Would you like Perfect Asylum weapons to drop from Veteran difficulty, rather than only Veteran HM?

Vesper_BR · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should sometimes drop from Veteran non-HM

Give the hard mode aesthetic rewards. That's is very best in my humble opinion...

Give them shining weapons or shining armors to make them visible and proud of accomplishments they made... It's not good to make already best pve players even better and letting the ones who want to do the content frustrated.

Remember that eso is all about paying for cosmetics, that what this game so amazing compared to others pay to win mmos.

kylewwefan · September 2017

Other

Normal.

It’s not even live yet. Calm down.

Derra · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Artis wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

It's not a problem if most players won't use them in pvp anyway.

It´s a problem in the cases where they´re being used. Those are the only cases that matter.

If only 0.2% of all players will have them and not all of them will pvp at all, then the number of those cases is negligible and won't affect the balance much. It might only affect a few certain 1v1 encounters. So nothing to worry about.

If you don´t care about balance it is

By that logic pvp balancing as a whole would be neglible as maybe 5% of the playerbase pvp if at all.

No, that's not that logic at all. I care about balance of course. And that's what I'm saying only few people out of PvPers will have those weapons. That won't be bad balance in cyrodiil at all. Nothing like unkillable tanks or those DKs from 2014 or proc killers or socs etc. It's just a few players with those weapons. There will be a much higher gap between those who have imperfect weapons and those who don't have any of those weapons at all, than between imperfect and perfect weapons. So there really is no problem with perfect weapons.

And no, if maybe 5% of playerbase pvp it doesn't mean that their game shouldn't be balanced. But that's the point - DKs in 2014 were imbalanced, etc. Few people having a bit higher weapons? Chances are most players won't even ever see those players. Besides, everyone can go and get those weapons if they really want. Balance won't be disturbed.

That´s the core issue.
Someone who can´t dedicate enough time in one session can´t especially if they only play during off hours where generally nobody raids.

Even if only one person would run around in pvp with said weapon it would be a problem - because in my opinion the possibility should not exist.
It´s a fundamental problem when approaching pvp and balancing:
Where do you draw the line on what is relevant to be balanced and what is not? When does something become relevant?
For me personally those weapons not being obtainable with reasonable effort for a pvp player is an issue.
Most pvp players i talk to agree.

Imo they should just make the master maelstrom and asylum weapons as: against npcs your skill x does y.

It's not a core issue, it's not an issue at all. It's normal and should be that way. People should have an opportunity to be rewarded more if they can commit more time and complete more difficult content as a result.

If only pvper is running around with a perfect weapon while all others are running around with imperfect weapons - there is no issue at all. The difference between the two is not game breaking . The possibility should absolutely exist. Or should there be no difference and no gear progression? nah. too boring.The corollary of this is that we should make a game less of an MMO and more of a shooter or moba. I disagree and a lot of players disagree. Then what's the point of doing anything if everyone will just have the exact same thing fast?

And these weapons can be obtained with reasonable effort. You just need to complete a vet HM of a mini-trial. It's 1 fight. And to learn it you don't need to spend an hour getting there fighting through trash and other bosses. It's not at all like other trials.

If they changed it to only working in PvE, I wouldn't complain. But I don't think that would be a good idea - they want to make players play both types of content, not just do one, but also try the other one. Or assuming that PvErs put so much time into PvE - then they don't have much PVP experience, so surely that weapon won't make any difference not only on a big scale but also in a single fight against a good PVPer, who can't get that weapon but can PVP. It's even a good thing - it shortens the gap between the two, so that the pvper will have more fun fighting against someone who can fight back a bit, and the rich won't get richer and poor poorer.

People should be rewarded more in the context of the content they´re doing. Especially raiding made a turn to only offer raid based gear (the sets even got changed to not drop in pvp traits). Why was that changed? - People did not want to raid to be competetive in pvp.
Just because it´s not an issue for you you can´t claim it´s not an issue.

Every one of the people i play with has an issue with that kind of system. I have an issue with that system.

