Random dungeons not random

krachall · October 2017

I'm trying to level a new character and running randoms. The last thing I want to run with a new character in a PUG is a DLC dungeon. But there are only 6 so my odds of getting a DLC dungeon are 20%. I'm OK with that. And I actually don't mind ICP, Bloodroot Forge and Faulkreath Hold. So there are only 3 DLC dungeons I don't want to run, WGT, Cradle of Shadows, Mazzatun.

My last 8 have been:

WGT
WGT
WGT
CoS
WGT
COS
Mazzatun
Mazzatun

Is "random" in the title not meant to indicate "random?"

PlagueSD · October 2017

People may be queuing for those to farm gear. I very rarely select all dungeons when queue. I mostly just stick with whatever the pledges are that day and don't worry about the others.

DocFrost72 · October 2017

With six dlc dungeons, your odds are actually 50% at level ten of getting a DLC dungeon. Base game dungeons carry an outdated level requirement (waaaaay back before 1tamriel, there were levels associated to more than gear), so you get the first three (stories I and II), and all DLC dungeons until level 14 or 17 (been too long to remember, but iirc it should be 17, 24, 31, 38, and just VoM at 45 based on the zone each dungeon is located in).

sdtlc · October 2017

The "old" Dungeons have a level restriction on the, what looks them out of the rng-Pool, this makes the pool chance for the dlc dungeons.

grkkll · October 2017

I'd like to see a select all tick box and then the facility to deselect individual dungeons, the deselect is already there

zaria · October 2017

I thought 3 nIcP in an row was weird, "you go directly to jail" I said in chat yesterday.
First random normal + pledge on templar: IcP, then later I wanted to test my new stamblade in dungeon IcP, yesterday only the stamblade IcP again.

eso_nya · October 2017

Whenever i feel like doing pledges, i tick vet non-dlc and normal dlc dungeons.

Sometimes, i try to find out sth like "can mazzatun motifs drop in normal?". The day it was pledge i took it on 7 of my toons and than pugged them on the same and the following days.

I carried a lot of level 10 ~20s thru that place who somehow all looked like they had hoped for a quick fungal 1 xD

I would assume, when u pug random normal u have a ~95% chance to get that days dlc-pledge and a 50% chance to get the previous days dlc-pledge.

Workaround: Find someone who doesnt have eso+ and didnt buy the dlcs. Make it lead, let it q.

Loc2262 · October 2017

Yeah with more and more DLC dungeons getting added to the pool, I think it's really about time ZOS introduced some option of excluding them, especially for low-level players.

CalydorEstalon · October 2017

Not sure about Mazzatun and CoS, but WGT is where Spellpower Cure drops, so pretty much anyone gearing a healer is going to select that deliberately eventually.

Taylor_MB · October 2017

You've confused "even distribution" with random.

Your results are random. Your expectations are even distribution.

---

It also depends what other people are queuing for, it doesn't select a "random" dungeon for you and then waits until there is a group to fit you in. It fits you into the first group it can provided you are first in queue. So in a way you are right, it's not random.

Merlin13KAGL · October 2017

The good news is, 'Specific' actually is specific.

Use the other option if you want to exclude dungeons from your list. You'll get more bang for your buck anyway, as you'll get to complete the quests and get the skill points - something that won't happen when you repeat the dungeons via random.

RDF, first and foremost, is simply looking for an open slot that needs filling, so on pledge days, you're going to get pulled in pledge related dungeons half way through a lot more often. If by some off chance there are no blanks in existing groups, that's when it makes a new group and actually randomizes the selection.

SpearDusk · October 2017

I remember I got Mazzatun as the first ever random dungeon for my lvl 11 warden healer with lvl 1 training gear. Thankfully we managed it lol

Elsonso · October 2017

I doubt that asking for a random dungeon means that they actually randomly pick a dungeon in every case.

When you queue for a random dungeon, what ZOS should be thinking is that you don't care what dungeon you get. If there are people queuing for WGT, and you happen along with an "I don't care", your "random" dungeon will be WGT because they need someone for WGT. Since it might be a long wait for someone to come along requesting the same specific dungeons, if I were writing this, this is how I would do it.

I would imagine that the only time your dungeon is actually random is when you are grouped with 3 others who also picked "random dungeon".

Loc2262 · October 2017

@lordrichter: Yes, that is exactly how also I suppose it's being handled. So if many low-level players are in the queue, your chance to get a DLC dungeon becomes higher and higher.

