Asylum Destro Staff 3.2.2

Midori_Oku

Just a thought, but on top of getting two perfect weapons on HM why not also get gold upgrade materials, and other things such as aetherial dust? Or maybe even a massive increase to undaunted plunder? I agree that perfect asylum weapons should drop on non-vet HM, but there should definitely be something else make up for vet HM. With transmutation being added, just having double weapon drops on HM is not enough.

Both the fact that imperfect weapons drop in normal and that perfect weapons drop only on vet HM is just terrible. Best solution in my opinion is to have imperfect weapons drop on normal, imperfect weapons drop on vet with a chance of getting perfect weapons, and perfect weapons being guaranteed on vet HM with added rewards of some kind.

SammyFable

I did a bit of testing and it looks like, there is a 10s window between each force pulse to count as the "second one". So if you were to use a force pulse before bar swapping and refreshing all buffs, you'll not loose out on debuff uptimes because your next force pulse will bring those effects. But keeping a high uptime on those effects will be pretty hard.

Artis

@idk

the point of discussions is to get to the truth. In this case, your point is that vet HM should have any usable rewards that makes running it worth it, as opposed to running non HM. I disagree and said my arguments, but haven't seen yours. No point in not keeping it going. Why shouldn't players who can do harder content be rewarded with something meaningful they need to work towards and that they can only get there (which is the main motivator for most players). Yes, some players raid for gear and those are the majority. So to make them progress they need to know they can get a gear they can't get otherwise.

And that's great for everyone. IT's a win-win situation. They have something to work towards and will be rewarded for it. People who raid for fun will have a bigger pool to draw from. Raiding population will be healthier.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Way too much of a nerf for the non perfect Asylum destro. This needs further adjustments.

Izaki

code65536 wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I look forward to running Asylum HM then.

I don't. vAsylum HM, esp. after the difficulty increase this patch, is probably the hardest content they've put out and makes things like vMoL HM look like a stroll in the park. I wouldn't expect to see people running perfected weapons any time soon.

And with the way the endgame PvE community is shriveling, I don't think this trend towards increasingly exclusive content is healthy.

I think that the only thing that could potentially inject new blood into the PvE endgame community, is... Trials Group finder. For normal trials only of course. It would give newer players a way to discover the content, even if they don't finish it, and it might inspire them to start looking for trials guilds. Obviously, I'm only saying "might" because it could go the other way and push people away from trials since there will always be "those guys" (y'all know who I'm talking about) just like in the Dungeon Group finder.

But yeah, the Asylum HM is looking like the hardest content in the game at the moment, the non-HM versions however, aren't THAT difficult.
The plus side? The speed run lasts only 15 minutes, so once you get the hang of it to the point of being able to speed run it, farming weapons won't be too much of a pain. What saddens me is that the Destro staff is the only weapon that is worth farming.

Right, vet Asylum non-HM isn't bad at all--I've completed it twice on the PTS--and the difficulty buffs this patch don't really affect the non-HM version. Non-HM is accessible, and that's where perfected weapons should drop.

• Non-Vet: Non-perfected
• Vet non-HM: Perfected
• Vet HM: 2x Perfected weapons

Vet non-HM is about as accessible as vet Maelstrom, which I think is a good benchmark. Vet trial hardmodes have always been about score and prestige. Never before has player power been gated behind a hardmode.

^ That suggestion is awesome. Make a post woth this one.

Izaki

Maulkin wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

2h vs perfected 2h ~6.7% difference.
staff vs perfected staff 50% difference.

Well

Exactly, that the problem.

Suggestion:
- Asylum Destro: You have a 33% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock
- Perfect Asylum Destro: You have a 40% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock

That brings the difference on par with 2H.

Please no RNG.... implementing RNG into these weapons will make things so much less fun.

It was only a suggestion, but I would prefer a 33% proc chance than "every 3rd attack". Mathematically it works out the same and at least, if the visual signs are easy to spot, I can use my burst on time with the off-balance when it procs.

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Now deactivate asylum weapons for cyrodiil please.

There is no reason to lock pvp best in slot weapons behind vet hardmode pve minitrials.

I think you are approaching the subject from an angle that is unacceptable to ZOS.

They want to make their new product appealing to both PvPers and PvErs to maximise the number of players that subscribe or purchase the DLC. Like they previously did with Maelstrom Arena, Monster Helms, Dragonstar Arena. They all had equipment that was at one time BiS for certain builds in PvP.

There is 0 chance they will make those sets only useful to PvE now. They might do that at a later date, in the same way they went with the vMA and vDSA weapon nerfs. Once they've sold as many copies of CWC as they could basically. I don't blame them, ultimately they need to be selling DLCs for the game to turn a profit and thus continue to exist.

I understand the argument that for the first time these weapons are locked behind a hard mode vet Trial and I agree that's terrible design because those are inaccessible to the vast majority of people. Not because of lack of skill or effort but because it requires a loooot of organisation to put repeated 12-person raids together.

The best way I can think of handling that is to massively decrease the benefit of Asylum to Perfect Asylum weapons. Which is the opposite of what they've just done with the staves.

Derra wrote: »

2h vs perfected 2h ~6.7% difference.
staff vs perfected staff 50% difference.

Well

Exactly, that the problem.

Suggestion:
- Asylum Destro: You have a 33% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock
- Perfect Asylum Destro: You have a 40% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock

That brings the difference on par with 2H.

Same chance applying status effects with any other weapon. : /

Errr no? Not even close. What are you talking about?

If non off balance its concussion. 2 very different things.

idk

Artis wrote: »

@idk

the point of discussions is to get to the truth. In this case, your point is that vet HM should have any usable rewards that makes running it worth it, as opposed to running non HM. I disagree and said my arguments, but haven't seen yours. No point in not keeping it going. Why shouldn't players who can do harder content be rewarded with something meaningful they need to work towards and that they can only get there (which is the main motivator for most players). Yes, some players raid for gear and those are the majority. So to make them progress they need to know they can get a gear they can't get otherwise.

