Asylum Destro Staff 3.2.2

Artis · October 2017

idk wrote: »

Exactly the point I was making.

Thx for bringing that up. As for the details, I respect we have differing opinions.

You didn't make any point. Read the whole thought you quoted. Where are any studies suggesting your point? It's not differing opinions. I have no opinion. It's studies vs your opinion, which is based on what exactly? Again, you didn't answer a simple question. Just post the sources.

Have a good day.

idk wrote: »

As for this, yes, I remember those days as well. One had to basically do HM, which was really easy anyhow, to get on the leaderboard. Fortunately they scaled the level of the trials so they were no longer 2-4 levels below us.

I am talking about days where trials weren't below us in level. Either way, the community is far from what it was during those days.

idk · October 2017

Artis wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Exactly the point I was making.

Thx for bringing that up. As for the details, I respect we have differing opinions.

You didn't make any point. Read the whole thought you quoted. Where are any studies suggesting your point? It's not differing opinions. I have no opinion. It's studies vs your opinion, which is based on what exactly? Again, you didn't answer a simple question. Just post the sources.

Have a good day.

idk wrote: »

As for this, yes, I remember those days as well. One had to basically do HM, which was really easy anyhow, to get on the leaderboard. Fortunately they scaled the level of the trials so they were no longer 2-4 levels below us.

I am talking about days where trials weren't below us in level. Either way, the community is far from what it was during those days.

And your antiquated studies and wanting defense of your oppinion is absolutely irrelevant to a drop in players raiding.

Morrowind changes. You seem to raid a bit. The words I hear most often with those changes is it isn't any fun.

Core to keeping players interest is it being fun. Gear is so secondary at best, especially in a game where top raid teams have dps that don't use gear dropped in raids. Did your little studies look at that?

Enjoy the game.

Edit: I just did a quick skim through your posts here looking for the link to the study you are claiming is your basis. Might have missed it cause clearly I am not as smart as you are. Only saw you generically mention studies which is really empty.

So, link the studies our the basis of your oppinion is rather weak. I had asked before but you didn't want to bother with that request.

Lord-Otto · October 2017

Eh, you might not be playing Destiny. If you would, you would know Datto.

Speaking of, well, Destiny, not Datto... Bungie held their own research as to why people left. They adjusted D2 and especially loot accordingly, so there's that.

Emp throne and regalia is cosmetics. How about we locked Maelstrom and Asylum weapons behind Vivec emperorship? Following your studies, that should absolutely keep people like you playing.

Artis · October 2017

They are not little studies, they are peer-reviewed studies in behavioral psychology. I am still waiting for you to link any studies suggesting any of your fantasies or proving studies I refer to wrong.

Pointless to bring up morrowind changes vs reward. We didn't see them isolated nor do we have numbers to compare. As for my raiding - nothing changed in my either of my pve guilds. Everyone who raided is still raiding.

Studies didn't look at this game in particular duh. Did you even read them? Because if not, then wth are you arguing with? You have no idea what you're talking about. The human brain was studied. Findings can be applied to various tasks, including raiding.

So you basically demonstrated that you are a troll and aren't even reading what you are replying to. Some links were here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4543671/#Comment_4543671 that post even had you tagged, so there is no way you missed it if you argued in good faith and not just to troll. And these are just a couple of examples laying on the surface. There is more.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Eh, you might not be playing Destiny. If you would, you would know Datto.

Speaking of, well, Destiny, not Datto... Bungie held their own research as to why people left. They adjusted D2 and especially loot accordingly, so there's that.

Emp throne and regalia is cosmetics. How about we locked Maelstrom and Asylum weapons behind Vivec emperorship? Following your studies, that should absolutely keep people like you playing.

Sure, as long those weapons are also rewarded for something static like reaching a fixed amount of AP. Emperorship - no, because it can require different amount of AP depending on who's against you. Basically, you can be competent but still not get rewarded. In PvE players don't actively interfere and you need to meet static requirements : certain DPS, survive certain DPS and mechanics. Your competence will get rewarded for sure as long as you meet predetermined requirements.

Feanor · October 2017

It would a be a completely different story if they didn't botch the vMA staves too. So you either go for a master staff and start clench spamming, or run 5/4/2 with a back barred Lich and call it a day. Diversity isn't what that looks like.

idk · October 2017

@Artis so you call those who hold a different opinion than you a troll. Make sense considering the psychology behind such a statement. Since we are talking about psychology.

Ok, looking over the abstract it seems the "peer reviewed" study overlooks a great number of factors for motivation since it seems to look at one. Granted, I state this based on the abstract.

EDIT: FYI: The abstract is all that is available at that link. I agree with the abstract, however the abstract does not indicate the study found the best source of motivation in any terms.

