Shadowrend is too lol

Dymence · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So TL:DR.

2x shadowrend
5x amber
5x war maiden

For a dw mag sorc build

Or

2x shadowrend
5x amber
3x willpower
1x Nirn Msa Inferno staff
1x Nirn Master Resto staff?

Easy 50k~ magicka on a normal sorc build with nearly 100% uptime when not in a zerg?

Isn't Necropotence the whole point of running Shadowrend ?

Yup, I guess he's forgetting something.

paulsimonps · August 2017

Ishammael wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I have never heard or seen 5pc necropotence being "overpowered" or too good outside of annoying pet builds in duels. Everyone keeps harbouring this out of some bizarre bias meanwhile the "meta" has been amberplasm for a variety of reasons.

But now that shadowrend suddenly got a buff people are panicking... lol.

It was just a few months ago that people were saying that Curse became overpowered because it exploded a second time after 8 seconds.

Some people suggest replacing the 4000 bonus magicka on Necropotence with the spell power equivalent, but this crops up a different kind of balancing problem. There are no buffs that boost your max magicka, only slotted skills. Major Sorcery would scale the 5 piece beyond what the "equivalent" would be. Throw a 2 piece Kena on to boost it further and you've got a sorc with almost 4k spell power and ~50k magicka.

Necropotence is a set that's intended to empower summoning builds. The problem here is that in ESO a lot of things count as pets when they shouldn't, and also the fact that the set empowers the character rather than the summoning aspect of a build.

It's a niche set that's never been a niche set in the first place.

I guess this is a good way to describe it.

Basically, necropotence outperforms all magicka sets when it is active. It is active 100% on a mWarden, mNB. In general, I see no particular reason why you would ever run any other sets on those classes.

Only the mSorc is forced to make a substantial trade to get it, i.e. pets.

This entire thread is about Shadowrend... Whose entire purpose is to enable Necropotence on spec where it is otherwise unavailable: mDK, mTemp, and mSorc (remove pet requirement).

Its not its entire purpose..... its not like it just procs a pet for the sake of it....

Derra · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I have never heard or seen 5pc necropotence being "overpowered" or too good outside of annoying pet builds in duels. Everyone keeps harbouring this out of some bizarre bias meanwhile the "meta" has been amberplasm for a variety of reasons.

But now that shadowrend suddenly got a buff people are panicking... lol.

It was just a few months ago that people were saying that Curse became overpowered because it exploded a second time after 8 seconds.

Some people suggest replacing the 4000 bonus magicka on Necropotence with the spell power equivalent, but this crops up a different kind of balancing problem. There are no buffs that boost your max magicka, only slotted skills. Major Sorcery would scale the 5 piece beyond what the "equivalent" would be. Throw a 2 piece Kena on to boost it further and you've got a sorc with almost 4k spell power and ~50k magicka.

Necropotence is a set that's intended to empower summoning builds. The problem here is that in ESO a lot of things count as pets when they shouldn't, and also the fact that the set empowers the character rather than the summoning aspect of a build.

It's a niche set that's never been a niche set in the first place.

I guess this is a good way to describe it.

Basically, necropotence outperforms all magicka sets when it is active. It is active 100% on a mWarden, mNB. In general, I see no particular reason why you would ever run any other sets on those classes.

Only the mSorc is forced to make a substantial trade to get it, i.e. pets.

This entire thread is about Shadowrend... Whose entire purpose is to enable Necropotence on spec where it is otherwise unavailable: mDK, mTemp, and mSorc (remove pet requirement).

Its not its entire purpose..... its not like it just procs a pet for the sake of it....

Not anymore on pts. It stands it´s own ground.

Feanor · August 2017

@Ragnaroek93

I disagree on the Sorc part mostly because I have a different perspective. I almost exclusively play on EU PC Sotha Sil. You simply don't encounter the Sorcs with 30k shield stacks in noCP.