If a player with a perfect weapon fights someone with an inperfect weapon and both have the same ability in pressing buttons the perfect weapon wins.
This is an issue.

You can downplay the difference all you want. I´ve tested it. It´s enough to be relevant and that´s quite frankly said all that matters for me personally.

Last but not least: The reason why people like me don´t want to play pve anymore is because zos made it into heavyattacks of boring crapgameplay online.
I have played both types of content. It was entirely fine for me that pve 12 man content only awarded pve relevant gear. I just don´t do it anymore because the gameplay is unenjoyable.

Keeping those weapons exclusive to a certain type of player is btw exactly doing what you claim it would counteract. It makes the rich (high playtime/experience) richer (gearadvantage) and keeps the poor (less playtime/exp) poorer (geardisadvantage).
If your argument has to be based on the assumption of players with different skilllevels to begin - you have no argument.

Yeah no, not an issue for the game. It's your personal issue. You don't need to raid to be competitive. There are no ranks or MMR or anything in pvp. A win or loss doesn't mean anything. You can win most players regardless of weapons. Players don't have same skills. If they do, yes gear will affect, but also race, also class, also it works like that in pve. Never stopped any game devs from keeping it that way.

It's ok. You played both types, you don't enjoy one anymore. So don't play it. It's not like you are supposed to have every single thing in a game on your terms.

Nope, keeping them exclusive isn't doing that. Not making rich richer. Rich = high pvp playtime and experience in this context. Poor - low pvp play time and experience. Giving those weapons to PvE players who are "poor" in pvp is closing the gap. And yeah, I do have an argument, you don't. OF COURSE they have different skill levels, because one of them spends a lot of time in pvp and the other one in pve.

Derra wrote: »

If you´re fine with settling for less than optimal and loosing fights because of that - yeah nobody is forcing you...

If you are not fine, the content is right there. Go and complete it.

So wouldn´t making the weapons more accessible as a logical consequence be "your" problem - and not the games problem?

I bet (don´t even have to - even on pts which has probably more hardcore players than any other forum section the vote is pro easy access) they´d make more people happy if perfect weapons dropped in nonHM instead of having it the other way around

You´re just an elitist that is defending crutch mechanics and timesinks when they seem to provide you with an advantage over players that can already spend less time on the game than you.
Shame.

idk · September 2017

After spending some time in there over several days I'd say the challenge for regular vet is to light for the perfect weapons.

If Zos increases gen Challenge in the last fight when doing each boss solo then it might be worthy to consider.

Artis · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

ToRelax wrote: »

So you... want skill to matter less in PvP. But you also want players being rewarded for investing time into PvE because unlike in PvP, the mad PvE skillz they earn meanwhile aren't enough of a reward.
Could it be that you're just a tiny bit biased towards PvE, I wonder?

Skill won't matter much less in PvP because of 1 items, but yes I absolutely want players being rewarded for investing time into game. PvP players btw are rewarded by having their pvp skill much higher, than pve players.

Not sure what your point is. Isn't pvp for pvp players is all about having interesting and fair fights? Why wouldn't they pvp players to have a bit of a bonus so they aren't just easily destroyed in seconds? Could it be that pvp for you is just about killing other players to feel superiority, I wonder?

Vesper_BR wrote: »

Zos pls don't give advantages to pve players in PvP... It's not fair.

Same here. They won't have advantages. PvPers will have advantages. Because they are more skilled. Isn't the narrative that skill matters more than gear or even class/race? That 1 second advantage won't be more of advantage than an advantage a dunmer mage has over an imperial mage or a sorcerer has over a dk or something.

Derra wrote: »

So wouldn´t making the weapons more accessible as a logical consequence be "your" problem - and not the games problem?

I bet (don´t even have to - even on pts which has probably more hardcore players than any other forum section the vote is pro easy access) they´d make more people happy if perfect weapons dropped in nonHM instead of having it the other way around

You´re just an elitist that is defending crutch mechanics and timesinks when they seem to provide you with an advantage over players that can already spend less time on the game than you.
Shame.

