ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

Elsonso

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Nebthet78

lordrichter wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Oh I agree with you.. People are partying for no reason and reading more into Gina's words than what was actually posted.
I find it rather amusing.

I don't give a rats fuzzy arse what happens when it comes to this program. It doesn't bother me, nor has it ruined my game play when I choose to PVP because I don't give two craps if I do or don't die. I just PVP for fun and find it so simple compared to other end game aspects of ESO, so I don't need the add ons to help me, except maybe Crown Customizer, LOL. I don't care either if someone else kills me. I just port somewhere else and rapid on my mount back to the fight.

As I had said earlier, probably the easiest route ZOS should take is just prevent any add ons from working while in PVP. That way every one is on fair ground.
But how long is that going to keep people happy until they start whining again about something else? or begin blaming others for doing something they aren't doing because they can't admit their issue is their own lack of skills. It's never ending.

Betsararie

Nebthet78 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Oh I agree with you.. People are partying for no reason and reading more into Gina's words than what was actually posted.
I find it rather amusing.

I don't give a rats fuzzy arse what happens when it comes to this program. It doesn't bother me, nor has it ruined my game play when I choose to PVP because I don't give two craps if I do or don't die. I just PVP for fun and find it so simple compared to other end game aspects of ESO, so I don't need the add ons to help me, except maybe Crown Customizer, LOL. I don't care either if someone else kills me. I just port somewhere else and rapid on my mount back to the fight.

As I had said earlier, probably the easiest route ZOS should take is just prevent any add ons from working while in PVP. That way every one is on fair ground.
But how long is that going to keep people happy until they start whining again about something else? or begin blaming others for doing something they aren't doing because they can't admit their issue is their own lack of skills. It's never ending.

loling so hard. No addons in PvP. Is the objective to make everyone even more frustrated? lol

Lylith

Blanco wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Oh I agree with you.. People are partying for no reason and reading more into Gina's words than what was actually posted.
I find it rather amusing.

I don't give a rats fuzzy arse what happens when it comes to this program. It doesn't bother me, nor has it ruined my game play when I choose to PVP because I don't give two craps if I do or don't die. I just PVP for fun and find it so simple compared to other end game aspects of ESO, so I don't need the add ons to help me, except maybe Crown Customizer, LOL. I don't care either if someone else kills me. I just port somewhere else and rapid on my mount back to the fight.

As I had said earlier, probably the easiest route ZOS should take is just prevent any add ons from working while in PVP. That way every one is on fair ground.
But how long is that going to keep people happy until they start whining again about something else? or begin blaming others for doing something they aren't doing because they can't admit their issue is their own lack of skills. It's never ending.

loling so hard. No addons in PvP. Is the objective to make everyone even more frustrated? lol

if the intent is to cause to quit pvp completely, that would be a good start.

Gilvoth

Blanco wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Oh I agree with you.. People are partying for no reason and reading more into Gina's words than what was actually posted.
I find it rather amusing.

I don't give a rats fuzzy arse what happens when it comes to this program. It doesn't bother me, nor has it ruined my game play when I choose to PVP because I don't give two craps if I do or don't die. I just PVP for fun and find it so simple compared to other end game aspects of ESO, so I don't need the add ons to help me, except maybe Crown Customizer, LOL. I don't care either if someone else kills me. I just port somewhere else and rapid on my mount back to the fight.

As I had said earlier, probably the easiest route ZOS should take is just prevent any add ons from working while in PVP. That way every one is on fair ground.
But how long is that going to keep people happy until they start whining again about something else? or begin blaming others for doing something they aren't doing because they can't admit their issue is their own lack of skills. It's never ending.

loling so hard. No addons in PvP. Is the objective to make everyone even more frustrated? lol

no, not at all, just the "cheating add-0ns" you can keep the working ones that dont cheat.
we just want to rid eso of the cheating ones.

Reverb

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Oh I agree with you.. People are partying for no reason and reading more into Gina's words than what was actually posted.
I find it rather amusing.

I don't give a rats fuzzy arse what happens when it comes to this program. It doesn't bother me, nor has it ruined my game play when I choose to PVP because I don't give two craps if I do or don't die. I just PVP for fun and find it so simple compared to other end game aspects of ESO, so I don't need the add ons to help me, except maybe Crown Customizer, LOL. I don't care either if someone else kills me. I just port somewhere else and rapid on my mount back to the fight.

As I had said earlier, probably the easiest route ZOS should take is just prevent any add ons from working while in PVP. That way every one is on fair ground.
But how long is that going to keep people happy until they start whining again about something else? or begin blaming others for doing something they aren't doing because they can't admit their issue is their own lack of skills. It's never ending.

loling so hard. No addons in PvP. Is the objective to make everyone even more frustrated? lol

no, not at all, just the "cheating add-0ns" you can keep the working ones that dont cheat.
we just want to rid eso of the cheating ones.

Defined by who? There's clearly no consensus on what makes an add-on "cheating". There are staunch defenders of Miat's, as vocal as those who claim it is cheating. Is CyrHud cheating? Is Cyrodiil Alerts? I don't think so, but there are some who would argue otherwise.

It's not the community's place to determine what add-ons are and are not ok. We can raise awareness of ones that we think have a negative impact, like Miat's, but so long as an add-on is allowed by Zeni, and using data in the open API, it's not cheating.

Betsararie

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Oh I agree with you.. People are partying for no reason and reading more into Gina's words than what was actually posted.
I find it rather amusing.