It does not seem to compare other sources of motivation such as the leaderboard and such. Also, what can plainly be taken from the abstract, and the points you have made, is once someone has the gear the motivation would be greatly reduced.

As your raid leader pointed out, your own motivation for continuing to raid after you already have received the gear is getting better at the content, which one can only surmise is that you enjoy some aspect of that.

So in conclusion, the study has only a minor influence on this discussion since other forms of motivation are superior and longer lasting (having no bearing on the quality of lack of with ESO). As I stated earlier, a study in a vacuum, since they looked at only one aspect

Essentially the study looked at only one source of motivation. It did not compare to other forms of justification that MMORPGs are moving towards.

Even you noted the raiding community was larger not that long ago. Clearly, after the game has been out for more than 2 years, something had kept players attention. Even after BoE gear was removed it was still hopping and those that raid often pretty much had anything they wanted.

Again, enjoy the game. Glad I took look at that link.

Lord-Otto · October 2017

Artis wrote: »

They are not little studies, they are peer-reviewed studies in behavioral psychology. I am still waiting for you to link any studies suggesting any of your fantasies or proving studies I refer to wrong.

Pointless to bring up morrowind changes vs reward. We didn't see them isolated nor do we have numbers to compare. As for my raiding - nothing changed in my either of my pve guilds. Everyone who raided is still raiding.

Studies didn't look at this game in particular duh. Did you even read them? Because if not, then wth are you arguing with? You have no idea what you're talking about. The human brain was studied. Findings can be applied to various tasks, including raiding.

So you basically demonstrated that you are a troll and aren't even reading what you are replying to. Some links were here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4543671/#Comment_4543671 that post even had you tagged, so there is no way you missed it if you argued in good faith and not just to troll. And these are just a couple of examples laying on the surface. There is more.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Eh, you might not be playing Destiny. If you would, you would know Datto.

Speaking of, well, Destiny, not Datto... Bungie held their own research as to why people left. They adjusted D2 and especially loot accordingly, so there's that.

Emp throne and regalia is cosmetics. How about we locked Maelstrom and Asylum weapons behind Vivec emperorship? Following your studies, that should absolutely keep people like you playing.

Sure, as long those weapons are also rewarded for something static like reaching a fixed amount of AP. Emperorship - no, because it can require different amount of AP depending on who's against you. Basically, you can be competent but still not get rewarded. In PvE players don't actively interfere and you need to meet static requirements : certain DPS, survive certain DPS and mechanics. Your competence will get rewarded for sure as long as you meet predetermined requirements.

AH!!!

And me, the PvP player who farmed weeks for a sharpened BSW inferno (never got it) should keep quiet? RNG is a super b*** and can frustrate the crab outta ya.

I get what you're saying about static requirements. But now, just for a moment, step into the shoes of someone who is forced to play a game mode he despises to get gear to compete. And having the game's loot mechanics work against him. Over and over and over. Then come back and review studies of people not experiencing that frustration.

I know why my friends quit Destiny. They straight up told me, there is obviously no better source. I played Destiny when no one on my FL was playing it. Had to solo group content. Play with random noobs. Accept being locked out from gear I'd really desired.
That hamster wheel approach soured the game for my friends. And it dried it out for me, as well, who didn't mind it. There is a better way.

Destiny had a better way: Trials of Osiris.
Designed for the absolute PvP tryhards, but rewarding unsuccessful participants, too. Only, that the reward for success were adept weapons - same weapons as casual rewards, but altered appearance and very slightly better, barely noticeable.
It was a success. I don't need no studies. I ask the people themselves. Trials saved Destiny and kept it alive on Twitch. Everyone got gear, but some got slightly better gear. A testiment to their capabilities and something to show off, while keeping the overall balance.

Sound familiar?
It's perfected and non-perfected Asylum weapons for ESO.

Artis · October 2017

idk wrote: »

@Artis so you call those who hold a different opinion than you a troll. Make sense considering the psychology behind such a statement. Since we are talking about psychology.

Ok, looking over the abstract it seems the "peer reviewed" study overlooks a great number of factors for motivation since it seems to look at one. Granted, I state this based on the abstract.

EDIT: FYI: The abstract is all that is available at that link. I agree with the abstract, however the abstract does not indicate the study found the best source of motivation in any terms.

It does not seem to compare other sources of motivation such as the leaderboard and such. Also, what can plainly be taken from the abstract, and the points you have made, is once someone has the gear the motivation would be greatly reduced.

As your raid leader pointed out, your own motivation for continuing to raid after you already have received the gear is getting better at the content, which one can only surmise is that you enjoy some aspect of that.