And that's great for everyone. IT's a win-win situation. They have something to work towards and will be rewarded for it. People who raid for fun will have a bigger pool to draw from. Raiding population will be healthier.

Not my point at all and there is no truth on this subject. Merely opinions. Also, a the majority of those who enjoy raiding, that would actually be considered raiders, get their gear many times over in the end outside of the low drop rate of desired weapons.

Besides, you disagree with me, but apparently agree with person I basically agree with? Really does not make sense.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Maulkin wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

2h vs perfected 2h ~6.7% difference.
staff vs perfected staff 50% difference.

Well

Exactly, that the problem.

Suggestion:
- Asylum Destro: You have a 33% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock
- Perfect Asylum Destro: You have a 40% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock

That brings the difference on par with 2H.

Please no RNG.... implementing RNG into these weapons will make things so much less fun.

It was only a suggestion, but I would prefer a 33% proc chance than "every 3rd attack". Mathematically it works out the same and at least, if the visual signs are easy to spot, I can use my burst on time with the off-balance when it procs.

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Now deactivate asylum weapons for cyrodiil please.

There is no reason to lock pvp best in slot weapons behind vet hardmode pve minitrials.

I think you are approaching the subject from an angle that is unacceptable to ZOS.

They want to make their new product appealing to both PvPers and PvErs to maximise the number of players that subscribe or purchase the DLC. Like they previously did with Maelstrom Arena, Monster Helms, Dragonstar Arena. They all had equipment that was at one time BiS for certain builds in PvP.

There is 0 chance they will make those sets only useful to PvE now. They might do that at a later date, in the same way they went with the vMA and vDSA weapon nerfs. Once they've sold as many copies of CWC as they could basically. I don't blame them, ultimately they need to be selling DLCs for the game to turn a profit and thus continue to exist.

I understand the argument that for the first time these weapons are locked behind a hard mode vet Trial and I agree that's terrible design because those are inaccessible to the vast majority of people. Not because of lack of skill or effort but because it requires a loooot of organisation to put repeated 12-person raids together.

The best way I can think of handling that is to massively decrease the benefit of Asylum to Perfect Asylum weapons. Which is the opposite of what they've just done with the staves.

Derra wrote: »

2h vs perfected 2h ~6.7% difference.
staff vs perfected staff 50% difference.

Well

Exactly, that the problem.

Suggestion:
- Asylum Destro: You have a 33% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock
- Perfect Asylum Destro: You have a 40% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock

That brings the difference on par with 2H.

Same chance applying status effects with any other weapon. : /

Errr no? Not even close. What are you talking about?

I will post my reply from earlier in the thread to help illustrate.


What is the difference between this staff and using a charged trait staff? Does this staff give separate status effects from normal, like the burning from burning spell weave is different from the burning proc from everything else?

Since when you use force pulse, you have a base 10% chance to get these effects and charged adds 22% on top of that, plus the elemental force passive for another 10%, that is 42% chance everytime you cast force pulse to get the status effects, pretty much the same as this staff, every other cast. Then you can have the staff in pretty much any other set that you want.

Then there is the fact that charged also adds 220% more chance to the rest of your attacks too, not just force pulse.

Derra

Artis wrote: »

@idk

the point of discussions is to get to the truth. In this case, your point is that vet HM should have any usable rewards that makes running it worth it, as opposed to running non HM. I disagree and said my arguments, but haven't seen yours. No point in not keeping it going. Why shouldn't players who can do harder content be rewarded with something meaningful they need to work towards and that they can only get there (which is the main motivator for most players). Yes, some players raid for gear and those are the majority. So to make them progress they need to know they can get a gear they can't get otherwise.

And that's great for everyone. IT's a win-win situation. They have something to work towards and will be rewarded for it. People who raid for fun will have a bigger pool to draw from. Raiding population will be healthier.

What about the people that do not want to raid because they don´t find it fun but need the weapons to compete in other activities?
Or the people that for whatever reason can´t compete in a raiding scenario.

It´s a win situation for people that want to raid. There´s enough people playing eso because they don´t want to raid to be competetive. You have other games that accomodate for that much better.

Artis

Izaki wrote: »

^ That suggestion is awesome. Make a post woth this one.

Facepalm. How is it awesome?

idk wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

@idk

the point of discussions is to get to the truth. In this case, your point is that vet HM should have any usable rewards that makes running it worth it, as opposed to running non HM. I disagree and said my arguments, but haven't seen yours. No point in not keeping it going. Why shouldn't players who can do harder content be rewarded with something meaningful they need to work towards and that they can only get there (which is the main motivator for most players). Yes, some players raid for gear and those are the majority. So to make them progress they need to know they can get a gear they can't get otherwise.

And that's great for everyone. IT's a win-win situation. They have something to work towards and will be rewarded for it. People who raid for fun will have a bigger pool to draw from. Raiding population will be healthier.

Not my point at all and there is no truth on this subject. Merely opinions. Also, a the majority of those who enjoy raiding, that would actually be considered raiders, get their gear many times over in the end outside of the low drop rate of desired weapons.

Besides, you disagree with me, but apparently agree with person I basically agree with? Really does not make sense.

Of course I disagree with that person, that's why I replied to the last comment so that I could quote both comments.

No, not opinions. Talking about numbers there are no opinions. One of us is right. One of two ways will result in bigger amount of people raiding, than the other.

Now getting their gear many times over and over is exactly the problem. That's why giving 2 pieces of gear they already have is not an "awesome" suggestion. It has to be something like a needed consumable or lots of gold/plunder and the fact that those weapons can't be gotten in easier content : the fact that not everyone has them or even can have them makes them valuable and worth working towards.