First of all, it's much harder to stack max Magicka there, because the free pools from the CP system are missing, which in turn affects % modifiers such as Inner Light or Bound Aegis. It's tougher to get to high Magicka pools if you still want a functional build.

Second, Bastion is missing. That's a huge deal. I still have the firm belief that Bastion is the main culprit, and any balance attempt should start there.

Third, despite noCP damage is not that much less. The average skill does everything from 2 to 6k on a non impen target when it doesn't crit. If your health gets touched you're dead quickly when you have 18k HP.

From my perspective I don't see the issues in noCP at all. Actually you could raise the base shield values for noCP. There are only a handful of Sorcs who are really hard to beat, and these are players who excel on their other classes as well.

TL;DR: I don't really care what is done to Sorcs in CP PvP. I very much care that any change in the fundamental mechanics of shields or their values could push Sorcs over the brink in noCP. They're already not that popular there as people on the forums would make you believe.

@Derra

I don't think any Sorc would reject a sound and honest discussion about shields. The issue is that in these forums nobody seems to see that if you weaken the shields significantly, you'll have to give Sorcs defenses elsewhere. That could be dodging, or a burst heal, or something else. I'd like to keep shields because they are a unique and distinctive class signature. Anything else would be more boring - another burst heal would be just another BoL, and dodging just another shuffle. I think distinctive classes with strengths and weaknesses which are unique are a key factor in the game being fun to play. I'd like to keep that.

Derra · August 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@Derra

I don't think any Sorc would reject a sound and honest discussion about shields. The issue is that in these forums nobody seems to see that if you weaken the shields significantly, you'll have to give Sorcs defenses elsewhere. That could be dodging, or a burst heal, or something else. I'd like to keep shields because they are a unique and distinctive class signature. Anything else would be more boring - another burst heal would be just another BoL, and dodging just another shuffle. I think distinctive classes with strengths and weaknesses which are unique are a key factor in the game being fun to play. I'd like to keep that.

I don´t have anything against shields per se. It´s just that they´re scaling too well or don´t have any limitations for scaling.
They stand on their own as a defense mechanic (essentially because all other defensemechanis interact with one another while shields don´t).

They have to find a point for shields where it´s not possible to be untouchable for magica players in a 1v1 situation.

I´d like to see harness stacking removed while slightly buffing hardened wards base shield but lowering the scaling.

Biro123 · August 2017

Been thinking on this for a while - but @Feanor described it quite well.

They can never properly balance abilities that scale solely on magica with both cp and no-cp - simply because of that 20% stat boost you only get in CP. Especially when most of the attacks it is defending against are based more off spell/wpn damage than they are max mag/stam and so are more effective (in comparison) in no-cp.

Personally, I think the start-point should be to either remove that stat-boost totally - or to also introduce it to no-cp - Only then can balance adjustments made to shields and pet damage that don't automatically make it too weak in one or too strong in the other. (or go to the middle ground where they are both too weak in no-cp and too strong in cp)

Valencer · August 2017

50k max stamina heavy armour stamina DKs spamming the s&b ulti were considered overperforming so stamina DK got nerfed into the ground, while most of the actual issues (overtuned gear and abilities) weren't touched.

Watching mag sorcs debate in this thread really makes one realise that theyre playing a different game at this point. I don't know why the ZOS balance team is being so slow when it comes to max magicka stacking, but my guess is mag sorc is going to eat some unnecessary nerfs, while the problematic gear and abilities are going to get a free pass, just like what happened to sDK.

Just a matter of time at this point. My condolences in advance.

Feanor · August 2017

Well Master Civello, as far as PvP is concerned people will just zerg up even more. Your individual stats don't matter much when you're taking a resource with 70 EP. More people, more fun.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos · August 2017

Valencer wrote: »

50k max stamina heavy armour stamina DKs spamming the s&b ulti were considered overperforming so stamina DK got nerfed into the ground, while most of the actual issues (overtuned gear and abilities) weren't touched.

