ARE U HAPPY NOW ZOS IS DOING SOMETHING***Interview With Miat*** Lets Talk Add Ons, Cheating and Q/A

geonsocal

pretty sure it was my clever use of memes and gifs which helped turn the tide in this struggle...

just saying...



okay, okay - @JonnytheKing & @Dorrino you all did play a very small role in helping to bring zos to its senses...i guess...

Demycilian

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

OdinForge

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

There was a dream that was Tamriel. It shall be realized. These are the wishes of Paul Sage.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/20x73q/welcome_to_the_eso_ama/cg7ks9w/?context=3&st=j90b6cjg&sh=e4537592

https://youtu.be/12iorWj83P0

Tamriel remembers its own.

Never forget Sage.

Dorrino

Well, i did what i could to bring attention to this thread.

You're all welcome:)

*patiently waits for the mess that will being with the API change*

Nebthet78

Demycilian wrote: »

ZOS will actually be taking action against the addon cheating? So confused now.

Technically no... no action will be taken against the addon or it's users.

Gina basically said that how the information in the API can be used by those who create add ons in the future will be looked at, so that information ZOS feels should not be accessable will not be.

Riejael

Dorrino wrote: »

Well, i did what i could to bring attention to this thread.

You're all welcome:)

*patiently waits for the mess that will being with the API change*

Wouldn't it be a bit ironic if it was the keep/resource status and not the channeling with the user as the target part that was closed off?

No offense, but I will be glad if they do remove the API hooks for stealthing in range of the combat log. As you know I don't blame you for putting it in the addon. If they put the carrot in front of the player, can't fault them for going for it. But they should never have even sent that info to the combat log, or any action taken while stealthed.

Outside of stealth is fair game. That's been my opinion since December.

But if they don't. I won't be mad at them, it will provide some entertainment in the forums at the least.

geonsocal

Dorrino wrote: »

Well, i did what i could to bring attention to this thread.

You're all welcome:)

*patiently waits for the mess that will bring with the API change*

you were very cool senor, trying to ninja opponents coming at you from every which way

I'm quite sure this will dissuade you in the future from developing any more informational combat enhancing add-ons...

yeah, last we'll hear of miat

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

Well, i did what i could to bring attention to this thread.

You're all welcome:)

*patiently waits for the mess that will being with the API change*

That spin just made me dizzy.

Dorrino

Riejael wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Well, i did what i could to bring attention to this thread.

You're all welcome:)

*patiently waits for the mess that will being with the API change*

Wouldn't it be a bit ironic if it was the keep/resource status and not the channeling with the user as the target part that was closed off?

No offense, but I will be glad if they do remove the API hooks for stealthing in range of the combat log. As you know I don't blame you for putting it in the addon. If they put the carrot in front of the player, can't fault them for going for it. But they should never have even sent that info to the combat log, or any action taken while stealthed.

Outside of stealth is fair game. That's been my opinion since December.

But if they don't. I won't be mad at them, it will provide some entertainment in the forums at the least.

I expect them to mess it up in unimaginable ways:) As is tradition.

But personally, it's doesn't matter to me much.

geonsocal wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Well, i did what i could to bring attention to this thread.

You're all welcome:)

*patiently waits for the mess that will bring with the API change*

you were very cool senor, trying to ninja opponents coming at you from every which way

I'm quite sure this will dissuade you in the future from developing any more informational combat enhancing add-ons...

yeah, last we'll hear of miat

*sighs*

That's how people who are used to fight for their opinions understand me:)

Some people, like myself, do 'cool stuff' (tm), because they find it cool and worth existing.

But other people might disagree and they are in their right.

The most stupid thing would be to depend on other people approval and/or agreement to decide to do something or not.

Zos can disable whatever they want. It's their game.

This has nothing to do with my motivation to keep doing stuff i enjoy:)

They already closed some awesome features that the addon had. I added at least 5 new features after that.

This is not about the fight. This is about doing what you enjoy to do.

