When someone says they do a certain amount of damage

Bladerunner1 · August 2017

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

For Stam DPS you can basically subtract 15k from target skelly parses. In a majority of boss fights they spend a lot of time sprinting from one end of the room to the other, then heavy attack weaving to pick up more stamina.

Uh... have you been to a raid with a stamina DPS this patch? More like add 15k to their skeleton parse. lmao

Nah, just describing the other 95% of the game content, where you subtract 15k.

Diminish · August 2017

Nestor wrote: »

I did some testing before the last patch, so the numbers are even higher now. But my base Spell Damage was 2508, self buffed I hit 3000, with group buffs I would range from 3400 to 4700 Spell Damage. So, Group Buffs can have a huge impact on damage out put.

Also, there is Burst Damage. One of my characters a Sorcerer can burst 42K with the right rotation and animation canceling. But for sustained over time, 15K is more typical for her.

Sounds about right. My pet sorc build sustains about 23-25k. Obviously changing skills around I could sure get much higher numbers, but I like to be able to survive, fill multiple roles if I need to, and not need to rely on team composition to finish vet dungeons. If you ask me, anything over 20k is well capable of completing end game content as long as you are not dead on the ground more than you are alive and putting out damage. Remember, a squishy DPS parsing 40k+ dying all the time isn't doing anyone any favors. Not only do you lose their DPS when they die, but one of the DPS that can stay alive need to stop dealing damage to revive him all the time. Sign me up to group with those tanky, self-reliant 20-25k DPS any day.

Nemesis7884 · August 2017

How do you get a target dummy outside of pts?

LadyNalcarya · August 2017

@Nemesis7884 wrote: »

How do you get a target dummy outside of pts?

Craft it (the recipe and one of the ingredients are sold by master writ merchant) or buy it from guild traders. There are very expensive ones, like ~600k gold centurion, but for individual dps tests and practicing rotations you just need the basic dummy ("Target skeleton, humanoid" or something like this).
If you have crowns to spend, theyre also sold in crown menu in housing editor: the stats are the same, but they look a bit diferent.

AbysmalGhul · August 2017

A few people here and there in my guild will often fluff their numbers when discussing builds and rotations. They can slip through the cracks during normal trials, but It's pretty noticeable in Veteran Trial content. We just started testing our guild mate's DPS on a target dummy in my wife's home. It's not to judge or to exclude others from content, it's a tool we use to help people get decent numbers so we can get through veteran content. We want everyone that wants to participate to have a chance of doing so.

I made myself a very easy to use 20K DPS rotation without the use of buffs or weaving light attacks. I feel it is enough for most content. However, If I'm fighting a stationary boss such as Chokethorn, Canonreave Oraneth, or Mad Architect, I'll go ham and use a 35k + rotation to end it quickly.

SoLooney · August 2017

People claiming a certain dps on a target dummy should be taken with a grain of salt. I was in this one guild filled with 300 and 400 cps claiming they could do some absurd dps on a target skeleton, like 45k plus on a dummy. and yes, turns out they had someone proccing their moondancer, wall of shock with high uptime on off balance, providing ele drain, worm.

For me, you should dps parse on your own, aka self buffed, see where you stand.

Another test is if your class doesnt have major breach/fracture, have someone else provide it, also legitimate in my eyes.

If you wanna see how you do with all those buffs such as off balance, combat prayer, spc, alkosh, etc, have your raid team beat up on a centurion dummy, thats what its there for, that is when all your group raid buffs matters. the above shows if you can carry your own weight and is a base

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2017

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

For Stam DPS you can basically subtract 15k from target skelly parses. In a majority of boss fights they spend a lot of time sprinting from one end of the room to the other, then heavy attack weaving to pick up more stamina.

Funny, I dont recall pulling 65K on dummies, yet my stam is always shooting for 50k on bosses. This statement is just nonsense. You either are playing with an absolutely terrible tank or you simply have no idea how to play melee.

