[balancing issue] A small calculation explaining the imbalance of infused and oblivion damage in pvp

nCats · August 2017

Just how much damage you got to do to compensate for the infused weapon (oblivion glyph) with a sharpened weapon?

If we assume 1800 base damage, the damage over 5 seconds increase from infused is 1800+2*180*3 = 2880 damage (we do one more tick, and we get 30% more damage each tick). Divide it by 5 and get 576 damage per second.

If we assume that 576 is four percent of (battle spirit) damage per second we do on a player (the value which now corresponds to the new sharpened), then what the tooltip of our spammable should be? Assume dizzying swing, the strongest spammable damagewise. If 576 is four percent (after battle spirit), then the dizzying swing tooltip should be 2*(576*100)/4 = 28 800.

In no cp, a 12-13k dizzying tooltip is very respectable. In CP, I had at most 20k on an incredibly damage high build. 28 800 is realistic only in CP and only if you have crits all the time, which is not something a high weapon damage build can afford.

How much damage should oblivion do to be balanced with sharpened? For no CP, if we assume 12k tooltip, 30% crit chance and full impen target, then the effective tooltip is roughly 13k. Reversing the calculations, we get that the oblivion damage should hit for... 800.

All this allows to conclude that in order to balance oblivion damage, it has to be cut, for example by battle spirit. If that does not happen, get infused weapons while they are cheap.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , please pass this to developers as many players do find this disturbing indeed.

Strider_Roshin · August 2017

I'm sorry, but have you heard about the destro ult? Or perhaps Soul Assault?

The aforementioned are horrendous for balance. The Oblivion enchant is fine. It's Torag's pact I'm concerned with.

nCats · August 2017

Read the post, will you? I do not like the mentioned ults, but thats not the topic.

idk · August 2017

I'm confused. First states the weapon is infused and then mentions the weapon has the sharpened trait.

Is it DW and one weapon has the infused trait and other is sharpened?

nCats · August 2017

First I calculate how much you get from one infused weapon (no dw). Then I assumed that my weapon is sharpened and tried to understand how much
dps I need to compensate.

Also, I understand how good of a counter it is against cheese defense builds (and I'm all for counters, I dislike those builds too). But the numbers are like I wrote.

In addition, imagine a mag warden running an infused weapon and weaving dive.

If it gets nerfed, ok, if not I'll slot an infused maul and ok too.

Strider_Roshin · August 2017

nCats wrote: »

Read the post, will you? I do not like the mentioned ults, but thats not the topic.

You think I didn't read it? I realize how strong an infused weapon with the Oblivion enchant is, but is that really so terrible? Quite honestly if it weren't for the fact that it's irresistible a charged poison/fire enchant would be the way to go instead. And in pve a charged weapon with the aforementioned enchant with an infused WD/SD is the way to go. Simply because something is the best for a certain context doesn't necessarily mean it's OP. Now with that said item sets like Torag's pact definitely make it overkill, but that's not an enchant issue; it's an item set issue.

Treat the cause, and not the symptom.

nCats · August 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

nCats wrote: »

Read the post, will you? I do not like the mentioned ults, but thats not the topic.

You think I didn't read it? I realize how strong an infused weapon with the Oblivion enchant is, but is that really so terrible? Quite honestly if it weren't for the fact that it's irresistible a charged poison/fire enchant would be the way to go instead. And in pve a charged weapon with the aforementioned enchant with an infused WD/SD is the way to go. Simply because something is the best for a certain context doesn't necessarily mean it's OP. Now with that said item sets like Torag's pact definitely make it overkill, but that's not an enchant issue; it's an item set issue.

Treat the cause, and not the symptom.

Well I thought the whole idea with the traits was about more balancing between different traits to make them perform the same. It's not happening.

The definition of OP is when something is better than all other possible choices. Well, it is almost the case --- truly, the destro soul cheese benefit from sharpened or nirn more than from infused, but single target-wise there is infused, and then there is the rest. That is over performing, by definition.

If it is a good or a bad thing --- that's an entirely different question. I can speak for numbers, but only live will tell.

idk · August 2017

nCats wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

nCats wrote: »

Read the post, will you? I do not like the mentioned ults, but thats not the topic.

You think I didn't read it? I realize how strong an infused weapon with the Oblivion enchant is, but is that really so terrible? Quite honestly if it weren't for the fact that it's irresistible a charged poison/fire enchant would be the way to go instead. And in pve a charged weapon with the aforementioned enchant with an infused WD/SD is the way to go. Simply because something is the best for a certain context doesn't necessarily mean it's OP. Now with that said item sets like Torag's pact definitely make it overkill, but that's not an enchant issue; it's an item set issue.