I don't give a rats fuzzy arse what happens when it comes to this program. It doesn't bother me, nor has it ruined my game play when I choose to PVP because I don't give two craps if I do or don't die. I just PVP for fun and find it so simple compared to other end game aspects of ESO, so I don't need the add ons to help me, except maybe Crown Customizer, LOL. I don't care either if someone else kills me. I just port somewhere else and rapid on my mount back to the fight.

As I had said earlier, probably the easiest route ZOS should take is just prevent any add ons from working while in PVP. That way every one is on fair ground.
But how long is that going to keep people happy until they start whining again about something else? or begin blaming others for doing something they aren't doing because they can't admit their issue is their own lack of skills. It's never ending.

loling so hard. No addons in PvP. Is the objective to make everyone even more frustrated? lol

no, not at all, just the "cheating add-0ns" you can keep the working ones that dont cheat.
we just want to rid eso of the cheating ones.

Well I have to say I agree with this 100%.

Addons, like kill counter, absolutely should be allowed. But addons like Miat's, that give the player unintended capabilities, should not be allowed.

paulsimonps

I laughed so fricking hard at the change of the title for the thread. Kinda made my morning.

Remove the root of the evil and the people will rejoice.

thedude33

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Here's something I mentioned in the other thread before it was closed.. It's how this particular addon brings up a wider question about whether addons should exist at all.

In essence this as all about a question of whether this addon provides an unfair advantage. Don't most addons do this?


Are they going to comment on individual addons which the community have raised as a possible issue? Well, I think we all know the answer to that!

Are they going to change their API's to stop various functions in their API's - well we've seen some evidence of that. If this is the only route that ZoS takes to communicate if an addon is ok or not - then must we assume that 'If it's possible, its ok'

Are they doing nothing? Hmm.. tough one.. Are they doing nothing because they are unaware? or don't care? or won't change their API because they think its acceptable? or can't change their API without it breaking something important? or just don't want to fund/prioritise what could be an expensive change? Who knows.

The only think we do know is that ZOS's COMMUNICATION SUCKS ON THIS ISSUE WHICH IS TEARING THE COMMUNITY APART

Its not really the answer any of us are looking for...

THIS is DESTROYING OBLITERATING RUINING *** UP or however you wanna pronounce it a class. Remove NB and stealth, or do something about it Zeni (but you didnt give a *** for years so why now. I bet you devs use Miats as well)

It's funny you say this when nbs, in all it's forms, are currently hands down the strongest class. By quite a lot.

I think its time to clear up a bit what I meant; ranged stealth attacks. Not melee. Because mr. Miats wanted it that way. He hates ranged attacks from stealth and has on several occations explained his intentions was to eliminate it.Melee attacks, on the other hand, now THOSE are FINE, because he LIKES that playstyle....think about that for a second...Eliminate ranged attacks threat to himself. Thats kind of scary. One man nullifies Zenis intentions when they made class and ability mechanics. scissor/paper/stone. He decided scissior was op, cause hes paper, so solution; remove scissor from the game.

Lol. It’s starting to strike me that this Miat individual is like a fictional character named Zamasu. Zamasu did not like the way that humans were, so he went on ahead and decided to himself that he would eliminate any and all potential threats to him via annihilating the human race. Dude did this in multiple universes, after deciding it upon himself that humans do not deserve the right to exist. Completing ignoring the fact that it was Zen-oh who had created these universes. And ultimately has the last word on what does and does not exist in all planes of space and time. Plus everything in between.

Now let’s draw our connections, shall me? Miat doesn’t like ranged attacks or gankers. They decide 1 day that they will completely nullify ranged builds that are stealth oriented. Why? Because they simply don’t feel that the given play style deserves to exist anymore. So, he alone decides he will change PvP forever with his add-on, and does. Lol. Completely ignoring the fact it is not up to him whether or not a certain play style should be relative. But ZOS.

Hmm... I wonder now if and when Miat gets taken away (as it probably will), we will see a new type of add-on that completely renders another build and play style useless. Lol. Like a Miat’s 2.0. If so, can whoever is designing it name it “Zamasu’s Add-On”? That would be pretty dope.

You should go back in time reading up on how he defends himself. How he calmly and logically tries to convince the rest why ranged attacks should not be allowed within the game, and how he, the great and mighty one, did what Zenimax could not do due to their incompetence. He even demads reward and praise for his balance changes...He has a huge god complex, he believes he is innfailable and he believes he is entitled to dictate the way pvp should be according to his own rules. If he tried something like this in real life (maybe he has, for all I know), it would be something like this; I want a burger, burgers cost money, I dont have money, so I make money obsolete. From now on all must use sea shells as currency, as I live on a beach and it makes me rich..."

The arrogance oozes out of him...and he is oblivious to it.

thedude33

.... I see the post headline has changed. I can't see what ZoS has said about this.

Samadhi

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to let everyone know, we have been keeping a close eye on this thread and everyone's feedback on these types of addons. We can tell you that we're planning to make some changes to our API to disallow some aspects that we're simply not comfortable with. This is all actively in progress, and we'll let you know exactly what we plan to change when we have a better idea of when we'll be rolling it out; we want to give our addon developers a warning so they have a chance to iterate.