AA: Only first boss requires mobility because of mechanics, boss itself is stationary.
Hel Ra: Only Warrior requires mobility.
SO: All boss are effectively stationary
MOL: Twins requires short bursts of movement, but otherwise, bosses are stationary.
VHOF: First two bosses do require movement, last 3 are effectively stationary.

Any of the fights listed are going to impact DPS to some degree for both classes. Magic uses a lot of ground DOTs that must be reapplied when the bosses move, same as stamina. On none of these fights however would you expect to be below your dummy parse in a good raid. Stam single target DPS can easily be 15k above the dummy and total DPS can be 20k+ above the dummy.

Grabmoore · August 2017

If I tell someone my DPS, it's always the number I get solo on a dummy unit, providing ele drain for myself, preferably without shock wall (in case I'd use fire wall in a dungeon) and without puncture, if im on a stam sorc.

Anything else is inflated. A buffed parse would be the first boss vMoL or Sanctum snake non hardmode.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2017

Grabmoore wrote: »

If I tell someone my DPS, it's always the number I get solo on a dummy unit, providing ele drain for myself, preferably without shock wall (in case I'd use fire wall in a dungeon) and without puncture, if im on a stam sorc.

Anything else is inflated. A buffed parse would be the first boss vMoL or Sanctum snake non hardmode.

I think "inflated" is a strong word. Sure, first boss VMOL is one of the highest parsing fights in the game, but that has nothing to do with buffs/debuffs, it has to do with adds. That fight is like hearding cats. Haha

IMO there is nothing wrong with testing with things like Puncture, ele drain, or shock wall, you just need to make the variables known when you claim DPS. "I pulled 38K with someone giving me drain" or "I pulled 35k self buffed". The things you are talking about should always be there in a raid. Nothing wrong with testing in a simulated raid environment, because some builds will scale better with raid buffs than others.

It can also actually be misleading to yourself when trying to make decisions. For example, it is super easy to keep drain up on a magic HA build. It becomes more difficult with a more complicated rotation. You could run your own drain on both fights and say, wow, that's only 2 k different, its barely worth running the complicated rotation. Take Drain away, and it favors the HA build even more because the complicated rotation cant sustain itself. Have someone else run drain for both and you realize that the more complicated rotation really does result in a lot more damage. Obviously just an example, but I do not believe there is anything wrong with trying to simulate a raid environment when you test.

Bladerunner1 · August 2017

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

For Stam DPS you can basically subtract 15k from target skelly parses. In a majority of boss fights they spend a lot of time sprinting from one end of the room to the other, then heavy attack weaving to pick up more stamina.

Funny, I dont recall pulling 65K on dummies, yet my stam is always shooting for 50k on bosses. This statement is just nonsense. You either are playing with an absolutely terrible tank or you simply have no idea how to play melee.

AA: Only first boss requires mobility because of mechanics, boss itself is stationary.
Hel Ra: Only Warrior requires mobility.
SO: All boss are effectively stationary
MOL: Twins requires short bursts of movement, but otherwise, bosses are stationary.
VHOF: First two bosses do require movement, last 3 are effectively stationary.

Any of the fights listed are going to impact DPS to some degree for both classes. Magic uses a lot of ground DOTs that must be reapplied when the bosses move, same as stamina. On none of these fights however would you expect to be below your dummy parse in a good raid. Stam single target DPS can easily be 15k above the dummy and total DPS can be 20k+ above the dummy.

Again, I'm talking about the entire game taken as a whole. What I'm not talking about is those particular bosses in the 5 vet trials that seem to have narrowed your point of view. You're really awesome if you're shooting for 50k DPS on most bosses all over the whole spectrum of the game, you really need to help out the losers who can't manage to do that.

Vet trials runners are freaking out about Stam DPS all of a sudden, where are a numbers on a majority of the game though, where there are teleporting bosses, crowded rooms of adds, where magic ranged pulls higher DPS than stam melee, when boss mechanics force you to chase after things or stay out of AOE. Are you saying you pull 50k in 4 player vet dungeons more often than not?