Treat the cause, and not the symptom.

Well I thought the whole idea with the traits was about more balancing between different traits to make them perform the same. It's not happening.

The definition of OP is when something is better than all other possible choices. Well, it is almost the case --- truly, the destro soul cheese benefit from sharpened or nirn more than from infused, but single target-wise there is infused, and then there is the rest. That is over performing, by definition.

If it is a good or a bad thing --- that's an entirely different question. I can speak for numbers, but only live will tell.

You looked at one thing, I think since it wasn't clear why dizzy swings was included based in what was said.

Your approach was to limiting.

nCats · August 2017

The approach has its limits, but the only time a stamina class does more damage is when they are ult-dumping. You can include weaves for light attracks, that doesn't change much.

Jeezye · August 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

nCats wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

nCats wrote: »

Read the post, will you? I do not like the mentioned ults, but thats not the topic.

You think I didn't read it? I realize how strong an infused weapon with the Oblivion enchant is, but is that really so terrible? Quite honestly if it weren't for the fact that it's irresistible a charged poison/fire enchant would be the way to go instead. And in pve a charged weapon with the aforementioned enchant with an infused WD/SD is the way to go. Simply because something is the best for a certain context doesn't necessarily mean it's OP. Now with that said item sets like Torag's pact definitely make it overkill, but that's not an enchant issue; it's an item set issue.

Treat the cause, and not the symptom.

Well I thought the whole idea with the traits was about more balancing between different traits to make them perform the same. It's not happening.

The definition of OP is when something is better than all other possible choices. Well, it is almost the case --- truly, the destro soul cheese benefit from sharpened or nirn more than from infused, but single target-wise there is infused, and then there is the rest. That is over performing, by definition.

If it is a good or a bad thing --- that's an entirely different question. I can speak for numbers, but only live will tell.

You looked at one thing, I think since it wasn't clear why dizzy swings was included based in what was said.

Your approach was to limiting.

I don't know what is so limiting about the approach, it had a very clear structure and tried to reference a wrecking blow spammer's single target dps to some1 who just spamms infused oblivion damage on attack weaves. It is astonishing of how strong just a single weapon enchant is gonna be compared to the highest single target spammable attack.

@nCats you did an amazing job imo, hit the nail on the head. Now you just need to get attention lol

RinaldoGandolphi · August 2017

Oblivion Damage is a very poor design.

there should ZERO damage in the game that you can't mitigate, or defend against in some way.

It most certainly should be effected by Battlespirit like every other weapon damaging enchantment is.

Do we really want a game where folks spam light attacks? That needs to be changed before it goes live.

BohnT · August 2017

This is an excellent post.
Oblivion damage may be "balacend" in a 1v1 but in outnumbered fights it's just too strong also you have almost no opportunity cost and you don't have to change anything on your build to make it work.

Full damage setup? You just increased your damage by 1.9k no matter how tanky an enemy is
Heavy Armor troll build? You still deal your flat value even though you have 1k wpn damage and a small stamina / magicka pool

Being outnumbered? The first light attack (lowest damage one enemy can apply) deals x damage + 1.9k, the second deals another x damage + 1.9k, the third deals another x + 1.9k damage
That is a fraction of a second where you eat 5.7k unavoidable damage + skills + light attacks by 3 players.
It doesn't matter if they are full tanks with 80k health or unkillable healbots, they always inflict 1.9k damage if they don't use infused or torugs once they use this the damage goes up to ~10k every. 8 seconds making every heal attempt useless

Waffennacht · August 2017

BohnT wrote: »

This is an excellent post.
Oblivion damage may be "balacend" in a 1v1 but in outnumbered fights it's just too strong also you have almost no opportunity cost and you don't have to change anything on your build to make it work.

Full damage setup? You just increased your damage by 1.9k no matter how tanky an enemy is
Heavy Armor troll build? You still deal your flat value even though you have 1k wpn damage and a small stamina / magicka pool

Being outnumbered? The first light attack (lowest damage one enemy can apply) deals x damage + 1.9k, the second deals another x damage + 1.9k, the third deals another x + 1.9k damage
That is a fraction of a second where you eat 5.7k unavoidable damage + skills + light attacks by 3 players.
It doesn't matter if they are full tanks with 80k health or unkillable healbots, they always inflict 1.9k damage if they don't use infused or torugs once they use this the damage goes up to ~10k every. 8 seconds making every heal attempt useless

Unless they're a Warden.

