PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Templar

CyrusArya · September 2017

Skander wrote: »

Stamina templar: One of the worse pvp classes you can find. Stamina warden has just everything stamplar has and even more.

Is this really what you believe? I find stamplar to have hands down the strongest damage and offensive pressure in the game. Granted the sustain is awful, as it should be to balance such a powerful class. Id take stamplar over stam warden any day when it comes to dealing damage. Now sustain and tankiness, sure warden has the upper hand. But to say warden has everything stamplar does is a bit of an exaggeration.

Jabs+POTL > Birds+Shalk.

Ashamray · September 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Stamina templar: One of the worse pvp classes you can find. Stamina warden has just everything stamplar has and even more.

Is this really what you believe? I find stamplar to have hands down the strongest damage and offensive pressure in the game. Granted the sustain is awful, as it should be to balance such a powerful class. Id take stamplar over stam warden any day when it comes to dealing damage. Now sustain and tankiness, sure warden has the upper hand. But to say warden has everything stamplar does is a bit of an exaggeration.

Jabs+POTL > Birds+Shalk.

Agreed. Stamplar is far from being bad. That time is in the past now.

Au usual, @Joy_Division 's feedback is accurate about Templar. I can't, really can't understand why devs continue making clunky templarish house things.

Minno · September 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

. @Joy_Division does Eclipse return damage on Cliff Racer?

@Neoauspex

I do not know because I tested it in vMA. In my estimation whether it does or doesn't will not matter.

If I am a Wadren opponent and if I am holding block, have used CC break the previous 7 seconds, or used an immovable potion, then you will not Eclipse me and you will waste 3.5K magicka. If I am eclipsed, I will simply CC break it, enjoy the 7 seconds of CC immunity, and then proceed to spam birds.

I definitely understand your frustration with being bird spammed.

How is the unstable core morph? Does it still apply it's DMG despite the enemy having cc immunity?

If so, the skill is dead and needs to return back to the high DMG burst spell since that had more use in PvP.

Joy_Division · September 2017

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

. @Joy_Division does Eclipse return damage on Cliff Racer?

@Neoauspex

I do not know because I tested it in vMA. In my estimation whether it does or doesn't will not matter.

If I am a Wadren opponent and if I am holding block, have used CC break the previous 7 seconds, or used an immovable potion, then you will not Eclipse me and you will waste 3.5K magicka. If I am eclipsed, I will simply CC break it, enjoy the 7 seconds of CC immunity, and then proceed to spam birds.

I definitely understand your frustration with being bird spammed.

How is the unstable core morph? Does it still apply it's DMG despite the enemy having cc immunity?

If so, the skill is dead and needs to return back to the high DMG burst spell since that had more use in PvP.

I'll have to test that. I'm pretty sure the duration was 5 seconds on both so you'll have to make some adjustments either way.

Minno · September 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

. @Joy_Division does Eclipse return damage on Cliff Racer?

@Neoauspex

I do not know because I tested it in vMA. In my estimation whether it does or doesn't will not matter.

If I am a Wadren opponent and if I am holding block, have used CC break the previous 7 seconds, or used an immovable potion, then you will not Eclipse me and you will waste 3.5K magicka. If I am eclipsed, I will simply CC break it, enjoy the 7 seconds of CC immunity, and then proceed to spam birds.

I definitely understand your frustration with being bird spammed.

How is the unstable core morph? Does it still apply it's DMG despite the enemy having cc immunity?

If so, the skill is dead and needs to return back to the high DMG burst spell since that had more use in PvP.

I'll have to test that. I'm pretty sure the duration was 5 seconds on both so you'll have to make some adjustments either way.

If those 5 seconds mean anything, then I have a feeling I'm going to need to find another burst spell for my build.

Tbh, they probably need to revert Unstable Core back to the 3.5 second pure DMG version that had no cc immunity attached.

Minno · September 2017

Edit:
Tooltip for unstable core is below.