Thank you kindly for the heads up

Egonieser

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Make a macro addon as well and let it play the game for you if you are bad enough to rely on bs like this.
And potatoes on the forum who are already abusing the *** out of it will also tell you that it's okay to use macros because basically it is not cheating since zos didn't say so.
The addon is a mess that forces every player to use it eventually to be in equal conditions with people who are already using it. Why do you even pvp at this point if you do not like any challenge and you let the addon do the job for you? What's the whole point? I don't really get it.

Most games that have competitive e-sports aspects already have these features as basics (in

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You cannot in good faith keep calling this an exploit unless you bring forth some argument that clearly shows that it is against the developers design intend.

This is absolutely key to the argument; we cannot tell what ZOS takes a stance on. They have time and time again failed to show their interest in the subject, giving unclear and vague answers and having sparse interactions with the community. This is where the controversy starts because we don't know what they want to do.

They say that they may restrict the API for it, but when you consider it's been 10 months since the addon's release, how do we know if they're still working on it? They've given no indication as of late of this. When you realize that there's been no public statement about bans or how this addon is clearly an exploit, we have no way to tell. We can merely infer that, because they are taking so long to take action, they either are "okay" with it or don't have it high enough on their priority list. That's just an example of how an argument can be formed from this. There are so many ways you can draw conclusions from this situation.

Constructing legitimate inferences about what ZOS is going to do or doing about this is what everyone is arguing about right now. By reflecting on this and, consequentially, taking in what we know about ZOS, we can only guess. Nothing is set in stone unless we get an absolute, clarified response, which we aren't even certain will happen at this stage.

The only thing we can hinge on is communication. Until that, we can bicker on and on about if it's exploit, cheat, etc.

Well it's more than self-explanatory.
Gamebreaking issue or glitch happens that gives people ability to exploit it - patched within a day or so with a hotfix.
Miat's Addon - 10 months, hardly a glance, maybe few tweaks to API here and there.
Just give the community a bogstandard "we are looking into it" response which also applies for other persistant problems within the game that have been there since launch. And there you can clearly see they simply don't care enough. Nor should they really. There are also numerous addons for PvE that give PvE players huge advantages over those who do not use them, but somehow they are being kept silent about.

In fact ANY addon gives a player an advantage over one who is not using one, why is this so drastically different? It's not, it's just in PvP so much more salt is added on top of it and lots of butthurt-inspired responses because somebody probably had a bad day in PvP and needs to lash out somewhere. Solution is simple, regarding any addon, be it a PvE or PvP addon. USE IT YOURSELF, it's not like you are prohibited from doing so.
The only situation it would be unfair is if one person is allowed and can use said addon but the other is not, but such is not the case. Everyone on PC can use exactly the same addons and be on the level of the playing field they so tout to desire. Problem is, half of them are lazy and can't be bothered setting it up so instead of doing so, they want everyone else to not use them instead.

And it's not cheating, it's not unintended, it's not exploiting or whatever bollocks is thrown around in this thread. All of the features of an addon can only be done using the API ZoS themselves have put in place and validated and if such features were not allowed, they would not be part of said API. So throw that garbage statement out the window.
They may look at it and change some things, same way they have been doing it for the last 10 months, but the fact it's there and it's not been taken down or disallowed, alone is a statement. They clearly know how the addon works and what it's capable of, yet it still has remained for almost a year. So instead of moaning about it, if it bothers you so much, install it yourself and be on the same playing field you so wish to be, but if not, then clearly you don't care so much about "even playing field" and are just salty for the sake of it.

Morgul667

Yeahhhhhhhhhh !!!

paulsimonps

Egonieser wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Make a macro addon as well and let it play the game for you if you are bad enough to rely on bs like this.
And potatoes on the forum who are already abusing the *** out of it will also tell you that it's okay to use macros because basically it is not cheating since zos didn't say so.
The addon is a mess that forces every player to use it eventually to be in equal conditions with people who are already using it. Why do you even pvp at this point if you do not like any challenge and you let the addon do the job for you? What's the whole point? I don't really get it.

Most games that have competitive e-sports aspects already have these features as basics (in

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You cannot in good faith keep calling this an exploit unless you bring forth some argument that clearly shows that it is against the developers design intend.

This is absolutely key to the argument; we cannot tell what ZOS takes a stance on. They have time and time again failed to show their interest in the subject, giving unclear and vague answers and having sparse interactions with the community. This is where the controversy starts because we don't know what they want to do.

They say that they may restrict the API for it, but when you consider it's been 10 months since the addon's release, how do we know if they're still working on it? They've given no indication as of late of this. When you realize that there's been no public statement about bans or how this addon is clearly an exploit, we have no way to tell. We can merely infer that, because they are taking so long to take action, they either are "okay" with it or don't have it high enough on their priority list. That's just an example of how an argument can be formed from this. There are so many ways you can draw conclusions from this situation.

Constructing legitimate inferences about what ZOS is going to do or doing about this is what everyone is arguing about right now. By reflecting on this and, consequentially, taking in what we know about ZOS, we can only guess. Nothing is set in stone unless we get an absolute, clarified response, which we aren't even certain will happen at this stage.

The only thing we can hinge on is communication. Until that, we can bicker on and on about if it's exploit, cheat, etc.

Well it's more than self-explanatory.
Gamebreaking issue or glitch happens that gives people ability to exploit it - patched within a day or so with a hotfix.
Miat's Addon - 10 months, hardly a glance, maybe few tweaks to API here and there.
Just give the community a bogstandard "we are looking into it" response which also applies for other persistant problems within the game that have been there since launch. And there you can clearly see they simply don't care enough. Nor should they really. There are also numerous addons for PvE that give PvE players huge advantages over those who do not use them, but somehow they are being kept silent about.

