tunepunk wrote: »

So how are you ever going to be good at Vet content if you're not allowed to play vet content even as a cp630 character? Go practice rotations on thunderbugs in overland content?

Like everyone else did? Start with the normal dungeon version? Get a feel for the encounters and the mechanics? Work until you reach like 15k DPS?

The Scenario OP explained was about players who probably could do decent damage before by spamming their highest damage skill, but now they get out of resources too fast since Morrowind. The skill spammer playstyle has been nerfed further increasing the gap between a good player and a bad player, probably due to resource management.

No, the players in question never did decent damage. They just felt that way because they were doing something and told everyone to f*** off when it was pointed out that WB spam or Radiant Destruction at 100% boss hp isn't that efficient to put it mildly.

I'm experiencing the same issues on some of my characters. I used to have no problems with resource management just spamming my my dps skills. I think ZOS wanted to make it harder to reach insane sustained dps. Good players adapt their rotation and playstyle. Bad players run out of Resources and do less damage. I think that change backfired furthering the gap between good and bad players.

That's true, and players pointed that out. Gilliam made a whole video about it. To no avail.

tunepunk wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

With all due respect, and understanding that everyone likes to play differently...there's already a grand whole lot of 10(11 with ultis) skills you can use(out of oh so many skills available). I really don't think the combat must be made any easier than that. What's next, removing all skills and only leaving light/heavy attacks(and buffing them accordingly so the oh so popular light/heavy attack spam becomes more viable in endgame content)?

No but they could try to close the gap a little. I wouldn't mind having single bar, light attack spammers in my Pug if they were actually doing some decent damage. A seasoned player would always do more damage, with a good solid build and rotation, but the gap between a good player and a bad player restricts them from enjoying the same content in PUGS. (We were only talking about pugs here) They get kicked for not doing good enough damage, groups get grumpy for having to carry or kick them.

The gap currently. A bad player has a hard time reaching 10k dps. A good player can pass 30k dps. So I don't mind if Zos made some effort to close that gap a little bit so i could enjoy grouping with less seasoned players.

If you were doing VET trials, there's probably different DPS criteria you would need to meet, and most trial runs are with guilds, not Pugs.

The way to close the gap is teaching people the game, not buffing people who refuse to learn. I strongly disagree with this idea, you're basically saying we should make doing damage easier because people refuse to learn how to do it properly. If solution to people not using backbar is buffing them enough that they don't need it and solution to people not using skills is buffing light attacks enough that light attack spam becomes viable...well, let's say that's not a game I'd want to play.

If people refuse to use backbar that's their choice and that's fine but they should stick to open world and maybe normal dungeons where it's perfectly fine. There's no need to make the game cater to these people.

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For me the game has never been very intuitive and the only way to learn is for someone to teach you or use Google and YouTube. That has always been the case for me on PS4, not sure about other platforms. I have used these, can have all the right skills, food and potions slotted but still have it all turn to crap once the fight starts.

I can never remember rotations, cannot fight and track any buffs/debuffs, forget to reuse my potions, etc., etc. For some reason, in the heat of battle, everything I have tried to learn gets lost and my fingers all turn into thumbs. My DD's also always tend to melt mobs in no time but I have never had great single target damage.

What I am seeing lately in normal dungeons, are DD's with no AoE skills slotted. I am running a new healer through these dungeons for the new trophies and I am seeing DD's doing nothing but light and heavy attacks, killing mobs one target at a time. I end up putting out some HoT's and start assisting with the DPS just to speed things up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVQvefFfgmA

#googleishereforyou

zaria wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

The gap currently. A bad player has a hard time reaching 10k dps. A good player can pass 30k dps. So I don't mind if Zos made some effort to close that gap a little bit so i could enjoy grouping with less seasoned players.

Actually it was ZOS intent to change that with the Morrowind patch ("heaving-the-floor-lowering-the-ceiling"). Why am I not suprized that it didn't work ?

As it was predicted by everybody outside ZOS.
Good players adapted fast, causal players did not, for the light attack brigade it did not affect them.

^ Exactly.

I think they wanted to promote a playstyle that involved using skills more restrictive and more situational. Kind of weaving skills in between your light attacks, instead of weaving light attacks in between your skills. In order for this to work, they need to give some love to the light attack spammers i think. All in all I wouldn't really mind if light attacks were buffed to be more of a substantial part of the overall single target DPS, and skills were more situational but stronger, but I doubt that will ever happen unless they add some kind of recharge timer on skills. People will keep spamming them until they are out of resources.

If you could reach 10k on light attacks, and another 10k using your dot's and buffs on your front bar, and another 10-15 if you utilized some extra skills on your back bar it would be a lot better. Reaching 25-30k is perfectly doable today if you're a good player, but pretty hard if you're not.

I think it should be more easy to to reach 20k sustained without much resource problem, using only one bar, and another 10-15k if you're really pushing it optimizing your rotation and resource management, and utilizing your back bar. That would probably level it out a bit.