So in conclusion, the study has only a minor influence on this discussion since other forms of motivation are superior and longer lasting (having no bearing on the quality of lack of with ESO). As I stated earlier, a study in a vacuum, since they looked at only one aspect

Essentially the study looked at only one source of motivation. It did not compare to other forms of justification that MMORPGs are moving towards.

Even you noted the raiding community was larger not that long ago. Clearly, after the game has been out for more than 2 years, something had kept players attention. Even after BoE gear was removed it was still hopping and those that raid often pretty much had anything they wanted.

Again, enjoy the game. Glad I took look at that link.

No, I call you a troll because you are replying something to cause negative reaction, when you don't even read what you reply to. The links were posted couple of pages ago. I spent some of my time finding them and getting into a topic to get actual info, and you dare to say something about them when you didn't even open the links?? Like, you accuse me of lying or coming up with some studies since you didn't even see the ones I linked? That's why you're a troll.

Abstract is enough, knowing it and the title you can find the paper if you want. What do you mean the best source of motivation? Wut? Stop trolling. READ the comments. It's not the goal. It shows that the reward has to reflect competence as opposed to not reflecting competence. It doesn't compare reward vs new content, obviously.

It doesn't obviously compare source of motivation in this game. It's not about this game. It's about the behavior in general. We are talking about locking or not locking gear behind content. About reward reflecting or not reflecting the competence. And it answers the question. And again, there are more studies. This is just 1 example.

So, in conclusion, you don't read my comment and don't think. That's not what I said. First of all, we aren't comparing different sources. I talk about 1 thing - reward for competence or for showing up. Other sources have to be there, too. That doesn't change the fact that in this aspect we have to aim for the best. Secondly, studies HAVE to focus 1 aspect. If you don't isolate and change only one factor, then the study is worthless. Say you're measuring the dependence of current on voltage but also change resistance in every trial. Then you can't say anything. Pls, get a science degree.

Sigh, so you don't read. As I already pointed out, I do still need gear from trials. I also still need achievements. Is it selective blindness? Cause if not, don't be surprise you come off as a troll.

The content is a whole a different aspect. Working on one doesn't mean we should ignore the other one. Are you seriously saying that if I want to maximize the current I should be counter productive and need to increase the voltage but not decrease the resistance??? No! I obviously need to work on both if I can. And here we can. We should BOTH get new content AND have rewards reflect the competence = more powerful stuff for completing harder content.

I'm glad you looked at a link, too. It's a shame you lack logical and abstract thinking to apply it to the discussion. you really were looking for the best source of motivation? WHY?? That's not what I was talking about AT ALL.

'

Lord-Otto wrote: »

AH!!!

And me, the PvP player who farmed weeks for a sharpened BSW inferno (never got it) should keep quiet? RNG is a super b*** and can frustrate the crab outta ya.

I get what you're saying about static requirements. But now, just for a moment, step into the shoes of someone who is forced to play a game mode he despises to get gear to compete. And having the game's loot mechanics work against him. Over and over and over. Then come back and review studies of people not experiencing that frustration.

I'm in your shoes every day. I have to do content I despise to stay relevant in my competition of interest. That's the nature of competition. You are in the same conditions as other competitors. They too have to play other game modes if they want to get the edge. If you want to compete with them, you need to be ready to do as much as them. RNG loot is sad, I get it. But now that problem is gone with transmutation being added. So, no excuse. If I want to compete on a body building competition or compete for the opposite sex attention on the beach, I need to go the gym and follow the diet no matter how I despise them. And yes, other competitors can have better genetics and it will be easier for them to reach certain levels.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I know why my friends quit Destiny. They straight up told me, there is obviously no better source.

Oh yeah right. There's no better source than self-reported data.... Riiiight.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

That hamster wheel approach soured the game for my friends. And it dried it out for me, as well, who didn't mind it. There is a better way.

Destiny had a better way: Trials of Osiris.
Designed for the absolute PvP tryhards, but rewarding unsuccessful participants, too. Only, that the reward for success were adept weapons - same weapons as casual rewards, but altered appearance and very slightly better, barely noticeable.
It was a success. I don't need no studies. I ask the people themselves. Trials saved Destiny and kept it alive on Twitch. Everyone got gear, but some got slightly better gear. A testiment to their capabilities and something to show off, while keeping the overall balance.

Sound familiar?
It's perfected and non-perfected Asylum weapons for ESO.

Oh, so non-perfected and perfected for harder content weapons will save ESO, too? Great. That's exactly my point.