Derra wrote: »

What about the people that do not want to raid because they don´t find it fun but need the weapons to compete in other activities?
Or the people that for whatever reason can´t compete in a raiding scenario.

It´s a win situation for people that want to raid. There´s enough people playing eso because they don´t want to raid to be competetive. You have other games that accomodate for that much better.

Very simple. Those people don't need those weapons then. Do not mistake want for need, please. All content except for the hardest is balanced for lower CP and pre-existing gear and can reliably be completed without those weapons.

And if they want to compete than they need to everything other competitors are ready to do. If it includes raiding - than they need to raid, too. Maybe those other players don't want to raid too. Maybe no one wants to raid vet HM. But the rules are there and the rules are the same for everyone. Want to complete, get higher score etc? Get gear that drops in content you might or might not like, use builds that you might or might not like, etc. Not everyone liked CoA or vMA but they farmed them if they wanted to compete. Not everyone likes attack weaving and prefers just using skills and only 1 hand for dealing damage, but does that if they want to compete. Of course, we can just have unicorns and rainbows and give best gear for crafting writs, in case some players find those more fun than fighting.

And yes, that's right. People need to want to raid. So there are two ways of making this happen that work differently on different categories. And one of them is to put a reward that people will want to get there.

Derra

Artis wrote: »

Very simple. Those people don't need those weapons then. Do not mistake want for need, please. All content except for the hardest is balanced for lower CP and pre-existing gear and can reliably be completed without those weapons.

And if they want to compete than they need to everything other competitors are ready to do. If it includes raiding - than they need to raid, too. Maybe those other players don't want to raid too. Maybe no one wants to raid vet HM. But the rules are there and the rules are the same for everyone. Want to complete, get higher score etc? Get gear that drops in content you might or might not like, use builds that you might or might not like, etc. Not everyone liked CoA or vMA but they farmed them if they wanted to compete. Not everyone likes attack weaving and prefers just using skills and only 1 hand for dealing damage, but does that if they want to compete. Of course, we can just have unicorns and rainbows and give best gear for crafting writs, in case some players find those more fun than fighting.

And yes, that's right. People need to want to raid. So there are two ways of making this happen that work differently on different categories. And one of them is to put a reward that people will want to get there.

PvP is not - as pvp is balanced by the gear and players present.
As soon as someone shows up in pvp with that weapon the content is automatically balanced to that weapon as a point of reference.

Also i simply can´t get behind the argument rules is rules. What does the game have to gain from forcing down content on people that don´t want to play it.
Putting a reward to go there does not make people want to raid. It makes people have to raid.

This is a game. Games are supposed to be fun. Raiding simply isn´t for most.
How´s a situation where people have no fun doing the content they play even remotely desireable in your world?

Ah right - you justify that by having more people to drawn from a pool for the people that do find the activity fun. Now isn´t that being elitist? Putting your own idea of what´s fun over those of other people?
Wanting to instrumentalize other people so your idea of what´s fun gets more enjoyable for you - not them?

Maulkin

Izaki wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

2h vs perfected 2h ~6.7% difference.
staff vs perfected staff 50% difference.

Well

Exactly, that the problem.

Suggestion:
- Asylum Destro: You have a 33% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock
- Perfect Asylum Destro: You have a 40% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock

That brings the difference on par with 2H.

Please no RNG.... implementing RNG into these weapons will make things so much less fun.

It was only a suggestion, but I would prefer a 33% proc chance than "every 3rd attack". Mathematically it works out the same and at least, if the visual signs are easy to spot, I can use my burst on time with the off-balance when it procs.

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Now deactivate asylum weapons for cyrodiil please.

There is no reason to lock pvp best in slot weapons behind vet hardmode pve minitrials.

I think you are approaching the subject from an angle that is unacceptable to ZOS.

They want to make their new product appealing to both PvPers and PvErs to maximise the number of players that subscribe or purchase the DLC. Like they previously did with Maelstrom Arena, Monster Helms, Dragonstar Arena. They all had equipment that was at one time BiS for certain builds in PvP.

There is 0 chance they will make those sets only useful to PvE now. They might do that at a later date, in the same way they went with the vMA and vDSA weapon nerfs. Once they've sold as many copies of CWC as they could basically. I don't blame them, ultimately they need to be selling DLCs for the game to turn a profit and thus continue to exist.

I understand the argument that for the first time these weapons are locked behind a hard mode vet Trial and I agree that's terrible design because those are inaccessible to the vast majority of people. Not because of lack of skill or effort but because it requires a loooot of organisation to put repeated 12-person raids together.

The best way I can think of handling that is to massively decrease the benefit of Asylum to Perfect Asylum weapons. Which is the opposite of what they've just done with the staves.

Derra wrote: »

2h vs perfected 2h ~6.7% difference.
staff vs perfected staff 50% difference.

Well

Exactly, that the problem.

Suggestion:
- Asylum Destro: You have a 33% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock
- Perfect Asylum Destro: You have a 40% chance to apply all 3 status effects for 4 seconds when using Force Shock

That brings the difference on par with 2H.

Same chance applying status effects with any other weapon. : /

Errr no? Not even close. What are you talking about?

If non off balance its concussion. 2 very different things.

Yep sorry my bad. I meant the Concussed effect that applies Minor Vulnerability and makes them take 8% more damage. It creates a window for increased burst.

DPShiro

Artis wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

^ That suggestion is awesome. Make a post woth this one.

Facepalm. How is it awesome?

idk wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

@idk

the point of discussions is to get to the truth. In this case, your point is that vet HM should have any usable rewards that makes running it worth it, as opposed to running non HM. I disagree and said my arguments, but haven't seen yours. No point in not keeping it going. Why shouldn't players who can do harder content be rewarded with something meaningful they need to work towards and that they can only get there (which is the main motivator for most players). Yes, some players raid for gear and those are the majority. So to make them progress they need to know they can get a gear they can't get otherwise.