I was able to get in pts tonight. Unstable core is no longer burst compatible. I'm disappointed.
Here's what it currently does on live:

https://youtu.be/bXmv1iWLEqY

Here's a video showing what it does on pts:

https://youtu.be/4Z1FURv2B9U

As you can see, the cc immunity completely denied me the chance to quickly follow up burst. But the utility in denying burst is interesting. But why remove the old version that had a short DMG timer + increase in the DMG in favor for a spell that will do 4k before battlespirit +4k DMG return? That's 2k burst locked behind cc immunity when I was getting 5k burst potential before for no cc immunity.

Here's another video. Ranged attacker test plus Mammoth testing; or lack thereof lol...

https://youtu.be/UlvMOIEMu3I

Conclusion:
Keep unstable core as currently designed on live. No cc immunity, just raw DMG. In fact, increase the DMG a little; we need the extra sources of burst not locked behind a damn cast time/channel. I can't stress this enough, Unstable Core on live is the best version this skill was ever turned into. Pts, it's another utility spell with no bar space to justify slotting.

If the other morph still wants to be utility, give it both a heal, the post DMG after 5 seconds, and have the thorn style DMG component while locked behind cc immunity. Or scrap it.

akl77 · September 2017

Feedback on Templar? Have you tried dps with a Templar? Why is it so weak like a warden dps. Please balance it by buff it up to match sorc or nb.

Minno · September 2017

Bump for my test of the new ability. See my post above @ZOS_GinaBruno

Solariken · September 2017

@Minno I assume you plan to save yourself a skill point and only use rank 1 of Enduring Rays for timing the burst?

Edit:
Also are you able to confirm how the first damage portion scales? I'm guessing it scales on magicka etc which is a huge bummer because it will no longer be useful utility for Stamplars.

maxjapank · September 2017

Reading all the comments about the new Eclipse is saddening. Those who didn't like Total Dark before was mainly because it only reflected ranged. So complaints were made and now the unbreakable part is gone, which was the strength of the spell. The fact that it couldn't reflect birds was an oversight of the devs. Any instant cast ranged ability should've been reflected. Total Dark shut down ranged, was unbreakable, could heal you, and finished with an aoe explosion. I don't know what to say now. Thanks?

IxSTALKERxI · September 2017

Solar Barrage:

This ability no longer snares the caster when they cast it! Amazing! That's a really positive change.

The ability is definitely viable, allowing you to stack quite a lot of aoe damage during a 6 second window. The 1 second cast time feels a little too sluggish though and may turn some people off. Perhaps reduce cast time to 0.5 or remove it altogether.

Overall I think It's an improvement.

Fuxo · September 2017

Now, when another 2 classes got unbreakable/undodgeable CC, can templars get at least a root skill? I would suggest to remove eclipse completely, since devs are out of ideas here and replace it with a unique root skill with magicka/stamina morphs. That would help templar tanks tremendously.

technohic · September 2017

They should add a CC component to Eclipse beyond what it does. Like it goes as is for the target, but then is a fear to targets within 5 meters. "Nearby enemies kneel in fear of righteous retribution ". Would make it at least useful for a little Zerg busting.

Or make a debuff effect that occurs regardless of break free or CC immunity. Maybe it doesn't last any longer than the shield would have but it at least gives you something

Cast time on solar barrage is a no go. Any at all is awful for melee but to then delay the damage 2 seconds is really stupid for essentially a 3 hit DOT. Would be slightly better as a burst ability in one shot but then we're talking a poor mans detonation

danno8 · September 2017

technohic wrote: »

They should add a CC component to Eclipse beyond what it does. Like it goes as is for the target, but then is a fear to targets within 5 meters. "Nearby enemies kneel in fear of righteous retribution ". Would make it at least useful for a little Zerg busting.