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Well, i did what i could to bring attention to this thread.

You're all welcome:)

*patiently waits for the mess that will being with the API change*

That spin just made me dizzy.

Because you still don't see that i never fought you or anybody else about the addon. It is awesome. I'm happy with the way i created it. But i already created it. If ZOS disables it i'll create something else if i'd find it enjoyable. It's irrelevant what people do with what i create. It's up to them. A gift can't be a gift if you start forcing people to use it properly or even use it at all.

Well, that's me. It doesn't have to be you. You are allowed to continue looking at this matter as on a fight with a winning condition:)

Deheart

Why was there even a question about this add-on being a cheat? I only became aware of this add-on today and after a quick google which informed me that part of the addon lets you detect opponent casting while they are in stealth it is obviously a cheat as it bypasses intended game mechanics and balances.

There are so many parts to this add-on that actually seem to access info in a questionable manner but don't seem to be an actual cheat but detection of stealthed opponents without using intended in game mechanics to do so out right crosses the line

Side thought, I wonder if the API changes will be ones that will break all the bots out there?

KingMagaw

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Well, i did what i could to bring attention to this thread.

You're all welcome:)

*patiently waits for the mess that will being with the API change*

That spin just made me dizzy.

Me also i laughed out loud

kyle.wilson

http://dilbert.com/

Sheezabeast

Betsararie

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

While we would like to keep this thread open with the understanding that there is a desire to discuss this content, we have had to remove quite a few comments from this thread for harassment and insults. We will be closing this thread if it cannot conduct a civil conversation without derailing into flaming other users.

The discussion in this thread has been fine

Deheart wrote: »

Why was there even a question about this add-on being a cheat? I only became aware of this add-on today and after a quick google which informed me that part of the addon lets you detect opponent casting while they are in stealth it is obviously a cheat as it bypasses intended game mechanics and balances.

There are so many parts to this add-on that actually seem to access info in a questionable manner but don't seem to be an actual cheat but detection of stealthed opponents without using intended in game mechanics to do so out right crosses the line

Side thought, I wonder if the API changes will be ones that will break all the bots out there?

The saddest part of all is you had so many people come in here and try say the addon didn't fall into the category of cheating. So many people coming in here and trying to justify it as perfectly fine and something that should actually be allowed.

Just the saddest thing. Had people furiously arguing against me that it's "not cheating waahhh boohoo". Just the most shocking thing. Amazing people aren't ashamed of this thing. I used it sure but only out of necessity I hated the thing and want to see it banned. But I don't like putting myself at a disadvantage >95% of people using it.

I haven't heard anything about ZOS doing something about it but the best thing would be to just ban the function that lets you see opponents attacks and just keep the part with the keep cap meter and the out-of-the-way ui stuff.

Gilvoth

so what about all those people [including miat] that said that everything was fine because they claim "Zenimax was perfectly happy with what is allowed in what can be used in add-ons"?
because now we see that was just not true.

Skoomah

This is a joke. ZOS of aint going to do jack squat. Let the flood gates open for more game breaking add ons that empty out PVP.

Jade1986

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to let everyone know, we have been keeping a close eye on this thread and everyone's feedback on these types of addons. We can tell you that we're planning to make some changes to our API to disallow some aspects that we're simply not comfortable with. This is all actively in progress, and we'll let you know exactly what we plan to change when we have a better idea of when we'll be rolling it out; we want to give our addon developers a warning so they have a chance to iterate.

That's amazing. Seriously, I just read this before going to bed, and now I can go to bed with a huge grin on my face. ^-^

Jade1986

Riejael wrote: »

Before anyone gets their hopes up. This was ZOS's first message about the addon back in December:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3607519/#Comment_3607519

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result. Here’s an explanation of how it works, and what it does and doesn’t do:

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon is built upon actions done by players that the combat log records. This includes sprinting, casting an ability, weapon swapping, drinking a potion, stealthing, etc. If a player executes any of those actions, basic messages are sent to the server and clients. This mod hooks into those notifications and filters them to give information about who is in the area. That info is then turned into either a KOS list determined by the player, a stealthier list, or simply an incremental value of players in the area (all are a rough estimation.)