And that's great for everyone. IT's a win-win situation. They have something to work towards and will be rewarded for it. People who raid for fun will have a bigger pool to draw from. Raiding population will be healthier.

Not my point at all and there is no truth on this subject. Merely opinions. Also, a the majority of those who enjoy raiding, that would actually be considered raiders, get their gear many times over in the end outside of the low drop rate of desired weapons.

Besides, you disagree with me, but apparently agree with person I basically agree with? Really does not make sense.

Of course I disagree with that person, that's why I replied to the last comment so that I could quote both comments.

No, not opinions. Talking about numbers there are no opinions. One of us is right. One of two ways will result in bigger amount of people raiding, than the other.

Now getting their gear many times over and over is exactly the problem. That's why giving 2 pieces of gear they already have is not an "awesome" suggestion. It has to be something like a needed consumable or lots of gold/plunder and the fact that those weapons can't be gotten in easier content : the fact that not everyone has them or even can have them makes them valuable and worth working towards.

Derra wrote: »

What about the people that do not want to raid because they don´t find it fun but need the weapons to compete in other activities?
Or the people that for whatever reason can´t compete in a raiding scenario.

It´s a win situation for people that want to raid. There´s enough people playing eso because they don´t want to raid to be competetive. You have other games that accomodate for that much better.

Very simple. Those people don't need those weapons then. Do not mistake want for need, please. All content except for the hardest is balanced for lower CP and pre-existing gear and can reliably be completed without those weapons.

And if they want to compete than they need to everything other competitors are ready to do. If it includes raiding - than they need to raid, too. Maybe those other players don't want to raid too. Maybe no one wants to raid vet HM. But the rules are there and the rules are the same for everyone. Want to complete, get higher score etc? Get gear that drops in content you might or might not like, use builds that you might or might not like, etc. Not everyone liked CoA or vMA but they farmed them if they wanted to compete. Not everyone likes attack weaving and prefers just using skills and only 1 hand for dealing damage, but does that if they want to compete. Of course, we can just have unicorns and rainbows and give best gear for crafting writs, in case some players find those more fun than fighting.

And yes, that's right. People need to want to raid. So there are two ways of making this happen that work differently on different categories. And one of them is to put a reward that people will want to get there.

Well said, completely agree.

code65536

Artis wrote: »

How is this a good suggestion? I can only equip 1 perfected weapon, giving me 2 is not a reward, when someone who doesn't put time into overcoming vet HM can still have that weapon equipped. So really? Giving me 2 weapons that will be deconstructed anyway is a good suggestion? Think again. Vet HM being about score and prestige only is a bad thing and a problem - that leads to many people not even bothering with vet HMs and then you only have so many groups doing them (and mostly these groups overlap where you have a couple of guilds pretty much sharing almost entire core groups) and it's way too hard to join them, and it's difficult to start a new one because most players don't care. Vet HM needs to be worth not only completing once, but also farming. And if you give a perfected weapon for vet non hm, then 2 perfected weapons of vet hm simply don't matter.

Score and prestige stopped mattering when they first reset the leader board. The only prestige that matters is that others will see you have a weapon they don't/can't have.

So why are you raiding then? Surely it can't be for the two gold jewelry pieces that you vendor each night or the gear that you decon for purple mats.

By your argument, our group would've disbanded as soon as we got our clear or just farmed for whatever gear we needed by running normal mode. Yet we still run, people sign up eagerly for vHoF runs and "LFM nHoF" advertisements in guild are met with silence.

Because it feels good to do better than before. That should be incentive enough. And people who aren't incentivized by that are people who are not going to enjoy being "forced" to run that content in order to keep abreast in, non-group content (e.g., vMA) or non-PvE content.

Speaking of vMA, let's use that as an example. There are two kinds of people who run vMA. There's the person who hates it but runs it again and again because they need that weapon, and it's not uncommon for them to end up quitting the game angry and embittered. And there are people who have all the weapons they need, but keep running it because they actually like the content and/or are trying to improve their score and compete. One of these is good, and the other is unhealthy, but in your view, as long as they enter the arena, it's all good. Which is probably how ZOS sees things--they look at their internal statistics and see so many people running vMA over and over again and think, "That must be a lot of happy players who love vMA!" when in reality many of those are increasingly triggered by the game and are on the verge of uninstalling the game.

Which then brings me to the point of why double weapons are actually a good reward. The weapon loot table is so large that it's going to take time for people to finally get the weapon that they want. Double drops to lessen the grind is a nice reward (certainly better than double jewelry from the HM of other trials), but not something that gates player power behind an unreasonable wall.

Furthermore, Asylum HM will have plenty of incentives that don't involve power: a skin, a title, and a chance at a tradeable polymorph that I'd imagine would sell for millions.

For the sake of game balance, items that affect player power should be accessible. vMA is pretty accessible to a lot of people (even people who typically don't do endgame PvE), and that's a good thing. And for some weapons (like the destro being discussed in this thread), the difference between perfected and non-perfected is so wide that having a weapon like that out of the reach of so many is probably not healthy for balance.

Let hardmodes be what they've always been: things that people chase after for prestige, competition, progression, and personal satisfaction. And for people who play at the kind of level needed for that difficulty, those are the things that matter anyway. After all, if gear is all that matters as you seem to imply, why the bloody blazes do you still go into vHoF with me each weekend?

idk

@Artis

The discussion is about opinions. How many of what and where may include numbers but the only thing we have discussed is opinions. Nothing more.

sevomd69

casparian wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Simple fix to make this not an utterly broken weapon and still retain PVE strength -

"Completing a fully charged heavy attack applies all Burning, Concussed, Chilled on the enemy with the next force pulse. This can happen once every 5 seconds."

+1

I would prefer this change as well. Its unlikely that we will get it this way, but this would certainly be more usable.

That would screw up wonderful rotations like this one. Half the reason I play magblade in PVE is so that I don't have to heavy attack very often as a regular part of my rotation.