Trellis pwnz Oblivion Glyph

BohnT · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

This is an excellent post.
Oblivion damage may be "balacend" in a 1v1 but in outnumbered fights it's just too strong also you have almost no opportunity cost and you don't have to change anything on your build to make it work.

Full damage setup? You just increased your damage by 1.9k no matter how tanky an enemy is
Heavy Armor troll build? You still deal your flat value even though you have 1k wpn damage and a small stamina / magicka pool

Being outnumbered? The first light attack (lowest damage one enemy can apply) deals x damage + 1.9k, the second deals another x damage + 1.9k, the third deals another x + 1.9k damage
That is a fraction of a second where you eat 5.7k unavoidable damage + skills + light attacks by 3 players.
It doesn't matter if they are full tanks with 80k health or unkillable healbots, they always inflict 1.9k damage if they don't use infused or torugs once they use this the damage goes up to ~10k every. 8 seconds making every heal attempt useless

Unless they're a Warden.

Trellis pwnz Oblivion Glyph

What is the meaning behind this comment? I know you like to use cheesy things but some still have respect for their enemies and want the better players to win, not the ones who outnumber or use op ***

rafaelcsmaia · August 2017

Oblivion enchants with infused paired with torugs is beyond crazy people. Destro ult and other stuff can be mitigated and shielded, what you gonna do against a full tank build spamming light attack for a whooping 4k damage per sec through your shields? Rip light armor specs in pvp

Waffennacht · August 2017

BohnT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

This is an excellent post.
Oblivion damage may be "balacend" in a 1v1 but in outnumbered fights it's just too strong also you have almost no opportunity cost and you don't have to change anything on your build to make it work.

Full damage setup? You just increased your damage by 1.9k no matter how tanky an enemy is
Heavy Armor troll build? You still deal your flat value even though you have 1k wpn damage and a small stamina / magicka pool

Being outnumbered? The first light attack (lowest damage one enemy can apply) deals x damage + 1.9k, the second deals another x damage + 1.9k, the third deals another x + 1.9k damage
That is a fraction of a second where you eat 5.7k unavoidable damage + skills + light attacks by 3 players.
It doesn't matter if they are full tanks with 80k health or unkillable healbots, they always inflict 1.9k damage if they don't use infused or torugs once they use this the damage goes up to ~10k every. 8 seconds making every heal attempt useless

Unless they're a Warden.

Trellis pwnz Oblivion Glyph

What is the meaning behind this comment? I know you like to use cheesy things but some still have respect for their enemies and want the better players to win, not the ones who outnumber or use op ***

You said no matter their build, which as my other post indicated, just isn't true

Rungar · August 2017

its the only counter in the game to magic shields. To make it work requires specialized equipment in the form of a glyph, weapon and armor set.

I suppose they could change it so oblivion dmg only goes through shields......

rafaelcsmaia · August 2017

Rungar wrote: »

its the only counter in the game to magic shields. To make it work requires specialized equipment in the form of a glyph, weapon and armor set.

I suppose they could change it so oblivion dmg only goes through shields......

I agree its the only counter, however some classes have shields as their unique form of defense, they cant dodge roll, heal or whatnot, having a 1s glyph damage that eats about 20% of their hp and bypasses their defenses, for just a trait and a glyph is overkill

BohnT · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

This is an excellent post.
Oblivion damage may be "balacend" in a 1v1 but in outnumbered fights it's just too strong also you have almost no opportunity cost and you don't have to change anything on your build to make it work.

Full damage setup? You just increased your damage by 1.9k no matter how tanky an enemy is
Heavy Armor troll build? You still deal your flat value even though you have 1k wpn damage and a small stamina / magicka pool

Being outnumbered? The first light attack (lowest damage one enemy can apply) deals x damage + 1.9k, the second deals another x damage + 1.9k, the third deals another x + 1.9k damage
That is a fraction of a second where you eat 5.7k unavoidable damage + skills + light attacks by 3 players.
It doesn't matter if they are full tanks with 80k health or unkillable healbots, they always inflict 1.9k damage if they don't use infused or torugs once they use this the damage goes up to ~10k every. 8 seconds making every heal attempt useless

Unless they're a Warden.