The KOS list, specifically, is simply another layer on top of the above options, where the addon looks for specific players that you can choose to add to a list. When those players perform an action within your existing area of detection, you will be notified that they are in the area. You are not provided info on exactly where they are. Here are a few specific examples:

• If someone is in your existing area of detection and they fully enter stealth, the addon will notify you of the name of the player character that successfully went fully “hidden.”
• If someone is already stealthed and you’re traveling near then, or enter the area they were initially already stealthed in, you will not be notified of that player.
• If someone uses a Nightblade ability that results in them vanishing, they will not trigger the addon’s alert unless they enter the real “hidden” state (i.e. the eye on the HUD is closed).

Lastly this addon adds a kill spam list which shows you when someone has died in your existing area of detection, and to what ability. When you first get these messages, it simply says “Someone has died to Dark Flare.” When you start to get more information on the players around you, it adds that player name to the Saved Variables file for PVPAlerts.lua, then starts to add that information into your UI while playing.

Note that in all the above examples, you are not notified of exactly where the player is. This addon does not add a little blip to your map or compass, and does not give you an overlay that points out specifically where players are. This addon is not radar, a Doppler, or any other means of giving away another player’s exact position.

We want to thank everyone for sharing your concerns with us about this addon.

If they actually DO something about the API calls. Great.

But history shows they haven't taken much action on the subject. But we'll see.

Their stance has clearly changed since then, it has been commented on multiple times in the last month from ZoS. So as long as something is in the works, I am happy, and I won't drop the game.

Jade1986

Recremen wrote: »

Incidentally, while you're taking stuff out, would you consider putting in group-member stat trackers beyond health? Magicka, stamina, and especially ultimate are all very important things for group members to know about, especially raid leads, especially in PvP. Currently there's an ult-tracking addon out but it jumps through a lot of hoops to do it and messes with map pings to the point of frustration, and the clicking noises have driven said addon users to disable UI sounds. There's a lot of pressure to run the addon in competitive PvP groups and it would be great to just have a standardized API element for it instead of what's being used now. And I like my UI sounds and don't want to have to disable them to run the addon. :-(

They already limited the api not to allow stuff like that a while back, it will not be added.

Biro123

Blanco wrote: »

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

While we would like to keep this thread open with the understanding that there is a desire to discuss this content, we have had to remove quite a few comments from this thread for harassment and insults. We will be closing this thread if it cannot conduct a civil conversation without derailing into flaming other users.

The discussion in this thread has been fine

Deheart wrote: »

Why was there even a question about this add-on being a cheat? I only became aware of this add-on today and after a quick google which informed me that part of the addon lets you detect opponent casting while they are in stealth it is obviously a cheat as it bypasses intended game mechanics and balances.

There are so many parts to this add-on that actually seem to access info in a questionable manner but don't seem to be an actual cheat but detection of stealthed opponents without using intended in game mechanics to do so out right crosses the line

Side thought, I wonder if the API changes will be ones that will break all the bots out there?

The saddest part of all is you had so many people come in here and try say the addon didn't fall into the category of cheating. So many people coming in here and trying to justify it as perfectly fine and something that should actually be allowed.

Just the saddest thing. Had people furiously arguing against me that it's "not cheating waahhh boohoo". Just the most shocking thing. Amazing people aren't ashamed of this thing. I used it sure but only out of necessity I hated the thing and want to see it banned. But I don't like putting myself at a disadvantage >95% of people using it.

I haven't heard anything about ZOS doing something about it but the best thing would be to just ban the function that lets you see opponents attacks and just keep the part with the keep cap meter and the out-of-the-way ui stuff.