Horowonnoe · August 2017

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

For Stam DPS you can basically subtract 15k from target skelly parses. In a majority of boss fights they spend a lot of time sprinting from one end of the room to the other, then heavy attack weaving to pick up more stamina.

Funny, I dont recall pulling 65K on dummies, yet my stam is always shooting for 50k on bosses. This statement is just nonsense. You either are playing with an absolutely terrible tank or you simply have no idea how to play melee.

AA: Only first boss requires mobility because of mechanics, boss itself is stationary.
Hel Ra: Only Warrior requires mobility.
SO: All boss are effectively stationary
MOL: Twins requires short bursts of movement, but otherwise, bosses are stationary.
VHOF: First two bosses do require movement, last 3 are effectively stationary.

Any of the fights listed are going to impact DPS to some degree for both classes. Magic uses a lot of ground DOTs that must be reapplied when the bosses move, same as stamina. On none of these fights however would you expect to be below your dummy parse in a good raid. Stam single target DPS can easily be 15k above the dummy and total DPS can be 20k+ above the dummy.

Again, I'm talking about the entire game taken as a whole. What I'm not talking about is those particular bosses in the 5 vet trials that seem to have narrowed your point of view. You're really awesome if you're shooting for 50k DPS on most bosses all over the whole spectrum of the game, you really need to help out the losers who can't manage to do that.

Vet trials runners are freaking out about Stam DPS all of a sudden, where are a numbers on a majority of the game though, where there are teleporting bosses, crowded rooms of adds, where magic ranged pulls higher DPS than stam melee, when boss mechanics force you to chase after things or stay out of AOE. Are you saying you pull 50k in 4 player vet dungeons more often than not?

50k in 4 player vet dungeons is easy to do if you have a good tank and a good healer. I've ran vet dungeons where our group dps is higher than the group dps in some 12man trials runs.

Bladerunner1 · August 2017

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

For Stam DPS you can basically subtract 15k from target skelly parses. In a majority of boss fights they spend a lot of time sprinting from one end of the room to the other, then heavy attack weaving to pick up more stamina.

Funny, I dont recall pulling 65K on dummies, yet my stam is always shooting for 50k on bosses. This statement is just nonsense. You either are playing with an absolutely terrible tank or you simply have no idea how to play melee.

AA: Only first boss requires mobility because of mechanics, boss itself is stationary.
Hel Ra: Only Warrior requires mobility.
SO: All boss are effectively stationary
MOL: Twins requires short bursts of movement, but otherwise, bosses are stationary.
VHOF: First two bosses do require movement, last 3 are effectively stationary.

Any of the fights listed are going to impact DPS to some degree for both classes. Magic uses a lot of ground DOTs that must be reapplied when the bosses move, same as stamina. On none of these fights however would you expect to be below your dummy parse in a good raid. Stam single target DPS can easily be 15k above the dummy and total DPS can be 20k+ above the dummy.

Again, I'm talking about the entire game taken as a whole. What I'm not talking about is those particular bosses in the 5 vet trials that seem to have narrowed your point of view. You're really awesome if you're shooting for 50k DPS on most bosses all over the whole spectrum of the game, you really need to help out the losers who can't manage to do that.

Vet trials runners are freaking out about Stam DPS all of a sudden, where are a numbers on a majority of the game though, where there are teleporting bosses, crowded rooms of adds, where magic ranged pulls higher DPS than stam melee, when boss mechanics force you to chase after things or stay out of AOE. Are you saying you pull 50k in 4 player vet dungeons more often than not?

50k in 4 player vet dungeons is easy to do if you have a good tank and a good healer. I've ran vet dungeons where our group dps is higher than the group dps in some 12man trials runs.