In fact ANY addon gives a player an advantage over one who is not using one, why is this so drastically different? It's not, it's just in PvP so much more salt is added on top of it and lots of butthurt-inspired responses because somebody probably had a bad day in PvP and needs to lash out somewhere. Solution is simple, regarding any addon, be it a PvE or PvP addon. USE IT YOURSELF, it's not like you are prohibited from doing so.
The only situation it would be unfair is if one person is allowed and can use said addon but the other is not, but such is not the case. Everyone on PC can use exactly the same addons and be on the level of the playing field they so tout to desire. Problem is, half of them are lazy and can't be bothered setting it up so instead of doing so, they want everyone else to not use them instead.

And it's not cheating, it's not unintended, it's not exploiting or whatever bollocks is thrown around in this thread. All of the features of an addon can only be done using the API ZoS themselves have put in place and validated and if such features were not allowed, they would not be part of said API. So throw that garbage statement out the window.
They may look at it and change some things, same way they have been doing it for the last 10 months, but the fact it's there and it's not been taken down or disallowed, alone is a statement. They clearly know how the addon works and what it's capable of, yet it still has remained for almost a year. So instead of moaning about it, if it bothers you so much, install it yourself and be on the same playing field you so wish to be, but if not, then clearly you don't care so much about "even playing field" and are just salty for the sake of it.

I should not have to install an addon to be competitive! And oh how fun it must be for new people coming in to the game and wanting to try PvP and doesn't know about the addon. Not only are they at a huge disadvantage, it will put off a lot of people from PvPing cause of it. And PvPers if anything whine a lot about low population, maybe we should wonder why. Not saying its the only reason but damn sure its one of them.

DDuke

Reverb wrote: »

Defined by who? There's clearly no consensus on what makes an add-on "cheating". There are staunch defenders of Miat's, as vocal as those who claim it is cheating. Is CyrHud cheating? Is Cyrodiil Alerts? I don't think so, but there are some who would argue otherwise.

The vast majority of player base.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376277/is-miats-add-on-cheating-to-you/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

Reverb wrote: »

It's not the community's place to determine what add-ons are and are not ok. We can raise awareness of ones that we think have a negative impact, like Miat's, but so long as an add-on is allowed by Zeni, and using data in the open API, it's not cheating.

Yeah... but that same argument could be used to defend any in game exploit. "It's in the game, so it's ok".
That's just faulty logic.

Voxicity

Very happy

Zaldan

Lol, because zo$ have never failed to fix something they were going to fix

DDuke

Egonieser wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Make a macro addon as well and let it play the game for you if you are bad enough to rely on bs like this.
And potatoes on the forum who are already abusing the *** out of it will also tell you that it's okay to use macros because basically it is not cheating since zos didn't say so.
The addon is a mess that forces every player to use it eventually to be in equal conditions with people who are already using it. Why do you even pvp at this point if you do not like any challenge and you let the addon do the job for you? What's the whole point? I don't really get it.

Most games that have competitive e-sports aspects already have these features as basics (in

No they don't. Name one game with active evasion skills that lets you know of incoming attacks 1s+ in advance before they even happen.

In FPS games, the equivalent to that would be a Wallhack/Aimbot - needless to say those aren't "basic features"...

Egonieser wrote: »

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You cannot in good faith keep calling this an exploit unless you bring forth some argument that clearly shows that it is against the developers design intend.

This is absolutely key to the argument; we cannot tell what ZOS takes a stance on. They have time and time again failed to show their interest in the subject, giving unclear and vague answers and having sparse interactions with the community. This is where the controversy starts because we don't know what they want to do.

They say that they may restrict the API for it, but when you consider it's been 10 months since the addon's release, how do we know if they're still working on it? They've given no indication as of late of this. When you realize that there's been no public statement about bans or how this addon is clearly an exploit, we have no way to tell. We can merely infer that, because they are taking so long to take action, they either are "okay" with it or don't have it high enough on their priority list. That's just an example of how an argument can be formed from this. There are so many ways you can draw conclusions from this situation.

Constructing legitimate inferences about what ZOS is going to do or doing about this is what everyone is arguing about right now. By reflecting on this and, consequentially, taking in what we know about ZOS, we can only guess. Nothing is set in stone unless we get an absolute, clarified response, which we aren't even certain will happen at this stage.

The only thing we can hinge on is communication. Until that, we can bicker on and on about if it's exploit, cheat, etc.

Well it's more than self-explanatory.
Gamebreaking issue or glitch happens that gives people ability to exploit it - patched within a day or so with a hotfix.
Miat's Addon - 10 months, hardly a glance, maybe few tweaks to API here and there.

Really, like Sharpened Maces, Double Mundus, teleporting into enemy keeps etc etc got fixed in "within a day or so"? How Cheat Engine definitely didn't exist for years before it got reined in?

Egonieser wrote: »

Just give the community a bogstandard "we are looking into it" response which also applies for other persistant problems within the game that have been there since launch. And there you can clearly see they simply don't care enough. Nor should they really. There are also numerous addons for PvE that give PvE players huge advantages over those who do not use them, but somehow they are being kept silent about.