No, it wouldn't be my problem. Would it be game's problem? Idk, I think it would because players won't have incentive to do hm, because there is no real functional reward for it. Why do it if you can get the same thing much easier? I'm not sure why you think effort shouldn't be rewarded.

I'm also not sure why you think insulting people when nobody insulted you is appropriate. Oh I'm that thing? And then you are an entitled snowflake who wants to have everything without putting effort in and is destroying the game by removing motivation for people to play harder content. Which, again, I would play just for fun, but would I find people to go there with if no one needs anything there?

And what advantage exactly would I have if I spent hours per week doing PvE to get those weapons. Are you saying a pvp player like you wouldn't be able to win me just because I have a perfect weapon over his imperfect weapon? (let's not forget that it would mean that I can't have 2 5piece bonuses on front and back bar with a monster set). So what advantage would I have?

Derra · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Artis wrote: »

And what advantage exactly would I have if I spent hours per week doing PvE to get those weapons. Are you saying a pvp player like you wouldn't be able to win me just because I have a perfect weapon over his imperfect weapon? (let's not forget that it would mean that I can't have 2 5piece bonuses on front and back bar with a monster set). So what advantage would I have?

You always imply that there is some sort of miraculous skillgap between pvp and pve players.

I´m both.
If i were to fight myself with the same gear apart from normal and perfect weapon. The perfect weapon me would win. Playerskill is no basis for an argument because it varies.
That´s a problem.

HM has never needed incentive to be run by people interested in running the content. Or Skin + Title was enough incentive. You can choose.
The content itself should be the incentive to run it.

By your logic shouldn´t the best pve gear grop in pvp then (top 2% 30 day campaign only) - because the poor pvp players need help competing on pve leaderboards by better gear?
Also we need incentive for players to play pvp anyways.

What you mean most pve players would find that horrible - being forced into running content they don´t enjoy? Guess what...

Artis · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

Derra wrote: »

You always imply that there is some sort of miraculous skillgap between pvp and pve players.

I´m both.
If i were to fight myself with the same gear apart from normal and perfect weapon. The perfect weapon me would win. Playerskill is no basis for an argument because it varies.
That´s a problem.

HM has never needed incentive to be run by people interested in running the content. Or Skin + Title was enough incentive. You can choose.

By your logic shouldn´t the best pve gear grop in pvp then (top 2% 30 day campaign only) - because the poor pvp players need help competing on pve leaderboards by better gear?
Also we need incentive for players to play pvp anyways.

What you mean most pve players would find that horrible being forced into running content they don´t enjoy? Guess what...

Of course there is a gap, isn't there? Everyone says on forum "l2p" "oh you just got outplayed" "oh if you were skilled enough/skill decides everything".

If you were to fight yourself that 1 second difference wouldn't do much. Especially since status effect aren't applied to shielded targets anyway. And of course player skill IS a basis for the argument. NAMELY because it varies. The situation where players are equally skilled and will act in the same way is virtually impossible because you won't fight yourself, you will fight other players. You didn't answer. What advantage would I have against you? I won't. That's the whole point. A PvE player won't have advantage over you, because he didn't train pvp combos and reflexes.

Pve leaderboards is not the same as pvp. In pvp you kill other players directly. Or you want to say that pve leaderboards are actually pvp because players compete with other players there? I can get behind that. Sure, it's pvp. Then you get those weapons in pvp - just a different pvp mode (kinda like CtF and deathmatch are different modes of BGs). In that case there is no problem whatsoever. You get that gear in pvp, so if it's about competing with other players - go compete on leaderboards and you will definitely get those weapons.

What do you mean content they don't enjoy? They already ARE forced to run pledges and such. And to run cyrodiil to get some skills. And to collect lore books. It doesn't matter. Killing players or killing monsters - same thing. I do both depending on the mood. Why wouldn't an end-game player enjoy PvP? It can be even more fun than PvE unless you get zerged. But you can go to BGs - especially with 3 more friends - and then it's just like another dungeon with the same point: maximize your DPS, maintain buffs, debuffs, CC.

