people vote for total addon ban as the poll you linked advocates.
I could say the same "half the people didn't know who/what they voted for" about 99% of world problems, but that'd be the very bias these polls are trying to avoid.That's why you apply margin of error - to make it more reliable.
With 150 sample size you get it down to 8% margin of error with 95% confidence (5% chance it's wrong). With 99% confidence level you'd have a margin of error of 11% with that sample size.
Math please. Math considering we dont kno anything of people voting and we take under consideration fact most of them may even not know what Miat is because I think Your math is based on voting where You are 100% sure asked people knows what the question is about and I've been on this forum too long to be sure of that.
z=desired confidence level
p=sample proportion (can be left infinite)
n=sample size
Confidence levels:
95%=1.96
98%=2.33
99%=2.58
The same method is used by all election polls etc out there which ask a couple hundred or thousand random people (out of millions) for their opinions, and then with margin of error come up with an accurate (within the desired confidence level) range that represents the whole population.
Everything You're saying sounds nice but what if I would tell You now I bringed 20 guildmates to vote same as me in this poll ? Which means 13% of people who voted are faked. What is margin of error now ? Formula You posted can be nice but not for polls like this one You linked.
If you bring 20 guildmates to vote the same as you in the poll,
presumably because they agree with you, as there is not really a way to 'police' them voting otherwise
then you increase the sample size of the poll
rather than create 'fake votes'
If you made 20 false forum accounts
and voted with your personal preference on each account
in order to skew the poll
those would be fake votes"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nice explanation which...doesnt explain anything. You didnt explained why it is 8% and also provided nonsense arguments...
It's 8% because I wanted a 95% confidence level. More on this below.I don't, and that's a good thing. Otherwise there'd be polling bias and you could accuse the pollster of handpicking a favourable demographic.
You can still accuse poll of beeing biased just because You dont know is this group of people representative or not. It can have 90% of 1 demographic model and 10% of 2nd one which also makes poll biased.
Why don't you prove that, if you think that's somehow (I don't see how it'd even be possible) the case? Forums are open to everyone playing this game, everywhere. The question in the poll isn't biased, the pollster neutral. What makes it biased? Which specific "demographic models" are you referring to?Well, only people who have played/still play ESO have forum access to vote on these polls. It doesn't matter how (or why) console players vote, the poll wasn't asking PC players only.
Imagine if ZOS were to add addons to console as well some day - they do have a stake in this as well.
That's not even full answer on my quiestion. You may not know but there is group of people who barely or even dont play anyomore in the game but participate in forum more then regular players and many of them dont even fully know what Miat is.
So? This particular poll you linked is about whether people want addons disabled for PvP or not. What kind of knowledge people have about different addons is irrelevant.
The list of things people have voted for without being aware of all the facts is a long & painful read, but let's not turn this into a politics discussion.Imo it does matter how consoile players vote because they're voting on things that they're not affected with it's like people under 18 y.o voting for president. Fact that some day add ons can come on consoles doesnt change anything sonce poll is about current not future state of game. When kids get in age they can vote for president before that their vote is meaningless and noone cares they'll reach maturity in few months.
Well that's one arrogant statement.
Console players aren't "children" (well, some of them are...) - there's no comparison to be made there.
What your argument entails is voter suppression.
If you want a better analogy, try this:
You have planet Earth (ESO)
You have deadly disease (Miat's) ravaging the population in Country A (PC)
In country B (consoles), people are asked if they want that deadly disease.I don't know that, nor am I supposed to. Again, polling needs to be random in order to avoid bias.
Polling also has to be made on representative group of people otherwise it's biased. We dont even know is half of the people know what Miat add-on is.
Again, does it matter if some people don't know what Miat addon is? If anything, that should make less people vote for total addon ban as the poll you linked advocates.
I could say the same "half the people didn't know who/what they voted for" about 99% of world problems, but that'd be the very bias these polls are trying to avoid.That's why you apply margin of error - to make it more reliable.
With 150 sample size you get it down to 8% margin of error with 95% confidence (5% chance it's wrong). With 99% confidence level you'd have a margin of error of 11% with that sample size.
Math please. Math considering we dont kno anything of people voting and we take under consideration fact most of them may even not know what Miat is because I think Your math is based on voting where You are 100% sure asked people knows what the question is about and I've been on this forum too long to be sure of that.
z=desired confidence level
p=sample proportion (can be left infinite)
n=sample size
Confidence levels:
95%=1.96
98%=2.33
99%=2.58
The same method is used by all election polls etc out there which ask a couple hundred or thousand random people (out of millions) for their opinions, and then with margin of error come up with an accurate (within the desired confidence level) range that represents the whole population.
Everything You're saying sounds nice but what if I would tell You now I bringed 20 guildmates to vote same as me in this poll ? Which means 13% of people who voted are faked. What is margin of error now ?
The margin of error at 170 votes would be 7.52%.
The poll currently has 150 votes (8% margin of error) & says 48% for "No. Keep Add-Ons. (Explain)" with 72 votes - 92 votes for "No. Keep Add-Ons. (Explain)" would mean 54% of people voted to keep them, which is well within the 8% margin of error.
Outside some major interference margin of error is applicable & accurate - but the confidence level isn't 100% for a reason.
You dont get it. What if I would tell You there is me and 20 of my guildmates which I asked to vote same as me inside that 150 voting people ?0
This discussion has been closed.