Lexxypwns wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Wrath removal?

Gina said so on eso live. They're removing wrath, we don't yet know what is going to replace it

This is the direct quote

Gina wrote:

We are replacing Wrath for something called Revitalize which increases the resources that the heavy attacks restore. And then we are making changes to Rapid Mending also, since all that is being moved over to Revitalize.

What I want to know is why does everyone assume just because you use 1hd/shield you're a Block Bot

Lets take a fairly standard Stamina DK setup

Werewolf Hide/Fury/Bloodspawn

Most and I say pretty much damn near everyone of them...don't run Sturdy on that setup...you run impen

That is not a block bot setup, yet every time I see a post about how Heavy is overpowered in PvP, you have a bunch of people talking about how you have these heavy users running around blocking everything and doing massive damage.

These are TWO different setups....They're not the same..

Xsorus wrote: »

What I want to know is why does everyone assume just because you use 1hd/shield you're a Block Bot

Lets take a fairly standard Stamina DK setup

Werewolf Hide/Fury/Bloodspawn

Most and I say pretty much damn near everyone of them...don't run Sturdy on that setup...you run impen

That is not a block bot setup, yet every time I see a post about how Heavy is overpowered in PvP, you have a bunch of people talking about how you have these heavy users running around blocking everything and doing massive damage.

These are TWO different setups....They're not the same..

It's not the perma block Stam dks, I havnt met one that could bring me near death. It's the mag dks perma blocking casting all their dots and Buffs Finishing with a leap never releasing block. I'm a solo player so I usually avoid them since my med armor dk doesn't have the deeps to affect the perma blocking. Either way a player shouldnt be able in my opinion to perma block indefinitely and still have really high dps

I can't say I am sad to see the nerfs come through.

I've dropped a full bust combo on many a DK only to have them laugh it off and then turn around and do the same to me a few seconds later.

I agree that the changes do hurt them more than most due to a lack of other defensive utility, but on the other hand it means that there are now actual trade offs for stamina users between medium and heavy. Up until now the difference was pick medium to go fast, or pick heavy and don't die.

Now if you go heavy you also need to sacrifice damage and pick between a burst heal and snare removal.

Finally, cutting out the unhealthy mechanics also lets you bring classes up to far in a way that feels more fair to play as and against, though that is up to Zos

Ps, Fortified Brass + Impregnable armour + Bloodspawn should be just as stupidly tanky as current builds are even while running 5 medium. Food for thought.

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Every DK abuses what they had going for them and now they get the nerf bat up the *&*(.
GOOD , that's what you get for abusing that crap in Cyro constantly. Keep abusing the rest of your skills and see what happens .
Im glad they did it. In fact they need to start working on the Blocking builds next . You want to constantly block build? Then your damage should be non existent. Pick one way or the other but you shouldn't have both. Hope they keep monitoring these things.

before I was a dw heavy armor magdk and the way things are looking because of heavy armor nerf I'm going to become a perma blocking magdk in light armor unless the new passive really helps sustain. dks go this route because we have to if we want a chance to be viable.

I do think wrath gone is good for overall but dks are in such a bad spot they have to use the most crutches out of any class like perma blocking and vampire S&B ult

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Well, stamDKs are top in PVE and PVP, so it's probably time they get nerfed.

Says the dude who doesn't have a single stamina char in his signature.

Derra wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Well, stamDKs are top in PVE and PVP, so it's probably time they get nerfed.

Says the dude who doesn't have a single stamina char in his signature.

The times i was actually afraid of a stamDK are long gone. I think that was with orsinium when they were still rocking medium armor setups.

Heavy were pretty much unkillable but most of the time you could stall any 1v1 (atleast on sorc).

On topic: I think stamsorc and DK should get a stamina whip and crystal blast should become a stam morph by now. You can´t run mediumarmor without a proper class anytimed ability.

I don’t think stamina whip would ever compare to heroic slash for a stamina dk.