But...you don't "have to" use the new asylum staff...

DPShiro

code65536 wrote: »

Yet we still run, people sign up eagerly for vHoF runs and "LFM nHoF" advertisements in guild are met with silence.



Furthermore, Asylum HM will have plenty of incentives that don't involve power: a skin, a title, and a chance at a tradeable polymorph that I'd imagine would sell for millions.

Most people want to run Veteran HoF for the skin and gold jewelry, but everyone farms gear on normal, since the difference is only a few upgrade mats, which is poo imo.

Veteran AS already gets you the skin, no need to do HM for that for most people.
It’s only incentive for most are the Polymorph from HM.
But that would change if a slightly better weapon was available from it, and would make people actually try it out and progress it if they really wanted it.

I really hope they make it BoP and not sellable since I honestly though that not having a guaranteed drop would be their way of countering the “skin sellers” in vMoL/vHoF.

code65536

DPShiro wrote: »

Most people want to run Veteran HoF for the skin and gold jewelry, but everyone farms gear on normal, since the difference is only a few upgrade mats, which is poo imo.

The ugly skin that we got months ago? The gold jewelry that we automatically vendor? I haven't seen anyone in my guild do nHoF in over a month--people only run vet. Trials are only about gear for the first few weeks. If we are to believe that people only run trials for the gear, then nobody would be running HoF at this point since we got the gear ages ago. But we still do, precisely because gear is a means to an end--people run endgame content because it's endgame content, and the gear is something they get to facilitate that, not the primary reason for running the content.

DPShiro wrote: »

Veteran AS already gets you the skin, no need to do HM for that for most people.

Have you been on the PTS? The skin requires HM.

DPShiro wrote: »

I really hope they make it BoP and not sellable since I honestly though that not having a guaranteed drop would be their way of countering the “skin sellers” in vMoL/vHoF.

No, the polymorph is in a BoE runebox and sellable. Have you been on the PTS? vAS non-HM is pretty accessible. But vAS HM is complete and utter mayhem that makes vMoL HM look like easy child's play. I would be surprised if HM gets completed soon after all the buffs that they made to it (it's now completely different and much harder than what it was in PTS week 1 and week 1 strats will no longer work). In its current state, I wouldn't expect there to be many completions of HM when it hits live. With the inaccessibility of HM combined with the rarity of the polymorph drop when you do complete HM, I would expect the polymorph to sell for millions of gold at a minimum. Which, if you look at it from the perspective of endgame PvEers making money, is probably a good thing. (Though I'm not sure that's a good thing for the game as a whole.)

And this inaccessibility of HM is a big reason why I think the gate for perfected should be vet, not vet HM. Either that, or the gap between perfected and non-perfected be significantly narrowed for the destro. As people pointed out, not everyone will use these weapons for 12-man raids. Some will want it for PvP. Some will want it for solo or small-group content. And gating it behind a 12-man PvE hardmode is just a bad idea, period. The incentive for hardmodes should always be about prestige, never power, and I say that as someone who has completed all the existing hardmodes.

DPShiro

code65536 wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Most people want to run Veteran HoF for the skin and gold jewelry, but everyone farms gear on normal, since the difference is only a few upgrade mats, which is poo imo.

The ugly skin that we got months ago? The gold jewelry that we automatically vendor? I haven't seen anyone in my guild do nHoF in over a month--people only run vet. Trials are only about gear for the first few weeks. If we are to believe that people only run trials for the gear, then nobody would be running HoF at this point since we got the gear ages ago. But we still do, precisely because gear is a means to an end--people run endgame content because it's endgame content, and the gear is something they get to facilitate that, not the primary reason for running the content.

DPShiro wrote: »

Veteran AS already gets you the skin, no need to do HM for that for most people.

Have you been on the PTS? The skin requires HM.

DPShiro wrote: »

I really hope they make it BoP and not sellable since I honestly though that not having a guaranteed drop would be their way of countering the “skin sellers” in vMoL/vHoF.

No, the polymorph is in a BoE runebox and sellable. Have you been on the PTS? vAS non-HM is pretty accessible. But vAS HM is complete and utter mayhem that makes vMoL HM look like easy child's play. I would be surprised if HM gets completed soon after all the buffs that they made to it (it's now completely different and much harder than what it was in PTS week 1 and week 1 strats will no longer work). In its current state, I wouldn't expect there to be many completions of HM when it hits live. With the inaccessibility of HM combined with the rarity of the polymorph drop when you do complete HM, I would expect the polymorph to sell for millions of gold at a minimum. Which, if you look at it from the perspective of endgame PvEers making money, is probably a good thing. (Though I'm not sure that's a good thing for the game as a whole.)

That was my point, at release everyone farmed gear on normal, then Veteran for the jewelry. Most people who run trials now vet/HM do it for scores, and you usually don’t do sign ups if going for score, you do that with your core team.


Really? I assumed skin was Veteran non HM, Hanks for clearing that up. Both are ugly as sin though, except the Polymorph.
And no, I don’t have access to PTS.
I would rather have the Polymorph box BoP though, gold is easy enough to get in this game anyway and not much to spend it on.

code65536

DPShiro wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

Most people want to run Veteran HoF for the skin and gold jewelry, but everyone farms gear on normal, since the difference is only a few upgrade mats, which is poo imo.

The ugly skin that we got months ago? The gold jewelry that we automatically vendor? I haven't seen anyone in my guild do nHoF in over a month--people only run vet. Trials are only about gear for the first few weeks. If we are to believe that people only run trials for the gear, then nobody would be running HoF at this point since we got the gear ages ago. But we still do, precisely because gear is a means to an end--people run endgame content because it's endgame content, and the gear is something they get to facilitate that, not the primary reason for running the content.

DPShiro wrote: »

Veteran AS already gets you the skin, no need to do HM for that for most people.

Have you been on the PTS? The skin requires HM.