One could say those PvE addons are more of a "quality of life" things than something abusive, as they don't negatively affect how other people play the game.
Still, there are some cases where they do provide a clear advantage and I wouldn't mind seeing those restricted (but then again, as they don't affect other people I don't feel that strongly about them).

Egonieser wrote: »

In fact ANY addon gives a player an advantage over one who is not using one, why is this so drastically different? It's not, it's just in PvP so much more salt is added on top of it and lots of butthurt-inspired responses because somebody probably had a bad day in PvP and needs to lash out somewhere. Solution is simple, regarding any addon, be it a PvE or PvP addon. USE IT YOURSELF, it's not like you are prohibited from doing so.
The only situation it would be unfair is if one person is allowed and can use said addon but the other is not, but such is not the case. Everyone on PC can use exactly the same addons and be on the level of the playing field they so tout to desire. Problem is, half of them are lazy and can't be bothered setting it up so instead of doing so, they want everyone else to not use them instead.

I don't think you understand what exactly this addon does.

It doesn't matter if I use the addon or not, it still makes any ranged build using a cast time ability useless while not affecting the melee builds at all.

What this means is that the meta in game is defined by a 3rd party plugin - it means I cannot play a build I enjoy (a bow build) simply because an addon gives people 1s+ heads up before my burst is even in the air.

So no, using this addon (which I've been doing for months on my melee build I'm bored of) doesn't make a difference.

A 3rd party plugin should not be telling people what playstyles they can and can't play.

Egonieser wrote: »

And it's not cheating, it's not unintended, it's not exploiting or whatever bollocks is thrown around in this thread. All of the features of an addon can only be done using the API ZoS themselves have put in place and validated and if such features were not allowed, they would not be part of said API. So throw that garbage statement out the window.
They may look at it and change some things, same way they have been doing it for the last 10 months, but the fact it's there and it's not been taken down or disallowed, alone is a statement. They clearly know how the addon works and what it's capable of, yet it still has remained for almost a year. So instead of moaning about it, if it bothers you so much, install it yourself and be on the same playing field you so wish to be, but if not, then clearly you don't care so much about "even playing field" and are just salty for the sake of it.

Again, you only need to look at any in game exploit (a flaw/bug in the game's code) to debunk that argument.

Something existing in the game's code (be it in game code or the API code) doesn't mean it's something that's supposed to be there.

Biro123

Blanco wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Yeah, it's not a gray area. Like, who was saying it's a gray area?

If such advantages were offered by anything other than an approved addon they would be labeled as an exploit or "cheating".

So now that they are offered by an approved addon, they're no longer cheating? No, that doesn't make sense. Cheating is still cheating whether or not it's allowed. Just as stealing is still stealing whether or not it is allowed..

I'm not understanding your thoughts.
If stealing is "allowed", by definition its not stealing.

I'm curious if we would get more input from ZOS if the add-on Raid Notifier were included.
It is another addon that allows players to ignore game cues, and play with training wheels.

That's not true you're just flat out wrong

If I steal all of your stuff and I don't get in trouble I still stole all of your stuff. So I'm not arguing this with you anymore and wasting my time more

Steal - take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
allow - 1. give (someone) permission to do something.

I'm dead set against the API allowing addons like Miats, but your example was insane.
Stealing without getting caught isn't "allowing" it.

No you just don't understand really at all if stealing is somehow allowed or "legal" and someone proceeds to take all of your stuff, in my opinion that would still be stealing.

I didn't say anything about merely not getting caught. You just don't understand. You don't. Just don't try to.

I think you're a little mixed up between immoral and illegal.
Look, I don't like what the add-on does, and like you avoided using it until it became apparent that the majority in cyro were already using it.
I want it gone.
This (and other) addons do give real advantages to certain play styles, which I believe is immoral.

But I have still not seen a clear enough statement from zos to say that its illegal. There have been hints in multiple places, but that is all.
The fact that Gina's statement says that 'there are things they don't like' and 'looking into it' suggests to me that they havn't yet decided.
And BTW, just because a developer doesn't like something doesn't mean its cheating, it usually just means something they would like to change. If they didn't like a particular sound effect, would it be cheating to still use it?

I mean the sum total of the statements from zos, and their tos does hint to a possibility that it could be construed as cheating, but its definitely not clear enough for me to go around accusing everyone who uses it of being a cheat.

Riejael

paulsimonps wrote: »

I should not have to install an addon to be competitive! And oh how fun it must be for new people coming in to the game and wanting to try PvP and doesn't know about the addon. Not only are they at a huge disadvantage, it will put off a lot of people from PvPing cause of it. And PvPers if anything whine a lot about low population, maybe we should wonder why. Not saying its the only reason but damn sure its one of them.

Must be a console player.

MMORPGs on PC have been using addons for at least 18 years. That's longer than some of these players have been able to sit in front of a keyboard.

Then we got the new player argument.

Again, MMOs on PC require one to be adaptable and more importantly, resourceful. A new player to ESO can use a simple google search about things they should learn and find info that teaches them to animation cancel and immediately get in edge in PVP over another new player who hasn't done so.

A simple google search on PVP addons for ESO can get you the addon in question. In fact if you type in "ESO PVP addons" into google search it is the second result under ESOUI's PVP category. That means its been a very popular addon for the last 9 months.

Those are resources that are required of MMO players that goes back to the days of keeping 3 punch binders in 1999. Having a physical map of the Great Divide at your desk with a list of spawn locations marked with a pencil gave one an advantage over someone who didn't.