Or make a debuff effect that occurs regardless of break free or CC immunity. Maybe it doesn't last any longer than the shield would have but it at least gives you something

Cast time on solar barrage is a no go. Any at all is awful for melee but to then delay the damage 2 seconds is really stupid for essentially a 3 hit DOT. Would be slightly better as a burst ability in one shot but then we're talking a poor mans detonation

The PTS Eclipse has no CC effect at all. I have no idea why they brought back the CC-breakable part of it when all it does is damage at a flat per second/per cast rate.

It doesn't shut down an opponent any more than a standard DoT does.

Minno · September 2017

Solariken wrote: »

@Minno I assume you plan to save yourself a skill point and only use rank 1 of Enduring Rays for timing the burst?

Edit:
Also are you able to confirm how the first damage portion scales? I'm guessing it scales on magicka etc which is a huge bummer because it will no longer be useful utility for Stamplars.

I think you mean eclipse? Not sure enduring Ray's is a spell? Unless they changed the base spell's name (honestly can't remember the patch notes). I didn't test the base spell. I know on live total dark deals more DMG than the base spell, so I expect to have to use another spell for burst (maybe prox det

)

Problem is Unstable Core on live gave you extra dmg before major socery/CP boost(my tooltip on the build editor says it increases it by 3905 DMG with 12% mag boost, sword+master at arms). With how templars gain minor/major sorcery stacks, it was beautiful how you could increase unstable core to help replace monster helm burst allowing you to mix up your sets for better stats.

No one uses the spell in pve, so having it do 1.5k DMG after battlespirit+DMG mitigation in pvp means it's just a waste of mag, when other classes get an easy 12k-15k burst potential in delayed damage for less cost. Even warden's birds do more DMG each hit than this spell on both live/pts, and that can be weaved.

In terms of DMG scaling, I did not test. On live, it scales off the following stats:
- mag/SD at a ratio of 10.50 mag per SD.
- direct master at arms buffs
- sword/fire staff.
But my videos I can see the explosive portion hit for 9k (maybe a crit). But that's after 5 seconds, which violates our previous critique on eclipse being too long to use it for PvP burst/DPS. Afterwards I have to wait longer in order to use it on the same target, making it a utility spell instead of reliable DMG.

UppGRAYxDD · September 2017

Just give Templars blinding light again and remove solar barrage or eclipse completely

Minno · September 2017

Side bar notes:
- based on my videos it appears the DMG at the end of spell doesn't crit as much as the reflected DMG. Both sources can crit.
- because of the mag drain, even if the enemy has cc immunity, the spell loses the chance to be recasted easily.

I'm all for risk/reward design intent. But there's to many risks for 3.3k cost, and I have 3 sources to reduce my spell costs. I can't imagine this spell being used by anyone other than LA Breton Magplars, and even then the DMG is too low on pts for PvP where a thinking enemy is just going to break free before attacking again.

maxjapank · September 2017

Enduring Ray is the passive that increases the duration of Sun Fire, Eclipse, and Nova by +15%, +30%.

Minno · September 2017

maxjapank wrote: »

Enduring Ray is the passive that increases the duration of Sun Fire, Eclipse, and Nova by +15%, +30%.

Ah! Yes I forgot that. (See how unimportant it is lol.)

30% of 5 seconds is 1.5 seconds. So the skill does 6.5 seconds. The original spell was 3.5 and 30% of that was 1 second bringing it a total of 4.5 seconds. Purfying light is 6 seconds, which allowed you to get off an unstable core-ulti burst and then allowed you to follow up with another unstable core cast to keep pressure.

4839 x 6.5 = 31453.5 DMG pve. On paper that looks cool, but remember the duration doesn't matter since the enemy will have broken free or go on defensive blocking/healing before gaining free cc immunity for now Stam cost to them.

danno8 · September 2017

Minno wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Enduring Ray is the passive that increases the duration of Sun Fire, Eclipse, and Nova by +15%, +30%.

Ah! Yes I forgot that. (See how unimportant it is lol.)