I awesomed that. You mentioned having a good tank to buff the group, I'm working on putting together just such a tank that would buff Stam DPS to do good damage in 4 player content, here's the thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/368025/help-with-sunderflame-tank-build#latest

So far all I'm hearing is "What about buffing mages?" Or "that won't work in trials" etc. If you've got any suggestions I'd love to hear it.

theamazingx · August 2017

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

For Stam DPS you can basically subtract 15k from target skelly parses. In a majority of boss fights they spend a lot of time sprinting from one end of the room to the other, then heavy attack weaving to pick up more stamina.

Funny, I dont recall pulling 65K on dummies, yet my stam is always shooting for 50k on bosses. This statement is just nonsense. You either are playing with an absolutely terrible tank or you simply have no idea how to play melee.

AA: Only first boss requires mobility because of mechanics, boss itself is stationary.
Hel Ra: Only Warrior requires mobility.
SO: All boss are effectively stationary
MOL: Twins requires short bursts of movement, but otherwise, bosses are stationary.
VHOF: First two bosses do require movement, last 3 are effectively stationary.

Any of the fights listed are going to impact DPS to some degree for both classes. Magic uses a lot of ground DOTs that must be reapplied when the bosses move, same as stamina. On none of these fights however would you expect to be below your dummy parse in a good raid. Stam single target DPS can easily be 15k above the dummy and total DPS can be 20k+ above the dummy.

Again, I'm talking about the entire game taken as a whole. What I'm not talking about is those particular bosses in the 5 vet trials that seem to have narrowed your point of view. You're really awesome if you're shooting for 50k DPS on most bosses all over the whole spectrum of the game, you really need to help out the losers who can't manage to do that.

Vet trials runners are freaking out about Stam DPS all of a sudden, where are a numbers on a majority of the game though, where there are teleporting bosses, crowded rooms of adds, where magic ranged pulls higher DPS than stam melee, when boss mechanics force you to chase after things or stay out of AOE. Are you saying you pull 50k in 4 player vet dungeons more often than not?

50k in 4 player vet dungeons is easy to do if you have a good tank and a good healer. I've ran vet dungeons where our group dps is higher than the group dps in some 12man trials runs.

I awesomed that. You mentioned having a good tank to buff the group, I'm working on putting together just such a tank that would buff Stam DPS to do good damage in 4 player content, here's the thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/368025/help-with-sunderflame-tank-build#latest

So far all I'm hearing is "What about buffing mages?" Or "that won't work in trials" etc. If you've got any suggestions I'd love to hear it.

The best you can do for buffing them is Alkosh and horn uptime. Perhaps Powerful Assault procced with vigor. There are stam-specific supporting sets like Nightmothers and Sunderflame, but neither can be procced reliably by a tank.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · August 2017

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Bladerunner1 wrote: »

For Stam DPS you can basically subtract 15k from target skelly parses. In a majority of boss fights they spend a lot of time sprinting from one end of the room to the other, then heavy attack weaving to pick up more stamina.

Funny, I dont recall pulling 65K on dummies, yet my stam is always shooting for 50k on bosses. This statement is just nonsense. You either are playing with an absolutely terrible tank or you simply have no idea how to play melee.

AA: Only first boss requires mobility because of mechanics, boss itself is stationary.
Hel Ra: Only Warrior requires mobility.
SO: All boss are effectively stationary
MOL: Twins requires short bursts of movement, but otherwise, bosses are stationary.
VHOF: First two bosses do require movement, last 3 are effectively stationary.

Any of the fights listed are going to impact DPS to some degree for both classes. Magic uses a lot of ground DOTs that must be reapplied when the bosses move, same as stamina. On none of these fights however would you expect to be below your dummy parse in a good raid. Stam single target DPS can easily be 15k above the dummy and total DPS can be 20k+ above the dummy.

Again, I'm talking about the entire game taken as a whole. What I'm not talking about is those particular bosses in the 5 vet trials that seem to have narrowed your point of view. You're really awesome if you're shooting for 50k DPS on most bosses all over the whole spectrum of the game, you really need to help out the losers who can't manage to do that.