Wow - so you believe it is cheating, yet used it anyway? And have a go at those who don't think its cheating..?? and yes - it IS a grey area. And no, zos have still NOT said for definite that its cheating.

Betsararie

Biro123 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

While we would like to keep this thread open with the understanding that there is a desire to discuss this content, we have had to remove quite a few comments from this thread for harassment and insults. We will be closing this thread if it cannot conduct a civil conversation without derailing into flaming other users.

The discussion in this thread has been fine

Deheart wrote: »

Why was there even a question about this add-on being a cheat? I only became aware of this add-on today and after a quick google which informed me that part of the addon lets you detect opponent casting while they are in stealth it is obviously a cheat as it bypasses intended game mechanics and balances.

There are so many parts to this add-on that actually seem to access info in a questionable manner but don't seem to be an actual cheat but detection of stealthed opponents without using intended in game mechanics to do so out right crosses the line

Side thought, I wonder if the API changes will be ones that will break all the bots out there?

The saddest part of all is you had so many people come in here and try say the addon didn't fall into the category of cheating. So many people coming in here and trying to justify it as perfectly fine and something that should actually be allowed.

Just the saddest thing. Had people furiously arguing against me that it's "not cheating waahhh boohoo". Just the most shocking thing. Amazing people aren't ashamed of this thing. I used it sure but only out of necessity I hated the thing and want to see it banned. But I don't like putting myself at a disadvantage >95% of people using it.

I haven't heard anything about ZOS doing something about it but the best thing would be to just ban the function that lets you see opponents attacks and just keep the part with the keep cap meter and the out-of-the-way ui stuff.

Wow - so you believe it is cheating, yet used it anyway? And have a go at those who don't think its cheating..?? and yes - it IS a grey area. And no, zos have still NOT said for definite that its cheating.

Oh yeah. I don't like being at a disadvantage. So if it is available I am left with no option but to use it.

But, if it weren't allowed, ya know, then nobody could use it and I feel that would be much better all around.

Deheart

Biro123 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

While we would like to keep this thread open with the understanding that there is a desire to discuss this content, we have had to remove quite a few comments from this thread for harassment and insults. We will be closing this thread if it cannot conduct a civil conversation without derailing into flaming other users.

The discussion in this thread has been fine

Deheart wrote: »

Why was there even a question about this add-on being a cheat? I only became aware of this add-on today and after a quick google which informed me that part of the addon lets you detect opponent casting while they are in stealth it is obviously a cheat as it bypasses intended game mechanics and balances.

There are so many parts to this add-on that actually seem to access info in a questionable manner but don't seem to be an actual cheat but detection of stealthed opponents without using intended in game mechanics to do so out right crosses the line

Side thought, I wonder if the API changes will be ones that will break all the bots out there?

The saddest part of all is you had so many people come in here and try say the addon didn't fall into the category of cheating. So many people coming in here and trying to justify it as perfectly fine and something that should actually be allowed.

Just the saddest thing. Had people furiously arguing against me that it's "not cheating waahhh boohoo". Just the most shocking thing. Amazing people aren't ashamed of this thing. I used it sure but only out of necessity I hated the thing and want to see it banned. But I don't like putting myself at a disadvantage >95% of people using it.

I haven't heard anything about ZOS doing something about it but the best thing would be to just ban the function that lets you see opponents attacks and just keep the part with the keep cap meter and the out-of-the-way ui stuff.

Wow - so you believe it is cheating, yet used it anyway? And have a go at those who don't think its cheating..?? and yes - it IS a grey area. And no, zos have still NOT said for definite that its cheating.

Yea, thats the problem ain't it, in order to have any chance at being competitive with cheaters, you have to cheat. It's a reasonable response when ZOS is reluctant to mess with their api witch allows people to use add-ons to bypass game mechanics.

And of course they won't say for definite that its cheating, ZOS hardly ever does in any official capacity.

silky_soft

Belive it when I see it. They won't fix anything, they can't even prevent CE. He's already openly admitted to using an exploit in the API. After they change it, why would he tell them about another.