30% of 5 seconds is 1.5 seconds. So the skill does 6.5 seconds. The original spell was 3.5 and 30% of that was 1 second bringing it a total of 4.5 seconds. Purfying light is 6 seconds, which allowed you to get off an unstable core-ulti burst and then allowed you to follow up with another unstable core cast to keep pressure.

4839 x 6.5 = 31453.5 DMG pve. On paper that looks cool, but remember the duration doesn't matter since the enemy will have broken free or go on defensive blocking/healing before gaining free cc immunity for now Stam cost to them.

I could be wrong but I don't think enemies in PvE attack at a rate of 1/s like players typically do. You will probably ever only see around half that amount in PvE.

Again though, not having it be useful on CC-immune boss mobs makes the skill pretty pointless. Are you gonna use it on trash mobs?

And of course in PvP the fact that it can be CC-broken makes it a non-starter.

Kilandros · September 2017

I love the idea of the new Solar Barrage, but I question its viability given how long the cast time is. What if it was instant cast, but had a delay leading up to the initial pulse similar to Prox Det?

Minno · September 2017

danno8 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Enduring Ray is the passive that increases the duration of Sun Fire, Eclipse, and Nova by +15%, +30%.

Ah! Yes I forgot that. (See how unimportant it is lol.)

30% of 5 seconds is 1.5 seconds. So the skill does 6.5 seconds. The original spell was 3.5 and 30% of that was 1 second bringing it a total of 4.5 seconds. Purfying light is 6 seconds, which allowed you to get off an unstable core-ulti burst and then allowed you to follow up with another unstable core cast to keep pressure.

4839 x 6.5 = 31453.5 DMG pve. On paper that looks cool, but remember the duration doesn't matter since the enemy will have broken free or go on defensive blocking/healing before gaining free cc immunity for now Stam cost to them.

I could be wrong but I don't think enemies in PvE attack at a rate of 1/s like players typically do. You will probably ever only see around half that amount in PvE.

Again though, not having it be useful on CC-immune boss mobs makes the skill pretty pointless. Are you gonna use it on trash mobs?

And of course in PvP the fact that it can be CC-broken makes it a non-starter.

Yea probably not at the same rate.

The cc break is what kills the spell and the fact it cost mag+doesn't cast on cc immunity enemies (both PvP/pve) is what makes the spell clumsy.

Unstable core on live functions like the spell should.
- I can recast it to reset the timer (even if the mag cost sucks)
- the removal of the cc imunity limitation means I can recast this spell following a topping charge/Dawnbreaker cc.
- 3.5 seconds means faster time to cause DMG. It may not be high like Sorc curse, but it is fast and undodgeable.
- it's animation is hidden. This makes up for the lack of DMG, since it's easy to hid it with other spells+confusion of Battle to make it hit against Templars looking to purge it or players that are blocking(the main counters).
- the higher DMG before buffs means it can be buffed to offset battlespirit. Makes this great burst for PvP applications.

Brutusmax1mus · September 2017

Kilandros wrote: »

I love the idea of the new Solar Barrage, but I question its viability given how long the cast time is. What if it was instant cast, but had a delay leading up to the initial pulse similar to Prox Det?

It has a 2 second delay before it's damage begins.

I think this skill will be great for my jab plar. I just need to know how the dance scales with cp

Neoauspex · September 2017

Just thinking outside the box a bit... if Eclipse no longer actually reflects, it stacks with real reflect skills (Defensive Posture/Spell Wall) right?

Joy_Division · September 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

Just thinking outside the box a bit... if Eclipse no longer actually reflects, it stacks with real reflect skills (Defensive Posture/Spell Wall) right?

It does reflects back direct damage attacks. As far as I know, all projectiles are direct damage as well so not much point in stacking it with Shield Wall.

Minno · September 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Just thinking outside the box a bit... if Eclipse no longer actually reflects, it stacks with real reflect skills (Defensive Posture/Spell Wall) right?