Once you learn to find and utilize those resources, then you become a veteran player. Sorry to say but personal skill in a MMO is only one third of the required aspects needed to be successful. Its been like that for 20 years and will continue to be like that for another.

Back to the subject of how popular the addon is according to google search algorithms. I find it interesting that everyone says the addons (oh there's more than one, there's many not listed publicly.. good luck complaining about them when you don't even know what they are) clear out the game.

Is that why I have a queue to join standard PVP campaigns in Cyrodil? I never saw that before Morrowind personally. Never saw it before One Tamriel. Suffice to say, PVP is as popular as its ever been. ZOS will have to approach this carefully. Cater to the vocal minority, or the silent majority?

Either way your arguments are invalid. Driving away people.. like that is supposed to deter a true PVPer? In case you didn't know, the endgoal of PVP in MMORPGs is to be the last person standing. To drive out the opposition is the victory condition. But I guess I can't expect that from inexperienced players of these sorts of games. They never experienced being corpse camped on their soulbinder till they de-leveled a few times on Sullon Zek. Or get ganked during a raid attempt and have the target stolen from them.

PVP has gone soft in the last decade.

Ajantisz

The addon is no different to ones that exist in almost every other MMO. Casting alert addons are pretty standard stuff, just like debuff, cooldown, diminishing return timers, dps meters, resource nodes maps, and boss alerts/timers.

If the "it's cheating" crowd were serious they would insist on a completely addon free play experience, as anything that gives the player information they dont directly see and track for themselves is "cheating".

DDuke

Ajantisz wrote: »

The addon is no different to ones that exist in almost every other MMO. Casting alert addons are pretty standard stuff, just like debuff, cooldown, diminishing return timers, dps meters, resource nodes maps, and boss alerts/timers.

If the "it's cheating" crowd were serious they would insist on a completely addon free play experience, as anything that gives the player information they dont directly see and track for themselves is "cheating".

Is it standard in other MMOs that addons show what invisible opponents are doing while "invisible"?

Also, how many of those MMOs have active spammable evasion mechanics to avoid those cast time abilities?


Oh, and it seems almost half the player base would rather disable all addons in PvP than suffer from Miat's:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/376334/would-you-like-add-ons-disabled-for-pvp/p1

paulsimonps

Riejael wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I should not have to install an addon to be competitive! And oh how fun it must be for new people coming in to the game and wanting to try PvP and doesn't know about the addon. Not only are they at a huge disadvantage, it will put off a lot of people from PvPing cause of it. And PvPers if anything whine a lot about low population, maybe we should wonder why. Not saying its the only reason but damn sure its one of them.

Must be a console player.

MMORPGs on PC have been using addons for at least 18 years. That's longer than some of these players have been able to sit in front of a keyboard.

Then we got the new player argument.

Again, MMOs on PC require one to be adaptable and more importantly, resourceful. A new player to ESO can use a simple google search about things they should learn and find info that teaches them to animation cancel and immediately get in edge in PVP over another new player who hasn't done so.

A simple google search on PVP addons for ESO can get you the addon in question. In fact if you type in "ESO PVP addons" into google search it is the second result under ESOUI's PVP category. That means its been a very popular addon for the last 9 months.

Those are resources that are required of MMO players that goes back to the days of keeping 3 punch binders in 1999. Having a physical map of the Great Divide at your desk with a list of spawn locations marked with a pencil gave one an advantage over someone who didn't.

Once you learn to find and utilize those resources, then you become a veteran player. Sorry to say but personal skill in a MMO is only one third of the required aspects needed to be successful. Its been like that for 20 years and will continue to be like that for another.

Back to the subject of how popular the addon is according to google search algorithms. I find it interesting that everyone says the addons (oh there's more than one, there's many not listed publicly.. good luck complaining about them when you don't even know what they are) clear out the game.

Is that why I have a queue to join standard PVP campaigns in Cyrodil? I never saw that before Morrowind personally. Never saw it before One Tamriel. Suffice to say, PVP is as popular as its ever been. ZOS will have to approach this carefully. Cater to the vocal minority, or the silent majority?

Either way your arguments are invalid. Driving away people.. like that is supposed to deter a true PVPer? In case you didn't know, the endgoal of PVP in MMORPGs is to be the last person standing. To drive out the opposition is the victory condition. But I guess I can't expect that from inexperienced players of these sorts of games. They never experienced being corpse camped on their soulbinder till they de-leveled a few times on Sullon Zek. Or get ganked during a raid attempt and have the target stolen from them.

PVP has gone soft in the last decade.

First off, love that fact that you can't read. The fact that I am PC/NA is literally in my signature, but nice assumptions though.

Second, that last bit is idiotic. Sure you want to win and kill everyone but to drive people away from continuing to PvP will just destroy the game. But yea, lets make everyone quite the game, OH HOW MUCH MORE FUN PVP WILL BE WITH NO ENEMIES! But lets keep stroking your old ego from old games that is not ESO and were not designed like ESO, cause those comparisons always works.

As well the one popular campaign being queued for is the same as always, but outside of Vivec there is almost no action, it used to be a lot more action in other campaigns before.

But hey, lets keep having an addon that is forced on you if you want to be competitive and drives of newer inexperienced players. Not to mention that is destroys certain playstyles from working against those that uses it, limiting the viable builds possible even further.

Adernath

Just disable all addons during PvP, end of story.