You know how they will fix it? Certified addons. They'll make an app store, we'll have to sub or pay crowns for them. Why? Because ZO$.

silky_soft

Biro123 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

While we would like to keep this thread open with the understanding that there is a desire to discuss this content, we have had to remove quite a few comments from this thread for harassment and insults. We will be closing this thread if it cannot conduct a civil conversation without derailing into flaming other users.

The discussion in this thread has been fine

Deheart wrote: »

Why was there even a question about this add-on being a cheat? I only became aware of this add-on today and after a quick google which informed me that part of the addon lets you detect opponent casting while they are in stealth it is obviously a cheat as it bypasses intended game mechanics and balances.

There are so many parts to this add-on that actually seem to access info in a questionable manner but don't seem to be an actual cheat but detection of stealthed opponents without using intended in game mechanics to do so out right crosses the line

Side thought, I wonder if the API changes will be ones that will break all the bots out there?

The saddest part of all is you had so many people come in here and try say the addon didn't fall into the category of cheating. So many people coming in here and trying to justify it as perfectly fine and something that should actually be allowed.

Just the saddest thing. Had people furiously arguing against me that it's "not cheating waahhh boohoo". Just the most shocking thing. Amazing people aren't ashamed of this thing. I used it sure but only out of necessity I hated the thing and want to see it banned. But I don't like putting myself at a disadvantage >95% of people using it.

I haven't heard anything about ZOS doing something about it but the best thing would be to just ban the function that lets you see opponents attacks and just keep the part with the keep cap meter and the out-of-the-way ui stuff.

Wow - so you believe it is cheating, yet used it anyway? And have a go at those who don't think its cheating..?? and yes - it IS a grey area. And no, zos have still NOT said for definite that its cheating.

It's not Grey. Something that is not intended is an exploit. Using an exploit is against TOS, more commonly know as cheating. Cheating gets you banned*.

*But using cheat engine is OK, you just get a 3 day perma ban.

Betsararie

silky_soft wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

While we would like to keep this thread open with the understanding that there is a desire to discuss this content, we have had to remove quite a few comments from this thread for harassment and insults. We will be closing this thread if it cannot conduct a civil conversation without derailing into flaming other users.

The discussion in this thread has been fine

Deheart wrote: »

Why was there even a question about this add-on being a cheat? I only became aware of this add-on today and after a quick google which informed me that part of the addon lets you detect opponent casting while they are in stealth it is obviously a cheat as it bypasses intended game mechanics and balances.

There are so many parts to this add-on that actually seem to access info in a questionable manner but don't seem to be an actual cheat but detection of stealthed opponents without using intended in game mechanics to do so out right crosses the line

Side thought, I wonder if the API changes will be ones that will break all the bots out there?

The saddest part of all is you had so many people come in here and try say the addon didn't fall into the category of cheating. So many people coming in here and trying to justify it as perfectly fine and something that should actually be allowed.

Just the saddest thing. Had people furiously arguing against me that it's "not cheating waahhh boohoo". Just the most shocking thing. Amazing people aren't ashamed of this thing. I used it sure but only out of necessity I hated the thing and want to see it banned. But I don't like putting myself at a disadvantage >95% of people using it.

I haven't heard anything about ZOS doing something about it but the best thing would be to just ban the function that lets you see opponents attacks and just keep the part with the keep cap meter and the out-of-the-way ui stuff.

Wow - so you believe it is cheating, yet used it anyway? And have a go at those who don't think its cheating..?? and yes - it IS a grey area. And no, zos have still NOT said for definite that its cheating.

It's not Grey. Something that is not intended is an exploit. Using an exploit is against TOS, more commonly know as cheating. Cheating gets you banned*.

*But using cheat engine is OK, you just get a 3 day perma ban.

Yeah, it's not a gray area. Like, who was saying it's a gray area?