Watching mag sorcs debate in this thread really makes one realise that theyre playing a different game at this point. I don't know why the ZOS balance team is being so slow when it comes to max magicka stacking, but my guess is mag sorc is going to eat some unnecessary nerfs, while the problematic gear and abilities are going to get a free pass, just like what happened to sDK.

Just a matter of time at this point. My condolences in advance.

Tbh im not sure how they will solve this problem without making profound changes, and that would mean players would have to adapt to some kind of new gameplay - which isnt friendly for new players.

The idea that to base shields on max magica is one of the main problems - stack max magica -> gain high damage and high survivability. the relation between having them both shouldnt be 1:1. An Increase in max magica shouldnt give both. Shadowrend just makes this problem more apparent. Changes like the one you mention about stamina is a different species, imo.

Derra · August 2017

Valencer wrote: »

50k max stamina heavy armour stamina DKs spamming the s&b ulti were considered overperforming so stamina DK got nerfed into the ground, while most of the actual issues (overtuned gear and abilities) weren't touched.

Watching mag sorcs debate in this thread really makes one realise that theyre playing a different game at this point. I don't know why the ZOS balance team is being so slow when it comes to max magicka stacking, but my guess is mag sorc is going to eat some unnecessary nerfs, while the problematic gear and abilities are going to get a free pass, just like what happened to sDK.

Just a matter of time at this point. My condolences in advance.

If they hit maxmag stacking scaling magica returns (harness) - which is basically all they did with maxstamDK i´m fine with that.

They nerfed it to the ground because it gave you unlimited sustain while also having great dmg. I´ve pointed out that the exact mechanic remained in place with harness multiple times when morrowind was on pts.
Nobody cared for some reason.

I don´t think the change to stamDK are comparable though. They gained dmg survivability and sustain for stacking resource.
If you don´t take into account harness you only gain dmg and survivability on stacking max magica.

Subversus · August 2017

@Aelakhaii_De_Mythos easy to solve, make shields not stackable, if you have say a harness on you and put on a healing ward, make it so the healing ward overrides the old one. I have played a 1 shield build on my magblade since I came back in morrowind and it's working fine.

Derra · August 2017

Subversus wrote: »

@Aelakhaii_De_Mythos easy to solve, make shields not stackable, if you have say a harness on you and put on a healing ward, make it so the healing ward overrides the old one. I have played a 1 shield build on my magblade since I came back in morrowind and it's working fine.

Works on magblade/magplar but not on sorc.

Sorc needs healing ward to actually be able to heal. The class can´t heal for jack sh*t and you´re not able to access any healing that would allow to have only one shield active at a time.

Remove harness + hardened stacking.
Or make it that you can only have one shielt but that requires a massive rework to healing ward or sorc healing in general.

I´ve tried a lot but it doesn´t work.

Subversus · August 2017

@Derra I was only using healing ward as well, but I see where you're coming from. I had path, swallow soul, entropy and SA. However, that wouldn't touch the magblade shield stacking...

Valencer · August 2017

I don't see why it's that different.

Max stamina stacking was really good on sDK. More damage and more sustain all in one stat. At first you had to combine various 2-3-4 set piece bonuses of various sets to stack this much max stamina and that forced you to make actual trade-offs in your build to get that high max stamina.
Then they introduced sets like Draugr Hulk and made stacking that much max stamina completely trivial (and without trade-offs) to the point where any scrub can be a champion if he's just willing to spend enough time farming in Direfrost Keep. But I guess that was the point considering ZOS wanted to "raise the floor".

Sure, the benefits of stacking max magicka on a sorc or any shield user are slightly different. Instead of sustain you mostly get more survivability, although harness magicka return does scale off max magicka.
But the way I see it, you'd be stupid not to stack max magicka on a mSorc (unless you want to use amberplasm, which is a ridiculously strong option too) just like you'd be stupid not to stack max stamina on a sDK pre-morrowind.

It just seems like history repeating itself. With this set + necropotence you'll easily be able to get a sustainable 50k max magicka setup with a non-pet build.