DPShiro wrote: »

I really hope they make it BoP and not sellable since I honestly though that not having a guaranteed drop would be their way of countering the “skin sellers” in vMoL/vHoF.

No, the polymorph is in a BoE runebox and sellable. Have you been on the PTS? vAS non-HM is pretty accessible. But vAS HM is complete and utter mayhem that makes vMoL HM look like easy child's play. I would be surprised if HM gets completed soon after all the buffs that they made to it (it's now completely different and much harder than what it was in PTS week 1 and week 1 strats will no longer work). In its current state, I wouldn't expect there to be many completions of HM when it hits live. With the inaccessibility of HM combined with the rarity of the polymorph drop when you do complete HM, I would expect the polymorph to sell for millions of gold at a minimum. Which, if you look at it from the perspective of endgame PvEers making money, is probably a good thing. (Though I'm not sure that's a good thing for the game as a whole.)

That was my point, at release everyone farmed gear on normal, then Veteran for the jewelry. Most people who run trials now vet/HM do it for scores, and you usually don’t do sign ups if going for score, you do that with your core team.


Really? I assumed skin was Veteran non HM, Hanks for clearing that up. Both are ugly as sin though, except the Polymorph.
And no, I don’t have access to PTS.
I would rather have the Polymorph box BoP though, gold is easy enough to get in this game anyway and not much to spend it on.

And my point was that Artis was arguing that weapons should be gated behind HM so get people to run HM. That's artificially forcing people into doing content for the wrong reasons. People should do content because they want to do that content--for the prestige, for the sense of accomplishment, etc.--not because of gated gear.

There are many different good answers to the question, "How do we get people interested in vet HM trials?", but "Let's hide gear and player power behind them." is not one of them.

Feanor

How do we get people interested in vet HM Trials? I think making them less of "an hour long wading through Million health trash mobs "would be a good start.

Lord-Otto

Let's not get carried away.

The point still standing is that non-perfect AS is too far behind the super-rare perfected one. I would suggest giving it a chance for the effect or a cooldown. Easier to balance.


To the recent discussion...

People quit raiding once they got their gear. Leaving those that didn't in the dust. Gathering twelve strangers to beat a super hardcore dungeon is extremely frustrating. It will make you feel bad and you'll just give up.

Why not just give us the gear and be done with it? As in, have more accessible ways to get it.
People with good gear are happy people. They can play the mode they want, which makes them even happier. Happy people return to the game. Happy people spend money on cosmetics. It's a win for the devs and the players.

Elite raiders have skins and the leaderboard. I am choking when I think about having to get an elite 12-man-team for PvE to get a weapon for PvP. Can I please just get it from PvP leaderboard rewards? Like Master weapons used to? Like, actually get rewards from an activity I like to do? That makes me happy.

kojou

Feanor wrote: »

How do we get people interested in vet HM Trials? I think making them less of "an hour long wading through Million health trash mobs "would be a good start.

Add to that "While holding down the left mouse button, because who has resources to spam AoE..."

DeHei

Maybe they better had to leave that staffs like they was... no rotation is efficient with 2or 3 force pulse.. status effects just hold 4 seconds..
So RIP Asylum destrostaff for BiS for soloplayer.. In raids its fine anymore

kojou

DeHei wrote: »

Maybe they better had to leave that staffs like they was... no rotation is efficient with 2or 3 force pulse.. status effects just hold 4 seconds..
So RIP Asylum destrostaff for BiS for soloplayer.. In raids its fine anymore

With 2 Force Pulses to activate you can have 2 ranged DPS in a raid work it into their rotation and have pretty good up-time.

Solo, I agree with you, and I think that was the intention of the nerf. They wanted to make it less desirable for solo PvP.

I don't understand why we couldn't have basically the same concept (activate on 2nd Force Pulse), but have a longer cool down on the non-perfect one. Then it wouldn't be useless, but still not a staff that "over performs" (although I still think this is debatable) in PvP.

DeHei

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Maybe they better had to leave that staffs like they was... no rotation is efficient with 2or 3 force pulse.. status effects just hold 4 seconds..
So RIP Asylum destrostaff for BiS for soloplayer.. In raids its fine anymore

With 2 Force Pulses to activate you can have 2 ranged DPS in a raid work it into their rotation and have pretty good up-time.

Solo, I agree with you, and I think that was the intention of the nerf. They wanted to make it less desirable for solo PvP.

I don't understand why we couldn't have basically the same concept (activate on 2nd Force Pulse), but have a longer cool down on the non-perfect one. Then it wouldn't be useless, but still not a staff that "over performs" (although I still think this is debatable) in PvP.

I think they had better reduce the uptime with this staffs. -2 sec for perfected and -3 sec for inperfected. Now you need to cast force pulse few times and that is not practicable for most classes..

But i totally agree that they needed to reduce the effect for PvP

Artis

Derra wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Very simple. Those people don't need those weapons then. Do not mistake want for need, please. All content except for the hardest is balanced for lower CP and pre-existing gear and can reliably be completed without those weapons.

And if they want to compete than they need to everything other competitors are ready to do. If it includes raiding - than they need to raid, too. Maybe those other players don't want to raid too. Maybe no one wants to raid vet HM. But the rules are there and the rules are the same for everyone. Want to complete, get higher score etc? Get gear that drops in content you might or might not like, use builds that you might or might not like, etc. Not everyone liked CoA or vMA but they farmed them if they wanted to compete. Not everyone likes attack weaving and prefers just using skills and only 1 hand for dealing damage, but does that if they want to compete. Of course, we can just have unicorns and rainbows and give best gear for crafting writs, in case some players find those more fun than fighting.

And yes, that's right. People need to want to raid. So there are two ways of making this happen that work differently on different categories. And one of them is to put a reward that people will want to get there.

PvP is not - as pvp is balanced by the gear and players present.
As soon as someone shows up in pvp with that weapon the content is automatically balanced to that weapon as a point of reference.