Probably get more DW stam dks though, and it might replace dizzying swing.

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Well, stamDKs are top in PVE and PVP, so it's probably time they get nerfed.

Says the dude who doesn't have a single stamina char in his signature.

The times i was actually afraid of a stamDK are long gone. I think that was with orsinium when they were still rocking medium armor setups.

Heavy were pretty much unkillable but most of the time you could stall any 1v1 (atleast on sorc).

On topic: I think stamsorc and DK should get a stamina whip and crystal blast should become a stam morph by now. You can´t run mediumarmor without a proper class anytimed ability.

I don’t think stamina whip would ever compare to heroic slash for a stamina dk.

Probably get more DW stam dks though, and it might replace dizzying swing.

No idea. I personally have very little issue with DKs using heroic as they´re basically bound to run into resource issues with an anytimer costing more than most defensive abilities.

It’s similar cost compared to most class abilities I think.

But we’re talking about an ability that snares, applies minor maim, does good damage, and gives minor heroism.

IAVITNI wrote: »

I agree that overall this is a healthy balance change, but a blanket nerf needs to be accompanied by some sort of compensation to classes that suffer more from it. Stam dk and stam sorc are pretty much done for in PvP without snare removal or adequate burst heal. The only workable solo stam dk builds usually rely on shield ultimate which is going to get nerfed. There is not real viable alternative to keep them at a relatively similar power level.

IMO dk should be a class that was not affected by the resource changes from percentages to flat numbers. If you revert battle roar to percentage base, it would make balancing DKs a lot better.

One of the underlying reasons for this games imbalance is the fact that many of the core concepts of classes have been adjusted slowly each patch, throwing the class synergies out of synch. There was better balance earlier on because he game was created balanced. If you keep changing core mechanics to address minor issues instead of the issues directly (ex alchemist change) the game will be impossible to balance. It's simply a case of inability to commit short term resources for long term gains. In other words, corporate.

It's interesting that you mention stam sorc there. I've been running a medium armour stam sorc without rally or shuffle for the past couple of months and it has been working rather well. Granted, I haven't tried to 1vX or anything but solo and small group play it works rather well.

Still, my approach is wait and see how the meta develops next patch, and see how the tankier Stam classes are doing. Potentially adding a small damage buff to leap and throwing in minor evasion somewhere would be good starting points.

melloni_aleb16_ESO wrote: »

all against Dks , it hilariuous

Imo the problem is ZOS looking at stamDK in pve seeing them dominate dps for the most part - but they don´t see that the class can´t to that in pvp.

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Well, stamDKs are top in PVE and PVP, so it's probably time they get nerfed.

Says the dude who doesn't have a single stamina char in his signature.

The times i was actually afraid of a stamDK are long gone. I think that was with orsinium when they were still rocking medium armor setups.

Heavy were pretty much unkillable but most of the time you could stall any 1v1 (atleast on sorc).

On topic: I think stamsorc and DK should get a stamina whip and crystal blast should become a stam morph by now. You can´t run mediumarmor without a proper class anytimed ability.

I don’t think stamina whip would ever compare to heroic slash for a stamina dk.

Probably get more DW stam dks though, and it might replace dizzying swing.

No idea. I personally have very little issue with DKs using heroic as they´re basically bound to run into resource issues with an anytimer costing more than most defensive abilities.

It’s similar cost compared to most class abilities I think.

But we’re talking about an ability that snares, applies minor maim, does good damage, and gives minor heroism.

It´s about 35% more expensive than other skills - which is ok for what it does but as an anytimed ability is (only from experience playing against it) too expensive.
People usually don´t keep up the pressure well enough using it.