Vaoh · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

idk wrote: »

After spending some time in there over several days I'd say the challenge for regular vet is to light for the perfect weapons.

If Zos increases gen Challenge in the last fight when doing each boss solo then it might be worthy to consider.

@idk Does it feel worth to run Vet at all? The sole reason to run the Asylum on Vet seems like to get characters on the Weekly leaderboard or for Vet HM progression.

Vaoh · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Artis wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

You always imply that there is some sort of miraculous skillgap between pvp and pve players.

I´m both.
If i were to fight myself with the same gear apart from normal and perfect weapon. The perfect weapon me would win. Playerskill is no basis for an argument because it varies.
That´s a problem.

HM has never needed incentive to be run by people interested in running the content. Or Skin + Title was enough incentive. You can choose.

By your logic shouldn´t the best pve gear grop in pvp then (top 2% 30 day campaign only) - because the poor pvp players need help competing on pve leaderboards by better gear?
Also we need incentive for players to play pvp anyways.

What you mean most pve players would find that horrible being forced into running content they don´t enjoy? Guess what...

Of course there is a gap, isn't there? Everyone says on forum "l2p" "oh you just got outplayed" "oh if you were skilled enough/skill decides everything".

If you were to fight yourself that 1 second difference wouldn't do much. Especially since status effect aren't applied to shielded targets anyway. And of course player skill IS a basis for the argument. NAMELY because it varies. The situation where players are equally skilled and will act in the same way is virtually impossible because you won't fight yourself, you will fight other players. You didn't answer. What advantage would I have against you? I won't. That's the whole point. A PvE player won't have advantage over you, because he didn't train pvp combos and reflexes.

Pve leaderboards is not the same as pvp. In pvp you kill other players directly. Or you want to say that pve leaderboards are actually pvp because players compete with other players there? I can get behind that. Sure, it's pvp. Then you get those weapons in pvp - just a different pvp mode (kinda like CtF and deathmatch are different modes of BGs). In that case there is no problem whatsoever. You get that gear in pvp, so if it's about competing with other players - go compete on leaderboards and you will definitely get those weapons.

What do you mean content they don't enjoy? They already ARE forced to run pledges and such. And to run cyrodiil to get some skills. And to collect lore books. It doesn't matter. Killing players or killing monsters - same thing. I do both depending on the mood. Why wouldn't an end-game player enjoy PvP? It can be even more fun than PvE unless you get zerged. But you can go to BGs - especially with 3 more friends - and then it's just like another dungeon with the same point: maximize your DPS, maintain buffs, debuffs, CC.

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Artis · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

Vaoh · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Who cares if only a very small portion of players will get the strongest PvP weapons because there are so few of them anyway....

Anyway we don't agree on it so whatever. Agree to disagree. Either way ZOS is not changing it so that is that.

ToRelax · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

No one ever doubted that... "people here" were PvPers who don't want to invest the necessary time and dedication into raiding that is required for perfect weapons because they don't enjoy it.

ToRelax · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

Artis wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

So you... want skill to matter less in PvP. But you also want players being rewarded for investing time into PvE because unlike in PvP, the mad PvE skillz they earn meanwhile aren't enough of a reward.
Could it be that you're just a tiny bit biased towards PvE, I wonder?

Skill won't matter much less in PvP because of 1 items, but yes I absolutely want players being rewarded for investing time into game. PvP players btw are rewarded by having their pvp skill much higher, than pve players.

Not sure what your point is. Isn't pvp for pvp players is all about having interesting and fair fights? Why wouldn't they pvp players to have a bit of a bonus so they aren't just easily destroyed in seconds? Could it be that pvp for you is just about killing other players to feel superiority, I wonder?

PvE players are being rewarded by having their PvE skill much higher than other players; what's your point?

Yes, PvP is more interesting and enjoyable with as few artificial advantages as possible. Player skill is no such thing; player skill should matter.