And yeah you need studies to understand that success. In fact, it's predicted by what I'm saying. "Everyone got gear, but some got slightly better gear". In other words, competency-based reward. More competent players got better gear. That's the situation we were about to get so far. So what are you arguing with? You just demonstrated that my prediction was correct.

idk · October 2017

So when your finished getting your gear are you going to cease raiding until something new you'd like comes along?

Also, please stop with the silly troll nonsense. It's become clear that my comments being inconvenient to your oppinion you seem to be strongly promoting as a great way for a gear systems to work.

So simply put, for clarity, yes, locking tiered gear behind content is a method of motivation when that tiered gear actually means something. However, there are other methods to motivate that logic would dictate is a more lasting means. That would be good content that's fun to play.

So again, we have differing oppinions. Nothing more.

Enjoy the game.

Artis · October 2017

Not just gear, also achievements. By the time that's done there will probably be new content. If not - then yes I might quit or decrease my time in raiding to focus on PvP achievements or fishing or whatever content I despise - but I"ll do it if I want to compete with those who are ready to do it and do content that I like too. Or - who knows - maybe I won't stop raiding just to stay in shape for future achievements. But I'd definitely cut raiding IF I had too many times per week. Right now I have 2, so maybe that wouldn't change.

No, your comments aren't inconvenient, every single one of them is already refuted and explained. You're a troll because you clearly argued without reading what I said and linked for a while.

Yes, there are different sources of motivation. No, it's not different opinions. It's your opinion vs research in this context. Because you're arguing with what I said, and the only thing I said is that competency-based rewards are better than non-competency-based ones. Period. Nothing about rewards better than new content. That would be like comparing physical quantities with different units. You can't do that. You can't say that 2 meters is greater than 5 Kelvin.

Also "logic would dictate" is not an argument. If you want to make this claim, find studies showing that adding new tasks to the old ones is increasing motivation. Affirmative claim = burden of proof. I provided evidence of what I said. Not "logic dictates" (and apparently for you it dictates the opposite anyway), but actual empiric proof.

idk · October 2017

Some are stuck in the antiquated methodology. They even think the idea enjoyable content that's fun to play as a great motivator has been refuted. Lol. Dogma keeps a strong hold sometime.

Again, enjoy the game.

Artis · October 2017

Are you trolling or really can't read?

That idea hasn't been refuted. Ignorant comments about study and how it shouldn't focus on one aspect were.

That idea wasn't even discussed by me. Sure, enjoyable content is a great motivator. Also, competency-based reward is better than non-competency-based reward REGARDLESS of other motivators.

idk · October 2017

Artis wrote: »

Are you trolling or really can't read?

That idea hasn't been refuted. Ignorant comments about study and how it shouldn't focus on one aspect were.

That idea wasn't even discussed by me. Sure, enjoyable content is a great motivator. Also, competency-based reward is better than non-competency-based reward REGARDLESS of other motivators.

Seriously? LOL

You have not refuted one thing. Who is the troll? Not me.

Also, I have not said at any given time that competency related motivators does not work. I have said there are much better motivators. Even you stated that the content needs to be there. Content has to come first. It is the most important. study that.

Even you cannot refute that unless you are refuting your raid leader who you chose early on to avoid discussing this with him. Granted, you did refute he was speaking of you and cleared the air that he was speaking of your name sake.

And to be clear, once the player has the gear the motivation based on the gear becomes purely pointless. Demonstrating it's significance. Games that implemented such things do not deliver new content fast enough. That is why content providers should not rely on it.

Once again, you have your opinion and I have mine and those opinions are just that. Neither of us have refuted that, which is a fact.

Enjoy the game.

idk · October 2017

I understand studies very well. I understand statistics used very well.

Reality is one study that essentially looks at one aspect does not prove merely that one narrow aspect. Additionally, your little study doesn't prove the gear is the best motivator.

My proof to start off with if your raid leasers comments that are sufficient enough to prove you are wrong if your saying gear if the best motivator. He made it clear that your raid group raids for other reasons. Other than saying that he wasn't speaking of you, but your namesake, you really had. Irving to say in retort. What the heck is ones namesake anyhow?

It's also clear the reduce number of raiders in ESO has nothing to do with gear being the timing was the changes with Morrowind. Your idea that gear is the motivator wouldn't do jack to reverse those numbers. If you think they would then you lack a clue. At best gear can only be a secondary motivator. Otherwise the gear is irrelevant.

It is you that's in denial if you think your raiding and playing this game for gear. If gear is your motivator as you indicated previously then that's a sad place to be.

Artis · October 2017

idk wrote: »

Seriously? LOL

You have not refuted one thing. Who is the troll? Not me.

Also, I have not said at any given time that competency related motivators does not work. I have said there are much better motivators. Even you stated that the content needs to be there. Content has to come first. It is the most important. study that.