Peekachu99

Turelus wrote: »

If ZOS lets you make it from the API, it's not cheating.

I don't like the add-on but the way to stop it is in ZOS' hands and they're not stopping it.

Exploits are simply clever uses of unforeseen, programmed behaviour, and these violate the ToS when brought to higher authorities’ attention. I’m not sure why we’re still not treating this like an exploit, when it clearly is (and would therefore be a violation of the ToS).

I’m all for addons that enhance the quality of life, but common sense would suggest that detecting invisible enemies in competitive PVP is NOT enhancing the quality of life (especially not for the ganker—for whom I rarely empathize).

This is cheating, clear as looking at someone’s hand in a game of cards. The mental gymnastics surrounding it need to stop.

Jade1986

Reverb wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Oh I agree with you.. People are partying for no reason and reading more into Gina's words than what was actually posted.
I find it rather amusing.

I don't give a rats fuzzy arse what happens when it comes to this program. It doesn't bother me, nor has it ruined my game play when I choose to PVP because I don't give two craps if I do or don't die. I just PVP for fun and find it so simple compared to other end game aspects of ESO, so I don't need the add ons to help me, except maybe Crown Customizer, LOL. I don't care either if someone else kills me. I just port somewhere else and rapid on my mount back to the fight.

As I had said earlier, probably the easiest route ZOS should take is just prevent any add ons from working while in PVP. That way every one is on fair ground.
But how long is that going to keep people happy until they start whining again about something else? or begin blaming others for doing something they aren't doing because they can't admit their issue is their own lack of skills. It's never ending.

loling so hard. No addons in PvP. Is the objective to make everyone even more frustrated? lol

no, not at all, just the "cheating add-0ns" you can keep the working ones that dont cheat.
we just want to rid eso of the cheating ones.

Defined by who? There's clearly no consensus on what makes an add-on "cheating". There are staunch defenders of Miat's, as vocal as those who claim it is cheating. Is CyrHud cheating? Is Cyrodiil Alerts? I don't think so, but there are some who would argue otherwise.

It's not the community's place to determine what add-ons are and are not ok. We can raise awareness of ones that we think have a negative impact, like Miat's, but so long as an add-on is allowed by Zeni, and using data in the open API, it's not cheating.

Its actually pretty clear cut. You get a notification of someones attack even if they are in stealth and you arent targeting them and have the ability to react to it with no counter what so ever. That is cheating. The rest of the add on is fine, hell, itd even be fine if you were required to target someone to see the charge up timer, but as is, it is cheating. Murder and *** are still murder and *** even if it is legal or tolerated.

Jade1986

Egonieser wrote: »

Jaybe_Mawfaka wrote: »

Make a macro addon as well and let it play the game for you if you are bad enough to rely on bs like this.
And potatoes on the forum who are already abusing the *** out of it will also tell you that it's okay to use macros because basically it is not cheating since zos didn't say so.
The addon is a mess that forces every player to use it eventually to be in equal conditions with people who are already using it. Why do you even pvp at this point if you do not like any challenge and you let the addon do the job for you? What's the whole point? I don't really get it.

Most games that have competitive e-sports aspects already have these features as basics (in

Ulfgarde wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

You cannot in good faith keep calling this an exploit unless you bring forth some argument that clearly shows that it is against the developers design intend.

This is absolutely key to the argument; we cannot tell what ZOS takes a stance on. They have time and time again failed to show their interest in the subject, giving unclear and vague answers and having sparse interactions with the community. This is where the controversy starts because we don't know what they want to do.

They say that they may restrict the API for it, but when you consider it's been 10 months since the addon's release, how do we know if they're still working on it? They've given no indication as of late of this. When you realize that there's been no public statement about bans or how this addon is clearly an exploit, we have no way to tell. We can merely infer that, because they are taking so long to take action, they either are "okay" with it or don't have it high enough on their priority list. That's just an example of how an argument can be formed from this. There are so many ways you can draw conclusions from this situation.

Constructing legitimate inferences about what ZOS is going to do or doing about this is what everyone is arguing about right now. By reflecting on this and, consequentially, taking in what we know about ZOS, we can only guess. Nothing is set in stone unless we get an absolute, clarified response, which we aren't even certain will happen at this stage.

The only thing we can hinge on is communication. Until that, we can bicker on and on about if it's exploit, cheat, etc.

Well it's more than self-explanatory.
Gamebreaking issue or glitch happens that gives people ability to exploit it - patched within a day or so with a hotfix.
Miat's Addon - 10 months, hardly a glance, maybe few tweaks to API here and there.
Just give the community a bogstandard "we are looking into it" response which also applies for other persistant problems within the game that have been there since launch. And there you can clearly see they simply don't care enough. Nor should they really. There are also numerous addons for PvE that give PvE players huge advantages over those who do not use them, but somehow they are being kept silent about.

In fact ANY addon gives a player an advantage over one who is not using one, why is this so drastically different? It's not, it's just in PvP so much more salt is added on top of it and lots of butthurt-inspired responses because somebody probably had a bad day in PvP and needs to lash out somewhere. Solution is simple, regarding any addon, be it a PvE or PvP addon. USE IT YOURSELF, it's not like you are prohibited from doing so.
The only situation it would be unfair is if one person is allowed and can use said addon but the other is not, but such is not the case. Everyone on PC can use exactly the same addons and be on the level of the playing field they so tout to desire. Problem is, half of them are lazy and can't be bothered setting it up so instead of doing so, they want everyone else to not use them instead.