Kilandros wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

necronyteub17_ESO wrote: »

Every DK abuses what they had going for them and now they get the nerf bat up the *&*(.
GOOD , that's what you get for abusing that crap in Cyro constantly. Keep abusing the rest of your skills and see what happens .
Im glad they did it. In fact they need to start working on the Blocking builds next . You want to constantly block build? Then your damage should be non existent. Pick one way or the other but you shouldn't have both. Hope they keep monitoring these things.

lol, ok. Maybe if DKs had some sort of defense other than block then we wouldn't need to rely on it. Sorry we don't have Streak and Shields and Cloak to carry us.

While I agree to an extent, streak/shields/cloak all require thoughtful, moderated usage. When you build into permablocking you can just tape down that right mouse button. I know you still have to ulti, still have to heal, still have to do several things to stay alive, but having played everything in the game, I really think that permablocking is the easiest thing to manage, and does need tuning.

That being said, ZOS is going about fixing what people perceive to be wrong with DKs (because, judging by some of these responses, those people haven't played a DK) in 110% the wrong way. I think part of the problem is how little they seem to actually care about PVP, compared to PVE. I am mostly inferring this under the assumption that they are hesitant to nerf blocking further due to the design of trials that basically require permablocking. Changing that would require changing the content radically - making it possible to drop block by adding in grace periods / other mechanics that add another layer of complexity to the design.

But guess what? Players don't hit as hard as raid bosses. So having the 'tank' aspects of player design tuned around taking 80k hits and surviving is incredibly unhealthy for PVP, and it shows.

Before HA gets nerfed, for the love of god, and as others have said here, get a clue on what the actual issues are, ZOS. You should know, it's your game. If you don't know, please get in touch with people that do. Many players here on the forums and out in the community at large would be more than happy to point you all in the right direction. There are simpler things that can be changed to make this game more fun for everyone. Removing wrath doesn't even register on the list of things that are wrong.

And like everyone else who opines on the permablocking DK/Templar issue you pretend that all DKs and Templars who utilize block are built to permablock. That's utter BS. There are lots of DKs and Templars (like myself) who would rather not rely on block like back in the good old days when we had Miss Chance on Cinder Storm and Miss Chance on Blinding Flashes.

The point that you miss is that classes like DKs and Templars literally HAVE NO CHOICE but to utilize block as a defensive mechanic. And while I disagree entirely with your statement that streak/shields/cloak require "thoughtful" usage (I mean, truly lol worthy stuff considering it's far less penalizing to perma shield stack than it is to perma block, but I digress), the point, once again, is that those classes (sorc/nb) have defensive mechanics that are separate from block. I don't want to run S/B on my DK but what am I supposed to do when I get outnumbered? Mist around indefinitely? Be reasonable. The problem isn't that DKs enjoy blocking the problem is that DKs have to block.

If Sorcs didn't have Streak and NBs didn't have cloak, guess what? They'd be block bots too.

So if you want to fix blocking you FIRST need to start by giving DKs and Templars defensive abilities like they were originally designed to have. That right there would probably ween out a sizeable portion of the block community. I would much rather use skills defensively than be beholden to block.

Then, if you want to fix permablocking then you need to tone down the outrageous blocking modifiers currently available. The ease with which one can stack 19% block from CP (49 pts) and 32% block (traits) is completely ridiculous.

But if you nerf block considerably (which should happen eventually) before you give DK and Templar some class-based defense, then you can basically say goodbye to those classes in PvP.

Agree with this entire statement.

And I'll say this yet again: PVE and PVP combat are obviously not the same beast and they need separate balancing. Figure it out ZOS.

Xsorus wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

What I want to know is why does everyone assume just because you use 1hd/shield you're a Block Bot

Lets take a fairly standard Stamina DK setup

Werewolf Hide/Fury/Bloodspawn

Most and I say pretty much damn near everyone of them...don't run Sturdy on that setup...you run impen

That is not a block bot setup, yet every time I see a post about how Heavy is overpowered in PvP, you have a bunch of people talking about how you have these heavy users running around blocking everything and doing massive damage.

These are TWO different setups....They're not the same..