MasterLenman · October 2017

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The good news is, 'Specific' actually is specific.

Use the other option if you want to exclude dungeons from your list. You'll get more bang for your buck anyway, as you'll get to complete the quests and get the skill points - something that won't happen when you repeat the dungeons via random.

RDF, first and foremost, is simply looking for an open slot that needs filling, so on pledge days, you're going to get pulled in pledge related dungeons half way through a lot more often. If by some off chance there are no blanks in existing groups, that's when it makes a new group and actually randomizes the selection.

+insightful, that's how the selection works.
The problem is that you miss out on the large daily XP bonus and undaunted reward. After collecting the skill points, that's the main reason I want to run random dungeons on new chars.

There have been so many threads on this topic, I think there was a new one every three days for the past weeks. The main request is to add an "exclude DLC dungeons" option for the daily random. And nothing ever happens. So don't get your hopes up.

Merlin13KAGL · October 2017

MasterLenman wrote: »

The problem is that you miss out on the large daily XP bonus and undaunted reward. After collecting the skill points, that's the main reason I want to run random dungeons on new chars.

@MasterLenman , understandable. You have to weigh the odds as to which one is worth more to you at that point, and bear in mind, if your group is unable to complete, there are no bonus rewards to be had.

Regarding the daily, you can get the same bonus XP from norm and the mailed reward is simply 4 less soul gems and one tier lower quality item. If it's anything but jewelry, you're looking at a max of 2400g upgrade cost.

EDIT: typo

zaria · October 2017

Taylor_MB wrote: »

You've confused "even distribution" with random.

Your results are random. Your expectations are even distribution.

---

It also depends what other people are queuing for, it doesn't select a "random" dungeon for you and then waits until there is a group to fit you in. It fits you into the first group it can provided you are first in queue. So in a way you are right, it's not random.

Yes, for one plenty of players do the standard dungeons in vet but the dlc in normal, so during pledge you get more people wanting the normal dlc.
Now finaly for an final insult for the low level player, the only pledge dungeon he might get into is the dlc one,

Storymaster · October 2017

You are queuing into what has been queued for. If all four people have selected random, it will be random. But if you have some folks selecting a specific dungeon, random queues will be lassoed into the specific queues. This is probably what is happening to you. You are getting lassoed into dungeon chains where you are queuing at the same time someone is doing a specific queue to grind for gear drops.

krachall · October 2017

Good stuff. Thanks for the insight. Now that I've got your attention, how about another question on randomization?

Monster shoulder sets. Are they evenly distributed? I'm asking because with 54 keys used in Urgalag's chest, I've only seen 3 Velidreth's shoulders. I've pulled 8-12 of the other 5 items.

Nestor · October 2017

krachall wrote: »

Good stuff. Thanks for the insight. Now that I've got your attention, how about another question on randomization?

Monster shoulder sets. Are they evenly distributed? I'm asking because with 54 keys used in Urgalag's chest, I've only seen 3 Velidreth's shoulders. I've pulled 8-12 of the other 5 items.

Here is what I have noticed about the Keys. If you pull say, a Molag Kena on the first key, your going to pull more Molag Kena's if you use more keys right away. So, if I get a good choice the first time, I use up 3 or 4 keys or until I see one I don't want. If I get a shoulder I don't want or need, I walk away from the chests and come back hours later or the next day.

It has not always been this way, with the stream of the same Monster Sets, but recently this is the way it works.

Oh, and your dungeon selection results, I get the same distrubution, with an annoying frequency of City of Ash II which in my opinion is more of a nightmare with Pugs than any DLC dungeon. And don't get me started on Vet CoA II, that one is why I don't ever pick "Random Veteran Dungeon" because it's either than, or vWGT more often than the DLC's.

firedrgn · October 2017

Wgt,is no problem on normal vet is a challenge if peeps don't know mechanics. We have all been there. I have been kicked with out warning. I keep going back in been to the final boss a few times now. I'm not the one getting,kicked anymore but its hard to,get just 4 peeps.

VaranisArano · October 2017

@krachall

Unfortunately, at level 10 your chances of getting a DLC dungeon if you own ESO+ or the DLCs is not 20%. Its 50%.

Why? Because ZOS did not do away with the level gates on the Dungeon GroupFinder that existed before One Tamriel, so normal dungeons unlock by zone starting at level 10 and unlocking every 7 levels afterward. As for the DLCs, ZOS believes you should have access to all the content you paid for as soon as you can play it.