Even you cannot refute that unless you are refuting your raid leader who you chose early on to avoid discussing this with him. Granted, you did refute he was speaking of you and cleared the air that he was speaking of your name sake.

And to be clear, once the player has the gear the motivation based on the gear becomes purely pointless. Demonstrating it's significance. Games that implemented such things do not deliver new content fast enough. That is why content providers should not rely on it.

Once again, you have your opinion and I have mine and those opinions are just that. Neither of us have refuted that, which is a fact.

Enjoy the game.

Absolutely did. And yes you are. You haven't read anything but were arguing about it for multiple pages.

Much better? That's debatable. They aren't much better just cause you said so. Making an affirmative claim? Provide evidence. The burden of proof is on you. Secondly, it doesn't matter what's better - there's no reason not to improve every aspect, no matter if it's much or less better. As I said, if you want to maximize the function, but can work with all parameters, no need to maximize it via one and do a counterproductive thing with another one. And that's what you're suggesting. You are suggesting to only improve content, but not make rewards competency-based, because (as you claim - with no proof yet) the content is a better motivator. It doesn't matter if it's better or not. No reason not to make rewards competency-based.

And to be clear, no. Reread the abstract.

Once again, it's not my opinion. It's your opinion vs the field of behavioral psychology.

idk wrote: »

I understand studies very well. I understand statistics used very well.

Reality is one study that essentially looks at one aspect does not prove merely that one narrow aspect. Additionally, your little study doesn't prove the gear is the best motivator.

My proof to start off with if your raid leasers comments that are sufficient enough to prove you are wrong if your saying gear if the best motivator. He made it clear that your raid group raids for other reasons. Other than saying that he wasn't speaking of you, but your namesake, you really had. Irving to say in retort. What the heck is ones namesake anyhow?

It's also clear the reduce number of raiders in ESO has nothing to do with gear being the timing was the changes with Morrowind. Your idea that gear is the motivator wouldn't do jack to reverse those numbers. If you think they would then you lack a clue. At best gear can only be a secondary motivator. Otherwise the gear is irrelevant.

It is you that's in denial if you think your raiding and playing this game for gear. If gear is your motivator as you indicated previously then that's a sad place to be.

Once again, it's my study nor it's a little study. It's a peer-review published study, which is one of plenty. At the same time, you still haven't provided ANY evidence whatsoever for your claims. If you understood studies "very well", you would understand that you're just a chatterbox right now. Study that? Nope. YOU study that and provide the evidence of your words. I provided evidence for my affirmative claim. Now the burden of proof is on you.

Secondly, yes, a study does prove one aspect if it's focused on it and keeps other aspects constant. That is THE method to find dependencies on certain parameters. Again - pls get a science degree, what you're saying right now is just embarrassing. Here's what you're saying: "You can't find how voltage depends on resistance if you only change the resistance, it also depends on the current so that has to be there too". DUH. U=I*R, but if I don't keep I=const, then how can I say that U is proportional to R, if some of the change could be attributed to the change in the other parameter? Nope. One variable. That's the way to go.

Also, again, it doesn't matter which motivator is the best? Have I ever said it was the best? No. Because no one cares. We know for the fact that the competency-based reward is better than a noncompetency-based one REGARDLESS of other factors. Again, are you still surprised you come off as a troll? I already explained it. Even the word REGARDLESS was in caps. AND you quoted it. But you haven't even read it? pfff. Again, if I want to maximize y=k*x^2 why wouldn't I maximize k if I can, even if x^2 is better and will make it grow even faster? Then if I increase x with k already increased, my y will increase even more than it would if I only increased one of the two factors.

Your proof is worthless. It's not a proof. It's you flapping your mouth. Provide the evidence. Numbers, stats, etc. Peer-reviewed, etc. Regarding namesake -you could just google it - it's a person who has the same name as another person. And it was a joke. Nope, never avoided him. Quoted BOTH comments so it's clear I'm addressing them both. Not sure how you can understand studies and stats very well, but can't understand something as simple. And see? It's been multiple days and he still didn't provide any evidence.

"It's also clear"? Ahaha no, it's not. Prove it. For all we know that's why this is done to the gear. Because ZOS knows and sees how their numbers change.

Nope, wrong again. You're in denial. You understand studies and all very well, don't you? Then you should understand how logical fallacies work (cause they have to be avoided in studies of course). And right now you're just being ridiculous using your fantasies not based on anything as arguments against behavioral psychology studies. Like pls. Are you for reals? Cause if yes I can recommend a few text books. And if not - then you must be a troll.

idk · October 2017

Once again it is your opinion based on an abstract, maybe you read some of the actual report, that looked at a narrow aspect.