And it's not cheating, it's not unintended, it's not exploiting or whatever bollocks is thrown around in this thread. All of the features of an addon can only be done using the API ZoS themselves have put in place and validated and if such features were not allowed, they would not be part of said API. So throw that garbage statement out the window.
They may look at it and change some things, same way they have been doing it for the last 10 months, but the fact it's there and it's not been taken down or disallowed, alone is a statement. They clearly know how the addon works and what it's capable of, yet it still has remained for almost a year. So instead of moaning about it, if it bothers you so much, install it yourself and be on the same playing field you so wish to be, but if not, then clearly you don't care so much about "even playing field" and are just salty for the sake of it.

installing it myself will not change the problem at hand for ranged players who use charge up attacks. There is no counter to that what so ever, if there were an addon to counter miats, no one would care and we would all download that one, but there is -no- counter if you are an archer. None, nada , zilch.

Biro123

laced wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

What is important to remember here is that, today, we have an API that ZOS looked at just a few months ago, and the information ZOS felt should not be accessable, isn't.

I am not exactly sure what people are partying about. Let's wait until after ZOS says what they are going to do, then decide if the party is going to happen.

Oh I agree with you.. People are partying for no reason and reading more into Gina's words than what was actually posted.
I find it rather amusing.

I don't give a rats fuzzy arse what happens when it comes to this program. It doesn't bother me, nor has it ruined my game play when I choose to PVP because I don't give two craps if I do or don't die. I just PVP for fun and find it so simple compared to other end game aspects of ESO, so I don't need the add ons to help me, except maybe Crown Customizer, LOL. I don't care either if someone else kills me. I just port somewhere else and rapid on my mount back to the fight.

As I had said earlier, probably the easiest route ZOS should take is just prevent any add ons from working while in PVP. That way every one is on fair ground.
But how long is that going to keep people happy until they start whining again about something else? or begin blaming others for doing something they aren't doing because they can't admit their issue is their own lack of skills. It's never ending.

loling so hard. No addons in PvP. Is the objective to make everyone even more frustrated? lol

no, not at all, just the "cheating add-0ns" you can keep the working ones that dont cheat.
we just want to rid eso of the cheating ones.

Defined by who? There's clearly no consensus on what makes an add-on "cheating". There are staunch defenders of Miat's, as vocal as those who claim it is cheating. Is CyrHud cheating? Is Cyrodiil Alerts? I don't think so, but there are some who would argue otherwise.

It's not the community's place to determine what add-ons are and are not ok. We can raise awareness of ones that we think have a negative impact, like Miat's, but so long as an add-on is allowed by Zeni, and using data in the open API, it's not cheating.

Its actually pretty clear cut. You get a notification of someones attack even if they are in stealth and you arent targeting them and have the ability to react to it with no counter what so ever. That is cheating. The rest of the add on is fine, hell, itd even be fine if you were required to target someone to see the charge up timer, but as is, it is cheating. Murder and *** are still murder and *** even if it is legal or tolerated.

Yes, murder is murder if legal and tolerated. But cheating isn't cheating anymore if its legal and tolerated. That's the very definition of the word!

StackonClown

Adernath wrote: »

Just disable all addons during PvP, end of story.

detecting rampant custom compiled *ESO cheat engine* would also be great in PVP - end of bigger story

killimandrosb16_ESO

been reading some of the statements about how other games have alloved addons, yes they have. WAR is a good example. DAoC too. Same with GW2, or as Miat uses as an example in the interview, WoW. But NONE of these games would allow any addon making the game mechanics change. Do you advocating this truly believe eg. Blizzard would stand with the muffin in their hands and silently watch this happen? What impact would it have on their pvp base (which is shoddy as a pvp game but thats another topic), Changing the meta of their game. Making one class designed carefully to fit into the pvp meta obsolete. If such an addon was made in these games it would be considered an illegal 3rd party program, the users would get a punishment and programs would be added to detect such addons. The key word here is not what an addon can do or not, but how it influences with the intentions the developers had/has when creating the pvp/wvw aspect of the game.

SOme addons are convenient, some are more than useful and clearly gives the user an advantage. Here you have an addon which ultimately is directed to countering one of the developed intended classes in the game. That is something clearly different and unless the developers decide eliminating that archetype is fine (which I highly doubt as they made it firstplace) measures will be taken as soon as the devs are aware of how it is affecting THEIR game. Failing to do otherwise, would be hands down a solid proof of their own failure in not only creating a competitive game ambience/scene but also a lack of proffesionalism towards creating a competitive game scene all modestly hardcore to obsessed pvp gamers would shrug at and ditch in favour of developers and scenes more transparent and developer directed.

Developers made one mistake when allowing addons in the pvp lakes firstplace; they did not allocate the required fundings and resources needed to make sure the addons where within their standars of the game, and that is why the majority of the pvp player base is suffering now. The reason why making changes is taking long time and detecting functions within player made addons not corresponding with the developers ideas are left to the players themself. Add to the fact that the developers have not at any point been transparent as to what their intentions are, when it comes to mass pvp, what the rules are and the aim at to why there is a lake firstplace. Maybe they need programmers and developers wich only mission is to develope all aspects of pvp/wvw, probably. And very likely this is the reason the *** hit the fan, and the most dedicated pvp players and guilds are sceptical to say the least to enter the cyrodiil lakes.