This thread has a good list of the level gates: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/296685/increase-the-minimum-level-to-queue-for-the-dlc-dungeons

I'll quote the most relevant portion:

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

You need to be level 38 to queue for the zone-5 dungeons. And if I recall correctly, you need to be level 45 to queue for Vaults of Madness.

Is that still true? I was assuming (but haven't checked yet) that One Tamriel has removed the level restriction on queuing.

Yes, it is.
Zone 1 dungeons: level 10

Zone 2 dungeons: level 17

Zone 3 dungeons: level 24

Zone 4 dungeons: level 31

Zone 5 dungeons: level 38

Vaults of Madness: level 45

The level gate goes up in increments of 7. The storyline 2 dungeons share the same level gate as their storyline 1 counterpart. I propose that the DLC dungeons share the same level gate as Vaults.

Juhasow wrote: »

With One Tamriel You can go any dungeon on any level.

Yes, you can... if you wayshrine or walk into the dungeon normally. We're talking about the Group Finder's level gate. If people want to do a dungeon at level 3, they can--it'll just be a more deliberate action by the player.

So at level 10, your options for a "Random" Normal Dungeon is a random selection between: Fungal Grotto 1 & 2, Spindleclutch 1&2, Banished Cells 1&2, and all 6 DLC dungeons.

zaria · October 2017

VaranisArano wrote: »

@krachall

Unfortunately, at level 10 your chances of getting a DLC dungeon if you own ESO+ or the DLCs is not 20%. Its 50%.

Why? Because ZOS did not do away with the level gates on the Dungeon GroupFinder that existed before One Tamriel, so normal dungeons unlock by zone starting at level 10 and unlocking every 7 levels afterward. As for the DLCs, ZOS believes you should have access to all the content you paid for as soon as you can play it.

This thread has a good list of the level gates: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/296685/increase-the-minimum-level-to-queue-for-the-dlc-dungeons

I'll quote the most relevant portion:

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

You need to be level 38 to queue for the zone-5 dungeons. And if I recall correctly, you need to be level 45 to queue for Vaults of Madness.

Is that still true? I was assuming (but haven't checked yet) that One Tamriel has removed the level restriction on queuing.

Yes, it is.
Zone 1 dungeons: level 10

Zone 2 dungeons: level 17

Zone 3 dungeons: level 24

Zone 4 dungeons: level 31

Zone 5 dungeons: level 38

Vaults of Madness: level 45

The level gate goes up in increments of 7. The storyline 2 dungeons share the same level gate as their storyline 1 counterpart. I propose that the DLC dungeons share the same level gate as Vaults.

Juhasow wrote: »

With One Tamriel You can go any dungeon on any level.

Yes, you can... if you wayshrine or walk into the dungeon normally. We're talking about the Group Finder's level gate. If people want to do a dungeon at level 3, they can--it'll just be a more deliberate action by the player.

So at level 10, your options for a "Random" Normal Dungeon is a random selection between: Fungal Grotto 1 & 2, Spindleclutch 1&2, Banished Cells 1&2, and all 6 DLC dungeons.

Yes, and this make no sense at all, how hard could it be to change it to: lvl 10 all 1 dungeons, 20 unumbered ones, 30 2 dungeons 40 dlc. This is for random normal. Remove restrictions for doing an specific dungeon at least in an formed group so an 45 and an 10 could queue for nIcP, but queuing for random they would just get 1 dungeons.

VaranisArano · October 2017

zaria wrote: »

Yes, and this make no sense at all, how hard could it be to change it to: lvl 10 all 1 dungeons, 20 unumbered ones, 30 2 dungeons 40 dlc. This is for random normal. Remove restrictions for doing an specific dungeon at least in an formed group so an 45 and an 10 could queue for nIcP, but queuing for random they would just get 1 dungeons.

Oh, I agree! I think that ZOS needs to rethink the difficulty of the normal dungeons for level requirements. Fungal Grotto 1 and Fungal Grotto 2 might be the same zone but they are worlds apart in terms of difficulty because of the mechanics. However, I don't expect ZOS to change the level requirements for the DLCs because I think the idea of people getting the content they paid for makes too much sense.

The only problem is that I remember the last time(s) ZOS tired to "fix" the groupfinder and it wasn't pretty. Given that this code predates One Tamriel, I'm not sure I trust them to get it right.