Also, chances are that someone able to complete vetAS HM will do quite well if they PvP, just like many good PvP players will do well in PvE. The only hindrance are time and dedication. In this thread, people mentioned how it is easier to invest time into PvP than trials because you don't need a full 12 man group.
Thus, it wouldn't even be the less skilled players using perfect weapons in PvP and you still have no point.

Bowser · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should come from Veteran Hard Mode only.

The poll wording is terrible.

Artis · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

ToRelax wrote: »

No one ever doubted that... "people here" were PvPers who don't want to invest the necessary time and dedication into raiding that is required for perfect weapons because they don't enjoy it.

okay? And I don't want to invest the necessary time and dedication into pvp to get emperorship, or to get caltrops, or into crafting to get vouchers, or into housing to get a cool house that I like, or well into getting gold/money to buy those things. Or into raiding to get perfect weapons, and just want to do something else that I enjoy more. Well, then I guess I'll have to accept the fact that I won't get those things or I can do content that gives those things. But if I can easily get everything, then none of that matters and then players who actually invest a lot of time into anything are not rewarded in any meaningful way.

Just for those players there are imperfect weapons that do the job just fine.

Vaoh wrote: »

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Who cares if only a very small portion of players will get the strongest PvP weapons because there are so few of them anyway....

Anyway we don't agree on it so whatever. Agree to disagree. Either way ZOS is not changing it so that is that.

Exactly. But not having something useful for vet hm, on the other hand, is something a lot of people would care about.

ToRelax · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

Artis wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

No one ever doubted that... "people here" were PvPers who don't want to invest the necessary time and dedication into raiding that is required for perfect weapons because they don't enjoy it.

okay? And I don't want to invest the necessary time and dedication into pvp to get emperorship, or to get caltrops, or into crafting to get vouchers, or into housing to get a cool house that I like, or well into getting gold/money to buy those things. Or into raiding to get perfect weapons, and just want to do something else that I enjoy more. Well, then I guess I'll have to accept the fact that I won't get those things or I can do content that gives those things. But if I can easily get everything, then none of that matters and then players who actually invest a lot of time into anything are not rewarded in any meaningful way.

Just for those players there are imperfect weapons that do the job just fine.

You don't get all the gold you want handed to you for there to be a functioning economy. That's a seperate issue.
If you need to get into housing for a cool house or into crafting for vouchers, everything is fine; it would be a problem if you only got vouchers from trial hardmodes or as PvP leaderboard rewards for example.
Emperorship is, for several years now, purely cosmetic outside of PvP and thus a fitting reward. Which doesn't mean that I like how it is earned, but it's not a reward that is harmful to be locked behind PvP content in general.
Caltrops however, is much closer to the matter at hand. Though it doesn't usually require nearly as much time investment as perfect Asylum weapons and is more accessible to most of the population, it gives a considerable advantage in PvE, despute being rewarded for PvP. Incidentally, it was buffed specifically for the purpose of PvE and I said back then that this is bad for the game. So we agree on that part.
On your conclusion, of course perfect weapons still matter in PvE when they are either reasonably accessible through PvP or have their bonuses disabled there if not. Next?

Artis · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

ToRelax wrote: »

You don't get all the gold you want handed to you for there to be a functioning economy. That's a seperate issue.
If you need to get into housing for a cool house or into crafting for vouchers, everything is fine; it would be a problem if you only got vouchers from trial hardmodes or as PvP leaderboard rewards for example.
Emperorship is, for several years now, purely cosmetic outside of PvP and thus a fitting reward. Which doesn't mean that I like how it is earned, but it's not a reward that is harmful to be locked behind PvP content in general.
Caltrops however, is much closer to the matter at hand. Though it doesn't usually require nearly as much time investment as perfect Asylum weapons and is more accessible to most of the population, it gives a considerable advantage in PvE, despute being rewarded for PvP. Incidentally, it was buffed specifically for the purpose of PvE and I said back then that this is bad for the game. So we agree on that part.
On your conclusion, of course perfect weapons still matter in PvE when they are either reasonably accessible through PvP or have their bonuses disabled there if not. Next?