Also i simply can´t get behind the argument rules is rules. What does the game have to gain from forcing down content on people that don´t want to play it.
Putting a reward to go there does not make people want to raid. It makes people have to raid.

This is a game. Games are supposed to be fun. Raiding simply isn´t for most.
How´s a situation where people have no fun doing the content they play even remotely desireable in your world?

Ah right - you justify that by having more people to drawn from a pool for the people that do find the activity fun. Now isn´t that being elitist? Putting your own idea of what´s fun over those of other people?
Wanting to instrumentalize other people so your idea of what´s fun gets more enjoyable for you - not them?

Yep, so then it is. If, as you said, only 0.2% players will have those weapons, and even less of those weapons will make it to PvP, then introducing a couple of them won't change the balance. Especially since there is no MMR or anything of a sort. Weapon will not change much - there are whole different builds and classes that are not balanced.

It's not forcing anyone. It's adding content. You want to compete? Do everything that your competitors are ready to do and some more. Yes, putting a reward makes them want to raid to have something they want. They shouldn't leave those completing hardest content without cool rewards just because your lazy arse wants to get everything from preferred content. Can I have my stuff from crafting writs, I find those fun. Or pledges?

That's right. Supposed to be fun. So you choose what to do for fun. If it'snot fun - don't do it. Or you think people who compete in achievement points want to go fishing or farm trophies? Or PvP (If they are pvers)? They don't. But achievements are there, so they have to do what others are ready to do if they want to compete.

That's right. That's why there are skills and skyshards etc in Cyrodiil - so people have to go there. But I don't remember you asking to remove anything but PvP from cyro, or remove achievement score, or to remove animation cancelling (the game should be fun, I should bother with attack weaving and be punished for not executing it well,right?), etc.. And if it's not fun for them - they shouldn't go.

That was about you in particular, now using abstract you and abstract I, if I have to work on my achievements no matter how not fun it is for me, I don't see you refusing to by my roe or exp drinks that I will list if I'm working on fishing, I don't see you objecting and not fighting with me if I'm in your team on BG or in cyro working on those achievements and grand overlord, I don't see you objecting that you have me to run pledges with if you level Undaunted on your alt - I bet you wouldn't like just doing solo dailies for 10 exp a day, etc. I don't see you not expecting me to farm gold to gold out my gear to perform better, even if farming gold is not fun for me, but you do expect me to do my best, say, in raid. You happily instrumentalize other people yourself.

In fact, there is a thread showing that some people don't find attack weaving fun. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/374388/animation-cancelling-bar-swapping-and-weaving-are-not-fun/p1
Should they be able to compete without using it?

code65536 wrote: »

So why are you raiding then? Surely it can't be for the two gold jewelry pieces that you vendor each night or the gear that you decon for purple mats.

By your argument, our group would've disbanded as soon as we got our clear or just farmed for whatever gear we needed by running normal mode. Yet we still run, people sign up eagerly for vHoF runs and "LFM nHoF" advertisements in guild are met with silence.

Because it feels good to do better than before. That should be incentive enough. And people who aren't incentivized by that are people who are not going to enjoy being "forced" to run that content in order to keep abreast in, non-group content (e.g., vMA) or non-PvE content.

Speaking of vMA, let's use that as an example. There are two kinds of people who run vMA. There's the person who hates it but runs it again and again because they need that weapon, and it's not uncommon for them to end up quitting the game angry and embittered. And there are people who have all the weapons they need, but keep running it because they actually like the content and/or are trying to improve their score and compete. One of these is good, and the other is unhealthy, but in your view, as long as they enter the arena, it's all good. Which is probably how ZOS sees things--they look at their internal statistics and see so many people running vMA over and over again and think, "That must be a lot of happy players who love vMA!" when in reality many of those are increasingly triggered by the game and are on the verge of uninstalling the game.

Which then brings me to the point of why double weapons are actually a good reward. The weapon loot table is so large that it's going to take time for people to finally get the weapon that they want. Double drops to lessen the grind is a nice reward (certainly better than double jewelry from the HM of other trials), but not something that gates player power behind an unreasonable wall.

Furthermore, Asylum HM will have plenty of incentives that don't involve power: a skin, a title, and a chance at a tradeable polymorph that I'd imagine would sell for millions.

For the sake of game balance, items that affect player power should be accessible. vMA is pretty accessible to a lot of people (even people who typically don't do endgame PvE), and that's a good thing. And for some weapons (like the destro being discussed in this thread), the difference between perfected and non-perfected is so wide that having a weapon like that out of the reach of so many is probably not healthy for balance.

Let hardmodes be what they've always been: things that people chase after for prestige, competition, progression, and personal satisfaction. And for people who play at the kind of level needed for that difficulty, those are the things that matter anyway. After all, if gear is all that matters as you seem to imply, why the bloody blazes do you still go into vHoF with me each weekend?

Why do people go to the gym or diet? I have my goals and have to stay in shape so I can stay relevant and find a group to reach those goals or not fall behind my current groups too much. Also, because I like playing the game, but I can't find people to run 4man DLC dungeons for example - which are my favorite group content. And yes, a part of it is being able to complete something not everyone can complete (that's why I prefer raids and DLC dungeons and don't go to Fungal Grotto which might be fun for others, right?) and getting cool stuff I will use that will make me stronger and that others can't have. Even jewelry - yes, I vendor it after some point. But if I'm using it (which I'm not lol, up to 4 pieces it's identical to moondancer anyway, which sucks and sets should be more unique imo) that's because I can complete content that drops it and I know that people who can't complete it - don't and can't wear it in principle. Which is what makes it more valuable and rewarding.