@Feanor

Do you have a link to that video?, I'm curious to see it.

Being 630cp does not mean anything. Not even that you properly distribute those points.

So many people do not know that:

• Grobull in Caverns 2 can be harmed when he's down, not while in air.
• The first boss in Vaults of Madness reflects damage to a party member, who usually gets one shot'd.
• You must stay at close range with Tempest's last boss.
• They should clear the rune they have in Banished Cells 2 when they fall down the bubble.
• ...
• Red is bad.

The first thing I check when I PUG is if someone queued both as tan and something else. This person usually gets down in a hit or two during th first trash pull. And probably calls you a noob for not healing him when he gets one shot'd.

Another thing I check is how long it takes to take down the first trash pulls. Being 630cp doesn't mean anything.

code65536 wrote: »

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For a magicka user, it's pretty easy to do. Lay down your Blockade, and other ground DoTs, and just heavy-attack the netchlings with a lightning staff. Tanks are pretty much useless on Grobull. And the damage isn't much, so you can do without a healer--your shields and self-heals will keep you alive, and since you're heavy-attacking the whole time, you'll have plenty of resources to shield as needed. Probably be easiest as either a sorc or magblade for their innate self-heals.

I imagine it'd be much harder to do as stam, though.

(I soloed Vet Darkshade II a number of times pre-One Tamriel, back when it was just known as Vet Darkshade. I haven't tried since the OT update, but it's really just more health and a longer slog.)

I have no issues on my stamblade, reaper's mark and the occasional killer's blade pretty much bring me back to full health whenever I kill trash. Leeching strikes also works, since you're weaving light attacks all the time anyway. Generally run a dual daggers or dagger and axe combo.

MarzAttakz wrote: »

akl77 wrote: »

I agree op, to learn how to dps is difficult in ESO, there's no explanation of rotations, no explanation of weaving, no explanation of aoes. Final fantasy online don't seem to have the problem.

The issue is the relative ease of Overland content barring certain Overland Bosses. Vast majority of quest and/or Delve Bosses are dead within two rotations! Unfortunately this is where most people learn basic mechanics.

As for Dolmen's - I find late night solo sessions a good way to really test your rotations and sustain without the massive jump in difficulty when tackling a world boss. This is for sub-50 and low CP of course. The situation is further exacerbated when the farming groups are active, it's a case of frantically spamming anything AOE in the hopes of hitting something.

Difficulty adjustments need to be made in order to further train people. Quest/Delve Bosses should have their dps left as is but their HP buffed so you use more rotations (and strain your sustain) whilst killing them.

Dolmen scaling needs to be looked at, solo is good enough challenge but when farming trains are present they need to scale much higher in terms of raw HP and DPS - teach consequences by being brutal.

Hopefully at that point when someone does step into a dungeon they would at least have run into a situation where they were resource starved and have learnt to adjust.

TL;DR: Buff Delve/Quest Boss HP; Buff Dolmen Mob HP/DPS scaling higher based on number of players present.

I agree, problem is adjusting it dynamically as people tend to come over time, public dungeon / delves is even harder as people move at different speed so unless boss is farmed its a bit hard, three players leapfrog trough en delve and kill the boss, the level 10 they bypassed now get an buffed boss

And dolmens get buffed with more players, I came to an dolmen just after an server maintenance and it probably shut down while an zerg was on dolmen. Died some times before more players arrived. Yes I probably got all the enemies at once as its not so many enemies even with an large group.

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

The problem is that these dungeons are group content. It's not about newbies or VR vs CP or recovery changes.

The problem is that the guild model in this game makes people feel alone even when they belong to 5 guilds with 400+ members. Shout lfm in a trading guild and you'll be ignored. Maybe people even mute their trading guilds.
In real guilds the members play with each other and teach/help each other.
Good luck finding any such guilds these days.
Grouping tools are not the way for group content. Especially when there isn't a way to group xp people with xp people, and newbies with newbies, in order to each category to achieve their goal of the run.

That makes no sense. Shouting LFM in a trading guild isn't much different than shouting LFM in zone chat. I don't mean to disparage trading guilds (esp. since I am the GM of one), but you gotta realize that people join trading guilds to gain access to a trader stall, not to find dungeon buddies or PvP compatriots. Yes, you'll find some good dungeon and trial runners in trading guilds, but you'll also find newbies too. Just like zone chat, where you'll find some really good players along with some really bad players. Why anyone would expect a trade guild's demographic cross-section to be significantly different than that of zone chat is beyond me.

People have five guild slots. If they decide to fill all five with trading guilds, that their problem. I have a PvE guild, a PvP guild, and a trading guild. I'm not going to ask for price checks in my PvE guild. I'm not going to ask for a Cyrodiil group in my trading guild. I'm not going to ask for a trials group in my PvP guild.

So the question is, why aren't you using one of your many guild slots to be in a PvE guild, dedicated to pledges, trials, etc., with like-minded people who help each other get better at PvE content, instead of lashing out blame at the 5-guild system?