And you don't need weapons to be handed to you for there to be pvp action. No, the problem is that I don't get vouchers from trial hardmodes, because that's what I want to do. Just like you want to pvp and get stuff rewarded for other content.
Yes, but I want it, but can't get it. If that's not harmful, then you getting a staff whose effect lasts only 1 second less is not harmful either.
But we disagree that it's bad for the game. I actually think that it's good for the game, because it makes me go to cyrodiil and check out pvp. And because I had to go there for different reasons (caltrops, quests, skyshards) I actually saw it and come back to pvp sometimes.
No, they don't. If I can get them without doing vet hm, then why would I do vet hm? Next what? You didn't even parry this.

And, again, there are imperfect weapons that do the job just fine.

ToRelax · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

Artis wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You don't get all the gold you want handed to you for there to be a functioning economy. That's a seperate issue.
If you need to get into housing for a cool house or into crafting for vouchers, everything is fine; it would be a problem if you only got vouchers from trial hardmodes or as PvP leaderboard rewards for example.
Emperorship is, for several years now, purely cosmetic outside of PvP and thus a fitting reward. Which doesn't mean that I like how it is earned, but it's not a reward that is harmful to be locked behind PvP content in general.
Caltrops however, is much closer to the matter at hand. Though it doesn't usually require nearly as much time investment as perfect Asylum weapons and is more accessible to most of the population, it gives a considerable advantage in PvE, despute being rewarded for PvP. Incidentally, it was buffed specifically for the purpose of PvE and I said back then that this is bad for the game. So we agree on that part.
On your conclusion, of course perfect weapons still matter in PvE when they are either reasonably accessible through PvP or have their bonuses disabled there if not. Next?

And you don't need weapons to be handed to you for there to be pvp action. No, the problem is that I don't get vouchers from trial hardmodes, because that's what I want to do. Just like you want to pvp and get stuff rewarded for other content.
Yes, but I want it, but can't get it. If that's not harmful, then you getting a staff whose effect lasts only 1 second less is not harmful either.

Yeah... the PvP action would actually be better if people didn't have to PvE to get the best weapons, I'm pretts sure about that.

Artis wrote: »

But we disagree that it's bad for the game. I actually think that it's good for the game, because it makes me go to cyrodiil and check out pvp. And because I had to go there for different reasons (caltrops, quests, skyshards) I actually saw it and come back to pvp sometimes.

If you think it's good the way it is with Caltrops, please. Just don't bring it up as an argument then; if there's no inconsistency in my own opinion it's not invalid, whatever you may think of it.
Even so, I wouldn't consider the most inaccessible content in the game "checking out PvE"...

Artis wrote: »

No, they don't. If I can get them without doing vet hm, then why would I do vet hm? Next what? You didn't even parry this.

A ) Because there are cosmetic rewards for it, I think at least the skin, maybe something else. Don't remember, don't care.
B ) Because you enjoy the content? You really need PvP gear in order to "check out" vetAS HM and subsequentially enjoy it? >_>

Artis wrote: »

And, again, there are imperfect weapons that do the job just fine.

That's your opinion. Apart from the staff, I tend to agree.

xaraan · September 2017

Best poll ever made? Or Second best poll ever made? Such choices.

How about keep it HM.

The weapons aren't that much better for the smaller % of players that will run to get some crazy benefit from them over others. And as it stands, once you get your skin or whatever reward you pitched, there isn't a reason to run HM again (unless they just want to of course) - this gives them a reason and reward for repeating it.

paulsimonps · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

So will be fun to see what people think about the staff now with the changes we saw to it on ESO Live. Need 2-3 Force Pulse with in 10s of each other to Trigger it but with no cooldown as of now from what the tooltip said.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Metafae wrote: »

Bad poll is bad, there is technically no option for saying should only drop from vet hm, and weekly rewards.
(Which is what it is on pts right now)

There is. The one you picked.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Lets be honest. The less accessable it is, the less usefull it is.

Derra · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Vaoh wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Who cares if only a very small portion of players will get the strongest PvP weapons because there are so few of them anyway....