That is all you have provided. An opinion based on a a 37 year old study that looked at what is now considered archaic in today's MMORPGs.

You can stick to your little study that I do not find worth 12 USD to see the entire report. Of course players will push to get the gear and as you have indicated for yourself, it is all for naught once they have it since some will stop raiding. More interesting carrots are longer lasting that short term rewards.

It is ok for you to disagree with that since all we are talking about is opinions. I am not saying tiered gear does not have an affect, just that it is not the best means to drive players to continue and I doubt the paper refutes that at all.

Once again, enjoy the game. I am done with this silly argument about opinions. Call your opinion something else if it makes you feel better, but that does not make it anything more. I do suggest opening your mind.

Lord-Otto · October 2017

Well, Artis, you sounded at some point as if you wanted all Asylum weapons only from HM.
Devil's in the detail, Destiny's adept weapons are only very slightly better than non-adept. Enough to make them worth it and give you an edge that only already really good players will benefit from. Thus, the overall balance remains intact.
The latest approach to the staff is far away from that. ZOS are going to pretty much trash the non-perfect version. The initial difference (main balance aside) was much smaller and better.

Derra · October 2017

Man @Artis the study you linked is great and all - but do you realize that this is not applicable to the weapons at all when you´re leaving your point of view of the topic - which i´ve pointed out multiple times you´re not able to do?

The study is about intrinsic motivation.

These weapons are intrisinc motivators for people who want to raid in the first place...
For everyone else that does not want to raid it´s an extrinsic factor. It makes them have to raid if they want to compete.

And since you´re into psychology we probably both know that having strong extrinsic motivation to do something you find absolutely unenjoyable is not good - especially in a game.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2017

Can you guys take this conversation on what motivates people to do thing to private messages? It is a bit much to read through when I just want to read about the weapon.

Derra · October 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Can you guys take this conversation on what motivates people to do thing to private messages? It is a bit much to read through when I just want to read about the weapon.

The normal weapon sucks since the nerf

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Can you guys take this conversation on what motivates people to do thing to private messages? It is a bit much to read through when I just want to read about the weapon.

The normal weapon sucks since the nerf

As primarily a pver, I don't really see the value of either staff over a vMA staff, you are going to be procing the secondary effects anyways, so it is really not doing something that you can't do anyways.

Derra · October 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Can you guys take this conversation on what motivates people to do thing to private messages? It is a bit much to read through when I just want to read about the weapon.

The normal weapon sucks since the nerf

As primarily a pver, I don't really see the value of either staff over a vMA staff, you are going to be procing the secondary effects anyways, so it is really not doing something that you can't do anyways.

They´re worth it for increased burning uptime alone. The added concussion for more off balance (gets consumed by HA) is a bonus.

Most likely you´ll use asylum front and maelstrom back. There´s no reason not to use both in pve.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Can you guys take this conversation on what motivates people to do thing to private messages? It is a bit much to read through when I just want to read about the weapon.

The normal weapon sucks since the nerf

As primarily a pver, I don't really see the value of either staff over a vMA staff, you are going to be procing the secondary effects anyways, so it is really not doing something that you can't do anyways.

They´re worth it for increased burning uptime alone. The added concussion for more off balance (gets consumed by HA) is a bonus.

Most likely you´ll use asylum front and maelstrom back. There´s no reason not to use both in pve.

I agree, no reason if you are correct but I need to see numbers and then I will be convinced.

Derra · October 2017

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Can you guys take this conversation on what motivates people to do thing to private messages? It is a bit much to read through when I just want to read about the weapon.

The normal weapon sucks since the nerf

As primarily a pver, I don't really see the value of either staff over a vMA staff, you are going to be procing the secondary effects anyways, so it is really not doing something that you can't do anyways.

They´re worth it for increased burning uptime alone. The added concussion for more off balance (gets consumed by HA) is a bonus.

Most likely you´ll use asylum front and maelstrom back. There´s no reason not to use both in pve.

I agree, no reason if you are correct but I need to see numbers and then I will be convinced.

Think people were posting some numbers in this topic:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/372157/pve-magicka-sorc-rotation-asylum/p4

Artis · October 2017

idk wrote: »

Once again it is your opinion based on an abstract, maybe you read some of the actual report, that looked at a narrow aspect.

That is all you have provided. An opinion based on a a 37 year old study that looked at what is now considered archaic in today's MMORPGs.

You can stick to your little study that I do not find worth 12 USD to see the entire report. Of course players will push to get the gear and as you have indicated for yourself, it is all for naught once they have it since some will stop raiding. More interesting carrots are longer lasting that short term rewards.