It does reflects back direct damage attacks. As far as I know, all projectiles are direct damage as well so not much point in stacking it with Shield Wall.

I can see the ability being used, then spell wall in between the cc immunity. But why?

I do like @Solariken's idea on changing this to be a DMG oriented beam similar to guard. But doesn't solve the issue that they removed another source of templar quick burst and hid it behind cc immunity/DMG split.

Neoauspex · September 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Just thinking outside the box a bit... if Eclipse no longer actually reflects, it stacks with real reflect skills (Defensive Posture/Spell Wall) right?

It does reflects back direct damage attacks. As far as I know, all projectiles are direct damage as well so not much point in stacking it with Shield Wall.

Gotcha, I was under the assumption from the tooltip posted above that the attacks still hit you, it just returned flat damage when procced by direct damage attacks. I really just need to get on PTS, cursed console players.

Joy_Division · September 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Just thinking outside the box a bit... if Eclipse no longer actually reflects, it stacks with real reflect skills (Defensive Posture/Spell Wall) right?

It does reflects back direct damage attacks. As far as I know, all projectiles are direct damage as well so not much point in stacking it with Shield Wall.

Gotcha, I was under the assumption from the tooltip posted above that the attacks still hit you, it just returned flat damage when procced by direct damage attacks. I really just need to get on PTS, cursed console players.

Nothing you can do there I'm afraid. Actually now that I think about it, Eclipse doesn't technically reflect the actual attack back. What happens is that any direct attack is redirected and changed back at the target such that they always take like 4K magic damage, regardless of what the actual attack was. This is unfortunate, as most of the reflected attacks are probably higher damaging than that (and have accompany status effects, debuffs and the like).

Every fantasy game I ever played had spells, abilities, and powers that functioned like the devs want Eclipse to work, namely if you attack the templar the attacker is basically attacking themselves (or it at least suffering a portion of the damage). I don't think they need to reinvent the wheel here.

Brutusmax1mus · September 2017

I just don't understand how they could think the changes to eclipse made or better?

If it was a self buff causing you to reflect you're OWN spells back at YOURSELF, Was able to be cc broken and granted immunity, if possibly use it so i could plan when i was not cc immune. That idea is idiotic and i still like it better. (Not really, but come tf on zos)

Minno · September 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Neoauspex wrote: »

Just thinking outside the box a bit... if Eclipse no longer actually reflects, it stacks with real reflect skills (Defensive Posture/Spell Wall) right?

It does reflects back direct damage attacks. As far as I know, all projectiles are direct damage as well so not much point in stacking it with Shield Wall.

Gotcha, I was under the assumption from the tooltip posted above that the attacks still hit you, it just returned flat damage when procced by direct damage attacks. I really just need to get on PTS, cursed console players.

Nothing you can do there I'm afraid as far as afraid. Actually now that I think about it, Eclipse doesn't technically reflect the actual attack back. What happens is that any direct attack is redirected and changed back at the target such that they always take like 4K magic damage, regardless of what the actual attack was. This is unfortunate, as most of the reflected attacks are probably higher damaging than that (and have accompany status effects, debuffs and the like).

Every fantasy game I ever played had spells, abilities, and powers that functioned like the devs want Eclipse to work, namely if you attack the templar the attacker is basically attacking themselves (or it at least suffering a portion of the damage). I don't think they need to reinvent the wheel here.

They could turn this into a passive similar to buring light. Where x amount of DMG done with Dawn's wraith will proc minor thorn buff "every direct DMG done against you deals y DMG to the attacker and heals you for z".

That might have issues with players not being able to react to the effect, which is why I think they keep going back to that cc immunity. In this case it could be a zero mag/low mag cost buff similar to elemental drain where your attacks have a chance to do the minor thorns effect.

And then they can keep the unstable core as it is on live, since it's perfect and would give players two distinct flavors for the spell so we wouldn't have everyone running the buff.