Anyway we don't agree on it so whatever. Agree to disagree. Either way ZOS is not changing it so that is that.

They´re nerfing the staff into being completely irrelevant for pvp apparently. I´m good with that approach.

Vaoh · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Derra wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Who cares if only a very small portion of players will get the strongest PvP weapons because there are so few of them anyway....

Anyway we don't agree on it so whatever. Agree to disagree. Either way ZOS is not changing it so that is that.

They´re nerfing the staff into being completely irrelevant for pvp apparently. I´m good with that approach.

Yup. There is a catch though....

The version they showed on ESO Live said it would trigger on every Third Force Pulse (and reset in 10sec). However, that was NOT a Perfect Asylum weapon.

There is a chance the Perfect version could be every second Force Pulse, which would be strong in all content. Pretty big difference if this is the case.

paulsimonps · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

Vaoh wrote: »

@Artis

99% of the c

Derra wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Who cares if only a very small portion of players will get the strongest PvP weapons because there are so few of them anyway....

Anyway we don't agree on it so whatever. Agree to disagree. Either way ZOS is not changing it so that is that.

They´re nerfing the staff into being completely irrelevant for pvp apparently. I´m good with that approach.

Yup. There is a catch though....

The version they showed on ESO Live said it would trigger on every Third Force Pulse (and reset in 10sec). However, that was NOT a Perfect Asylum weapon.

There is a chance the Perfect version could be every second Force Pulse, which would be strong in all content. Pretty big difference if this is the case.

Yup Perfect is every 2nd, and that is still really powerful, since you got 10s to do it and doing to quick in a row ain't that bad considering many people still use it as a spammable in PvP Large scale fights.

Derra · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Vaoh wrote: »

@Artis

99% of the c

Derra wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Who cares if only a very small portion of players will get the strongest PvP weapons because there are so few of them anyway....

Anyway we don't agree on it so whatever. Agree to disagree. Either way ZOS is not changing it so that is that.

They´re nerfing the staff into being completely irrelevant for pvp apparently. I´m good with that approach.

Yup. There is a catch though....

The version they showed on ESO Live said it would trigger on every Third Force Pulse (and reset in 10sec). However, that was NOT a Perfect Asylum weapon.

There is a chance the Perfect version could be every second Force Pulse, which would be strong in all content. Pretty big difference if this is the case.

It would be interesting to hear how they´d justify the perfected weapon being 50% stronger.

I think they´d rather go for 12s timer instead of 10. But we will see...

Vaoh · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

paulsimonps wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Artis

99% of the c

Derra wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Who cares if only a very small portion of players will get the strongest PvP weapons because there are so few of them anyway....

Anyway we don't agree on it so whatever. Agree to disagree. Either way ZOS is not changing it so that is that.

They´re nerfing the staff into being completely irrelevant for pvp apparently. I´m good with that approach.

Yup. There is a catch though....

The version they showed on ESO Live said it would trigger on every Third Force Pulse (and reset in 10sec). However, that was NOT a Perfect Asylum weapon.

There is a chance the Perfect version could be every second Force Pulse, which would be strong in all content. Pretty big difference if this is the case.

Yup Perfect is every 2nd, and that is still really powerful, since you got 10s to do it and doing to quick in a row ain't that bad considering many people still use it as a spammable in PvP Large scale fights.

In this case there will be plenty of PvP complaining.... a 1sec difference wasnt very big in the current version of Asylum weapons but this 2v3 casts concept is far more substantial.

Honestly, I'm just mostly sad that the cool new Force Pulse animation won't play on every cast anymore

Derra · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Vaoh wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Artis

99% of the c

Derra wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Oh boy. Let's not compare running daily pledges and collecting lorebooks to beating Asylum Sanctorum on Veteran HM now...

Also the assumption about PvP vs PvE content grinds has always been misguided. The actual "PvPers" stick to playing in Cyrodiil. The actual "PvEers" stick to running endgame content (Vet trials, vDSA, vMSA). No one wants to run pledges to grind Undaunted or collect lorebooks. The Lorebook grind isn't something I'd say anyone could enjoy regardless of play style either lol.