It is ok for you to disagree with that since all we are talking about is opinions. I am not saying tiered gear does not have an affect, just that it is not the best means to drive players to continue and I doubt the paper refutes that at all.

Once again, enjoy the game. I am done with this silly argument about opinions. Call your opinion something else if it makes you feel better, but that does not make it anything more. I do suggest opening your mind.

sigh. The age of a study is irrelevant unless you have a newer study proving the older one wrong. Not that 37 years will suddenly change human's brain that was evolving for centuries (or created by god - whatever you believe in). Again, if you understand things very well - you should understand basic principles like that.

Not to mention that the second link was newer, and if you weren't a troll and were really intellectually honest and discussing to get to the truth you would easily googled and found newer research like https://www.rug.nl/gmw/psychology/research/onderzoek_summerschool/firststep/content/papers/4.4.pdf (1999) or http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jaba.359/full (2016), full text, too, not just abstracts. And again, there's more. But you don't care, do you? You're just here to troll and argue just for the sake of it. Otherwise you would do your research and of course would link some newer sources if you're claiming the one I linked is outdated.

Again, it's not about opinions. You are trying to make it seem that way, but it's not. It's your opinion not based on anything vs my summary of data that I found.

@Lord-Otto yes that's exactly what I want. As you demonstrated, it worked perfectly in another game. Now you're saying it's the difference between two versions that is a problem? With that I won't argue, because I haven't tested them back to back. Maybe they could be brought together. But it's incorrect to simply compare the bonuses of the two, what has to be compared is the overall performance difference.

@Derra not quite. Weapons in this example are not motivation. Weapons are reward. Motivation is motivation to play the content ("perform the task" in the study). The conclusion of the study shows that: "when rewards did not indicate level of ability, higher rewards led to less intrinsic motivation, regardless of whether these rewards were contingent.But when the level of reward reflected ability (higher rewards were supposedly given for greater skill), higher rewards led to greater intrinsic motivation."
Or applied to our case: "If we give the BiS gear just for showing up, then the interest in playing that content will likely decrease. But if the BiS gear reflects ability/competence (in parenthesis it even literally says - given for greater skill!!!!), these rewards will likely lead to greater motivation to play that content". (Tried to use graphics for 2 different cases). But anyway, finally a good argument, not just accusing of some privilege, so here is a like

But I found something even cooler when looking for newer studies, more specifically about MMO. Won't post it yet, though, gotta read it first.

And yes, we probably could create a whole new thread for this. But then again - it's not off topic, since this thread is not to discuss those weapons but to ask for non-competency based reward and not rewarding players capable of vet HM clears (higher skill). Maybe I'll make a separate post if I have time, definitely not today though. Only have time to reply

idk · October 2017

LOL, you still go not get it.

As long as you maintain the extremely narrow minded view on this I really doubt you could understand the logic of how narrow the study was and how much more goes into the motivation that just silly gear.

Either you are a major troll or lack some basic understanding of what leads millions of players to play games. That study did not even begin to explain the drive and motivation, just a narrow slice of what can add some motivation. Unless you understand that the study you hold so dear lacks any meaning. I would suggest reading this thread again, starting with what your raid leader had to say if I thought that would help.

Artis · October 2017

The extremely narrow minded view is when your opinion isn't based on anything but your intuition. The amount of papers I read about this topic alone is probably higher than what you read in the past year.

Again, if you're making an affirmative claim - carry your burden of proof and provide evidence. If not, don't even dare to use words like "logic".

LOL raid leader again? Already addressed it. You completely misunderstood what he said. Troll? Again, I'm not the one trolling here. You are arguing just to argue. I asked you to provide evidence how many times? 5-6 already? Still no studies from you. And then you were arguing about the study I linked for 3 pages without even opening it first. And now I bet you didnt' read the other two links I sent, but still arguing. If you weren't troll, you'd educated yourself first before saying anything. Instead you're pushing your opinion that is not based on anything whatsoever.

Again, if you actually read what people are telling you, you'd see that the nonsense you're spewing is already addressed. Studies do not explain anything to begin with. It's psychology, not physics. It is impossible in principle. Google popper's criteria and educate yourself. Secondly, it doesn't matter what goes into motivation. Whatever it is, the study shows the effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation. If the rewards are given without taking competence into account, it decreases intrinsic motivation period. What was fun becomes less fun.

It's not about gear being the only/the most important motivator. It's about non-competency based reward decreasing fun compared to competency-based reward. It's not ADDING to motivation. It's SUBTRACTING from motivation if it's not earned but received easily and higher skill is not rewarded.

idk · October 2017

Artis wrote: »

The extremely narrow minded view is when your opinion isn't based on anything but your intuition. The amount of papers I read about this topic alone is probably higher than what you read in the past year.