Derra · August 2017

Valencer wrote: »

I don't see why it's that different.

Max stamina stacking was really good on sDK. More damage and more sustain all in one stat. At first you had to combine various 2-3-4 set piece bonuses of various sets to stack this much max stamina and that forced you to make actual trade-offs in your build to get that high max stamina.
Then they introduced sets like Draugr Hulk and made stacking that much max stamina completely trivial (and without trade-offs) to the point where any scrub can be a champion if he's just willing to spend enough time farming in Direfrost Keep. But I guess that was the point considering ZOS wanted to "raise the floor".

Sure, the benefits of stacking max magicka on a sorc or any shield user are slightly different. Instead of sustain you mostly get more survivability, although harness magicka return does scale off max magicka.
But the way I see it, you'd be stupid not to stack max magicka on a mSorc (unless you want to use amberplasm, which is a ridiculously strong option too) just like you'd be stupid not to stack max stamina on a sDK pre-morrowind.

It just seems like history repeating itself. With this set + necropotence you'll easily be able to get a sustainable 50k max magicka setup with a non-pet build.

It´s different because outside of harness magica you don´t get sustain from stacking max stat on sorc.

You got survivability on stamDK aswell. It´s not like heals don´t scale with weapondmg/stamina and you were able to focus solely on those stats.

A pure maxmagica build without harness isn´t the eierlegendewollmilchsau stamDK was (for 1v1 they maybe are). They´re hardly even vaible for open world.

Don´t get me wrong i don´t think having necro accessible without pets is desireable. But i think just removing harness stacking would solve a lot of the potential issues.

Derra · August 2017

Subversus wrote: »

@Derra I was only using healing ward as well, but I see where you're coming from. I had path, swallow soul, entropy and SA. However, that wouldn't touch the magblade shield stacking...

I personally don´t feel magblade shieldstacking is as much as an issue as it is on sorc because compared to sorc it´s rediculously expensive.
If you get a magblade to be defensive by pressureing them they´ll run out of magica sooner rather than later.

Btw your magblade build sounds just like what i´m playing. It´s not comparable to sorc at all. My magblade can actually run 5 light without a main shield because it´s that durable (and i´m not even bis race). The offense is also better than on sorc because you can equip the best proccset in the game.
The difference is sorc being more mobile and that´s a huge boon open world.

Valencer · August 2017

Derra wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

I don't see why it's that different.

Max stamina stacking was really good on sDK. More damage and more sustain all in one stat. At first you had to combine various 2-3-4 set piece bonuses of various sets to stack this much max stamina and that forced you to make actual trade-offs in your build to get that high max stamina.
Then they introduced sets like Draugr Hulk and made stacking that much max stamina completely trivial (and without trade-offs) to the point where any scrub can be a champion if he's just willing to spend enough time farming in Direfrost Keep. But I guess that was the point considering ZOS wanted to "raise the floor".

Sure, the benefits of stacking max magicka on a sorc or any shield user are slightly different. Instead of sustain you mostly get more survivability, although harness magicka return does scale off max magicka.
But the way I see it, you'd be stupid not to stack max magicka on a mSorc (unless you want to use amberplasm, which is a ridiculously strong option too) just like you'd be stupid not to stack max stamina on a sDK pre-morrowind.

It just seems like history repeating itself. With this set + necropotence you'll easily be able to get a sustainable 50k max magicka setup with a non-pet build.

It´s different because outside of harness magica you don´t get sustain from stacking max stat on sorc.

You got survivability on stamDK aswell. It´s not like heals don´t scale with weapondmg/stamina and you were able to focus solely on those stats.

A pure maxmagica build without harness isn´t the eierlegendewollmilchsau stamDK was (for 1v1 they maybe are). They´re hardly even vaible for open world.

Don´t get me wrong i don´t think having necro accessible without pets is desireable. But i think just removing harness stacking would solve a lot of the potential issues.