I got a PvE guild. Plus I got inrl friends which I run 4man groups.
How many people in this game have PvE guilds and how many people Pug/complain about Pugs?
Being one out of 400+ members in a guild is not the same as being one out of 50 members in a guild. I find that the amount of people that can join a single ruins the concept of belonging in a guild.
Don't worry about ME using a slot for a PvE. Worry about why people complain about Pugs, elitists, group finder, CP, no CP, Vet, noobs, mechanics, dps, tanking.
Why does do these things occur? Because there are no real guilds and no real guild members who practise/run content together. Again, I'm good, the majority of the people ain't, and that's because of the Guild Model in ESO.
1/50 adds in zone chat for Guild recruitment is for a Trading guild.

The guild model is still irrelevant. Entry-level and mid-range PvE guilds are abundant and not hard to find; you can ask in zone, look in the forums, etc. Yes, trading guilds have more visibility because they have the kiosks and they advertise in zone chat (in order to keep a full roster so that they can have the sales to afford a kiosk), but the kinds of guilds you talk about exist and are abundant.

So what's the problem? The problem is that most people don't even try to find a guild. And that's to be expected: people are casual, most people come from the single-player Elder Scrolls background rather than a MMO background, most people are afraid of what kind of commitment they're getting themselves into by joining a guild. Etc. None of this is the result of ESO's guild model, and changing that model won't change any of this. It is what it is--it's a game belonging to a franchise of single-player games in an era when gaming and MMOs in general are reaching out to broader and thus more casual audiences.

The problem is that ZOS doesn't take into account the kinds of masses are playing the game when they design things like the tutorial (which teaches you how to heavy attack, block, interrupt, and nothing else) or the Undaunted introductory quest (which just tells you to set foot into an entry-level group dungeon with absolutely no guidance on what the hell to do when you get there) or the general learning curve of the game (like making changes that trim away the resource fat and punish everyone who isn't super-efficient, or even little technical details like not telling you how Resistance and Penetration translates into mitigation or how the hell critical rating translates into critical chance). And there is virtually no guidance on guilds or recommendations for players to join certain types of guilds, as if they expect their user base to be familiar with the concept as if they were seasoned MMO players.

I just run ahead, taking every skip till they leave.

Most of the time if I vote kick, there's one guy unable to wrap their head around whats happening

@Vrienda
What stam class are you playing? Alcast or Gilliam the Rogue have very detailed build videos for each update. They go over gear (incl good altnatives), rotations and CP distribution. Even without vMA weapons it should be reasonable to strife for 30k dps. Rotation is probably the most important factor so get your gear right and start perfecting your rotation.

disintegr8 wrote: »

I'd love to see a video of someone soloing Grobul in Vet mode.

For me the game has never been very intuitive and the only way to learn is for someone to teach you or use Google and YouTube. That has always been the case for me on PS4, not sure about other platforms. I have used these, can have all the right skills, food and potions slotted but still have it all turn to crap once the fight starts.

I can never remember rotations, cannot fight and track any buffs/debuffs, forget to reuse my potions, etc., etc. For some reason, in the heat of battle, everything I have tried to learn gets lost and my fingers all turn into thumbs. My DD's also always tend to melt mobs in no time but I have never had great single target damage.

What I am seeing lately in normal dungeons, are DD's with no AoE skills slotted. I am running a new healer through these dungeons for the new trophies and I am seeing DD's doing nothing but light and heavy attacks, killing mobs one target at a time. I end up putting out some HoT's and start assisting with the DPS just to speed things up.

Solo Vet DS2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX2XErTn54g

I think there are a few more out there that are newer vids.

I can't do more than 25k dps on anything, despite max cp, gold gear, vMA weapons (not with best traits), the ability to watch youtube videos and read Alcast's website. So I'm not a "good player".

But in PUGs, I'm still doing 60-80% dps most of the time.

Nerf rotations, add some actual ingame support to keeping up rotations and doing light attack weaving, make it more intuitive, add tutorials. Maybe you wouldn't see more people with 30k dps but at least fewer with 5k...

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

I think one problem is that many people have one or two skills they spam as their DPS skill, only using one bar. I think there's never going to be an end to that. Many people don't even use their back bar.

One problem is, they find builds online that require 2 bar rotation but they don't use it. I myself is pretty lazy so I've made some builds that focuses on doing massive damage on 1 bar. Weapon swapping and keeping buffs and debuffs up seems to be very hard for some people, and I don't blame them. It's hard and takes a lot of practice.

Some solutions would be for ZOS to:

* Add some kind of set that disable back bar, but increase front front bar skills dramatically.
* Or sets that disable back bar but add much more damage to light heavy attacks.

I wouldn't mind sticking to only using one bar, if i had everything covered on that bar. Damage, self heal, some buff, and maybe some AOE. I rarely use back bar anyway unless it's in a longer fight, for dots and buffs.

This^^

The sad part is that cuirass still wouldn't technically prevent the player from failing the content... they would simply lag out from the "zerg" proc, lol.