Vet trials runners are freaking out about Stam DPS all of a sudden, where are a numbers on a majority of the game though, where there are teleporting bosses, crowded rooms of adds, where magic ranged pulls higher DPS than stam melee, when boss mechanics force you to chase after things or stay out of AOE. Are you saying you pull 50k in 4 player vet dungeons more often than not?

@Bladerunner1

Can I pull 50k on every 4 man boss in the game? Certainly not. You also have to be careful about whether you are talking about 50k total DPS on a fight or 50k single target DPS. 50K single target is perfectly doable on certain fights, but you really need some support from a full raid to pull it off. Just for fun from the other night (not my best parse on that fight):

You will notice that it's over 50k single, but I did NOT do that alone. I was responsible for sunderflame, but we had another stam DPS running Night Mothers, an off tank running Morag Tong, 2-3 people running Alkosh, a Templar running PotL, and a tank with an infused crusher glyph. You will never get that much support in 4-man content, and you likely wont get it in a pickup trial group. Nobody is pulling 50k single without support. Give me a fight with a lot of adds in 4 man (first boss ICP) and 50k is easy. Give me a fight with more movement and no adds (spider boss in fungal) and 50k is not realistic, at least not for me.

Where I am having trouble with your logic is the notion that ranged DPS are at a huge advantage in terms of damage in a lot of fights over melee. They are certainly at an advantage for survival. While a ranged spammable certainly does help, it is not the end all be all of damage in mobile fights.

Lets compare a mSorc and a sSorc. Both of them will get the most damage from a ground AOE (Liquid Lighting and Endless Hail), so both have the same issue of a boss moving out of their biggest damage source. The same issue exists with Blockade, Caltrops and Trap. A mSorc has the advantage of a ranges spam skill like FP (and frags), but DPSing with just FP/Frags doesnt get you far if the boss is not in your ground AOE. Stamina has two really powerful ST dots that stay on a boss (rending slashes and poison injection), the later being a ranged skill, and both will stay on the boss once they are applied. On a sSorc, I can apply my entire back bar from halfway across the room. In truth, I only need to be in melee range to apply two skills, rending slashes, and rearming trap. Magic will certainly have an easier time of things on mobile fights, but assuming you know the mechanics, a Stamina player can stay on boss nearly as well.

If you are having the experience that the vast majority of 4 man bosses are running all over the place, well you have a really bad tank. As I have said many times, if you have bad support, magic is certainly superior. If you have good support AND know the mechanics, stam will pull more damage in just about every fight in the game, but admittedly, it's tougher to play effectively.

xaraan · August 2017

It's damage per second as most have said. Just don't let it fool you. Most DPS parses are on target dummies (there are specific builds you can run to up DPS on just a dummy fight) or they are cherry picked to show off good DPS. If you start using a dummy, use it to practice for yourself, not to show off numbers. It's a good baseline to know you have a rotation down, but there is more to a good DPS. The best indicator of how well a DPS does is to run content with them. You can not only tell if stuff is dying quickly enough if you've run enough content with different groups, but you'll also know how well they adapt to changes in mechanics (boss moving, red circles, etc).

Dubhliam · August 2017

xaraan wrote: »

It's damage per second as most have said. Just don't let it fool you. Most DPS parses are on target dummies (there are specific builds you can run to up DPS on just a dummy fight) or they are cherry picked to show off good DPS. If you start using a dummy, use it to practice for yourself, not to show off numbers. It's a good baseline to know you have a rotation down, but there is more to a good DPS. The best indicator of how well a DPS does is to run content with them. You can not only tell if stuff is dying quickly enough if you've run enough content with different groups, but you'll also know how well they adapt to changes in mechanics (boss moving, red circles, etc).

This.

I don't care how much DPS somebody has. If they die because hey were reckless at the most crucial time in a boss fight (usually execute phase) then he effectively has less DPs than someone with lesser stats but more brain because those players won't make your group wipe and start the boss fight all over again.