If such advantages were offered by anything other than an approved addon they would be labeled as an exploit or "cheating".

So now that they are offered by an approved addon, they're no longer cheating? No, that doesn't make sense. Cheating is still cheating whether or not it's allowed. Just as stealing is still stealing whether or not it is allowed..

Ackwalan

This isn't the first time "dev's are looking into something". Only to have weeks, months and years go by with no change and no update. ZOS's commitment and communication is at best, poor.

kyle.wilson

Blanco wrote: »

Yeah, it's not a gray area. Like, who was saying it's a gray area?

If such advantages were offered by anything other than an approved addon they would be labeled as an exploit or "cheating".

So now that they are offered by an approved addon, they're no longer cheating? No, that doesn't make sense. Cheating is still cheating whether or not it's allowed. Just as stealing is still stealing whether or not it is allowed..

I'm not understanding your thoughts.
If stealing is "allowed", by definition its not stealing.

I'm curious if we would get more input from ZOS if the add-on Raid Notifier were included.
It is another addon that allows players to ignore game cues, and play with training wheels.

Betsararie

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Yeah, it's not a gray area. Like, who was saying it's a gray area?

If such advantages were offered by anything other than an approved addon they would be labeled as an exploit or "cheating".

So now that they are offered by an approved addon, they're no longer cheating? No, that doesn't make sense. Cheating is still cheating whether or not it's allowed. Just as stealing is still stealing whether or not it is allowed..

I'm not understanding your thoughts.
If stealing is "allowed", by definition its not stealing.

I'm curious if we would get more input from ZOS if the add-on Raid Notifier were included.
It is another addon that allows players to ignore game cues, and play with training wheels.

That's not true you're just flat out wrong

If I steal all of your stuff and I don't get in trouble I still stole all of your stuff. So I'm not arguing this with you anymore and wasting my time more

kyle.wilson

Blanco wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Yeah, it's not a gray area. Like, who was saying it's a gray area?

If such advantages were offered by anything other than an approved addon they would be labeled as an exploit or "cheating".

So now that they are offered by an approved addon, they're no longer cheating? No, that doesn't make sense. Cheating is still cheating whether or not it's allowed. Just as stealing is still stealing whether or not it is allowed..

I'm not understanding your thoughts.
If stealing is "allowed", by definition its not stealing.

I'm curious if we would get more input from ZOS if the add-on Raid Notifier were included.
It is another addon that allows players to ignore game cues, and play with training wheels.

That's not true you're just flat out wrong

If I steal all of your stuff and I don't get in trouble I still stole all of your stuff. So I'm not arguing this with you anymore and wasting my time more

Steal - take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
allow - 1. give (someone) permission to do something.

I'm dead set against the API allowing addons like Miats, but your example was insane.
Stealing without getting caught isn't "allowing" it.

Betsararie

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Yeah, it's not a gray area. Like, who was saying it's a gray area?

If such advantages were offered by anything other than an approved addon they would be labeled as an exploit or "cheating".

So now that they are offered by an approved addon, they're no longer cheating? No, that doesn't make sense. Cheating is still cheating whether or not it's allowed. Just as stealing is still stealing whether or not it is allowed..

I'm not understanding your thoughts.
If stealing is "allowed", by definition its not stealing.

I'm curious if we would get more input from ZOS if the add-on Raid Notifier were included.
It is another addon that allows players to ignore game cues, and play with training wheels.

That's not true you're just flat out wrong

If I steal all of your stuff and I don't get in trouble I still stole all of your stuff. So I'm not arguing this with you anymore and wasting my time more

Steal - take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
allow - 1. give (someone) permission to do something.

I'm dead set against the API allowing addons like Miats, but your example was insane.
Stealing without getting caught isn't "allowing" it.

No you just don't understand really at all if stealing is somehow allowed or "legal" and someone proceeds to take all of your stuff, in my opinion that would still be stealing.

I didn't say anything about merely not getting caught. You just don't understand. You don't. Just don't try to.