Im well aware my heals scale up with more max stamina too. I get that stamina- and magicka stacking aren't (and weren't) exactly the same thing.

And yet, killing a necropotence pet sorc with 50k max magicka within a reasonable time frame is very unlikely (when youre alone, of course). I'm sure you've fought at least a few of those yourself. Damage shields are enormously powerful when they have a huge magicka pool backing them. For sorcs, the only thing really holding that back right now is the fact that pet builds are really awkward and not very flexible in open world outnumbered PvP (which is a shallow drawback, imo. What if the sorc in question is the one doing the Xv1ing - completely untouchable).

As for shadowrend specifically. After HotR hits, itll basically play the game for people - do significant damage, 100% uptime on minor main, almost 100% (uncounterable) uptime on necropotence for any class. But gear sets and abilities playing the game for people is really nothing new at this point.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos · August 2017

One of the reasons why it is so different compared to stamina is that at a certain point, you cant kill your target unless you burst through the shield and 100% of the targets HP within a 2 sec window - otherwise your opponent can just reapply the shield and slowly get to max HP before you can gain ult enough to make another attempt.
Stamina opponents does not operate like this.

Giving a chance for all mag classes to get massive shields may produce such an environment - just speculating with this though.

Also, with minor maim it will really affect your damage output against these opponents, making it even harder to burst them down.

But like i said, i am speculating here, not sure how this will turn out. Although it seems likely something like this scenario is about to happen.

Edited for misspelling

Derra · August 2017

Valencer wrote: »

And yet, killing a necropotence pet sorc with 50k max magicka within a reasonable time frame is very unlikely (when youre alone, of course). I'm sure you've fought at least a few of those yourself. Damage shields are enormously powerful when they have a huge magicka pool backing them. For sorcs, the only thing really holding that back right now is the fact that pet builds are really awkward and not very flexible in open world outnumbered PvP (which is a shallow drawback, imo. What if the sorc in question is the one doing the Xv1ing - completely untouchable).

The problem is that those builds already work very limited in any grouping environment where the enemy coordinates damage. A petsorc is a good target if you have 2 people already. You can kill 40% of their active skills and make sure they won´t get them back.

That´s exactly the issue. They scale insanely well for 1v1 encounters but their efficiency is deminished with numbers of enemies present.
While i don´t like fighting them myself (solo) i have to admit that those builds have very very clear limitations in almost every regard of pvp that is not a duel.
And that´s the clear difference to DKs.

I agree on shadowrend and necro though i have to say i´d much rather have the synergy remain in the game and instead nerf stacking harness + hardened.

NBrookus · August 2017

Subversus wrote: »

@Aelakhaii_De_Mythos easy to solve, make shields not stackable, if you have say a harness on you and put on a healing ward, make it so the healing ward overrides the old one. I have played a 1 shield build on my magblade since I came back in morrowind and it's working fine.

That would make for horrible gameplay.

Player A casts healing ward; doesn't get it. Instead it goes to a nearby sorc that loses his shield. They both lose out.

I think there is a case for discussing how harness and hardened stack is sorcs get something in return like buffs to Hardened, but we have to leave the other shields out of the equation. Bone Shield, Igneous, Healing Ward, Barrier, Blazing Shield... none of these are an issue when stacked.

Derra · August 2017

NBrookus wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

@Aelakhaii_De_Mythos easy to solve, make shields not stackable, if you have say a harness on you and put on a healing ward, make it so the healing ward overrides the old one. I have played a 1 shield build on my magblade since I came back in morrowind and it's working fine.

That would make for horrible gameplay.

Player A casts healing ward; doesn't get it. Instead it goes to a nearby sorc that loses his shield. They both lose out.

I think there is a case for discussing how harness and hardened stack is sorcs get something in return like buffs to Hardened, but we have to leave the other shields out of the equation. Bone Shield, Igneous, Healing Ward, Barrier, Blazing Shield... none of these are an issue when stacked.