Again, if you're making an affirmative claim - carry your burden of proof and provide evidence. If not, don't even dare to use words like "logic".

LOL raid leader again? Already addressed it. You completely misunderstood what he said. Troll? Again, I'm not the one trolling here. You are arguing just to argue. I asked you to provide evidence how many times? 5-6 already? Still no studies from you. And then you were arguing about the study I linked for 3 pages without even opening it first. And now I bet you didnt' read the other two links I sent, but still arguing. If you weren't troll, you'd educated yourself first before saying anything. Instead you're pushing your opinion that is not based on anything whatsoever.

Again, if you actually read what people are telling you, you'd see that the nonsense you're spewing is already addressed. Studies do not explain anything to begin with. It's psychology, not physics. It is impossible in principle. Google popper's criteria and educate yourself. Secondly, it doesn't matter what goes into motivation. Whatever it is, the study shows the effect of extrinsic rewards on intrinsic motivation. If the rewards are given without taking competence into account, it decreases intrinsic motivation period. What was fun becomes less fun.

It's not about gear being the only/the most important motivator. It's about non-competency based reward decreasing fun compared to competency-based reward. It's not ADDING to motivation. It's SUBTRACTING from motivation if it's not earned but received easily and higher skill is not rewarded.

Talk about someone spouting nonsense. Clearly you have to call me a troll (LOL) because you really lack anything to strengthen the argument on your opinion other than a study that did not look at gearing in MMORPGs.

Again, I respect you have an opinion and it is different than mine, but that is really, and factually, all it is regardless of how many times you try to say otherwise. Nothing more except maybe a overly strong view of self importance with this.

Enjoy the game.

EDIT: BTW, enjoy your beliefs and opinions. I really happy for you that you have opinions on something, but I really do not care what they are or if you consider them more than an opinion. The petty little argument about a 37 year old study needs to come to an end. I am ending it now, You may continue if you really think it is that important.

Artis · October 2017

idk wrote: »

Talk about someone spouting nonsense. Clearly you have to call me a troll (LOL) because you really lack anything to strengthen the argument on your opinion other than a study that did not look at gearing in MMORPGs.

Again, I respect you have an opinion and it is different than mine, but that is really, and factually, all it is regardless of how many times you try to say otherwise. Nothing more except maybe a overly strong view of self importance with this.

Enjoy the game.

EDIT: BTW, enjoy your beliefs and opinions. I really happy for you that you have opinions on something, but I really do not care what they are or if you consider them more than an opinion. The petty little argument about a 37 year old study needs to come to an end. I am ending it now, You may continue if you really think it is that important.

@idk
No, I call you a troll because you are arguing about stuff you haven't even read. Again, if you read what I'm saying, you'd see that. The study looks at how extrinsic rewards affect intrinsic motivation. It's applied to gearing in MMORPGs just like to other activities. Brain is brain and humans are humans. There's no such thing as my opinion. I present the summary of facts, whereas you keep pushing your opinion not based on anything.

You made an affirmative claim and still didn't provide any evidence (notice how when I make an affirmative claim - I provide evidence, both about motivation(links) and when calling you a troll - showing how you didn't even read links/comments you're replying to). Also, the age of a study doesn't matter, unless you're claiming now that evolution is that fast. Omg 37 years? So what? There are papers of 50+ years old that are still like the bible in physics. And again, if the only way to argue with such study is showing a newer study proving the opposite. You still haven't done that and I'm still waiting. On top of that, I linked to more studies, one of them is 1 year old. Or is that too old for you too? Then you just have no idea how all that thing works, do you? Here's another link, that directly compares different types of motivation http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/pdf/3-2.pdf and where you can clearly see that acquiring rare gear other players will never have and becoming powerful have higher factors loading (0.77-0.81) while being a part of the serious raid-oriented guild as well as enjoyment from working as a team both have the lowest factor of 0.6 (table on pages 4-5). And this study is NAMELY about MMORPGs.

You are just in denial at this point. You aren't the part of majority on this one. Ahaha you're ending it now? Sure sure, you might as well never started if all you had was not-based-on-anything opinion and a bunch of logical fallacies. Now of course you'll say that, since you have nothing relevant to say. Still no evidence of any of your claims.

idk · October 2017

Almighty artis, I kneel to your supreme intellect. His dare I think with my feeble mind that it would be a stupid idea for a modern MMORPG to base they're principle motivation on the results of such a study.

Yea, I got what the study was saying. I have read what you have posted yet I really think failed to read what I have posted since I have never said the gear doesn't have an effect but have said there are significantly better means for motivation.

Have a good say. Thx for the daily dose of entertainment.