Trellis pwnz Oblivion Glyph

What is the meaning behind this comment? I know you like to use cheesy things but some still have respect for their enemies and want the better players to win, not the ones who outnumber or use op ***

You said no matter their build, which as my other post indicated, just isn't true

Why shouldn't it work on a warden? It's exactly the same for every class. Warden even has strong heals so it can potentially outheal it and kill the opponent

tunepunk · August 2017

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Do we really want a game where folks spam light attacks? That needs to be changed before it goes live.

I have nothing against light attack spamming. I think skill use should be more situational and not meant to be in a rotation. (I think that was one of the reasons they tried to nerf cost reduction, But people switched to heavy attack rotations.)

Use skills for Pressure,
Use skills for burst.
Use skills for AOE
Use skills for CC
Use skills for utility
Use skills for gap close
Use skills defensively
Use skills for heals

But not in a rotation. They should kill rotations altogether, but make skills stronger in general and increase the cost a lot, so you use them in the appropriate situation and not in a god damn rotation.

Biro123 · August 2017

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Oblivion enchants with infused paired with torugs is beyond crazy people. Destro ult and other stuff can be mitigated and shielded, what you gonna do against a full tank build spamming light attack for a whooping 4k damage per sec through your shields? Rip light armor specs in pvp

Spam light attacks back for 4k per second that rips through his block/resists?

Then see who has better heals/avoidance/healthpool.

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2017

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

its the only counter in the game to magic shields. To make it work requires specialized equipment in the form of a glyph, weapon and armor set.

I suppose they could change it so oblivion dmg only goes through shields......

I agree its the only counter, however some classes have shields as their unique form of defense, they cant dodge roll, heal or whatnot, having a 1s glyph damage that eats about 20% of their hp and bypasses their defenses, for just a trait and a glyph is overkill

disagree. the 2 shield based playstyles are nbs and sorcs. nbs have plenty of hots and cloak. they can easily heal through oblivion.

sorc's on the other hand on most builds refuse to slot any type of hot and relie solely on shield stacking + healing ward. oblivion hard counters that playstyle and it should. dont like it? adapt and adjust your build. slot troll king/enginee guardian(prey you get hp proc)/malubeth. Slot resto hot/ult or lingering hp pots. Dark deal more.

If sorcs are crying their triple shield stack builds with pirate skeleton is being countered then boohoo.

Were playing a game that does have rock paper scissors elements to the game. Current sorc's ignore this fact but with oblivion they cant anymore. Counters against them exist.. and its not just shield breaker.

Waffennacht · August 2017

@BohnT Trellis will heal the Oblivion damage while having a shield up.

@GreenSoup2HoT agree with that post 100%

nCats · August 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Were playing a game that does have rock paper scissors elements to the game. Current sorc's ignore this fact but with oblivion they cant anymore. Counters against them exist.. and its not just shield breaker.

It's a sound argument to me, I have to agree. I mean, I run a melee stamina build myself, and stacksorcs and blockplars do seem irritating, and also doing no good to both classes.

My definite concern is with torug's pact then. Those who gonna slot it will be the same lich backbar shieldstackers. But maybe something changes next Monday.

To conclude, there are the following points on which we all can agree on, I guess.

1) Yes, it is strong and other traits are not as good as infused for most scenarios of single target damage.

2) It is not necessarily a bad thing, given that infused + oblivion conuters some playstyles.

2') It could be a bad thing though, because it could reinforce already cheesy playstyles, especially given Torug pact's concerns.

3) The ultimate test is to see it on live server.

Derra · August 2017

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I'm sorry, but have you heard about the destro ult? Or perhaps Soul Assault?

The aforementioned are horrendous for balance. The Oblivion enchant is fine. It's Torag's pact I'm concerned with.

Torugs pact 30% potency 30% cd.
Infused 30% potency 50% cd.

Yeah it´s torugs pact...

It´s oblivion with infused. Torugs pact is just a nice bonus but oblivion + infused will become the new gold standard.

Imo the glyph should not be modified at all by neither infused nor torugs. Or just deleted altogether. Normal dmg glyphs are fine.

rafaelcsmaia · August 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Oblivion enchants with infused paired with torugs is beyond crazy people. Destro ult and other stuff can be mitigated and shielded, what you gonna do against a full tank build spamming light attack for a whooping 4k damage per sec through your shields? Rip light armor specs in pvp

Spam light attacks back for 4k per second that rips through his block/resists?

Then see who has better heals/avoidance/healthpool.