It's not the perma block Stam dks, I havnt met one that could bring me near death. It's the mag dks perma blocking casting all their dots and Buffs Finishing with a leap never releasing block. I'm a solo player so I usually avoid them since my med armor dk doesn't have the deeps to affect the perma blocking. Either way a player shouldnt be able in my opinion to perma block indefinitely and still have really high dps

See that’s a problem I have; people are saying heavy armor is overpowered because ravaged and fury with permablocking; ravager and fury aren’t perms block setups and magicka dks you’re talking about don’t run those sets either. If you want to perma block on a magicka dk it’s generally impregnable armor with sturdy... and you can do that in light and be far more effective then heavy armor.

So what I think is people are dying to dks; and grouping them all together in some pile of builds and just not accepting they died.

Let's consider the block calculation:

BlockCost = (((180 + 30*EffectiveLevel)*(1 - Item.Sturdy)*(1 + CP.BlockCost))*(1 + Set.BlockCost + Skill.BlockCost + Buff.BlockCost) + Item.BlockCost)*(1 + Skill2.BlockCost)

So, full sturdy, 100 points into shadow ward CP tree and 1h/shield gives us a block cost of around 700. That can be triggered 4 times every second meaning when you're pressured even in this so called magdk permablock build is costing 2,800 stamina per second. You're not blocking very long like that outnumbered and you've sacrificed any and all damage sets already to get this far. The problem comes when you add in the block cost glyphs. That's where the real perma blocking comes from. Take a look at the calculation above and note that ITEM block cost is taken off second to last... after all major % reductions. A gold shielding glyph reduces the cost of block by 203. Run three of those and your block cost is now 95. That's where the big difference comes from. That's why no matter what ZOS does, such as the recent block nerfs, you will harm the normal player using block and always have perma blocking tanks. Changing the block cost from 2x per second to 4x per second didn't do anything to change the real perma tanks because they can get their block cost down to under 100.

Now, any magdk doing this isn't doing damage. This whole story people try to prop up that magdk can perma block these huge numbers and then kill people is ridiculous unless they are just absolutely the worst and most unaware players who are not healing, not using unblockable CC's such as fear, etc. MagDK can be a great pug stomper but its abilities have some of the highest costs, lowest damage modifiers, and the class has terrible mobility, useless and watered down defensive abilities, no execute, and relies heavily on DoT which is fairly useless in PvP. Not to mention it has some of the absolute worst passives in the game and the only ones worth a damn continue to be nerfed. Please, go look at DK passives compared to sorc, nightblade, and warden.

I play both StamDK and MagDK as well as other classes and I can tell you MagDK is the hardest to 1vX on by far and whenever I am on my other classes I literally just ignore the DKs and leave them for last because they're never a threat. Watch out for leap, maybe, that's the only burst you're going to see and it's predictable as hell.

People will forever complain about DKs, stam or mag, because we are forced to build tanky and that's annoying to people. Our class has been watered down horrendously over the years. I run 1h/shield resto and do not perma block and lean towards a high damage setup. That's my style and I find i have more success (and fun) with it solo than the impreg/desert rose build that is popular right now... and I still get accused of being a perma blocking piece of *** even when I only time my blocks to avoid burst, etc. Instead of ZOS fixing the DK class and giving them more options they continue to pigeon hole them into tanks and then everyone wonders why they're so tanky.

In summary:

- Change the block cost calculation to remove flat value glyphs before % values (like magicka/stamina cost reduction).
- Nerf the effectiveness of sets like 7th legion, fury, etc.

After that, you will see both stam and magicka dk are just one-dimensional watered down classes who are but a shell of their former selves crutching on game mechanics because their own class passives and actives just plain suck.

Kilandros wrote: »

I love how people are just railing against DKs for blocking all the time. THAT'S BECAUSE ZOS GUTTED DK DEFENSE. Instead of complaining about DKs, why don't you complain about the design decisions that have pigeonholed DKs into a tank role?

I actually don't understand what's ppl big issue with he so called permablock..