I´d argue healing ward is - in combination with vamp. That issue could be solved by making vamp mitigation only apply to HP though.

CyrusArya · August 2017

The issue with necro is a function of how shields scale in strength. The set not only buffs your damage and sustain (which many sets do magicka or stamina), it also skyrockets the effectiveness of a core defensive mechanic in a ludicrous way. I'd love a set that makes my vigor and dodge rolls stronger to the same degree that necro buffs shields, but such a thing does not exist because the core defensive mechanics of stam builds do not interact with max stats the way shields do with max magicka.

The balance to necro is that it requires a pet. That is how the trade off is designed. Shadow rend should not proc necropotence at all, let alone a super buffed shadow rend that has drastically higher up time, does more damage, and still provides one of the strongest buffs in the game. It's a no brainer.

Malamar1229 · August 2017

Dymence wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

So TL:DR.

2x shadowrend
5x amber
5x war maiden

For a dw mag sorc build

Or

2x shadowrend
5x amber
3x willpower
1x Nirn Msa Inferno staff
1x Nirn Master Resto staff?

Easy 50k~ magicka on a normal sorc build with nearly 100% uptime when not in a zerg?

Isn't Necropotence the whole point of running Shadowrend ?

Yup, I guess he's forgetting something.

2pc shadowrend replaces a 5pc set (Wizards) so long as your not in a 1vX environment.

Derra · August 2017

CyrusArya wrote: »

The issue with necro is a function of how shields scale in strength. The set not only buffs your damage and sustain (which many sets do magicka or stamina), it also skyrockets the effectiveness of a core defensive mechanic in a ludicrous way.

That´s the problem with shieldscaling in general.

It was stupid to scale shields on only maxmagica (especially when the possibility to scale them like normal skills is existant see: healingward scaling on spelldmg and maxmagica).

Heal scaling is different mainly because of how it interacts with block. You can´t scale heals like shields with a defensive mechanic as potent as blocking interacting in the way it does currently.

Lord_Eomer · August 2017

This thread need to close as OP have no real statistics or example but simple started a troll thread!

Derra · August 2017

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

This thread need to close as OP have no real statistics or example but simple started a troll thread!

By that logic you need to be banned from the forums as you provided no constructive reply to the ongoing discussion in this topic.

Lord_Eomer · August 2017

Derra wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

This thread need to close as OP have no real statistics or example but simple started a troll thread!

By that logic you need to be banned from the forums as you provided no constructive reply to the ongoing discussion in this topic.

This tread is just troll and no constructive and what logic i said to be banned?

Not sure why are you soo much feaking out!

If you really think this set overperforming them clearly its a jolk,

OP monster proc sets are Salene and Skoria!

Subversus · August 2017

@NBrookus it's been working for me so far, and I do agree that it's extremely annoying when another stamblade that can't heal takes it. Risks of the job tbh.

Also @derra I agree, it wouldn't work for sorcs. Therefore it should be possible for sorcs to stack hardened on top of healing ward, but not on top of harness. Healing ward is a "finisher" shield, while harness and hardened are arguably in the same category. That would kill lolpotence magblades and solve the infinite resource harness problem sorcs have. Pet sorcs would still be gay 1v1 but you know... baby steps

Feanor · August 2017

It's funny. They closed the Sorc nerf thread just as it was having a good discussion. Sometimes I don't get the moderation on here.

@Derra

Guess I can refrain from posting. You're saying what I wanted to say anyway.

QuebraRegra · August 2017

Emma_Overload wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dude, the "counter play" is to KILL the frickin' thing.

Magicka users have SO FEW good monster sets compared to stamina users, and now you want to nerf one of the few good ones? How about giving us a bunch of proc damage sets like stamblades have been torturing us with for the last year?

Wait, isn't it unkillable? If I remember right you can't even target it.

Wow, really? Every other summon is killable, right? That's amazing if it's true.

NEGATIVE GHOSTRIDER... the NB shadow image is not killable