No, my logic doesn't predict that the group will fall apart. Never have I ever said anything about every single player.Never seen nHoF ads, I play later this semester, too. But in the past I would constantly see people farming nAA (not vet AA), nSO(not vet SO), nMoL. All the time. When they are not fun. So why would people farm them in a guild that can clear them in vet? Because they want gear more. They could have fun and get gear, but fun is secondary for them, if they are ready to spend so much time grinding just to get gear to then play the same thing in vet with that gear? When they could play vet anyway and then get that gear? Like no you don't see anything odd about this? And that's when they could do something more fun and challenging, like DLC hms or something that require less people and are easier to organize. Yet, at the time all my pve guilds people would rather farm normal trials, normal CoA etc.

If people aren't incentivized by that AND rewards, then they shouldn't run it. But it's not like this system is binary and only one of them should be enough. For example, it could be that a person is NOT incentivized by gear only , but if the trial and group make it seem that it will be fun and they have nothing better to do - they will go. On the other hand people can like raiding, but not like a certain trial, but will go if reward is good enough. AND enjoy it because the combination of fun+reward is hitting the threshold.

vMA point falls on deaf ears here. Don't like it - don't run it. Unless you want to compete/stay relevant. In which case you have to do what others are ready to do. And that's not up to game devs to change. It's the nature of any competition. You will stop gating gear behind content and make everything crafted? Sure. Then people who don't have fun spamming LMB+skill will be forced to learn attack weaving (already are), so should that be removed? Or will you say that it makes combat fluent and should stay? But that's just your opinion, right? So should you dumb the game down to the lowest common denominator? I don't think so. While you will never satisfy cry babies until the game turns into tic tac toe or checkers or something, you will lose people who don't feel rewarded for doing content. And competition is competition. If I have to fish to get achievements, I have to fish, because there are other players who got what I got AND got fishing. Whether it's fun for me or not. So should we not gate anything behind anything that is not fun for at least someone? If you want to compete in just 1 certain thing, say PvP, then there are games that have nothing but PvP. If you compete in anything in MMO, then you need to understand that they are more complex and you might have to compete different content.

That doesn't make double weapons a good reward. Especially now that you can retrait gear. You will get the one you need very soon, and then what? It's the same as your jewelry example. It's ONLY a good reward if there is no other way to get it. And I fail to see an unreasonable wall. It's PvE. If other players are completing it, then I can complete it, too.

Those are nice things, but don't make me stronger compared to how I strong I am if I'm only completing non HM. Skin is a subjective thing and I probably won't use it. Title - maybe, that's not bad. But with how many titles there are in game already... And again, doesn't change my character at all, the stats are still the same. Polymorph with a small drop rate? Odds are I will never even get it, so that's not a reward I can count on.

Everything is accessible. If there's will, there's way. Those things are only really needed for those who want to compete. And in that case - you do what competitors are willing to do. And it's a good thing if competition can have multiple levels and be as deep as vet HM.

Progression includes gear progression. Gear is not all that matters to me, but it was matters to a lot of people, as shown by people farming normal trials in the past. And we don't balance the game around me anyway. As for me - I still could use some gear from there. But also I like the group and liked playing with you before joining the raid group in some 4man dungeons and sometimes I feel like I fit in and am a part of something and can even talk in TS sometimes. Plus,again, I want to be somewhat in good shape - I like knowing I can complete something difficult.

Either way, I don't see it how forcing anything. Not more than forcing me to fish or farm gold. I don't see it as gating anything, I see it as rewarding me with something meaningful I will actually use for doing harder content and it will be a help in doing that harder content. Or are you saying that harder content shouldn't be rewarded with anything useful?

Artis

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Why not just give us the gear and be done with it? As in, have more accessible ways to get it.
People with good gear are happy people. They can play the mode they want, which makes them even happier. Happy people return to the game. Happy people spend money on cosmetics. It's a win for the devs and the players.

As a matter of fact, people can play the mode they want without every single piece of gear. That gear we're talking about is for competitive players, and competition implies you need to do everything others will do or accept that they will have something you don't.

As for happiness. It's been shown that people tend to leave game, not just raiding, if they get everything and have nothing to work towards. Some of the relevant findings of behavioral psychology are summed up here.

I mean, I understand that you think things should be the way you're saying, and that maybe you and your friends would play more that way (which you wouldn't know until you get there), but the numbers show that the truth is actually the opposite of what you're saying. Everyone is an outlier in their mind, though, am I right? I think I would't quit too, but who knows. Now that I don't have much to work towards, I have nothing to do between raids and find myself just running around more often.

p.s. also see overjustification effect: when rewards do not reflect competence, higher rewards lead to less intrinsic motivation. But when rewards do reflect competence, higher rewards lead to greater intrinsic motivation. http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1981-25824-001.

@idk, no it's not about opinions. It's about what things are more or less likely to lead to. There are studies (some of which or the summaries are linked above), there are numbers gathered during decades by MMO industry, which we don't have access to, but there's a reason games are designed the way they are designed... demand creates supply. You don't think zos is just taking chances here, do you?

Karmanorway

Camb0Sl1ce wrote: »

I knew it was gonna get gutted, enough pvpers whine about it and now both the perfect and imperfect are pretty useless.

As always*

idk

Artis wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Why not just give us the gear and be done with it? As in, have more accessible ways to get it.
People with good gear are happy people. They can play the mode they want, which makes them even happier. Happy people return to the game. Happy people spend money on cosmetics. It's a win for the devs and the players.

@idk, no it's not about opinions. It's about what things are more or less likely to lead to. There are studies (some of which or the summaries are linked above), there are numbers gathered during decades by MMO industry, which we don't have access to, but there's a reason games are designed the way they are designed... demand creates supply. You don't think zos is just taking chances here, do you?

It is about opinions. You have an opinion about the effect which is only partially right, read above, and I have an opinion. Most, if not all, that I know that raid do it because they enjoy it. The continue well after they have all the gear they need and want.

Read the response code has made on this page. After all, my agreeing with him is the only reason you are replying to me. He seems to have a solid grasp on this from a raiders perspective.