Anyway, many of the people who run raids and are good enough to get Perfect Asylum weapons are really good PvPers as well. Saying that someone who can beat a Vet HM trial simply must be garbage at PvP is totally wrong.

Why wouldn't we? The only criterion mentioned was "content they don't enjoy". I enjoy fighting enemies that fight back, but don't enjoy grind. So end-game pve and pvp are enjoyable, pledges and such are not.

Sure is. But people here were saying that you need to pve like part time job for that. But turns out that you can be a good raid and still have enough time to pvp to be a good pvper? Great, then definitely there is no problem. Let's also not forget that only few people can farm vet hm judging by vmol and vhof hms, so they won't affect the battlefield in any significant way.

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Who cares if only a very small portion of players will get the strongest PvP weapons because there are so few of them anyway....

Anyway we don't agree on it so whatever. Agree to disagree. Either way ZOS is not changing it so that is that.

They´re nerfing the staff into being completely irrelevant for pvp apparently. I´m good with that approach.

Yup. There is a catch though....

The version they showed on ESO Live said it would trigger on every Third Force Pulse (and reset in 10sec). However, that was NOT a Perfect Asylum weapon.

There is a chance the Perfect version could be every second Force Pulse, which would be strong in all content. Pretty big difference if this is the case.

Yup Perfect is every 2nd, and that is still really powerful, since you got 10s to do it and doing to quick in a row ain't that bad considering many people still use it as a spammable in PvP Large scale fights.

In this case there will be plenty of PvP complaining.... a 1sec difference wasnt very big in the current version of Asylum weapons but this 2v3 casts concept is far more substantial.

Honestly, I'm just mostly sad that the cool new Force Pulse animation won't play on every cast anymore

So they made it from a "relatively smal" 25%l difference into perfect weapons being 50% more potent?

Could they atleast follow through and make it the same for every weapon then?

Atleast i won´t have to do writs anymore without sub

Artis · September 2017

Sounds perfectly fine.

ToRelax wrote: »

Yeah... the PvP action would actually be better if people didn't have to PvE to get the best weapons, I'm pretts sure about that.

It wouldn't. It would be the same, nothing would've changed in the big picture.

ToRelax wrote: »

If you think it's good the way it is with Caltrops, please. Just don't bring it up as an argument then; if there's no inconsistency in my own opinion it's not invalid, whatever you may think of it.

valid is not good enough. it has to be sound.

ToRelax wrote: »

Even so, I wouldn't consider the most inaccessible content in the game "checking out PvE"...

Eh, it's not more inaccessible than any other raid. You just need 12 to access it. Actually, I think you can even enter that dungeon solo. And of course it's checking out pve. You didn't think pve is killing mudcrabs that can't fight back, did you? Only the edge counts, not outdated stuff.

ToRelax wrote: »

A ) Because there are cosmetic rewards for it, I think at least the skin, maybe something else. Don't remember, don't care.
B ) Because you enjoy the content? You really need PvP gear in order to "check out" vetAS HM and subsequentially enjoy it? >_>

A) Exactly my point. Not a useful reward. Not improving a character in any way, not making it stronger in any way.

Apply the same to PvPer. Will enjoy PvP with or without a certain piece of gear. Gear is not a prerequisite.

ToRelax wrote: »

That's your opinion. Apart from the staff, I tend to agree.

You can agree or disagree all you want, they will still do the job just fine.

Derra · September 2017

Perfect Asylum weapons should drop from Veteran non-HM

Artis wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

That's your opinion. Apart from the staff, I tend to agree.

You can agree or disagree all you want, they will still do the job just fine.

Not anymore

They just made them 50% better and perfected being the only usable version with that change in pvp. This´ll backfire badly.

Btw i think a good way to incentivize hardmode raiding would be to have trials on HM drop gold jewelry in the following pattern:

Overland: Old 3 craglorn trials.
Normal pledge dungeons: MOL + HOF
DLC dungeons: Asylum