Thats the kind of gameplay I would like to avoid

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

its the only counter in the game to magic shields. To make it work requires specialized equipment in the form of a glyph, weapon and armor set.

I suppose they could change it so oblivion dmg only goes through shields......

I agree its the only counter, however some classes have shields as their unique form of defense, they cant dodge roll, heal or whatnot, having a 1s glyph damage that eats about 20% of their hp and bypasses their defenses, for just a trait and a glyph is overkill

disagree. the 2 shield based playstyles are nbs and sorcs. nbs have plenty of hots and cloak. they can easily heal through oblivion.

sorc's on the other hand on most builds refuse to slot any type of hot and relie solely on shield stacking + healing ward. oblivion hard counters that playstyle and it should. dont like it? adapt and adjust your build. slot troll king/enginee guardian(prey you get hp proc)/malubeth. Slot resto hot/ult or lingering hp pots. Dark deal more.

If sorcs are crying their triple shield stack builds with pirate skeleton is being countered then boohoo.

Were playing a game that does have rock paper scissors elements to the game. Current sorc's ignore this fact but with oblivion they cant anymore. Counters against them exist.. and its not just shield breaker.

I do have a sorc main and i hate having to shield for defense, but have you tried using dark deal or the stupid pet for healing? Good luck trying, its beyond impossible.

This is why iim strongly in favor of damn class change tokens, so i dont have to play like they want me to, id love to switch my main to a more heal based class

Feanor · August 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

its the only counter in the game to magic shields. To make it work requires specialized equipment in the form of a glyph, weapon and armor set.

I suppose they could change it so oblivion dmg only goes through shields......

I agree its the only counter, however some classes have shields as their unique form of defense, they cant dodge roll, heal or whatnot, having a 1s glyph damage that eats about 20% of their hp and bypasses their defenses, for just a trait and a glyph is overkill

disagree. the 2 shield based playstyles are nbs and sorcs. nbs have plenty of hots and cloak. they can easily heal through oblivion.

sorc's on the other hand on most builds refuse to slot any type of hot and relie solely on shield stacking + healing ward. oblivion hard counters that playstyle and it should. dont like it? adapt and adjust your build. slot troll king/enginee guardian(prey you get hp proc)/malubeth. Slot resto hot/ult or lingering hp pots. Dark deal more.

If sorcs are crying their triple shield stack builds with pirate skeleton is being countered then boohoo.

Were playing a game that does have rock paper scissors elements to the game. Current sorc's ignore this fact but with oblivion they cant anymore. Counters against them exist.. and its not just shield breaker.

You know, I'll be totally happy when that oblivion glyph BS pwns your medium Armour every time you just leave a keep and venture into the open. It's gonna be lightning and resto channels simply obliterating you. Your suggestions only show one thing: you never played a Sorc. You seriously suggest Rapid Regen, Dark Conversion, and above all Engine Guardian as counters. You just have no clue, sorry.

Hurika · August 2017

Does anyone think maybe this is a way for them to put more emphasis and value on not running 20k health in PvP? Healing and health pool mitigates this somewhat. You can't perma block, perma shield and ignore your health any more.

Regardless of your armor, it chips away at your health. No one should live forever or be unkillable.

Waffennacht · August 2017

Hurika wrote: »

Does anyone think maybe this is a way for them to put more emphasis and value on not running 20k health in PvP? Healing and health pool mitigates this somewhat. You can't perma block, perma shield and ignore your health any more.

Regardless of your armor, it chips away at your health. No one should live forever or be unkillable.

Any HoT, burst heal, or position can counter the glyph

People are so for nerfing everything:

Oblivion
Shadowrend
Shields
Racer
BoL
EotS
SA
Skoria

Actually... Anything magicka related except selen and viper

code65536 · August 2017

There is something fundamentally wrong with Oblivion Damage in a PvP environment. There is no counterplay. You can't block it. You can't mitigate it. You can't shield it. It ignores Magma Shell, Veil, Mist Form, etc. I can understand this kind of damage being used by enemies in PvE (e.g., it's used to great effect in vHoF to force people to respect certain mechanics), but this kind of damage should not exist in PvP where the key word is counterplay.

Vapirko · August 2017

Oblivion damage is fine, it's torugs pact that's the issue seeing as it's a mag set and there is no stam equivalent. So you're handing a massive boost to unresistable, unblockabale damage unaffected by battle spirit to mag sorcs which already have an edge.